Health care
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Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: Off Topic
Forum Discription: Anything non-Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16734
Printed Date: June-18-2024 at 10:04am
Topic: Health care
Posted By: Waterdog
Subject: Health care
Date Posted: March-08-2010 at 10:39am
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Let me get this straight......we're trying to pass a health care plan written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that hasn't read it but exempts themselves from it, to be signed by a president that also hasn't read it and who smokes, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke.
What the hell could possibly go wrong???? ------------- - waterdog - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3896&sort=&pagenum=2&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978" rel="nofollow - 78 Ski Tique |
Replies:
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: March-08-2010 at 12:24pm
And here I thought these Kafka-like stories could only happen in our country...  ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: March-08-2010 at 12:54pm
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Andy,
No kidding huh? Brilliant plan isn't it? ;-) Kristof, Does your country have "socialized" health care? |
Posted By: tullfooter
Date Posted: March-08-2010 at 2:24pm
I really like the fact that Obama stated that we "need" to pass something quickly, even if it is only partially done. Basically, the government wants control, and then they will start to work on improving the program. Sounds like a perfect plan to me. In 15 years or so, when I retire, I'll just supplement my health care with my social security.  ------------- Play hard, life's not a trial run. '85 BFN '90 BFN White Lake, Michigan |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-08-2010 at 2:27pm
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"regulated healthcare is the correct word" ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: March-08-2010 at 3:09pm
Yes Andy, we do. But we have this since decades, and it also took decades to get where we are now. Don't think this is something you boys are gonna do in a flash... And, it will get worse before it gets better. It's a long term project, because there's a mentality change needed first... ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Okie Boarder wrote:Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: March-08-2010 at 3:30pm
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So, how is the care?
What do you pay in taxes? Would you rather have private like we do? |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: March-08-2010 at 6:59pm
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I don't think so. Okay, MHO, if you're young and fit, no problem in getting medical insurance. But, for people that are a little older or have any kind of medical condition, I think they have to pay top dollar or even get excluded for certain conditions.
Mind you, we also have extra hospitalisation insurance, and they are private, so they have these exclusions or extremely high rates. But, the socialized health care allows everybody to at least get the basic medical attention for "free" (and that medical attention is quite good)... On average 45% of my gross earnings is going to taxes. Funny thing is, biggest chunk out of the federal budget here is going to the Defence and health care department. ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: March-08-2010 at 7:10pm
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When you say 45% to gross earnings, is that only for Federal Income tax?
Do you also have sales taxes? Property taxes? Other taxes? |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: March-08-2010 at 7:23pm
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Yes it is and yes we do.
We have for example value added tax or VAT, road tax (the bigger your car, the more you pay ), diesel tax, community tax (different from town to town), waste collecting tax, tax on pollution of surface waters (lakes, rivers,...)combined with sewage, property tax, province tax,...
Another example is a tax included in the sales price of each electrical appliance, called "recupbel", for the recycling costs. Or, a tax on packaging materials that are not environmentally friendly. ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: March-08-2010 at 7:29pm
Oh and BTW, my net income is 1687,57 euro a month (2318,48 $), and all these taxes still have to come off of that  ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: March-08-2010 at 7:36pm
| So, would you rather pay all those taxes and provide all the "free" social programs or not have to pay the taxes and let people survive on their own with private services? |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: March-08-2010 at 7:44pm
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Well, I'm not always happy with it, but I kinda do like our system...
I've got a pretty steady job and my wife has a good business, but our system still provides us with an anchor just in case of the "what if...?"-situation... ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: tullfooter
Date Posted: March-08-2010 at 8:14pm
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I'm assuming your wife knocks down some decent cash, and cost of living is quite different over there. Because with my calculations, your $28K per year would not allow you to be rockin that sweet Nautique, or drinking those fine Belgian beers.
Wait, I figured it out. You eat, sleep, and work in your one room bath tub. ------------- Play hard, life's not a trial run. '85 BFN '90 BFN White Lake, Michigan |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: March-08-2010 at 8:18pm
Wow Tull, you hit the nail on the head straight away... Man, you're good!! ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: March-08-2010 at 8:24pm
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We have a small appartment and Chantal has a good business. Also, we don't have children... That's why we can enjoy our sweet Nautique...
I think you can count the boat owners among my army colleagues across the country on one hand  ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-09-2010 at 10:23am
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would that be called living within your means? and he drives a diesel!! ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Kristof
Date Posted: March-09-2010 at 3:21pm
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Yeah, and fuel prices are about three times higher here too Eric...
Djeez, the more I think about this, the more I wanna get a green card, join the US army and move to FLorida... Sun, lakes, boats and cheap gas too... 
BTW Eric, I'm considering selling the Beamer and buying a Ford F150... More practical for towing the boat and a cool truck too. How did this happen you ask? Well you told us to "buy American" quite a few times on this site LOL... Oh well, it's just considering, nothing planned yet. I do like the BMW very much... ------------- - Gun control means: using BOTH hands! - Money doesn't make one happy, but when it rains cats and dogs, it's still better to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle... |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 10:25am
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Kristoff, show a big presence in the Middle East and your gas would be cheap too,
BTW, something big happened yesterday and im ready to roll on this one, 12 hours invested in watching C-Span ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 75 stang
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 11:39am
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I feel my tax rate going up, guess i'll keep the 75 a few more years... ------------- Take your work seriously, not yourself. http://s133.photobucket.com/albums/q70/Bigblockbandit/Lake%20and%20boats/ - Boat Pics |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 12:53pm
| I'm interested to see what happens in the senate, then also what happens in November. |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 1:18pm
Sure, if your making over 200K a year or 250K for a married couple. Fact is most people who are currently given health care benefits by their employer won't even notice a change. Perhaps you may be interested in checking out the non-partisan, non-profit, website FactCheck.org. ------------- |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 1:48pm
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Or if you are a small business that makes that type of money.
The other aspect that is overlooked, besides taxation, is price increases. The insurance companies are being dictated to in this bill regarding denying coverage and capping costs. Those will be passed along to the subscribers and rates will go up. Contrary to many folks' belief, health care is not a right, in the sense of natural rights our Constitution spelled out. You could say it is perceived as a right and is being provided by the government. Any "right" provided by government can be taken away just as easily as it was given. |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 2:37pm
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normally compettiton brings the price down, when your the only game in town you can name your price, just like auto insurance.
once again the insured pay for the uninsured in high premiums a good example or regulation is the housing crises, it was de-regulated and what happened ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 2:40pm
It's from my understanding that it's based on number of employees and salaries earned. Companies with 50 employees or less are exempt.
"The Congressional Budget Office estimated that for those in the group market — those who get insurance through their employers — premiums would largely stay the same. The change in the average premium in the large group market would be between 0 percent and a 3 percent decrease, for instance, compared with where they’d be under current law in 2016. The average premiums for those who buy insurance on their own would go up, however, by 10 percent to 13 percent. The reason is that benefits would become a lot better for this market under the bill. Also, most people buying their own coverage would receive subsidies that make their net costs for these plans substantially lower than they otherwise would be. "
But it's the "right" thing to do. |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 2:42pm
Yes, capitalism at it's finest. |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 2:55pm
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I agree providing for others is a very good thing to do and shows a compassion we should have for our fellow man. It is best given out of the kindness of our hearts, rather than required by government, IMO.
I really think this thing will never actually get off the ground. But, if it does, we can feel pretty confident of where this country will be headed. Just look at all the other socialist type countries. If that is what you want, keep voting these folks in and letting them pass legislation to take the country that direction. If it isn't, November is coming around soon and your voice is your vote. Phil, Just out of curiousity. If I came to you and asked you to give me 40% or more of your income to take care of your neighbor, would you just hand me the money? |
Posted By: MI-nick
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 3:18pm
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i don't understand why no one seems to be interested in atacking the issue of why health insurance is so expensive in the first place.
if costs are high and you just "cap" what you'll pay, how does that fix anything?? for example, insurance costs are high because it's costs a lot of money to go to the hospital. if it cost's $1000 to go to the hospital, capping what you'll pay at $500 reduced what you pay, but doesn't address the issue of why it costs $1000 in the first place. my guess it that doing that type of analysis is too hard so they just gave up..."we don't know why costs are high...but we have to do something". if you attack the root cause of why the cost is high and actually do something to reduce the cost (not just what you'll pay) then everybody wins. am I missing something here?? i think we need more engineers in politics.... ------------- As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure... |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 3:23pm
Heck no I wouldn't but I will continue to do my share and pay my taxes. It's the price for civility. And this health care bill is so far from Socialism. I know that all the conservative talking pundits want you to think it's Socialism... The U.S., in fact, has socialized education through high school, socialized highway systems, and socialized fire departments. Strange how they aren't screaming socialism about our roads. Wouldn't it be terrible to have a 35 hour work week and 4 weeks paid vacation like France? This health care bill is actually very pro-business. Health care companies and doctors have the potential to get 32 million more people in business. |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 3:32pm
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He is a socialist and this is a socialist heatlh reform bill. The bill will "Kill" our Senior Citizens. Tax and tax more to pay the tax. But dont worry, he knows him and his liberal team, he a one term president, if he even makes that.
O yea, also set up some more of them abortion clinics...  A revolution is coming.. Where is Ronald Reagan when we need him..  ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 3:48pm
Please..You mean in 82' when Reagan raised taxes on gasoline and cigarettes, or in 83' when he signed the biggest tax increase in payroll taxes? What about Iran Contra proud of that one too? Reagan is responsible for spreading at least 3 Trillion dollars because of his policies. |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 3:56pm
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Phil,
If you wouldn't hand me the money, why are you OK with the government taking it from you by force? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Some folks have been upset about roads, schools, etc. from their inception. From a purely Constitutionalist perspective, socializing anything like that and having government dole it out does not fit with the plans of this country and does not equal pure freedom. |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 3:59pm
Yup. If there is truly a concern to ensure health care is affordable and available to everyone, why is there not a focus on driving down costs? Why is the focus forcing coverage for those that don't have it now and funding it with taxpayer dollars? Why is the focus on providing government supplied benefits rather than keeping it private? |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 4:00pm
Help me out here. I thought Congress wrote legislation for appropriations and tax law changes. How is it that Reagan is responsible for that? |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 4:01pm
Sure, but they don't scream SOCIALISM! And I also agree with the post that MI-nick posted. |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 4:04pm
| Some did. Many didn't understand what socialism is and does, nor did they recognize what was happening as such. Maybe what we're seeing today is a result of folks being a little more enlightened and outspoken and realizing that trusting the government is a bad idea, like our founding fathers were trying to teach us and prevent. |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 4:05pm
So do you think this whole health care bill is to try to help the people or some other motive? What's your take? |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 4:12pm
He was president right? After Congress approves an appropriations bill, it is sent to the president, who may sign it into law, or may veto it. That's how.
So then I assume you agree that this health care bill is not socialism but regulation? Like regulation that could have stopped our economic meltdown. |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 4:14pm
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Well know they do not like to call socialist. Now they call him "Progressive Leaders", is the right way know.
Phil, Ronald Reagan did those tax cuts to get away from unions that where tied to the goverment. He created many great things with some tax cuts, but I can gurantee the national defict was under a trillion dollars when he was president. Now this Obama coome walking in with a defict of 2.8 trillion dollars, and now is 12 trillion dollars. He a big spender.. NR! 
------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 4:15pm
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Republicans get the house back in November, I gurantee they will try to appeal that bill. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 4:18pm
You so right!  ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 4:20pm
Yes, this is true. Many President's, like him, signed bills they wouldn't normally agree with based upon the majority holding in Congress. He should have stood for his beliefs and vetoed those bills, IMO. I'm sure he would have if the situation was different. Edit: I don't view that as being the President's fault. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 4:30pm
Reagan did all he could with two liberal Dem congresses; so he pushed some of the tax burdon downstream, then everybody had a stake in the spending the congress really wanted to do. Oh, you forgot winning the cold war and starting the biggest nukler' arms reductions the world had seen, resulting in Eastern Europe's rapid prosperity and security since its no longer a future DMZ for the day after. Its all how you look at it, but we can pull-eeze back and forth all day long on this one. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 4:37pm
Oh really? Where did you find those numbers because it was really 3 trillion when he left office. A result of cutting taxes for the rich and creating an arsenal of nuclear weapons. |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 4:44pm
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It did not hit trillions until Bush.. His final year in congress.. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 5:06pm
I see... "The fiscal shift in the Reagan years was staggering. In January 1981, when Reagan declared the federal budget to be "out of control," the deficit had reached almost $74 billion, the federal debt $930 billion. Within two years, the deficit was $208 billion. The debt by 1988 totaled $2.6 trillion. In those eight years, the United States moved from being the world's largest international creditor to the largest debtor nation". source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26402-2004Jun8.html |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 5:25pm
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I love liberals.. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 5:42pm
| yeah, 2.6 Trillion federal debt but Reagan proved deficits don't matter right? i'll bet you loved Clintons surplus too. |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 6:19pm
 ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 6:19pm
 ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 6:20pm
 ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 6:21pm
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maybe this will help you slide ruler boys understand a little better
NOTICE the orange in the last picture. you guys dont seem to mind dumping 15 billion a month in the middle east for fighting for our freedom....last time I checked we had trident missles protecting us ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 7:34pm
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Now remind me a minute...not a big history or government guy here, but understand basic economics.
Surplus will occur when either spending is reduced or revenues are increased, right? Which one occurred during the Clinton years and why? |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 7:57pm
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Your premise is not without bounds; i'm sure you see that.
I may be in err, but the surplus never occured in the Clinton years. These were projections 6-8-10 years out estimating a balanced budget, but the economy never stays the same that long, nor do dot-com bubbles, nor do the polititions trying to dink with everything. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: bkhallpass
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 8:12pm
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And folks wonder why the rich are taking their business and their money to other countries. The rich do not have to get a job in their neighborhood. They can take it anywhere. When they recieve a tax cut, every study shows that they invest the money, and end up paying an even higher proportion of the income taxes. All the talk about more taxing of the rich, is BS. The rich pay far more than their fair share. But, they are not without limits. They will not tolerate it forever. If the 95% of Americans who do not pay the majority of the taxes, keep trying to add taxes to the 5% of Americans who do pay the majority of taxes there will be consequences, and it will not be the rich who are suffering. You cannot tax others to create your own prosperity.
See one example article below. BKH July 29, 2009 Tax Burden of Top 1% Now Exceeds That of Bottom 95% by Scott A. Hodge Newly released data from the IRS clearly debunks the conventional Beltway rhetoric that the "rich" are not paying their fair share of taxes. Indeed, the IRS data shows that in 2007—the most recent data available—the top 1 percent of taxpayers paid 40.4 percent of the total income taxes collected by the federal government. This is the highest percentage in modern history. By contrast, the top 1 percent paid 24.8 percent of the income tax burden in 1987, the year following the 1986 tax reform act. Remarkably, the share of the tax burden borne by the top 1 percent now exceeds the share paid by the bottom 95 percent of taxpayers combined. In 2007, the bottom 95 percent paid 39.4 percent of the income tax burden. This is down from the 58 percent of the total income tax burden they paid twenty years ago. To put this in perspective, the top 1 percent is comprised of just 1.4 million taxpayers and they pay a larger share of the income tax burden now than the bottom 134 million taxpayers combined. Some in Washington say the tax system is still not progressive enough. However, the recent IRS data bolsters the findings of an OECD study released last year showing that the U.S.—not France or Sweden—has the most progressive income tax system among OECD nations. We rely more heavily on the top 10 percent of taxpayers than does any nation and our poor people have the lowest tax burden of those in any nation. We are definitely overdue for some honesty in the debate over the progressivity of the nation's tax burden before lawmakers enact any new taxes to pay for expanded health care. ------------- Livin' the Dream |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 9:15pm
oh no, not trickle down economics...really? And what is your definition of rich? Are you rich? |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 11:38pm
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why do people live longer under so called socialized medicine? and for half the price?
the rich and the poor are another discussion, most of the rich in this country is old money handed down, granted, there are the rich who work very hard but too again dont blink an eye spending a thousand a month on healthcare and i feel they should be taxed more, alot of the 134 million notice when gas shoots up to 4.00 bucks a gallon or if thier premiums go up 200 or 300 a month, and this could cause bankrupcy, these are the people living paycheck to paycheck. is it fair? who is to say? the rich get to a point to where thier money will work for them merely by investments with alot of inside help. take the Annhieser Busch family, divide up 52 billion amongst a long family line and investors, per thier advisors its re-invested and big money makes big money. chances are the grandchildren and thier children will never have to work a day in thier life, is that fair or is it pure luck that they are born into that bloodline...should that bracket pay more taxes than the poor man scraping a meager living? probably yes ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 11:40pm
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I knew we where in trouble when you got a President that says you have to spend money to get out of trouble. Now what economics class did you attend.. Not the same as me... SAVE MONEY!
People forget that the rich support our country in many different ways. But if you keep taxing them un godly amounts, why be rich then? Lets just all go work at McDonalds and flip burgers. This is a "Free" country and we are allowed to do what we want. You start taking "freedom" away from people, as even this health reform bill, why be a doctor now... Before you know it, goverment will take over and we will all live in closets, and be begging for a pieace of cheese.. Like Russia!! Demo-RATS I mean Democrats are into BIG Goverment, and they can stick it else where. 
There economic system is out on Pluto and have no idea, as Obama does.. They will ruin this country and can not wait for them to be get kicked out. I personally think, this ignorance will be the end of "Liberalism" as we our getting a taste of it. This country was not based on there ethics and values of the United States of America. It is based on justice,liberty, and foremost, FREEDOM..
Goverment control is not any of these, and will eventually come to an end. I hope I did not affend anyone, we all have beliefs, as I enjoy this site dearly and we all have something great in common. We LOVE our Correct Crafts. I am ready to go boating.. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 11:49pm
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BTW, have you ever been around a truly rich person? they treat you like a servant, you are below them, and i really dont care for the rich...so tax the fck out of them...lol ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: harddock
Date Posted: March-22-2010 at 11:58pm
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I was amazed how many democrats said this is a lousey bill but I have to vote on it anyway. They would be quick to point out the few items people did actually admit liking in it but would never want to talk about the many bad items thrown in with it. The fighting amongst themselves showed it needed more work but they knew the more they worked on it the worse it got. It was all about the win, nothing to do with what is good for or what the people wanted.
As for the process and the constitution .... well democrats think the constitution is a big old navy boat in Boston. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4487" rel="nofollow - 1998 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 12:05am
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come on Skicat, red nose Bush had a couple of faults in him, or are we just overlooking that and attacking a more Humane president, I really dont care for some of his policys, but he persueded the majority to pass a bill that couldnt be passed in 100 years, the jist of this bill is about regulating insurance companies, crossing statelines to create competition and end the monopoly's. the charts i posted are real charts and if you cant see something wrong there, then you better take another look at them.
its not socialized medicine as the pubby's and activists on the payroll TRIED to brainwash everybody what it is or was going to be, a government takeover, btw...the same thing thats happening in Iraq, our government taking over under the same side that got us over there. that doesnt seem to bother anyone. that choice shouild be easy, fight some towels or take care of our own, we are no safer now than we were 20 years ago. an exuse is an excuse ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: bkhallpass
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 12:40am
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Phil, I did not define rich. Our politicians seem to have defined it as individuals making over 200K and household over 250K. Based on your previous post, you seem to have accepted this definition. No, I am not rich. In fact, I am currently unemployed.
Eric, the rich (as our politicians have apparently defined it) already do pay most of the taxes. The top 5% of earners now pay more than the remaining 95%. By the way, the top half of wage earners pay about 95% percent of all income taxes. Half the population is paying less than 5% of the taxes - yet that is not enough? Eric, the uber rich of whom you speak are what they are. Some have had it since the day they were born. They are a small percentage of the population, and, as said, they pay an inordinate portion of the taxes. The better question, is why do the vast majority of Americans somehow feel entitled to live a life of those much wealthier than they actually are? Why do they feel entitled to take money from those who have it? Yes, there are those who stuggle paycheck to paycheck. I have been there myself at times. However, the numbers show that our nation is one whose majority chooses to spend money we should not, that makes poor choices, that fails to take advantage of education and other opportunities available, and then expects the very small minority to feel sorry for the majority, and bear the cost of poor decisions. As a majority we seem to have developed a sense that we all should live as though we are rich - big houses, expensive cars, top flight medical care, $200 tennis shoes, whether we have earned it or not. Approximatley 30% of those making under 50K are smokers. At $5 a pack, and let's say a pack a day, that's over $1500 per year that could be going to milk, gasoline, or health insurance. On average, 4 year college graduates make twice as much as those with high school degrees. The average price of a new car sold in the US is over $28K, despite lots of cars available under that price. This is a country where we are in fact free to make choices. But, others should not be required to pay for our choices. BKH ------------- Livin' the Dream |
Posted By: critter
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 1:12am
That will change tomorrow. I will no longer be able to choose little or no insurance. I have to choose at least what the Govt (IRS) tells me. You can ride a motorcycle in SC with no helmet, not so in NC. But I can pay to keep the SC rider that had an accident alive as a veg for the rest of their life.. Yeah me.... I feel so privileged ------------- 1980 Ski Nautique 1966 Barracuda |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 1:49am
Come on now Eric, You tha man of the site. Bush had his faults, yes I agree.. He stuck to the war to long, but gurantee he was why you could lay your head down every night in pieace. Freedom aint for free! Them ragheads are terroists and they can never be tamed to doing the right thing. Rich do put themselves on a pedal stool, but you need to realize cause of them, we are where we are today because of them. Screw the rich and suck there blood and give to the illegals that do NOT belong.. It is socialized medicine bro, it is about taking from others and giving to people that do not deserve this service. Democrats are all about "Redisturbting Wealth", take from the rich and give to the poor. Aint Right! This new bill shows it and will screw the "Middle Class" and the "Poor". You wait and see my friend. There next bill they will try to pass is to allow illigal immagrants to become citizens of easy citizenship. Screw that! ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 1:51am
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This is a free country.. You got your socialized change.. You can have the change, I will keep my "Freedom".... ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: critter
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 2:00am
For the 3rd time.... How many times do we allow illegals to become instant citizens before we stop the illegals. ------------- 1980 Ski Nautique 1966 Barracuda |
Posted By: TX Foilhead
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 2:59am
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Tax the rich, Tax the rich!! Great idea guys, then you can get a job from a poor guy.
"The trouble with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money." Margaret Thatcher |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 10:32am
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did you guys know that more metal is used in this country to make bottle caps, than it does to make cars?
I read somewhere that the majority of Correct Craft owners are upper middleclass, i better start hanging around the Bayliner site lol ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: 65 'cuda
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 10:40am
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The wealthy pay the vast majority of the taxes, they have the vast majority of the wealth. All the numbers quoted are saying that the top wage earners pay a disproportionate share of the taxes. Of course, the very wealthiest Americans don't earn wages, Warren Buffet admits he pays a lower tax rate than his secretary.
------------- Gary http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=941" rel="nofollow - 1965 Barracuda SS |
Posted By: bkhallpass
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 11:53am
Some have wealth in which they are able to live off only investments and, therefore, pay taxes at capital gains rates. To imply that all those who the government has classified as "rich" are able to do so is misleading. There are millions who the politicians have classified as "rich" who earn wages, and the capital gains tax rate is available to anyone willing to invest rather than spend. BKH ------------- Livin' the Dream |
Posted By: critter
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 12:16pm
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From a job perspective, I have never been hired by a poor person or a business getting ready to go bankrupt.
Maybe you guys have a different experience.. It takes money to hire people and run a business. ------------- 1980 Ski Nautique 1966 Barracuda |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 12:42pm
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We are slowly removing all incentives for people to get up in the morning and be productive.
------------- |
Posted By: emccallum
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 1:16pm
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So, let me get this straight: I make good decisions, take risks, borrow money for my education, work hard at my profession, deal with all the regulations, pissant beauracrats, and still end up earning a good living. Then you want to come to me and say I dont pay my fair share? I owe it to the less fortunate ones. I should share the wealth.
You mean give it to the folks that drop out of school, overspend, have children out of wedlock that they cant afford to raise, buy cars they cant afford to drive, and make a career out of "disability". So they will vote you back into office? I, like many hard working Americans, are tired of subsidizing nonwork, inefficiency, government waste, social programs, gvt schools, etc. We have spent billions on these programs and still have the same problems...and they keep telling us more money will make it better. Enough is enough! Wake up guys, it is the same cr#p from both sides of the aisle. All they want is another piece of your liberty and freedom. We need some states to stand up and say "We are opting out"! Sorry for the rant, but I dont even recognize the country I learned about in grammer school. |
Posted By: harddock
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 1:32pm
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Every factory worker is subject to a possible mandatory drug test.
Every welfare recipient is not. What's wrong with this picture? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4487" rel="nofollow - 1998 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: emccallum
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 1:38pm
| The welfare worker WILL vote for bigger gvt, the factory worker may not! |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 1:40pm
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My friends Gary, Roger, Ernest, Don Adams, and Bruce Hart;
Yall all said it just like it is.. Great to see my "Conservative" buddies come out..
O yea the best part of the bill, I forgot to tell. Is this a socialist bill, off course, complete goverment owned and operated. Premiums at all insurance companies will sky freeking rocket, then small business owners, will not offer insurance to there employees anymore, so the Goverment will "Penalize" you and the companies a rather large fee. 100 a head to start, then 800 the next year. Then penalize people that are not even working.. What? Sounds like socialism to me, Goverment Owned.. Great talking to all you guys on this matter.. Lets go boating.. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 1:41pm
I agree with some things you guys are saying. BKH brings up good point how everyone is trying to keep up with the Joneses' and living well beyond their means. I also agree with the comments about illegals but realistically that would never happen. My issues aren't with the guy making 200 or 250K a year. Which, in my book, is wealthy but far from rich. Yeah, they probably could afford to pay a little more but the real issue is with the top 1% and the corporations. Warren Buffet also said, "There’s class warfare, all right but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning." The rich pay a lot of taxes as a total percentage of taxes collected, but they don’t pay a lot of taxes as a percentage of what they can afford to pay. There are a lot of people out there voting with the hopes that they too will be rich one day. Truth is that most will never come close. My issues are more with large companies that are making millions and millions of dollars, paying their executives million dollar salaries and laying off hundreds or thousands of workers. Look at Walmart. In 2008 the CEO of Walmart, made nearly 30 Million dollars while the average full time employee at Walmart made under 20k. That's 1,551 times the average employee!
I know right..God forbid that a doctor went into his profession for the sake of helping people and is satisfied making a good wage. Furthermore, The American Medical Association (AMA), the largest physician group supports this bill. The free market has had it's chance at health care and it clearly does not work.
Exactly what freedoms have you lost? I would love to see this list of freedoms.. It's funny how people think there taxes have gone up.. "Only 12 percent of the public say that the Obama administration has lowered their taxes since coming to office, despite the fact that the White House's stimulus package cut taxes for 95 percent of Americans, a new opinion survey found". America does better when EVERYONE does better. |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 1:42pm
That's Hor***************! ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 1:45pm
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Rob the rich and give to the poor.. Thats our goverment "Motto" right now.. Gonna steal 500 BILLION Dollars from Medicare.
I feel sorry for the" SENIORS "Who run this country.. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: emccallum
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 1:55pm
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Phosper,
No offense, but, we could post talking points and surveys all day long and never change an opinion. When you post: "The rich pay a lot of taxes as a total percentage of taxes collected, but they don’t pay a lot of taxes as a percentage of what they can afford to pay" I dont need to read anymore, I know what camp you are in. You want to control what people can earn, and how they can spend it. That is where I feel like my pursuit of happiness is being invaded on. Please read below (from Wilkapedia): From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs) is a slogan popularized by Karl Marx in his 1875 Critique of the Gotha Program.[1] The phrase summarizes the principles that, under a communist system, every person should contribute to society to the best of his or her ability and consume from society in proportion to his or her needs. In the Marxist view, such an arrangement will be made possible by the abundance of goods and services that a developed communist society will produce; the idea is that there will be enough to satisfy everyone's needs Oh, by the way, about 30% of docs are members of the AMA!! Nothing personal, but you are full of it. |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 2:01pm
You guys must all be very wealthy cause you sure talk like your rich.
I'm sure.. Wouldn't it be great if we spent zero dollars on taxes, you just got to keep everything you earned.. yeah, you would keep it all right, for about a day until you get your ass beat down by some thug. Desperate people do desperate things. |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 2:09pm
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Phosper dont be "Narrow" minded.. I aint rich, far from it.. Thankful to not live in Russia, or a socialist owned country.. Proud to be an American.
But as you said in a previous post, we have not lost any freedom.. This health reform bill is the start of our freedom waving "BYE BYE".
The goverment now "OWNS" the medical field and all desicions tied to it. So enjoy it Phosper, you wanted it, not us!  ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 2:18pm
emccallum, If your one of the wealthy ones earning over 250k than I can see where you are coming from. My family itself is just inside the top 5% and I live very comfortable. To me it's more of a people issue as opposed to a political issue. The majority of you being conservative most likely supported the 2 wars and the bush tax cuts to the top 1% but your against paying for health care. Yeah, and you right wing conservatives are suppose to be the ones with the morals... morals my ass all you care about is $$$. Well, don't forget that money is the root of all evil. edit: In case you haven't figured it out yet. There is more to life than money. |
Posted By: Morfoot
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 2:36pm
WHAT??????? Kinda of an oxymoron quote for someone who doesn't believe in God isn't it? We now return to your regularly scheduled programming. ------------- "Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman" |
Posted By: Morfoot
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 2:38pm
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If this health care bill is so GRAND then how come those that voted for it are exempt from it including the Prez himself? ------------- "Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman" |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 2:41pm
Funny, I kind of thought one of you would say that and I actually thought about putting "Figure of speech" in parentheses. But since you brought it up do you think God would be a capitalist? Think he would be against this health care bill? Ok, maybe we shouldn't get into that :) |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 2:43pm
For the same reasons why I don't need to change my insurance that is already being provided through my company. This bill is to help the uninsured and under insured. A 1,000 mile walk starts with one step. This is a step in the right direction. |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 2:49pm
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I just got a grand idea.... Tax the churches!
"We are not talking chump change here. Consider that for every tax dollar a religious organization does not pay, you and I pay it on its behalf. Many are among the wealthiest organizations in the world: by 1971, the amount of real and personal property owned by U.S. churches was approx. $110 billion. In New York City alone, the amount was $3 billion in 1989. A 1986 estimate showed religious income in that year of approx. $100 billion, or about five times the income of the five largest corporations in the U.S. All tax free". |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 2:49pm
You got that right.. ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: Morfoot
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 2:51pm
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Not to mention that WE are going to have to pay for abortions by those who are to stupid to keep it in their pants or by using other means of birth control. For SOME, it WILL be their method and I'm paying for it. That is just WRONG! No IF'S AND'S or BUT'S! ------------- "Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman" |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 3:39pm
Easy to say when you never had to worry how you were going to pay your heating bill, the mortgage, the orthondontist when he informs you of phase 2, college, etc, etc... You sound like a typical well off northeastern liberal. ------------- |
Posted By: tullfooter
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 3:51pm
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I read this last month. I think it's an interesting analogy;
An economics professor gives his students a stark lesson in socialism: An economics professor at Texas Tech said he had never failed a single student, but had once failed an entire class. The students insisted that socialism worked since no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on socialism.” “All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade.” After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who had studied hard were upset while the students who had studied very little were happy. But, as the second test rolled around, the students who had studied little studied even less and the ones who had studied hard decided that since they couldn’t make an A, they also studied less. The second Test average was a D. No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around the average grade was an F. The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name calling, all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for anyone else. To their great surprise all failed. The professor told them that socialism would ultimately fail because the harder people try to succeed the greater their reward (capitalism) but when a government takes all the reward away (socialism) no one will try or succeed. Eric, when you say "tax the rich", how much? ------------- Play hard, life's not a trial run. '85 BFN '90 BFN White Lake, Michigan |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 3:52pm
Morfoot, another 200k plus guy ey? Wow, we have a lot of people doing well here on this site. You are NOT going to pay for this bill unless you earn over 200k for a single tax payer or 250k for a couple. You may say, "yeah, but my premiums will go up" hate to break it to you but they were all ready going up and have been going up damn near forever. I can see your point on abortion until the federal government made clear that it would not subsidize abortion procedures with tax dollars. Now get your asses over to factcheck.org and quit spreading these lies that your picking up from the right wing propaganda machines. |
Posted By: tullfooter
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 3:57pm
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Another story, sorry so long.
Our Tax System Explained: Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this: The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing. The fifth would pay $1. The sixth would pay $3. The seventh would pay $7. The eighth would pay $12. The ninth would pay $18. The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59. So, that’s what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. ‘Since you are all such good customers,’ he said, ‘I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.’ Drinks for the ten now cost just $80. The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ‘fair share?’ They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so: The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings). The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings). The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings). The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings). The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings). The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings). Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings. ‘I only got a dollar out of the $20,’declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,’ but he got $10!’ ‘Yeah, that’s right,’ exclaimed the fifth man. ‘I only saved a dollar, too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more than I got’ ‘That’s true!!’ shouted the seventh man. ‘Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!’ ‘Wait a minute,’ yelled the first four men in unison. ‘We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!’ The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill! And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier. David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D. Professor of Economics University of Georgia For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible. ------------- Play hard, life's not a trial run. '85 BFN '90 BFN White Lake, Michigan |
Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 4:02pm
Riley, Let me be clear, I did not get to this point over night and I was not born into any wealth. Everything that I own I've worked for and paid for myself. And I would be lying to say that luck had nothing to do with my career decisions. I could have taken another job or another career path that possibly wouldn't have worked out so well. As some conservatives suggest they think education is the answer for everything. Well, let me tell you I have a lot of friends who have bachelors degrees who are just getting by and some can't even find jobs. For a few years when I was first starting my career I could have really benefited from a cheap insurance policy. Luckily, I never got sick or injured that required me to be in the hospital. Now, that my family is doing fine I don't mind helping out someone who is not as fortunate or someone who chose a career that doesn't pay so much. You sound like you listen to Rush Limbaugh. Rush has reason to be against this, he's a millionaire and he's going to be taxed like one. That's why he tries to scare everyone as they hop into their pick-up trucks at lunch. The government for the people by the people. Being for the top 1% is not for the people. The people is the majority and the majority will not be taxed on this bill. Again, America does better when we ALL do better. |
Posted By: emccallum
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 4:11pm
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I was born and raised in the South, but, I had the opportunities to spend much time in the Northeast. From my experiences, it is a self annointed, entitled, mentality. A few examples....all for gun control, excempt for my personal bodyguard; all for wind power excempt not in our backyard; they can tell you all about race relations except they dont have one minority in their county, including Jews or Italians! Put them in your Country Club NOT ours! And....My #1 Northeast liberal pet peeve: They have regulated, unionized, taxed, and totally screwed up their area of the country, then decide to move South and tell us how it is done on Long Island! They really crack me up. I have to laugh and tell them, we didn't ask for your advice, blessing, or company.
Phosper, what I do with my money is my business, not the gvts. If I want to give it away, great. If I want to hord it, great. Yes, our founding fathers did expect a certain amount of tax to defend us, provide infrastructure, etc. It said nothing about education, retirement, healthcare, mandating purchasing a product from a private business, etc. Why should I do all the work and the government make half the money? When I add up taxes, I am close to fifty percent. Yes, that includes taxes on telephone service, cell service, property tax, gas, sales tax, utility bill tax...this could go on and on. I just prefer to be left alone, and what ever income I get I would rather spend it locally, then send it to liberal do-gooders, who dont have a clue about hardwork, sacrifice, and perservereance. They are only concerned with building and ensuring their own personal wealth. What we need in this country is jobs. We need to make stuff. We need to exploit our natural resources, we need to focus more on jobs and less on spotted owls and Delta smelt! |
Posted By: Morfoot
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 4:12pm
Well let's check the W-2......... 40 hours a week @ 52 weeks a year +121 hours OT for the year Barely busted 60K No I don't think that I made ANYWHERE CLOSE to the 200K. I don't know too many mechanics out there that make that kinda money. How bout you Mr. Lavine? ** Post Edit ** I'm a Aviation Mechanic and work with my hands for a a living. I got off my lazy arse and went to college to get my A&P license. I DO NOT expect the gov to take of me and neither should anyone else. Why else are so many folks who could get a job(before the economy tanked) on welfare. " Why should I go out a work for a living when I can get gov housing, food stamps, etc. and have as many kids as I please and get more perks from the gov. WHY on earth would I go get a job and loose out? They OWE me. ------------- "Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman" |
Posted By: MI-nick
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 4:14pm
why is that exactly?? anyone?? ------------- As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure... |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 4:16pm
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Phil I very seldom listen to Rush Limbaugh or any conservative talk radio. I did used to listen to Air America ie Al Franken and Randy Moss. What you libs don't get is conservative talk radio is popular because a lot of people really think like that. I find it boring because it's nothing new to me. I'd rather listen to music. I had you pegged for a liberal in the religeous thread. Easy to spot the attitude.
Answer this: Why are the politicians exempt from the plan? Are they going to be taxed on their Cadillac plans? ------------- |
Posted By: emccallum
Date Posted: March-23-2010 at 4:23pm
It is b/c we already have universal healthcare for the unisured. Check out your local ER any day of the week. Hospitals shift the costs from the nonpayers to the payers. The thought behind mandating insurance for everyone, will be all folks will have skin in the game, and everyone will be paying something. That sounds good until you realize that the gvt is hiring 17K IRS agents to make sure everyone has a qualified plan, and the amount you pay for a premium will be based on how much you earn! The rest will be subsidized by the taxpayers....after the gvt pencil pushers get their cut, and of course exempt themselves from the mandate. Oh, and if you have a good plan, and aren't in a Union then you get a tax for having too good of insurance! |