Ignition Coil Specs
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: Common Questions
Forum Discription: Visit here first for common questions regarding your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16698
Printed Date: November-22-2024 at 11:55am
Topic: Ignition Coil Specs
Posted By: athhud
Subject: Ignition Coil Specs
Date Posted: March-04-2010 at 6:12pm
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How much resistance should the windings of the ignition coil on my '86 PCM 351 have? ------------- Andrew |
Replies:
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-04-2010 at 7:52pm
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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2806&PID=17851&title=high-output-coil - old thread w/ good reading on coils and ignition system resistance ------------- |
Posted By: athhud
Date Posted: March-04-2010 at 8:10pm
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Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any specs for primary and secondary winding resistance... That's what I need! I just want to check that my coil is functioning properly. It's the oem coil attached to the oem points setup. I'm not getting good fire in the distributor. I suspect my batteries are a little low, but while they charge I just wanted to double check everything. ------------- Andrew |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-04-2010 at 8:40pm
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Primary winding, 0.5 - 2 ohms ?? (+ ~1.3 ohm ballast resistor someone else said they had in their 89).
Should be lots of resistnace from primary to secondary ~10,000 ??? ------------- |
Posted By: athhud
Date Posted: March-04-2010 at 9:46pm
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My primary = 1.8 ohms and secondary = 6.61 ohms
I'm running an Echlin Icr23 ballast resistor, so it is 1.3ohms, but I'm just measuring the windings, so the resistor isn't in the circuit.... ------------- Andrew |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 1:04pm
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if the coil isn't shorted then there isn't a problem with it. Also it is not possible to measure the resistance from the primary to the secondary as they are not connected in any way. Also not sure how your coming up with a secondary winding reading on a canister coil to start with. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 2:13pm
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Chris,
I think the primary and secondary windings in a coil share the same negative terminal?  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 2:26pm
kilo scale? If not, that sounds like way too little. 79 knows a lot about ignition systems, but I'm with Pete in that the secondary winding circuit has to be completed somehow... ------------- |
athhud wrote:Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 2:57pm
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sorry boys they are two seperate windings inside of each other with a ferite(sp) core. the primary winding is energized and induction transfer's the charge to the secondary winding and to the plug. There is no physical connection betwwen the two. I'll have to do some checking as this may not be true for a cannister style coil, it's been a long time since those days, it is true for a HEI or coil for a Direct ignition system. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 3:07pm
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Chris,
Do check it out. I actually did a search to find the diagram I posted. I wasn't too sure about how the windings were set up ether!!! Keep in mind that Adrew is checking a older canister style coil. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 3:10pm
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Chris, you have sparked my intrest on this one.
How do they acheive the same funtion with a different wiring connection? Induction is the MAGIC that happens, explain ? Can you teach an old dog some new tricks? ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 3:14pm
What's this?
13.49 on the 20K scale = 13,490 ohms ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 3:35pm
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I don't know about that Doc but here's my BS.
On a modern coil like what is used for a HEI dist. and on a DIS system you have a primary winding, and a secondary winding. The primary uses larger gauge wire and less turns for the coil compared to the secondary so I think we used 14-18 gauge on the primary side and like 41-43 gauge wire in the secondary side of the coil. these two coils are then place inside of one another primary being inside, secondary being outside and then a metal core is placed thru the center of the primary and then around the outside of the secondary, typically refered to as an E-lam as that is the shape of part of metal core which is a series of lam steel stacked up to a set thickness and welded together. The other section of the lamination for the metal core is the I-lam which is welded to the e-lam and creates a gap between the center section of the lamination. The welds are real easy to see on an HEI coil what isn't is the gap, but it's the same basic configuration hei or dis. The primary winding is energzed by 12V's this builds a magnetic field in that coil, the coil colapes transfering the energy through the metal core to the secondary winding which in turn because of the finer gauge wire and additional turns of wire like 100:1 to 400:1 ratio's multiplys the current to an order of 40-50 Kv resulting in the spark at the plug. I believe on the HEI and a canister coil the windings share a common ground so that the plug fires but, on the DIS they do not and the ground is achieveg through the other plug attached to the coil pack, because one cylinder is under compression which, and don't ask me how, drops the resistance and fires that cylinder. clear as mud? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 3:40pm
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HW if that is on the negitive side of the coil then that is the secondary side and about a mile of wire, you shouldn't have any reading across the coil tower and postive terminal if you do then it's shorted. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: athhud
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 4:33pm
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Thanks, Hollywood! I just discovered that my new fluke 88v throws a little "K" on the screen instead of moving the decimal... There is no telling how long it would have taken me to notice that if I wasn't looking for it.
I went out this morning to see if the battery charge solved my problem. I left the multimeter in the house, but by watching the spark I could tell it was still weak. There was no ignition taking place while turning the engine over either. I bypassed the ballast resistor (which should be happening in the solenoid anyway) and instantly got a strong spark. She fired up, I removed my jumper wire, and the engine continued to run smoothly. I switched it off and tried again. The coil is now throwing a strong spark every time... Why would it behave like this? Every connection is sparkling clean and tight! It's like the coil just needed some time to build up its strength.  ------------- Andrew |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 4:42pm
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how old is the condensor? the ballast resistor to? also does the outside of the coil have resistor printed on it? there are only two types of coils resistor and non-resistor, if you have a resistor style coil the ballast resistor is built in and the other ballast resister needs bypassed at the rear of the engine. Measuring the voltage at the coil will also tell you what you have.
hook up the meter to the terminals on the coil set it to read voltage turn key on for a secon read the meter if it reads less than 8V bypass the ballast resistor. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: athhud
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 4:49pm
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The ballast resistor is only about 6 months old. The coil requires an external resistor (it is the original coil). If I remember correctly, I replaced the condenser in 2005, but I'm checking the spark at the coil not at the plugs, so the condenser doesn't fit into the equation. ------------- Andrew |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 4:52pm
wrong ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: athhud
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 5:03pm
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Please educate me. ------------- Andrew |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 5:08pm
Chris, Andrews got the high tension wire pulled off the distributor. The "spark" isn't even getting to the condensor yet! EDIT: Wow! I sure wasn't thinking when I made this statement! Chris, you're correct - the neg. side of the coil goes to the points/condensor. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: athhud
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 5:22pm
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For peace of mind, I just tested the condenser and it is functioning properly ;) ------------- Andrew |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 5:22pm
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what energizes the field in the coil to cause the field to collasp and create that spark at the high tension lead, It doesn't spark just because you hook voltage to it.
Bottom line if you have 9V at the coil terminals with the key on then the ballast is fine if you don't you have to fix the wiring issue. If you have 9V at the coil and are still getting a piss poor spark then you have point and condensor issues or a bad coil end of story. and since it's the orginal coil guess what my money's on. So how far from ground is the lead to cause the spark 4 inches 1 inch half of an inch? because that will change the look of the spark as well. So when you win the 500 with your ignition let me know so we'll have something in common to talk about. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 5:40pm
Andrews just looking for some help troubleshooting his problem. Lets not go backwards here Chris. Andrew, What Ohm readings are you getting off the coil. Did you ever locate the exact specs? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: athhud
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 5:45pm
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I don't know what the 500 is, but I'm pretty sure I'm not competing in it.... I do have blond hair and green eyes. Do we have that in common? Can a bad coil work intermittently.
As for distance between the lead and the ground, I just leave about an 1/8" gap and look at the intensity of the spark. When it was weak, it was a small orange arc. Now it is bright and blue like it is supposed to be. ------------- Andrew |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 5:50pm
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OK step by step
Verify you have atleast 9v at the coil with key on. next get it started use the jumper again if needed. Set the dwell Set timing Adjust carb as needed. if the dwelll isn't right then your not going to get a good spark without extra juice to the coil. So if you can't get it started then use a feller gauge and get the dwell close then refine that setting once it's started so that it's at 20 degress set timing at 6-8 degrees. d*cking with the resistance is a waiste of time the coils either good or it's not end of story the points are either good or not same with the condensor. So if you have the correct voltage at teh coil, the dwell is set correctly and the timing is set correctly and it's not working properly then you have bad parts somewhere within the ignition system BTW INDIANAPOLIS 500 MEMORIAL WEEK-END RING A BELL? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: athhud
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 5:50pm
Pete, thanks for the defense, but my skin is far too thick to have my feelings hurt by an internet meanie... 
I never found the specs, but the readings are the same as I originally posted. (just move the decimal on the secondary reading a few places to the right  ) ------------- Andrew |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 5:55pm
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BTW the spark should jump atleast a half inch.
------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: athhud
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 5:57pm
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Alright, I'm gonna go adjust my idle mixture screws and toss in some smaller jets to keep the fuel from extinguishing my spark. Then I'm gonna close the gap to .009 to make sure it's getting there. Do you think I should use some of those spark plugs with the fancy prongs as well? ------------- Andrew |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 6:03pm
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Andrew,
I don't know about the green eyes but Chris does sort of have blond hair! Right is Chris and left is Billy (boatdr). 
pbrainard@wistool.com ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: athhud
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 6:05pm
Great! I was really afraid that we wouldn't have anything in common and would have to cease communication!  ------------- Andrew |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 6:12pm
Just wait - you may get some comments on leaning out that engine and running split point plugs in it!!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 6:22pm
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your really going down the wrong path with your suggestions.
leave the jets alone. It will not have any effect on the plugs firing. So to test the coil you check for Continuity for the primary winding, pos neg teminals. next check for Continuity for the secondary winding, secondary tower to the neg post. next you check for shorts so if you have Continuity it's shorted. test neg post to secondary tower, check pos post to secondary tower, check neg post to case, pos to case, secondary tower to case, if no Continuity is found no shorts coil has now been tested and is good. next verify you have 9v with key on and measuring across pos and neg terminals of the coil if you don't have at least 9V you have a wiring issue. Also the starter relay does not bypass the ballast resistor and feed 12V to the coil during starting it's not a car it's a boat and why only one terminal is used on the relay. Crock of dung if you think otherwise. next step is seting the point gap with a feller gauge to get you close to the proper dwell angle. next you have to start the engine and set the dwell if you don't have a dwell meter then you don't need to be using points to start with and need to upgrade the system to electronic. Next you set timing. next you adjust the carb's idle next you recheck the timing since you just lowered the rpm and changed it. repeat idle and timing adjustments until they are both correct. Now go enjoy your boat. If it doesn't run right you have a bad coil, points or condensor or all of the above. Checking for resistance does nothing and is a huge wasite of time unless you are fine tuning a high perfromance engine and want the max out of the ignition system and since most don't even know what changing the resistance of the coil does it's better left alone. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: athhud
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 7:39pm
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Not up to speed on sarcasm are we?
My solenoid does bypass the ballast resistor, while starting, because I wired it to do so. Why do you keep assuming that the engine isn't running properly? I can assure you that every thing is in spec, because I have personally tuned every part of the engine myself. By the way, the handy little fluke 88v can be used to measure dwell (you just have to run a quick calculation in your noggin )
------------- Andrew |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 8:06pm
Indmar's are wired to bypass on start and PCM's aren't!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 8:40pm
Chris on this one you are wrong, Pete you are half correct.PCM now has a wiring diagram that uses the "R" term to supply a full 12 volts during cranking. There is a improvement in starting by using the "R" term even on a electronic ignition.Took PCM several years to adopt this practice again. Ignition upgrades will include, dizzy, ballast, coil , protection module and a new solenoid with "R" term.If you think that EI gives a hot spark at start allow the solenoid to bust that coil with a full 12 volts.........BIG BLUE ARC...........1" or more gap........... ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: athhud
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 8:54pm
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Makes a cold start so much mo betta! ------------- Andrew |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: March-05-2010 at 9:44pm
I would like to know the values of nominal vs jumped. I would guess 25 to 30 percent hotter spark........ Just did another in the shop a couple of weeks ago.Instant start after heat soak was biggest improvement.1976 SN w/PCM 351 less than 300hrs. Boat stock and unmolested, It came with the jumper wire taped into the harness and a 3 wire solenoid. After the dizzy upgrade it still did not crank as easy as Karen's stroker, amazing what a simple solenoid change with the addition of that wire will make........ ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: athhud
Date Posted: March-06-2010 at 4:34am
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Yeah, last year my neighbor was talking up his new electronic ignition system at the ramp. He insisted that I get one. After my '86 with points fired up on the first try, after sitting up all winter, he didn't think his new ignition system was so hot... With the jumper wire and properly maintained points, it is hard to justify an electronic ignition. ------------- Andrew |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: March-06-2010 at 4:54am
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WRONG There is no substitute for HI VOLTAGE.....The points will be fine,just saying there are just better ways to spark that plug.
1949 CC Dart original points and condenser,the 61 year old spark plugs looked good, but changed them along with the plug wires.Plug gap is .025, basic 1940 technology. We live in the modern electronic age, bring the old girl up to speed.The idle change is worth the investment. ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: athhud
Date Posted: March-06-2010 at 5:29am
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If it ain't broke, don't fix it... Until this little glitch, I have never had a single problem with points ignition. I don't have any experience with EI in the marine environment, but I haven't read any stellar reviews that warrant confidence. ------------- Andrew |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: March-06-2010 at 11:05am
sounds like an update for the older boats and not OE unless it's a late model PCM ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-06-2010 at 11:30am
Andrew, There's some threads where I've talked about going 28 years on a point set without problems! I've preached the issue of keeping the point set quite a few times vs: going with a conversion module. I really feel the conversions are marketed/pushed on people as one of those "should have" items but really shouldn't! They are nothing but "bling"!!! Something goes out with the module out in the lake and unless you have a spare, you're stuck. With a point set, you can always clean them up to make it back. Performance gains are none for a conversion. Starting maybe but a tuned up boat does wonders too!!! If someone really wants to dump the points, then the only way to go is with the complete distributor conversion. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-06-2010 at 11:31am
Both as I have learned. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: athhud
Date Posted: March-06-2010 at 4:52pm
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I completely agree Pete! My soldering iron doesn't work in the middle of the lake, but my flat head screw driver, fine file, and feeler gauges do! ------------- Andrew |
Posted By: Dank
Date Posted: April-10-2010 at 1:02am
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I'm having a very similar problem...79 makes the direct statement that you should have @ least 9V @ the coil. I do not...I only have 6. What should the voltages be on each side of the ballast resistor? 12 and 9? I am seeing 10 and 6. ------------- "I don't know what the world may need, but a http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=886&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - V8 engine's a good start for me" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-10-2010 at 10:02am
Check the voltage at the battery first. A good fully charged battery will have about 12.5 volts. If that's good, check what voltage you get on the ignition switch side of the ballast resistor. It should be real close to the battery voltage. If lower, go back to the ignition switch and check the "bat" terminal. That too should be close to the battery voltage. Keep tracing/checking volts all the way back to the battery. You're looking for a resistance causing a voltage drop caused by a bad connection. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |