Rebuilding 351W
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16942
Printed Date: October-31-2024 at 9:30pm
Topic: Rebuilding 351W
Posted By: clibat2
Subject: Rebuilding 351W
Date Posted: March-29-2010 at 7:05pm
| Hey guys. I am undertaking an engine rebuild of a 351W EFI out of my 1995 Sport Nautique. It started knocking really bad at the end of last season, so I hoisted up the engine about 2 feet, just enough to replace the bearings. Cyclinder 7 was spun. 1 bearing slid on top of the other and as flat as could be.. So $90 later I had new bearings in and it sounded great... It was a long shot, and I lost.. about 10 minutes after getting it into the water.... knock knock knock... click... and the motor won't move at all. This time I am obviously pulling the motor out. I am going to replace the crank shaft, bearings, main seals, and take the rods to get tested for true at the local machine shop. I know I have a LH rotation engine (standard) so I can get many of the part from any auto parts store. I have seen that cranks for marine 351s are different than cranks for automotive, and when I look at prices, the auto parts store want $250 for a crank and bearings. Mainas want $650 for just the crank. Is that because the marine crank is different? Stronger to handle the constant high RPM? Or is it just because the Marinas are smaller shops and charge more? |
Replies:
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: March-29-2010 at 7:33pm
| Ahhhh The $250 crank is refurbished. That may be a BIG part of the price difference. If anyone has any words of wisdom on the subject, I would still love to hear them. |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: March-29-2010 at 10:06pm
|
are the counter weights the same for the automotive and marine ones? or are they balanced differently? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-29-2010 at 10:23pm
|
do you have a local crank grinder in your area? the parts store has to get them from somewhere and its usually locally, normally in the 150.00 range w/ bearings,and undersize, if you go straight to the source. no difference in marine except the price, i cant imagine that the rods survived, a good engine shop will have machine to repair rods, they grind the flats where they connect together and hone the bore to size..... ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: JHH
Date Posted: April-02-2010 at 12:52am
| Newbie here boat and message board. Just bought a 1980. I knew it needed an engine. After checking prices of marine parts to rebuild. I was shocked. Searched the web and found a great price on a rebuilt. I was very impressed good quality, timing chain is double roller chain. Saved me a lot of time Paid $1780 with shipping and core. I do not know if I can post the business name. If not just remove my post. sandjengines.com Thanks to everyone I am learning so much great information on this site. |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: April-02-2010 at 10:09am
hope you bought a reverse rotation engine for your application. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
JHH wrote:Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-02-2010 at 11:35am
I hope so too but looking at their prices it does look like he did. They charge about $200 extra for a RH marine. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: April-02-2010 at 12:16pm
|
i'm a little confused though since he states it's including the 200 core that would be $1930.00 based upon the site's pricing and 1763.00 for the standard rotation which is the wrong motor for the year boat unless someone has changed the tranny or dump in the transmission. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-02-2010 at 1:23pm
|
Back to the original poster, here is no difference between the automotive and marine cranks in your application. I would say if you have now spun a bearing twice on your previous crank its probably messed up beyond being saved by a grind and set of oversized bearings but if you try make sure you get the crank magnafluxed before you invest any money in it. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: April-02-2010 at 2:08pm
And check the thrust bearing journal too. and to clarify a little more there isn't any differnce on the cranks as long as they are both standard rotation, but in a reverse rotation application they can be different if the crank has machined wick lines for the rear seal. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: April-02-2010 at 11:51pm
| Thanks guys. The motor is coming out tomorrow. Got the engine stand, and access to a pretty serious backhoe to pull it up. Thanks for the info and advice. It is a standard rotation engine. Once it is out I will see what I have. I fully intend on taking the block to a machine shop and making sure the channels stayed true, who knows, the whole block could have been twisted! I'll also have the rods checked. I called PCM tech support and they said they could tell me if it is the same crank shaft they used in the marine engines if I can give them the Ford model number. Of course I can't since it would be a refurb. I never considered having my crank shaft cut, if it looks like any damage is mild, maybe I will head down that road. So the goal for tomorrow.. get the engine out, don't drop it on the way out :), and get it on a stand. |
Posted By: JHH
Date Posted: April-03-2010 at 1:02am
| Newbie I am getting great information on this site just too late. I am waiting for an e-mail from the PO. Boat has a new starter. Probably bought at an auto parts store. What I saw was standard rotation. I am glad I found out now before I progressed further. Again Thanks |
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: April-03-2010 at 6:45pm
|
Okay the motor is out. Took some pictures to document the fun!!
Here is the motor in the boat. 
Here is our "engine hoist" 
It is out of the boat!! 
Wondering why I can't get a socket on 1 of the oil pan bolts... the oil pan has a dent from the inside. (Ut ohh) 
Catostophic engine failure.. 2 rods let loose. 
Cam chaft split in 2.. 
This is what was in the bottom of the oil pan. 
The cyclinder wall is pretty beat up, I guess I'll be on the hunt for a new motor... CRAP!! |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-03-2010 at 9:37pm
|
And I thought I was pretty good at breaking an engine ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: April-03-2010 at 9:52pm
| You can actually see the worst damage to the cylinder wall in the picture of the cam shaft. The damage is really low.. the piston would go over it, but the rings wouldn't go anywhere near it. Still hoping I can salvage the block.. Will have to see what the machine shop says about it. |
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: April-06-2010 at 11:51am
|
I've been pricing long blocks over the internet for the last couple of days and thought I would share since it is a lot of calling around and leg work... I called 7 places...
sandjengines.com - $1,846 motor + $400 core + $175 shipping = $2,421 The core would cost me $175 to return and since it is damaged, there may be a penalty. skidim.com - I work with skidim on everything, but all they sell is crate motors. jasperengines.com - $2,946 motor + $365 core + $176 tax = $3,487.76 - By far the most expensive. psengines.com - $2,019 total – no core – no shipping – do not need to return old core Searchpartsengines.com - $1,838 total – no core – no shipping – $1,920.71 credit card price – Cash is $1,838. usaboatmotor.com - $2,195 total – no core – no shipping – no taxes Firstmatemarine.net recommended me to Atlandtic Engine Exchange. They want $1,995 for motor, no core, no taxes Some places include the timing cover with the motor, some don't. All include the gaskets. The warantees are all different but for the most part are between 1 and 2 years. I am going to pull the heads off the motor today and see if they were damaged when the rods let go. I figure there is a good chance one of the pistons got up high enough to do some serious damage to the heads. The problem is that I have GT40 heads right now which were rebuilt last year. I realized AFTER making these phone calls that the heads included with the long block prices quoted are not GT40s. They are the more generic head and will cut down my HP from 310 to about 245. I have called back 2 of the above places to ask them how much with GT40s and they both said they would have to call me back... waiting on those calls. Does anyone know what I would feel different between 245 HP and 310 HP? Would the boat still plane out with 245? Could I still get up to 40 MPH? The only thing I pull around is a tube, not too worried about getting skiiers out of the hole. I imagine the boat will only go as fast as the tranny lets it go anyway right? |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: April-06-2010 at 12:27pm
|
If the heads are good just get a junkyard f-truck 351 and use its shorblock, put it together and go tubing. You'll still have a 300 hp engine for cheap. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-06-2010 at 1:33pm
|
I agree completely with Gottaski here... you should be able to get a complete low milage (say 75k or less) pull out non roller 351w for around 500 or so relatively local. Look through www.car-part.com. If it is a roller engine you will be on the hook for new pushrods and a gear change on your distributor, so beware of that. You might have a bent valve or two on those heads but just get a local machine shop to check and replace them if necessary.
Everything else will bolt up and it will work, the pistons, etc are exactly the same.. there might be a cam difference but I wouldnt sweat it unless you want to get something special. Yes the piston to wall clearances and ring end gaps on the marine engine are typically larger, but if you are getting a truck engine and it has 50 to 75k miles on it already I wouldn't give it a second thought. You can replace the casting/expansion/freeze or whatever you want to call them plugs with brass if it would make you feel better. I did this last year when I broke my crank in half to build a backup engine, I was back in the water within a couple days. Be a little careful with electronic parts, injectors, etc, you pull off and keep them as spares for your engine some of them should be the same.. . ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: jrichard172
Date Posted: April-12-2010 at 2:42am
|
Hey im new to the site I have learned alot from this fourm.
I just purchased a 1982 ski nautique it needed a new engine I found a good deal from rapido marine $1600 including shipping. |
Posted By: abolton
Date Posted: April-12-2010 at 2:16pm
|
I am changing out a loose timing chain on my 78 351W RH Commander, they big sprocket has red Nylon ? teeth.... The ones I got at Napa are steel teeth - whats the deal, should I replace just the chain? ------------- ABE |
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: April-16-2010 at 5:53pm
| Finally decided to the pull the trigger today. Ordered a short block so I can use my GT40s and it is being shipped to me. I spoke to 8 different places, and Rapidomarine.com turned out to be the best deal for what I needed. Many places won't even sell a short block. I'll keep the thread updated as to how it goes. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: April-16-2010 at 6:23pm
|
egad, why? ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: April-16-2010 at 8:29pm
|
I remeber a couple of members mectioned doing business with rapido marine, and as far as I can remember non of them had any complaints about the product they recieved. I my self asked a quote for a short block when I was sourcing parts for my rebuilt, and RM was the best deal, still I can´t seem to understand if they actually do all the things thay state for such a low price. Finally I opted to rebuilt my engine cause it was to difficult to get the engine through local customs.
------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: LaurelLakeSkier
Date Posted: April-16-2010 at 8:40pm
I'd say replace them as a set....a new chain with an old sprocket is not usually a good idea. |
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: April-17-2010 at 2:28pm
| Thanks for the info on Rapido. I found them to be the least expensive, hopefully that doesn't mean the "cheapest". I just ordered 2 new exhaust manifolds and risers from skidim. I really hope my GT40s bolt right up to this short block and it starts on the first turn of the key. |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: April-17-2010 at 3:08pm
|
or go to your local engine builder, every town has one, and see if he has a rebuildable core laying around...use your heads, probably maybe just bent a valve??? easily a thousand dollar project, I just bought a set of sbf rollers from summit, 103.95 for the set, they are summit brand but made by Comp or to the likes, get a good cam, bottem end, slap on your heads....good to go. I see your mechanically inclined. you never know what you get when you mainstream, Tiawan pistons, no name bearings, and Seth assembling in the back forty...
I just assembled a BBC, swap over, the guy supplied the long block, greeeeeaaat deal, 995.00, (no warranty on my part) I told him do you seriously think this engine will make it to the end of the summer? how can someone build a reliable engine for 995.00? easily, put 9.00 pistons in it, 12.00 rings and 6.00 bearings ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: wayner
Date Posted: April-18-2010 at 6:09pm
|
I looked at 86 Nautique that the engine is shot. Bent or broken rod is what I understand. It is in nice shape and had 800 hours on it. Two owner boat.
When I went to purchase it and look it over is when we found the problem. It would not turn over. I said take it to the shop and get some compression readings and inspected. Shop cam back and said it was froze up and just figure a different motor. It had the 351 ford in it. What would it actually cost me to have another motor put in this boat. It will help me determine the price. |
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: April-20-2010 at 12:33am
|
Hey Eric.. I talked to 2 local guys.. no 351s.. I called 5 junk yards.. no 351s... They are getting hard to come by!! It makes me feel better about the place when there is no core charge because they say they won't reuse a boat block.. And they do give a decent 1 year warantee.
Wayner, I would value a boat with a dead 351 about $5,000 below what the boat would be if it was running. If they disagree, tell them to fix it first, then give them the cost on top of what they are asking.. It's a big hassle! |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: April-20-2010 at 1:15am
|
I bought a long block 351W RH rotation from Carolina Machine Engines http://www.cmengines.com/
I'm hoping to fire it up within the next two weeks. I was really tempted to find a heavy duty chevy 350 standard rotation junkyard engine and convert it to marine but a lot of the parts on the 351W were pretty new (alternator, starter, prop). Most marine engines are chevy based now any way. |
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: April-21-2010 at 3:53pm
|
Try www.pawinc.com - PAW they have nice deals also on long block...
------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: April-27-2010 at 12:30pm
|
I can't really get a long block because I have good GT40 heads that give me 305HP. At $1,800 a piece, you can see why. Any long block is going to come with generic 250HP heads. I already purchased a short block from Rapido Marine. So far my experience with them has not been great.
I called them and was told I should talk to Raul and he would call me back.. At 4pm he hadn't called me, so I called and they said he wouldn't be in till 5:00pm and he calls everyone back after hours. He did not call that night, so I called back again the next morning. Ended up talking to him and ordered a short block. They said they would build the motor and call by the end of the week with a tracking number. Thursday came and no call, so I called them. They said if the motor is ready by 3:00pm they will call with a tracking number, otherwise it would be Friday. No call, so Friday came and I called them back again. They told me a machine broke and the motor would not be ready until Wednesday (tomorrow). So far not a good experience, but I'll give Rapido a final rating after I get the motor and run it for a few weeks. |
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: April-27-2010 at 12:43pm
| I decided to call them just now (Tuesday) and check on the status of the motor being ready tomorrow. The girl now says they ran our of cores and that the motor will not be ready until Friday. Considering canceling the order and going elseware. If these guys can't get their stories straight, how can they build a motor right? |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: April-27-2010 at 1:17pm
|
Get a jasper class II short block so that you get the right cam the heads are only part of the 305hp the cam is the rest. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 1:32pm
| Call ed Rapido again on Friday, they said it would be done by the end of the day and they would call me with a tracking number at 4:30... no call. I called again Monday and they finally are saying it shipped Friday and gave me a tracking number. I'll update on how well the motor works out, but from a customer service prospective, I would stay away from Rapido Marine. |
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: May-07-2010 at 7:40pm
|
Cliff any news here? did you got that engine running? comments? ------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: 82 Nautique 1
Date Posted: May-08-2010 at 2:59pm
|
Rebuild starting problem ?
Need some assistance :) Rebuilt 1988 351 PCM reverse rotation. New wires and new plugs New Mallory electronic distributor #YLU554DV Red wire + Coil Green - Coil Brown - Ground on engine Found TDC installed distributor with rotor pointing in back # 1 cylinder Fireing order 18456273 Thanks for any help Will not start ? Backfiring through carburetor ? Good spark coil wire to ground, spark at plug grounded to block ? Where do I go from here ?? Thanks for any help Dennis ------------- Original Owner " Dennis" http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4855" rel="nofollow - 1982 Nautique |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: May-08-2010 at 3:13pm
|
Based on having done it a thousands times and your symptoms you probably have the plug wire location/order/something off.
My first look would be to make sure you were at top dead center on the compression stroke when you chose the number one cylinder location. So make sure you know where cylinder number 1 is.. http://www.boxwrench.net/specs/ford_302_351W.htm - cylinder location and distributor rotation . Remove the plug from cylinder one, put your finger over the whole turn to top dead center on your balancer at the timing mark. If your finger didnt get pushed off the hole by 90 plus psi of pressure turn the engine around one complete revoltion back to tdc again. Don't stop until you are 100 percent certain that cylinder was in compression right before you stopped it at TDC. Take a piece of chalk and mark where the rotor is pointing somewhere on the intake then put the cap on and reorder your wires to the order you have above making sure to go in a counter clockwise direct and that you know which cylinder is which. Once you know all that is right use only very small adjustments to the distributor position to get it to start. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: 82 Nautique 1
Date Posted: May-08-2010 at 4:44pm
|
Joe.
I did as you suggested with the finger over #1 plug hole. I turned the engine slowly as described and waited for the preasure to stop pushing my finger. I pulled the distributor cap and it was off about 180 degrees? I originally pulled plug # 1 and put a small dowel rod touching the piston and turned engine until the dowel stopped. This was 180 off the finger method? Does this make sense? It then began to run if I tricked gas into the carb as the fuel pump appears to be bad. Is the finger pleasure method a more accurate TDC? Thanks Dennis Thanks Dennis ------------- Original Owner " Dennis" http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4855" rel="nofollow - 1982 Nautique |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: May-08-2010 at 4:45pm
|
I may be confused on this as I'm just learning myself but isn't that distributor for a clockwise rotation
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-YLU554DV/ - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-YLU554DV/ and this for a reverse or counterclockwise rotation. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-YLU554CV/ - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-YLU554CV/ The DV verses CV in the part number |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: May-08-2010 at 4:49pm
|
On the phone here so forgive me for being brief, yes it makes sense you were off180 degrees and yes you are now right and gun driver is confused. More when I get to a real computer ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: May-08-2010 at 5:21pm
|
Ok I have a minute... so gun-driver... The direction of rotation of the engine is talked about in Rh or lh and also as counterclockwise and clockwise and also as standard and reverse... RH, clockwise, reverse all the same thing .. lh, counterclockwise, std all the same thing... and I didnt look but i have no doubt your distributor information is correct.. however none of this has anything to do with the rotation direction of the rotor in a small block ford. The reverse rotation small block ford uses a cam gear and a distributor gear that are cut differently to allow the rotor to still spin counterclockwise just like the standard rotation. If he had the wrong distributor for his reverse rotation camshaft he would not have gotten it all the way down and seated into the engine, and the backfiring would be the least of his worries.. I think I have that right.. but someone will fact check me..
Dennis.. assuming you havent gotten the engine put together wrong the first piston will always physically be at the top of it's stroke where your balancer TDC mark intersects your pointer. The dowel can confirm this but it doesnt tell you if the first cylinder has just completed the compression stroke or not. The crank (and consequently the pistons) go around twice for each time the cam (and consequently the rotor) goes around (thats why the big gear on the cam and small one on the rotor. The dowel or the timing mark tells you each time the piston comes up in cylinder one, but only one out of two times does it come up afer the intake valve was open on the previous down stroke (allowing a charge of air and fuel to be pulled in) and with both valves closed on the upstroke allowing the charge to be compressed and ready to be exploded by the spark. That is when you want the rotor to be there, if it is 180 off it will have just completed the exhaust stroke.. with the exhaust valve open pushing all that air out the exhaust port so the spark does nothing. If you have your valve covers off and can see the valves you could simply set the engine to the timing mark (again assuming the engine has been put together correctly) right after watching the intake open and close, but with the engine together you need to feel the pressure and go slow... if my description is still too confusing.. give me a call 315 567 1273... I am sure your about to hear that thing running... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: May-08-2010 at 6:03pm
|
I always seem to get the direction thing screwed up. That's why we rely on this site for expert advise.
After I posted that I thought about it and I would think that there would be no way to get the opposite distributor gear in. DAH!!!! |
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: May-11-2010 at 12:58am
| It took me a while to try to find the right oil pump tube/screen. Auto parts stores kept ordering the wrong one which was slightly different than the one I have. I noticed when putting it in that the rods blew smacked the tube pretty good and not only bent it but put a nasty crimp in it that would probably have caused me to lose 50% of my oil flow. I got the new filler tube today and put it on.. SO the oil pump is on, filler tube..So I flipped the engine over to start working on the top half. The gasket set I received with the engine has head gaskets that cover 2 of the ports in the front of the motor. The holes in the block line up with holes in the heads, but they would both be blocked off by the gasket. Is that a concern or is it supposed to be that way? |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-11-2010 at 1:56am
The front water passages are blocked by the gasket so that no air is trapped in the block. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: May-11-2010 at 10:28am
|
if I had to call somewhere and ask for Raul, it better be for a massage....not an engine ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: May-11-2010 at 11:46am
|
Thanks Luchog!!
I don't know about you, but if I was going to get a massage and the receptionist said, "Raul will be right in.", I would run out of there pretty fast. |
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: May-11-2010 at 12:01pm
The new block on the stand.. 
|
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: May-17-2010 at 1:29pm
| A new Harmonic balancer is now being shipped. I guess the 3 bolt blancer (which i have) is more expensive than buying a new pulley with 4 bolt holes and the 4 bolt balancer. I was told by SkiDim that they are the same thing, so i ordered the 4 bolt pulley/balancer from them. Should have them Friday. |
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: June-09-2010 at 3:51pm
|
Okay, almost done. The engine and tranny are together and it is on the mounts in the boat. Help me a little with timing here if you could. Does it matter where the interrupter assembly starts? I have the motor at TDC, and can easily line up a distributer with spark plug 1, but of course I don't have a ditributer on this Pro Tech setup. I'm reading in some places that it self-adjusts. Any advice on setting initial timing on a Protech TBI? ------------- Candlewood Lake, Western Connecticut |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: June-09-2010 at 4:34pm
My advice is READ THE DAMN PCM MANUAL. It is clearly stated how to set the system and that base timing has to be set as well as verifiing the timing at 700 and 2200. All of this information is in the referance section if you would just look that is why it is there, to read and use to repair and tune the different engines. I just don't understand why people can be so lazy and not look at the Manauls for simple questions. FYI the protect is not self adjusting, it will adjust the timing according to the engine's needs but it has to be set correctly before it will function correctly. FYI ditch the ProTec now and get a distributor from MyCorrectCraftParts.com before the protec tanks on you. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: June-09-2010 at 5:31pm
|
Whoa chill out! I tried. There are 6 different manuals that might help, and I looked through them... I have a 1995 Sport Nautique with the PCM EFI and what is out in the manuals section that "might" help?
1995 Owner's Manual PCM 302 and 351 Engine Manual PCM Service Manual PCM Pro Boss GT-40 Service Manual Ford 302 and 351 Marine Service Manual PCM Engine Manual (1993) There are thousands of unsearchable pages throughout this group of manuals. When I do find info in the index, I go to that page, and it starts talking about distributer engines. I wish there was 1 clear manual for my setup, but it doesn't seem to exist. I hear you on ditching the ProTec.. It may happen someday, and hopefully before I am dead on the water! As for right now though, I've dumped enough money on this bear the last 2 seasons, and the only thing I didn't have to replace was the ignition system. It has been working great for me even at the ripe old age of 15! Exactly WHICH manual would you suggest I look at for initial timing setting for this setup :)  ------------- Candlewood Lake, Western Connecticut |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: June-09-2010 at 5:42pm
the correct one which took me all of thrity seconds to find. 1993 manual.  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: June-09-2010 at 6:16pm
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Chris,
Can you ditch the Pro-Tech on the EFI motors? Cliff, Where you at on Candlewood? my family has a place at Holiday Point. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1143" rel="nofollow - Mi Bowt |
Posted By: weitekampt
Date Posted: June-09-2010 at 8:09pm
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No, I am 99% sure you need the ProTech. This is why I can't buy a new ProTec system. SkiDim saves them for the injected guys.
Wanna buy one for me clibat2!! ------------- 1993 SkiNautique ProTec 2009 Boatmate trailer. 1240 hours on meter. http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1559&sort=&pagenum=2&yrstart=1991&yrend=1995 - 1993 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: June-09-2010 at 9:42pm
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Todd,
That's what I thought as well, EFI needs the Pro-Tec. When the Pro-Tech tanked on the Paragon (Carbed Pro-Boss) we did the conversion kit Chris mentioned and IMO it ran stronger then new with the Pro-Tec. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1143" rel="nofollow - Mi Bowt |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: June-09-2010 at 9:48pm
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just an observation... did you replace or have your starter rebuilt?
If it was tired it might have problems turning the new engine over. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: June-10-2010 at 11:08am
Well I guess I'm that one percenter that can read a wiring diagram and would use a gt40 distributor and get the job done to convert your EFI Pro-Tec system to a reliable ignition system and ditch the POS Pro-Tec system, But then I'm just a hobbiest so the F do I know. But you might try a search has it has been done all ready and posted on here as well. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: June-10-2010 at 2:21pm
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I like the good owle Chris!!! ------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: June-10-2010 at 2:41pm
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Chris,
Can you say "Goosfraba" for me, LOL. OK ya goon, so would this conversion entail moving the distributer to the back of the motor where it belongs, LOL!! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1143" rel="nofollow - Mi Bowt |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: June-10-2010 at 2:45pm
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No distributor belongs at the back of the motor. That's just plain wrong! ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: June-14-2010 at 2:04pm
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Quinner... I launch in Brookfield. Once I'm in the water, I'm all over the lake. Got the boat started over the weekend. Ran it for a few seconds and shut it down. Next step is putting it in the water.. Crappy Northeast weather has put a damper on that though :( ------------- Candlewood Lake, Western Connecticut |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-14-2010 at 2:26pm
Ford HAD a "better idea" A long..... time ago!!! Then they screwed up!!! And no Tom this is not a flywheel forward engine. Since you're such a big Ford guy, you should know exactly what the engine is!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: June-14-2010 at 5:59pm
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Is that a Y block Pete?? Gotta be since it has 2 bolts where they are to hold the valve covers down.
Other than a y block, or a early 50's flathead I can't think of any other rear mounted distributors in ford V8's. I know the 2.8, 2.9 v6 cologne motors had rear mounted dizzys. One thing i can say about a rear mounted dizzy it hat on a full sized van, they are great because that is the only easy way to change plug wires. And you can do it in the rain and stay dry. Remove doghouse and go at it. Been there done that on a GM 350 and a dodge 360. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-14-2010 at 6:08pm
Tom, Yes, it's a "Y" block but no it's not a flat head. A flat head wouldn't have valve covers!!! None were commercially marinized ether. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: June-14-2010 at 6:12pm
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Yeah, I figured it HAD to be a Y block.
I only listed the only other rear mounted distributor fords I could think of. The cologne v6 and those couple of years of flatheads were odd balls ( for ford), along with the y block. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-14-2010 at 6:18pm
I really wouldn't say 11 years of production of the "Y" block was "oddball". ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: June-14-2010 at 6:25pm
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Well, considering that around 98% (probably more than that even) of all fords were front mounted distributor, I would call it an odd ball.
It would be like an odd ball front dizzy on a gm V8. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-15-2010 at 10:09am
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Tom,
Do you happen to know why Ford went to a front mounted distributor? I do!! Ford kept on snapping cam shafts because they couldn't make a quality shaft like GM could! Putting the distributor and oil pump drive forward they eliminated some of the mid cam loading. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: June-15-2010 at 10:25am
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thats the first post ever, showing some emotion towards Chevy's Pete....good for you ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: June-15-2010 at 8:23pm
Interesting, but when are you talking about year wise? Fords had front mounted before the Y blocks and those few flatheads then switched for a few years on some models, then went back to front mounted distributors. All of these manufacturers buy parts from many of the same places. It's hard to say that ford couldn't make the cam shafts good enough. It's a moot point anyway because they are all DIS now.  ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-15-2010 at 11:47pm
Tom, I'm confused!! you're asking me but you're supposed to be the Ford expert!!
Y block to FE block was the big switch. It was the Y block that was breaking the cams. Do you actually have first hand experience with Y blocks? So, you're saying both Ford and GM outsourced their cams from the same source? Interesting concept! Same specs???? Tell me more about this source that makes my point "moot". What about Chrysler? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: June-16-2010 at 12:22am
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Pete, worry less about semantics, and assumptions, and more about what is posted.
I am far from a ford expert, but I know a bit about them and they have treated me well. I'm well aware that the "big switch", or actually switch BACK was when the FE's came out after the Y blocks. As far as why ford went back to a front mounted distributor, your reasoning may not be the exact reason the engineers that designed the motors would specify for going to different layout of the distributors. I grew up in a 67 390 FE cyclone GT convertible. The FE took the ideas from the Y block, and improved upon them. I've never had a Y block ford, but my Father has had a few. From what I have read and heard about Y blocks, I'm, glad I have not had one. Obviously the same specs would not be used on different brands of cams. The reason the point is now moot is that no new GM or Ford vehicles have distributors now. All are DIS, or Distributor-less Ignition Systems now. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: June-16-2010 at 1:32am
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what's the problem with Y blocks? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-16-2010 at 10:02am
Luch, Two issues plagued the Y block but to what extent I don't know. Besides my own experience with my 312, I listen and learn from a group of Y block enthusiasts. Every year at one of our ACBS chapters wood boat shows, a group of Y block guys from the AACA (Antique Auto Club of America) show up with Thunderbirds, Mercurys and even Y block F100's. One year they spotted my marine 312 and ever since search me out and we talk Y block even if I'm not showing that boat that year!! The cam breakage information problem came from this group. One of them is a retired Ford engineer who actually worked on the design/production of the Y block. He said the breakage was extreamly low but when he moved on to the design of the FE block, Ford decided to be safe and move the distributor to the front. This removed lots of the cam center loading. Ford had done lots of experimenting with the cam manufacturing/production process but really never solved the breakage issue. The other issue was the routing of the oil. The Y block oil goes to the cam first and then to the rocker arms. If poor quality oil or oil changes not made on a timely basis, then the port from the cam to the rocker shaft would get plugged starving the rockers. This problem was infrequent as well but solved with external oil lines bypassing the area that was plugging. Kits are even available. So, disregard Tom's comment since getting the information first hand from a Ford design engineer is not a assumption!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: June-16-2010 at 2:26pm
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Luch, here is an article about Y blocks, and the issues they had.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Y-block_engine Mostly it wasn't really an issue with the cam's, but rather an issue with the oils used at the time, exacerbated by infrequent oil changes. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: tommer12
Date Posted: June-20-2010 at 2:41pm
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Did you figure out how to time the protech? I had to pull mine out when I did my intake and Im pretty sure I will have to retime it. It sounds like if you get it close, then plug it back in, it will auto adjust it to the correct time correct?
I know, it should be replaced.. but it works for now... so I will run with it. Thanks! ------------- 84 SN, 92 SNOB, 2005 SANTE 2006 SN 206 |
Posted By: clibat2
Date Posted: June-23-2010 at 3:49pm
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Took the boat out on the water after getting it to start in the driveway. It ran great and sounded great. The only issue I am having is at the top end. After running around slowly for 1/2 hour to give it some break-in time, I started to open it up and the boat topped out at about 35 MPH. There was more RPM left in the motor, but it wouldn't make me move any faster. Not sure why yet, but overall the major hurdles seem to be over. Thanks for all help provided!! ------------- Candlewood Lake, Western Connecticut |