S.O.S
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17381
Printed Date: November-21-2024 at 7:45pm
Topic: S.O.S
Posted By: vondy
Subject: S.O.S
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 12:24am
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Finally got a chance to bring the Mustang out for the fist time this year. Adjusted the timing and tuned in the new Holley 4 barrel. Just before we were ready to leave I decided we should see what she would do at WOT. Everything was running great, engine sounded beautiful. Had her at WOT for probably less than 10 seconds.
Went back to idle, looked at my temp gauge and it was almost maxed out! Opened up the box and the entire bilge was filled with water! I turned on the pump and headed for the ramp before we sank, water just kept flowing in. The temperature was moving down as we were moving, and moving fast, water was going everywhere. To shorten the story a bit, we set her on the ramp while I got the truck backed down and pulled her out. I'm thinking hose blew out, hole in the bottom, who knows. All the hoses are intact, as they should be since they are new. Finally I noticed something sitting on top of the starter. It's a plug! From the engine block. Popped right out. I never even new it existed. I guess the pressure from WOT and the fact that it looks pretty old just was too much for it. Well I bumped the engine to see if it would turn over and she wanted to start right up. But I didn't. So there was hope. Until I got home and checked the oil. It's white. I pulled off the flame arrestor and water was dripping out. My guess is with the water flying around in the engine box it sucked it right in. Well hell. What do I do now? Is there any hope or did I kill the H.M.? Is there anything I can do right now to minimize the damage? Drain the oil? The manifolds where hot, water sizzled off of them. And what is this plug I knew nothing about? Never saw a reference to it in the manual. Anyway, bad day, thanks for any help! ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Replies:
Posted By: SN206
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 12:31am
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Have you tried calling Jim ar Greg? ------------- ...those who have fallen and those who will. |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 12:32am
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I'd change the oil, replace the plug and get it running. It sounds like a freeze plug that pulled out? I had that happen once, but caught it sooner. I had slowed down to an idle and noticed the bilge pump come on. I never did find the plug or figure out why it came out. ------------- |
Posted By: MdFooter
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 12:43am
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 12:46am
There's the plug. Is the oil white from water? Does it even make sense that water would get into the oil from the intake? Would it not go straight to the combustion and vaporize? Or did I blow my intake gasket? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 12:48am
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And how fast should I be moving on this? I'm sure I'm not going to get to anything till tomorrow after work.
------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: MdFooter
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 12:57am
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 12:57am
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It just hit me. The oil pan was completely submerged in water and I have an oil leak towards the rear. It's either the oil pan gasket back there or the rear seal. My guess is that's how the water got in.
Thanks for the help guys  , I'm calmly freaking out.  ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: MdFooter
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 1:00am
At least you weren't in salt water...........  ------------- KP 1st http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2723&yrstart=1981&yrend=1985" rel="nofollow - 85 Nautique 2nd |
Posted By: SN206
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 1:11am
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I'm asking because I don't know, but should the trainy be a concern also if the boat had that much water in it? ------------- ...those who have fallen and those who will. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 1:26am
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Thats one of those cheap quick fix freeze plugs. Drain the oil asap, refill,pull the plugs put some oil in the cylinders and turn it over to coat the cylinder walls. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 1:40am
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Go get another temp freeze plug for now,and get it running as soon as you can. Keep an eye on it in case it's still taking on water and see where to go from there.You might have to change oil a couple of times. One of the worst things to do to a motor, no load,cold oil, and wide open, but you know that... now. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: MartyMabe
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 1:53am
Yeah, that freeze plug is a back-yard mechanics quick fix. You tighten up the nut and it expands the rubber to form the seal. We got guys that come in all the time to get those for their 'hoopdees'  Change the oil a couple of times and check that tranny fluid too!That motor is rock solid, wouldn't worry about her.------------- 66 Skylark http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5041" rel="nofollow - 93 SN If you're not living in NC, you're just camping out! |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 3:25am
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Thanks guys, I'll change the oil as soon as I can. How do you think the water got in there? Could I be right about the oil pan? Talked to my dad and he doesn't think that much water would have gotten in in that short of a time unless I blew a head gasket or cracked the block.
I understand the freeze plug now. Thought that expanding rubber one seemed like a bad idea, I'm surprised its just now coming out. How do I replace with a metal one? Rubber mallet? Skidim says to freeze them first. If I'm going to flush the oil a couple of times, can I do the flushing with a cheaper oil, or do I need to use the VR-1 for all of it? Thanks again! ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 8:49am
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David,
Go with some cheap oil for the flushing. Run it for about 10 minutes till it's up to temp and change it. Someone at Skidim must be smoking something again. Brass has a very high thermal coefficient close to aluminum. IE: it transfers heat/cold very well. Put the core plug in the freezer and by the time you get it to the hole it will be warm!! Do a "how to search" on line. I remember seeing a real nice tutorial with pictures on the install. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 10:40am
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David - Use some locktite sealant on the freeze plug when you install it. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 10:51am
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If you had water on sizzling on the exhaust manifolds then it got pretty hot. Possible scenario-core plug popped messing up the cooling, it got hot and maybe blew a head gasket?
Hope not, good luck. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 11:12am
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I found some info on installing the plug. Of course this plug is right over the starter. Even pulling the starer it will be hard do drive a plug into. Wondering if I would need to pull the engine?
A compression test should tell me if I blew a head gasket right? Being that my manifolds are aluminum, wouldn't they get hotter quicker than the cast iron? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: WakeSlayer
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 2:30pm
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I do not understand how you could get enough water to turn the oil white just from a bad rear seal or oil pan gasket. Unfortunately, I think there are bigger problems in there. ------------- Mike N 1968 Mustang |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 2:57pm
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I was thinking the same. Going home at lunch to test the compression. See if I blew a head gasket. If that's the case, is there a reason to change the oil? What would the next step be? What does a head gasket job usually cost? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 5:25pm
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Compression test is done.
All between 110-130. Median being 120. Cylinder 3 was the lowest at 110 and it's opposing cylinder, no. 7, was 130. Spark plugs looked great. The oil level on the dip stick seems to be right at where it was before I went out. But white of course. There is also white oil under the oil cap. What do you fellas make of that? What do y'all make of that? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 5:38pm
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David,
How "white" is the oil? Can you describe it? Does it look like it blended with the oil meaning you have lots of water or is this just white on the dip stick and under the fill cap. I'd change the oil and see what it looks like. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 5:51pm
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It has that curdled milky white look. When I pull the dip stick, I don't see any signs of "regular" oil. All white. As is under the oil cap and pcv valve.
I have not had time to dig any deeper than that. I will flush it after work and post the results. Is it possible to blow the intake gasket and get water in the oil from there? What if I screwed up my installation of that? There was no water in the oil after I ran it in the driveway, but this was the first time under load. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-03-2010 at 6:18pm
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running it under load wouldn't have blown the gasket. Flush it out but new oil in run it at temp in the drive check the did stick ever so often and if it starts looking milky again turn it off and find a new block to rebuild with. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-04-2010 at 12:15am
Here's what's coming out.
 ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: May-04-2010 at 12:23am
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Could the block have frozen? ------------- |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-04-2010 at 12:40am
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Vondy post a pic on your spark plugs too see how good they look please. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: May-04-2010 at 12:45am
And this is why I would not spend too much time repairing that freeze plug,just go get another of what fell out for now. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
79nautique wrote:Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-04-2010 at 1:47am
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I'll post a pic of a plug tomorrow, done for the night. All of them were dry and clean.
I don't think the block would have frozen. I drained her before any freezing weather hit. Also, when I installed the carb, she ran for quite a while in the yard while tuning her. The oil was fine then. All I got was the oil drained tonight. My pump takes forever and never get's it all. I have to drain the rest into the bilge with oil absorbing towels below. I have a drain hose but realized there is no possible way to get it installed with the engine in the boat. So tomorrow I hope to put some fresh oil in and start the flushing process. Gary I got a new rubber freeze plug in place for now. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-04-2010 at 2:42am
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if the plugs are dry I dont think you have a cracked head or cylinder.. you could pull the intake and inspect there for leaks. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-04-2010 at 3:19am
I was wondering the same. What if I messed up the installation... don't know how. Used the right gasket, permatex high temp, torqued the bolts to spec in the correct order. One problem I was having before the "incident" was when I would gun it from a standstill, there was an intimidate pause. Then it would kick right in. Once it kicked in it was great, but there was always a half second pause. I figured it was a timing or carb issue and never got a chance to figure it out before the freeze plug blew out. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-04-2010 at 9:08am
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David,
Now that I see the oil, Something major happened. That much water did not get in there from being injested down the intake. You said the rubber plug came from the aft starboard side correct? The starboard block drain is up front and I'm thinking there was some water left in the block. Did you lower the jack stand on the trailer when drining that side? Did you antifreeze the engine? Did you probe the drain holes for sediment? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: May-04-2010 at 10:06am
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Im with Pete. I really do have a 55 gallon drum filled with the a creamy milkshake. doesnt look good. someone put that expansion rubber plug in there for a reason, back up and think about it ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: May-04-2010 at 10:41am
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I agree guy's but he did run it for a season with that plug. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-04-2010 at 11:02am
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depending on how much water got in the bilge and depending on the condition of the seal, it did sit with the water level high while getting the tow vehicle it's possible, as well has getting it too hot creating a problem that wasn't there before.
First course of action needs to be getting fresh oil back in and the motor heated up and dried out internally. If the milk returns then it has to come apart, we can all guess about the condition of the block but until it's fired with fresh oil it's all speculation and guessing. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-04-2010 at 11:07am
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That plug has been in the boat since I got it. In 2008. So it ran just fine for 2 seasons. And it ran fine in the driveway this year, if that really means anything not having any load on it.
The first signs of water in the oil was after the plug came out. It's possible it happened as soon as we got her on the water, I just didn't check it until after we got back. How low of temperature does it take to freeze a block? The boat was stored covered, with the engine box in place. We had a pretty cold winter here. I drained the block as my boat sits, which is pretty level. I might have lowered it to make sure the water exited the bilge but I don't remember for sure. No antifreeze. Should I continue and flush the oil? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-04-2010 at 11:11am
OK there's my answer to that. I'll put some fresh oil in after work and get her going. Thanks guys! ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: dchris17
Date Posted: May-04-2010 at 2:36pm
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Oddly enough, I had a similar experience this year with the same crappy rubber plug in my Mustang 17.
I replaced it with a proper freeze plug and everything seems fine now, but it was scary when it came out cuz I thought I had sunk the boat (I was at least 5 miles from my trailer when it happened). In the end, it made for a good swim towing the boat (1/4 mile) and cost about $5 to fix. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=917" rel="nofollow - My 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.trooptrack.com" rel="nofollow - TroopTrack : The Best Scouting Software |
Posted By: SN206
Date Posted: May-04-2010 at 3:01pm
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David, I've been following this post and it's been breaking my heart. The "red boat" was one of my favorites last year. I live over by Texas Motor Speedway and if there is aanything I can do it help, just let me know and I'll shoot over. ------------- ...those who have fallen and those who will. |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-04-2010 at 3:18pm
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Thanks Ryan, I appreciate your concern. You mentioned a couple of guys early in the post. Are they some of your buddies at Buxton? Or is that the guys from the forum?
------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: SN206
Date Posted: May-04-2010 at 3:38pm
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Greg is Buxton's lead mechanic, he also builds motors on the side. He's a wrench guy and could likely help. Jim (Buxton) retired and no longer works uo there but he may know where an old block is if it's a worse case scenerio. ------------- ...those who have fallen and those who will. |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-04-2010 at 3:49pm
Sweet, that was my going to be my next question if this turned out worst case, who locally can work on the motor. Hopefully it won't come to that but good to know in case. Great help as always! ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 12:33am
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So i have her running with fresh oil. I hope shes ok cus she sounds really good. Not sure if she will get up to temp in the yard, been going around 15 minutes and still just above 120.
Checked the stick and there was a small bit of white. Figured it would take at least two flushes to get all out. Thoughts? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 12:37am
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Did you drain he oil filter too??
If the oil gets warm enough water will evaporate through the valve cover vents. Keep it running until it reaches operating temp. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: SN206
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 12:43am
My fingers are crossed!  ------------- ...those who have fallen and those who will. |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 12:44am
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No i was just about to mention that. I have a new one and was going to change on a second flush. What rpm should i hold her at. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 12:54am
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Seem to be getting a knock when i go to restart. Goes away after she cranks. Could it have anything to do with the different oil, or is it a bad sign? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 1:04am
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recheck the spark plugs, crank the engine without them and watch for any water coming out the cylinders, usually the ones on the back of the engine. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 1:41am
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Well it was worth a try, Luchog your right. Water blasting out of number 4.
So where does that leave me? Blown head gasket most probably? Intake, I keep hoping? Number 4 is right next to the water passage that dead ends into the side of the head. Whatever it is, I'll have a ton of questions that's for sure. Right now I am letting next 5 gallon milkshake drain. Thanks again! ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 1:47am
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WAIT!!!!
Take the plug out, give it a few more cranks, inspect with a light inside the plug hole, if water's dripping from above, it could be a crack on the head. What you want to do next it take out the exhaust manifold (watch number 4 runner for water signs) and have it water pressure tested, then you pull the intake and see if any water got over the gasket, then you pull the head and have it tested too, inspect the gasket and mating surfaces for water paths. After you pull the head turn the engine until piston 4 gets bdc and inspect the cylinder for cracks/water lines. I had a head cracked above the valve seat, cylinder had good compression but water and oil mixed, and cylinder filled with water after shut down. If all tests OK then you are looking for a new block., so hope something's wrong!!!! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: SN206
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 2:27am
 ------------- ...those who have fallen and those who will. |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 2:30am
There's a good chance you already had some litte water coming in the cylinder, but when you hammered it, the cylinder compressed, keeping the water out and the plug dry, therefore igniting. Was it hard to re-start after shutdown? Did the starter turn slowly at first or felt like kicking and then gained speed? Wasnt this the reason you switched to a 4bbl??? A thin crack on a head could be it, which worsened after your last wot run. That would explain both the water in the oil and the water inside the cylinder. A hole in the exhaust manifold jacket would lead water inside the cylinder too, but not that much through the rings to mess the oil. So you could have a cracked head alone, or a head/exhaust combo. if not the intake gasket wich would be the most optimistical option being a cylinder sleeve a very bad one, and a block galley the worst one. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 4:06am
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I checked the plug hole and don't see any water dripping. On the compression the cylinder was filled with water up to the hole. I can pull the intake next and inspect.
Is there anything I can do in the mean time to help prevent any damage? Obviously everything is coated with wet oil. There was a point in our trip out this weekend where it took a bit to get her started after sitting. But I doubt it was happening last year cus there was never any water in the oil until this weekend. I'm wondering at what point do I haul it to a pro and have them figure it out. Any ideas on what it would cost me to get back on the water? If it's the intake manifold $30 - $200. Other than that, I don't know. My understanding is that the head gasket involves machining. No idea what a new block would cost. I assume it's an entire rebuild at that point. Ryan, might be calling one of your buddies after a little more inspection. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: SN206
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 11:15am
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David, I sent Greg an email with brief details and said you might be contacting him ------------- ...those who have fallen and those who will. |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 11:27am
Unless your rings are REALLY worn, water wont get through them to the oil pan. Water is mixing with oil elsewhere. Water inside the cylinder and water in the oil could be 2 faces of the same coin (Cracked cylinder head or block) but they could be 2 different things also. you assumed you had a flooding carb when you probably already had water inside the cylinder and the guys discussed carbs and intakes for 4-5 pages, then you assumed your plugs were good without checking the cylinders and some more pages rolled in. Now re-read my last 2 post and please ask any questions, I believe it's pretty much covered there, but please stop making assumptions based on hunchs because they are costing you money and wont lead you to any solutions in the short range. What you take post something as a statement, other guys assume you know what you are talking about. Sorry if I sounded harsh, we need to work on facts, take many pictures while you take it apart. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 11:41am
Drain all water from the block there is one draining plug on eah side of the block. Now if you already drained the oil you wont be able to crank the water inside the cylinder out through the plug hole, so you'll soak it up once you tear into the head. do you have any spare time today??? IT'S WRENCHING TIME!!! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 12:18pm
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ok lets back up a second before things get torn apart. The possibility exists that the water in 4 four came from another source besides a cracked head, faulty intake gasket, or a blown head gasket. Yes they are all valid points, But since he didn't see any new water after it was blown out, and if it was leaking from a gasket or crack then there would have been much more water.
I suggest draining the oil again and installing the new filter, fire it back up again and double checking everything a second time. If water shows up again and again there is water in number 4 cyclinder, then pull the intake and have a professional install it, easy thing to mess up, the intake has to go straight down, you can't slide it into place and not have a problem. So drain and refill and see if you get the same results a second time if so then it'll be time to get the wrenches out and remove the exhaust manifold and have it pressure tested, if that is good then the intake needs to come off and inspect the area around the water jacket port. You did put a nice bead of RTV around the port with no gaps and on both sides of the gasket when you installed it didn't you? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 12:38pm
sorry but I missed when he stated that???? Anyway we agree the intake and exhaust manifold need to come out. Vondy did you crank until there wasnt any water coming out of number 4?? if so, did you crank it again after a while and more water came out? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 12:47pm
Yes after a while I went back and turned the engine over, I did not start it, and there was water in number 4. Clear water, lots of it. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 12:59pm
I followed all directions and aligned the intake straight down using the cut off head bolt trick Gary recommended. The instructions said to put a thin bead of RTV around the water port. That's what I did. Your also supposed to keep the RTV away from the intake port and that's pretty tough being that that port is right up against the water port. So I kept it thin. I set the intake down on the fresh RTV and just barely tighten the bolts. Then waited an hour, like the instructions said, then torqued to 28-32 lbs. Being that the intake is the easiest to remove, and cheapest fix if the problem, should I remove it first? It's got to come off anyway if the problem is deeper. Other than the manifold I guess. And of course I don't have any spare time right now. Not even going to be in town this weekend. Isn't that always the case? So I can only do anything after work. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 1:02pm
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you could do as 79 suggest and double check everything one more time, it wont hurt, IMHO it's a waste of time and energy.
I'd take the exhaust manifold out and have some pressurised water through it from the water inlet, see if any water comes out of the 4th runner. Then pull the intake, look for any paths of water around the water and the intake ports. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 1:32pm
How would I go about pressurizing the exhaust manifold? Details that is. I understand the concept. Not sure how I would block passages off. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 1:42pm
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you feed water through the manifold inlet with a hose, as it is feeded by the engine normally, watch if any water is dripping from the 4th runner, you could stand the manifold so that the 4th runner has some extra pressure. Giving it more water in than what it can take out will build pressure inside.
I'm not familiar with the H&M manifold, if it has any external hose sending water to the elbow/riser you could block it so pressure it's generated inside the manifold. how? with your thumb? Ideally you would do this with hot water so the manifold gets warm as in operating temp. You could also take the elbow/riser apart and test the manifold without it, I'd try to avoid doing so if possible, but again, I'm not familiar with the H&M manifolds. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: heath
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 2:01pm
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Hey guys.. been a while since I posted. This thread reminded me of the nightmare I had when I was restoring my 66 baracuda ss. I will say first that I know nothing about the Holman Moody Engine. However, I had the exact same problem with my poly 318!! My crankcase was filling up with oil extremely quickly (This was a reman 318 long block) I removed the intake and heads thinking I had blown a head gasket. I installed new head gaskets and intake gaskets. This still did not correct the problem As a last resort, I removed the timing cover, remembering I had installed a new gasket there when reassembling the engine. As it turned out, the timing cover gasket had a spot about an inch long where the gasket had failed. Since the water flows through the timing cover, it was leaking through the area where the gasket had failed, and quickly filling up my crankcase. I don't know how the cooling system on the Holman Moody is configured, but if it is similar, this could be the case. ------------- 'cuda |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 2:02pm
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Ok leave the intake alone for the moment, pull the exhaust manifold, disconnec the feed hose at the t-stat house, that way you have some length basicly all you have to do is fill it up with water and look for leaks, have the putlet of the riser facing towards the ski, have the end of the hose higher than the exit of the riser now start pouring water down the hose to fill the manifols, watch the riser area and stop adding water right before the water would start to flow over the lip on the exhaust, the outer ring/cavity is where the water will be as your looking into the riser, you'll see the cavity were the exhaust gas normally exits (inner most id) then you'll see a wall and another cavity outside of that and between the outter casting's wall this is the area the water will start to fill last so don't let it flow over the wall otherwise it's just going to run down into the runners and be harder to tell where the leak is. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: heath
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 2:06pm
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If I may add.. The engine ran fine for some time before this occured. It happened suddenly (reason I thought it could have been head gasket etc.) ------------- 'cuda |
Posted By: heath
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 2:14pm
Hope this works.. Actually, it was the part that bolts directly to the timing cover that directs the cooling water to either side of the engine... The water was getting though the gasket and going through the hole you see there in the middle (on the timing cover above), and into the crankcase.. ------------- 'cuda |
Posted By: heath
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 2:15pm
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Again, the HM Engine is probably entirely different.. but hey its the thought that counts right?? ------------- 'cuda |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 2:19pm
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hey Heath, you should post your boat in the diaries!!! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: heath
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 2:57pm
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http://correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11780&KW=finally+some+pics&title=span-classhighlightfinally-span-span-classhighlightsome-span-span-classhighlightpics-span - http://correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11780&KW=finally+some+pics&title=span-classhighlightfinally-span-span-classhighlightsome-span-span-classhighlightpics-span
Working on getting my boat posted in the diaries.. been meaning to do that for a long time.. The link above should direct you to some pictures I posted some time ago. Also currently have a '96 sport nautique ------------- 'cuda |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 5:18pm
That's a great looking boat Heath, very classy. Wish mine was half that nice, hell now I just wish mine would run.  ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: heath
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 5:27pm
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Thanks! I know the feeling.. Having something wrong and not knowing how to fix it is very disturbing to me... especially when your crankcase is filling up with oil. Best of luck. Wish I could help more.. ------------- 'cuda |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 5:27pm
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Vondy if you have an extra manifold and riser laying around or if one of the Buxon marine boys that have helped in the past could loan you one, swap out the HM for a know good one, fire it up and see if you still have water in the oil. It just might be easier than trying to find the crack in yours. But regardless try and change the oil just to get the water out of it if you have time until you can spend some time working on the exhaust manifolds. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 5:55pm
Are you saying I should run it for a short period of time with fresh oil and a filter just to coat everything with clean oil? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: heath
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 5:58pm
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Vondy,
Pulled this picture off of a recent post here.. Looks like this old 351 had the same type setup for the timing cover that my poly does.. It may be worth looking into if your exhaust manifolds don't turn out to be the culprit.. If there is any part of that gasket that fails, water can find its way into your engine.. Its easy to check and does not take much time at all.. 
Heath ------------- 'cuda |
Posted By: heath
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 6:00pm
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correction: "any part" meaning the part of the gasket that surrounds the water jacket. ------------- 'cuda |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 10:11pm
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IMO the exhaust manifolds are not the culprit here, but an intake leak, cracked head or block are. We are possibly after 2 different issues.
You need more water in the crank to mess that much oil than what a leaky exhaust manifold can drip in at stops, unless that cylinder has no piston rings left. The leaky exhaust could be the cause he had a start up problem before because of water inside the cylinder, but that water could, or could have not gotten through past the rings. Pressure test the manifold, I like my way better to find if it's cracked, and then 79's better for finding the crack. I suggest you do both. Vondy in your diaries you wrote you had your starter rebuilt, was it after the hard cranking issue started? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 10:16pm
Luciano, I'm really leaning this way too. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 11:45pm
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Regardless of what the cause is, should I run the thing with some fresh oil in to coat it up? Or is it pointless?
The starter never cranked well until I had it rebuilt. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-05-2010 at 11:55pm
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If you are gonna get your hands on the engine soon it's pointless, now if you plan to leave it like that resting per months, yeah, go for it. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-06-2010 at 12:02am
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It won't sit for months in one piece. I plan on breaking whatever I need to down to find out what's wrong. But depending on whats wrong with it, it may not run for months. Depending on the cost. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-06-2010 at 12:12am
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if it makes your mind rest easier do it, have you taken the exhaust out yet? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-06-2010 at 12:39am
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I've done nothing yet since this morning, that's how much free time I have.
And this morning I unhooked everything to run the motor such as fuel line, thermostat, wires, etc., to clear the way for parts to come off. I'm anxious to get things apart and figure out if I'm going to get her on the lake again this year or not. So I'm relying on your expert opinions, will fresh oil matter, would it even matter with water leaking in? Thanks guys ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-06-2010 at 1:09am
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go take that exhaust out, we can worry about the oil later
I feel I'm more anxious than you are, perhaps because it wont be me paying the bills this time!!! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-06-2010 at 11:38am
What y'all got some bets going on who's right? 
I took the manifold off this morning, much easier than I thought. I was expecting seized up bolts but they came right out. Did what 79 suggested by facing the riser exit up and pouring water from the front. I'm going check it after work and see is there is any water collected. Obviously water poured out of the number 4 exhaust. Looking in the engine, there's also water pooled on top of the closed exhaust valve. I suspect that is what's to be suspected when pumping water through your cylinder. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-06-2010 at 12:05pm
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Well from my stand point, don't see if the intake gasket water ports failed how that would allow water on top of the valve, A cracked head yes, but the exhaust manifold and it's aluminum walls seem like better betting odds to me.
regarding the oil I was just refering to draining and putting new back in and not starting or turning it over. I wouldn't turn over the engine unless you drain the block first to prevent more water getting into the crank case. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-06-2010 at 1:25pm
Everyone loves pictures.
Where the freeze plug popped out. 
79... when I pulled the exhaust manifold off, water poured out of it. So I figured that the water on top of the valve was from me turning the engine over, without cranking, a few times to check the cylinder. Water get's pushed out the exhaust valve and flows back down to rest on top. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-06-2010 at 1:40pm
you better hope non of us is right!!! Unless you have SEVERE valve play on the guides, it's not very alike you have water going up the valve. we are looking at two different problems here. 1 is water on the cylinder, 2 is water in the oil. It might, or might not come from the same source. Post the results on the exhaust leakdown test, if it turns out good, try the other method as well just to be sure. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-06-2010 at 1:58pm
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you need to till the other end down, the riser's water outlet inside of the elbow has to be the highest point, right now your not really test anything because all of the water is in the elbow area and no water can get up around the runners to see if they are cracked. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-06-2010 at 2:40pm
I'll do that when I get home 79. Anyone ever blocked the exit passage and used compressed air in the inlet to test? Not sure how you would seal it, kind of an odd shape. Here's my "optimistic theory", and I know it's just my theory and probably does not mean a thing but it keeps me less depressed over my dead boat. Lets say either I really screwed up the install of the intake manifold or the overheating warped the aluminum or something... could that water be pushing out into the intake chamber putting water in the cylinder and moving down into the engine mixing with the oil? Like this. 
Again, just talking, not saying it's even possible. I got to think about something all day at work don't I? If the exhaust manifold checks out I'll pull the intake off next and find out I guess. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-06-2010 at 3:04pm
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David,
If you do find water on the exhaust side of the manifold, the next step is to pull the riser elbow off the manifold. Use patience and plenty of penetrating oil with those aluminum castings. I have first hand knowledge that the riser elbows have a thin weak spot that can crack out from improper draining but also burn through with age and or overheating. You'll see 2 plugs at the bottom of the exhaust elbow next to each other. One goes to the exhaust and the other to the water jacket. The bad spot is inside right in the area of those two plug holes. How's your TIG welding? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-06-2010 at 3:10pm
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Vondy if you're bored at work here's my msn. Luchog01@hotmail.com ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-06-2010 at 3:14pm
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Thanks Luchog, I'm not actually bored, busy in fact, just trying to keep the positive thoughts flowing. If I do get some downtime I'll IM you. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-06-2010 at 11:11pm
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OK, if I did this right, that exhaust manifold has a leak. I put the riser higher than the intake hose, filled the hose until I could see water in the riser drain plug hole. Water came out of number 1. The lowest. And all of them if I leveled it out.
So, if I did it right and my exhaust manifold is leaking, is it possible that's it or do I need to keep digging deeper? Damn I really like the look of these manifolds, hope I can repair or find some more. It really makes the H/M. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-07-2010 at 2:06am
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Got the bolts loosened on the manifolds, of course they won't come apart. Any hints on getting the risers to separate? I was thinking about using a putty knife and slowly digging away at the gasket. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-07-2010 at 9:26am
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David,
It sounds like you did the water test correctly as long as you didn't get the water high enough for it to enter the exhaust cavity via the ports in the riser elbow. These are the holes between the water jacket and the exhaust side where water enters the exhaust stream. It's why Chris told you to raise the riser elbow end higher. Good you have the bolts loose. Try running them out against the elbow to the point where they start "jacking" against the elbow. Don't put too much pressure on them. You don't want to damage the aluminum threads is possible (they may not be in decent shape now). Then go at it with a putty knife. Then a wood chisel. If you damage ether face no big deal because I'd say they are going to need refacing anyway. When you get them apart, you'll need to see if it's the manifold or the riser. Stand the manifold on end hose side down and fill the water jacket up to the top (elbow flange end). Take a close look inside the elbow near the two plug holes I mentioned. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-07-2010 at 11:02am
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So what do you guys think? Are we looking for two problems? Could that much water possibly get into the oil from the leaky manifold? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-07-2010 at 11:37am
This question is really still up in the air!! Just as Lunciano said, it's hard to imagine you'd get that much water past the rings. However, I have no idea how much water it really takes to turn oil as milky as you found yours. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: May-07-2010 at 12:01pm
David, This is great advise and in a perfect world will work BUT I've taken a set of H/M's apart that looked about as bad as yours do and do yourself a favor and drop them off at a machine shop that is better equiped to do this job. I tried everything above but what happens is even if you get the putty knife between the riser and the manifold they will still not want to come apart because the bolts are corroded in the flange holes. I ended up cutting mine off and then had to drill and ez out the studs out of the manifolds, on some of them that still didn't work so I had to step up my drill sizes and then run a tap down the holes . It all worked out fine but you will spend hours on them and make a bigger mess of them than you can imagine. If you don't have the tools this is a big PITA. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: vondy
Date Posted: May-07-2010 at 12:52pm
Hum.... Should I pull some more parts off or fix the exhaust and see what happens? I like the idea of borrowing another manifold but I don't know anyone. Might have to give Ryan's buddies a call.
Just thinking out loud here..... Perhaps the manifold has been leaking for a while, giving me some starting problems as some have mentioned. I did have to open up the throttle to start after sitting on Sunday's trip. I figured I just did not have the carb tuned in yet. Maybe the overheating compounded the problem to the point where much more water got into the cylinder. If I shut the boat down and it happens that that cylinders exhaust valve is open then the water could have pooled into the cylinder. Again, not knowing if it's enough to milkshake the oil. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4645&sort=&pagenum=1 - 69 Mustang HM |