Carburetor Wedge Plate
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1790
Printed Date: November-26-2024 at 7:48am
Topic: Carburetor Wedge Plate
Posted By: bfoottank89
Subject: Carburetor Wedge Plate
Date Posted: June-02-2005 at 4:53pm
| I have an '89 Barefoot with a 454cid and a 650 cfm Holley and was wondering where I could get a carburetor wedge plate to allow the carb to work in a plumb level position. I have had no luck in finding one with enough angle or manifold clearance to work. Help. |
Replies:
Posted By: captan1
Date Posted: June-05-2005 at 8:49pm
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I purchased one at www.glen-l.com ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=452&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978 - 1978 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: June-21-2005 at 4:08am
| Check your other post. I've offered 4 places to find these wedge plates/tilt shims. Good Luck! |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: June-21-2005 at 6:32pm
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waiste of money and time, it's not really needed if you have your carb adjusted correctly. If it was an issue it would have been fixed long ago by the factory. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: June-21-2005 at 7:34pm
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I have suspected this. It looks strange to have the carb setting at a steep angle but like 79 said, the factory did not have a problem with it. ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: captan1
Date Posted: June-21-2005 at 9:13pm
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Yea....points where good enough but almost everyone that can has upgraded.
I have a wedge plate I bought and installed, makes it look right, and if the motor stumbles, chokes, dies or floods my first thought won't be the angle of the carb that can be leveled so easy. Fix it on the trailer not on the water. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=452&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978 - 1978 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: June-22-2005 at 12:09pm
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No I won't look at the wedge plate as a problem either, if it stumbles I would look at the accellorator pump, if it chokes and die's I would look at the choke stat and power to the choke stat, and if it floods I would look at the float leavel. If your carb is adjusted correctly and is in clean ungummed condition then a wedge plate will add nothing or improve the performance and actually it will take away from the performance since it will drop the carb or reduce the area of atomization creating a less dense fuel charge in the cumbustion chamber. Raw fuel or liquid fuel will not burn, gas vabors/fumes burn and raising the carb (spacer plate) gives the fuel charge more time to atomize or vaborize creating a denser fuel charge in the combustion chamber. Why do you thing that invented high rise manifolds? Again a wedge plate is a waiste of money and time. But then again if you can't set your carb correctly or find a QUALITY mechanic that does then maybe a wedge plate would help. I rebuilt my carb three years ago and still to this day I have not had to adjust anything and I'll bet you can not turn 5k rpm with a acme 470 prop or 6K rpm with the stock 13 X 13 federal prop or go well over 55 mph with either prop. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: emitchum
Date Posted: June-22-2005 at 1:47pm
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In many marine motor installations, the engine is often set at some angle from the horizontal. This is quite unlike, for example, an automotive installation where the engine is basically level most of the time. Since gasoline engine carburetors are intended for level operation, the tilt shim is used to bring the carburetor back to its correct plane of operation. Tilt shims are available for many different angles depending on the installation angle. They are also available for a wide range of carburetors and number of barrels or throats. If the engine is mounted horizontally, a tilt shim is not necessary.
this is from Glen-I web site. my 79 barefoot came with a wedge plate and it still has one. i could not imagine the carb not sitting close to level. ------------- 1979 Barefoot/454 |
Posted By: captan1
Date Posted: June-22-2005 at 2:13pm
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Amen emitchum,
79nautique, I think everyone that reads this agrees with you on your troubleshooting for each situation, although a wedge plate isn't a cure all for carburetor problems, it is a way to possibly eliminate the need to do a special float adjustment over the standard text book spec and it just puts the carb on the level, I like that. You know a wedge plate raises the carb in the rear to level, I don't think you meant lowers the front somehow. Bottom line, I don't want to mess with stuff on the water, a level carb is what I wanted, hence the wedge plate and it's by product is more intake charge volume because it "raises" your carb to level it especially the rear side so bada bing,,,you do it your way and I'll do it my way. I've got some hop up parts on including a secret wedge plate, maybe someday I'll give 10k rpm and 900 mph a try. Just kidding  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=452&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978 - 1978 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: June-22-2005 at 4:12pm
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I guess cars never go up step inclines and if they do then they are sure to run poorly because the carb isn't level any more, if you are trying to fix your boat on the water then you really should have never gone out in the first place. When I'm out on the water I'm out there to have fun and not work on the boat. I would be curious to compare a wedge plate to a 1 inch spacer and I'll lay money on it that the back of your wedge plate is the same thickness in the rear as the spacer and substancually shorter in the front so I really don't see how that is going to improve the charge with less volume.
Oh and you can stop by and I'll show you a nautique that does 60 mph, I have a lot of go fast goodies already bolted on and a wedge plate isn't one of them or NOS. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: skyhawkflyer
Date Posted: June-22-2005 at 4:19pm
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captan1 and 79nautique, you are both very correct. Correct Craft did away with the angled spacer plate when they found foat adjustments will work for a carb sitting at an angle.
Personally, I o-hauled my carb and spent a little time setting it up and it works great. No complaints! But should my engine ever fail, it'll be replaced with a fuel injection V-8. End of all fuel problems! ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: June-22-2005 at 4:21pm
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Unless it is a front wheel drive an automotive engine isn't level unless you are going down a slight grade and when sitting on level ground will be 5-10 degrees tilted, granted this is far less than what you would see on a boat and if it is fuel injected it makes no difference. The only thing that a wedge plate can do is change the float level in the primary bowl and add to the fuel volume in the primary bowl but if you are draining the primary bowl and are using a wedge to correct it then you really don't have the carb adjusted correctly to start with. I'm sure that wedge plate is going to gain you alot of top end speed and low end torq.
NOT ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: skyhawkflyer
Date Posted: June-22-2005 at 4:43pm
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The rear bowl is the float that gets adjusted for whether or not your running a wedge plate. Your front float is going to stay relatively level when inverted, reguardless of what your running. The wedge plate does nothing for you on bottom end or thru mid throttle. If anything, you'd probably have a differnce in mixtures between the front and rear throttle plates, because the rear mixture has farther to flow to the intake manifold with better atomization than the front. ------------- |
Posted By: captan1
Date Posted: June-22-2005 at 5:00pm
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It just adds to the carb being level and that can't hurt anything, it's not meant to be a hi-performance add on, it's about a 3/8" thick in the primary side and about 1 1/2" on the secondary side, I think it was a 12 degree wedge, subtract 12 degrees from the motor angle, maybe 10 degrees and the bow up angle when under way and the carb is almost level, and now I sleep better at night.
I'm not arguing with you about who adjust carburetors better or how intake runner volume affects high rpm power or the opposite low end torque, my setup works fine for me. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=452&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978 - 1978 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: skyhawkflyer
Date Posted: June-22-2005 at 5:06pm
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This is a common problem a lot of folks bump into when they replace carburators on engines that don't have the wedge plates installed. The engines run fine at low idle, but run badly when the secondaries open because the fuel mixture is messed up for the secondaries.
Carburators Suck........  ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: June-22-2005 at 6:56pm
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You boys are out there, once off idle the mixture screw have no effect, the venturies and jets take over. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: June-23-2005 at 3:25am
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If I may interrupt a very emotional interchange...I'm about to install a new carb WITHOUT the wedge FIRST. I MAY adjust the idle screws at first, but I'll make no adjustments to the floats or internals. I'll see how it runs.
Next, I'll install the wedge plate (in the water or on dry land...) and make the same type test run. Guess which setup I'm gonna stick with? The one that works best for my particular boat. Can't really be so dogmatic and judgmental concerning another boat. It's really all about being happy with your OWN boat, isn't it? Hey...keep it friendly, men. Discussion boards are supposed to benefit everyone. Just for giggles, I'll let you all know which setup works best with my boat (1985 Ford 351W). Hope by 2 bits helps someone out there. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: June-23-2005 at 3:33am
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Sorry for the type-o. Meant to say "Hope MY 2 bits helps someone out there" not "BY 2 bits..."
Had to say that for all the obsessive compulsives out there overly concerned about angles and stuff (ha!) |
Posted By: SS 201
Date Posted: June-23-2005 at 8:47am
| Actually is was a problem, CC added a plate in later carb days. The higher you go with a plate the better the breaking up the droplets of fuel,and gives you a couple of HP. Holleys are very critical of float height.CC now runs very shallow engine angle and fuel injection. |
Posted By: skyhawkflyer
Date Posted: June-23-2005 at 10:33am
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Let me clarify for you 79Nautique, I seem to have left out a small detail. The post does not say anything about idle jetting so I don't know where that came from?
This is a common problem a lot of folks bump into when they replace carburators on engines that don't have the wedge plates installed. The engines runs fine at low idle and through mid throttle, but runs badly when the secondaries open because the fuel mixture is messed up for the secondaries. ------------- |
Posted By: skyhawkflyer
Date Posted: June-23-2005 at 10:37am
|
SS201
I have a late model 2001 (87) No wedge plate. And don't need one. ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: June-23-2005 at 3:04pm
You can not adjust the fuel mixture on the secondaries, unless you change the jets or boosters there are no screws to adjust the mixture once it is off idle (throttle is opened) once that occurs then you have what ever the mix is based upon the jet and booster size, so if you are lean you will be lean fron just off idle to full throttle and the same would apply if it is running rich. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
skyhawkflyer wrote:Posted By: skyhawkflyer
Date Posted: June-23-2005 at 3:43pm
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Your wrong.
If your float (rear) isn't set for the angle that the carburator is sitting at then you'll have problems. The fuel level won't be high enough in the bowl leaning out the mixture. You need to visualize what is going on. The front fuel level will actually be a little higher on the metering plate due to the angle the carb is sitting at, and the rear bowl will be on the low side. If an adequate fuel level in the bowl isn't present then it will cause a stumble (or temorary lean condition). Maybe not through out the range (of the secondaries), but it will be a problem, and lots of folks go to ignition and timing but to no avail. And when you start out from a dead stop in the water it amplifies the situation even more. What happens? The bow comes up and the backend digs in, creating an even greater angle that the carburator is set at. ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: June-23-2005 at 4:12pm
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So in other words the rear float is too low, raise it problem fixed. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: skyhawkflyer
Date Posted: June-23-2005 at 4:13pm
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Let's put it this way...
Get your fuel level wrong and it won't much matter what jet you've got in it. ------------- |
Posted By: skyhawkflyer
Date Posted: June-23-2005 at 4:42pm
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That is correct. C/C will tell you the exact setting as well. I use a drill bit, works well. I have the size written down somewhere.
Your front will be a smidge on the high side (the fuel level) and that may also be part of the problem as to why so many carburators out there percolate on the primary side into the venturi, the fuel level is slightly high to begin with. The rear bowl is the problem, because if you don't have enough fuel then it's going to lean out. Maybe not right away, maybe only when your under full load/full throttle. Not a good time to go lean. Running a wedge plate works best for carburators with the floats set level (when the bowl is inverted). No wedge plate then you need to change float settings (rear) period. As I brought up many posts ago, most problems arise when a replacement carburator (universal) is set on an engine without a wedge plate. The carburators are shipped out with the floats set to level, so when you install it you've got problems right from the start, and thats why I've always been an advocate of buying OEM stock replacement carburators for these boats, even if the price is a couple hundred dollars more. Pulling apart a brand new carburator to set floats is a shame, and if your time is worth money and considering gasket price you really don't save anything. I vaguely remember something about adjusting the fuel level up on the rear also helps with starting, but I can't remember what that was all about. ------------- |
Posted By: emitchum
Date Posted: June-23-2005 at 6:18pm
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i am thinking about turning my plate 180 degrees and getting a sidedraft carb ------------- 1979 Barefoot/454 |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: June-23-2005 at 6:29pm
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There are holley carbs that you can adjust the float level without removing anything put a sight hole plug and then adjust it on the top with a wrench and screw driver. The float is always going to be level regardless of the angle (liquids will always self level unless in a vaccum). What you are adjusting when you adjust the float is the amount of fuel in the bowl, or float height. There as to be enough fuel reserve in the bowl so that when under heavy demands there is a supply of fuel to use until the needle is lifted off of the seat allowing more fuel into the bowl. The biggest problem I see people have is with the double pump holleys, if you use a single inlet holley you will not have these issues and even with the double pump models if they are adjusted correctly, which is a fine line due to the increased incline, they will perform without issues, but do require fine tuning every now and then. That's my dad's main bitch about holley's is that they are easy to adjust but require constant adjustment to keep them optimized. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: SierraJB
Date Posted: June-23-2005 at 7:13pm
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So, we've basically come full circle on this discussion, haven't we. To simplify,
1. WITHOUT a wedge plate adjustments to floats (especially rear) will be necessary (for WOT)unless the factory already made those adjustments. 2. WITH a wedge plate the need for adjustments to the rear is relatively non-existant. Bottom Line: Try it both ways and settle for the option that provides the optimum power out of the hole and through the gates. I believe EVERYONE will agree with that. That's my plan, at least, as soon as both new carb and new plate arrive tomorrow. Watching for UPS.... Emitch...Have you already installed your wedge? If so, what kind of performance change, if any, did you see? WHY are you thinking about turning it around? |
Posted By: emitchum
Date Posted: June-23-2005 at 7:18pm
|
i had a 61 correct craft classic that actually had side drafts, a pair of carters ------------- 1979 Barefoot/454 |
Posted By: SierraJB
Date Posted: June-23-2005 at 7:31pm
| I see. That's not the setup you want NOW for your 79, is it? |
Posted By: emitchum
Date Posted: June-23-2005 at 7:39pm
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no, not really. this plate discussion had me really out there. i thought i may have to go home, jerk the plate off and monkey with my floats although it runs great like it is. the 61 was a cool boat but the side drafts and y block ford was a bear to find stuff for in the pre-internet days. the bb chevy is pretty mainstream ------------- 1979 Barefoot/454 |
Posted By: captan1
Date Posted: June-23-2005 at 8:16pm
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I'll see if I can duck in and out before anyone knows I'm here..
Something to consider about installing a wedge plate if your setup is without and you want to add one. The wedge plate will raise the carb, I had to go to a thin flame arrestor to close the engine cover, no big deal. And that was with a Weiand aluminum intake, also I had to remove the PCV spacer plate that was OEM under the carb. Now to keep the PCV function installed because ( here goes ) I believe the carb is jetted to compensate for the air that bleeds in to the air mixture from the PCV and I didn't want that to change. What I ended up doing to keep the PCV going was drill a 1/2 hole through the back side of the wedge plate right in the center deep enough to go through the divider part of the secondary holes on the wedge plate, tap threads so I could screw in a brass nipple for the PCV hose. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=452&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978 - 1978 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: June-24-2005 at 2:07am
|
You want to keep that pcv going, it ventilates the crankcase, keeping moisture and fuel fumes out so the don't contaminate the oil. A wedge plate most likely will cause some clearance issues with the cowling, something to consider.
I hope I didn't step on too many toes out there, but there are some issues that needed to come out. When I read a post about someone who put a new carburator on their engine and it won't perform or stumbles the first thing I think of is: whats your setup and have you dialed it in for your setup. Jetting is most likely correct, but when you tilt a carburator 15 degrees or so everything inside changes. Running a wedge plate is any easy and practicle solution, and maybe someday I might even consider buying one. Set you floats level (not slightly up or slightly down) and you should be good to go. There should be plenty of fuel in the bowls so that when the bow comes up under acceleration it won't stumble. Pick what works for you, there is no correct answer to this situation. As I stated earlier, given the choice, I'd rather have fuel injection! Cheers |
Posted By: captan1
Date Posted: June-24-2005 at 2:19am
|
Ah but yes, I forget that function and a very important one. I wonder if it's even more important to ventilate an engine in marine use. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=452&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978 - 1978 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: SS 201
Date Posted: June-24-2005 at 7:40am
| Drill size 7/16, and the wedge platea were on chrysler engines. |
Posted By: SierraJB
Date Posted: June-24-2005 at 1:24pm
|
Good points to consider, without a doubt. Obviously things DO change (height, levels, etc.) when you add or take away a wedge plate. I believe everyone's conclusions make crystal clear sense to me. THANKS!
BTW, older Chrysler engines DID have wedge plates (usually). However, I have seen Ford 351s with Holley 4160s that had a wedge. Not too clear if the factory did that or the owner. Nontheless...no probs. In fact, the wedge had helped in that particular application. Keep those thinking caps on, men! It's all about being the best you can be on the H2O. |
Posted By: SierraJB
Date Posted: June-27-2005 at 1:12pm
|
Just installed the NEW carb from Michigan Motorz (tell them JB sent you!). Thought you all might like to know the results I got with the new carb and new wedge plate. Made no adjustments to the carb, except for setting the initial air supplies and idle. The first test was with the NEW CARB ONLY, NO WEDGE PLATE, followed by a second test with the NEW CARB AND THE WEDGE PLATE. Here's the basic, non-technical results:
1. NO WEDGE: Max RPMS = 4200; Max MPH = 38 2. WITH WEDGE: Max RPS = 4300; Max MPH = 38 ****Had no issues with height restraints. Not much difference in rpms or top speed. HOWEVER, I must say the holeshot was noticably improved with the wedge! Though top-end showed no difference to speak of, GETTING THERE DID! So, in short, I'm keeping the $45 investment from Glen-L. Again, the wedge plate made a satisfactory improvement for MY BOAT, but it may not for yours. Should you decide to buy from Glen-L, be advised there are no instructions supplied with the 12 degree wedge plate and bag of bolts/nuts. I had to call them to talk to "BOB", the maker of this wedge, for clear instructions. It doesn't install like you would think. For instance, Bob instructed me to install the two longer studs in the manifold, then "bend" them to match the angle of the wedge plate. I was a bit hesitant to install anything that required my bending the bolts...but he insisted, and he was right. Gotta match the angle to get a good seal. Well, enough discussing the wedge plate. The lake's callin'............. |
Posted By: emitchum
Date Posted: July-10-2005 at 2:44am
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wedge plate?? ------------- 1979 Barefoot/454 |