GM Starter / Flywheel fit incorrect (paging eric)
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Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=18051
Printed Date: November-27-2024 at 8:45am
Topic: GM Starter / Flywheel fit incorrect (paging eric)
Posted By: Whitfield
Subject: GM Starter / Flywheel fit incorrect (paging eric)
Date Posted: June-14-2010 at 6:23pm
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Measuring from the starter flange to the ring gear it looks like the ring gear is too close to the motor. Looks like their is no way the starter can engauge the ring gear..
Starter / Trans / Bellhousing are all original ~ Engine and flywheel have changed. Looks like I will need to pull and recheck the flywheel ??? Any tricks for a Chev 350 with a rear mounted starter when changing from 2-piece rear seal 1984 motor to a 1-piece rear seal 1989 motor? 
I read somthing about flipping the ring gear in my counter rotation thread ~ Some how that made no sense (ring gear teeth looked non directional) Old flywheel and new flywheel looked to be a perfect match other then this one is drilled for the 89 large 3" crank flange. Bench testing the starter outside of the bell housing the starter gear is kicking out as desingned ~ Optima Yellow top is fully charged and shows 900+ CCA on the 10 second load test. I'm 90% into pulling the transmission for flywheel inspection~ but gotta clean up and go to work. PS: No grind no clink no starter gear strike ~ Just free spins. ------------- Michael .... I'm the black sheep ~ 1984 Dixie 299 Super Skier (350 Chev PCM / counter rotation / Velvet drive) Open Bow. |
Replies:
Posted By: Whitfield
Date Posted: June-14-2010 at 10:46pm
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I have not had a chance to dig out my old flywheel yet but this is not making sense... (I'll pick up the original flywheel on the way home) and have it to compare in the AM.
Flywheel isn't gonna just move an inch closer to the enigne ~ Somthing else has gotta be going on. Almost looks like it is missing one of those flywheel spacers like on the BOP (Buick Pontiac Olds) bellhousing adapter kits or the rear mounted starter take a special flywheel with different ring gear position. ------------- Michael .... I'm the black sheep ~ 1984 Dixie 299 Super Skier (350 Chev PCM / counter rotation / Velvet drive) Open Bow. |
Posted By: Whitfield
Date Posted: June-15-2010 at 1:25am
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I had to source the new Flywheel for the 3" crank pattern as the new engine has the vortec style 1-piece rear main seal.
Luckily a local transmissinon shop had a new flywheel of exact matching size / dimension / cut outs / pattern (Exact match in every way but had the correct crank pattern. My drive plate damper lined up identical and used all original holes. Looking up the Correct flywheel for my engine by application says: 1408860 Flywheel 12-3/4" with Newer 3" Crankshaft Bolt Circle Pattern $297.95 BAR24-1408860 Flywheel GM 5.7-Liter engines, 12-3/4" Diameter. With 3" crankshaft bolt pattern. Use this flywheel when replacing an older 5.0 or 5.7-liter GM (that had 2-piece rear main seal {3-1/2" crank bolt circle})with a "NEW" 1-piece rear main seal engine that has 3" crank bolt circle. (IE: when using a new VORTEC base or engine in an older application that requires using a 12-3/4" flywheel). Strange things is Ski Dim only lists the 14" flywheel. I do not know which i have but i do know that standing them upwright on the garage floor they are equal height. Ohhh well I'll finish pulling the trans in the am ~ should learn more then  ------------- Michael .... I'm the black sheep ~ 1984 Dixie 299 Super Skier (350 Chev PCM / counter rotation / Velvet drive) Open Bow. |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: June-15-2010 at 10:31am
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I may have opted to go to the different bellhousing and side mount gear reduction starter...good to see you got it figured out ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Whitfield
Date Posted: June-15-2010 at 10:45am
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I'm still lost ... (sorry)
Just stating above the changes I made purchasing the other flywheel for installing the 89 engine. Headded out now to take a 3rd look remeasure and pull the trans. Different guy same issue ~ http://www.fishtheclassic.net/forums/showthread.php?p=112089 His solution = the top mount flywheel assy. # is RA138008 (list price is $330) wich is now $380 + shipping. ------------- Michael .... I'm the black sheep ~ 1984 Dixie 299 Super Skier (350 Chev PCM / counter rotation / Velvet drive) Open Bow. |
Posted By: Whitfield
Date Posted: June-15-2010 at 11:46am
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Now flipping the ring gear makes sense...
Old flywheel looks like the ring gear will install engine side or transmission (with a small dividing ridge in the middle). New flywheel looks like ring gear will only install engine side. Backside has a hump covering 1/8" of ring gear base. SO now do I source another flywheel or have this one cut. ------------- Michael .... I'm the black sheep ~ 1984 Dixie 299 Super Skier (350 Chev PCM / counter rotation / Velvet drive) Open Bow. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-15-2010 at 11:57am
This will come down to cost. Sometimes buying a new part will be cheaper than having a machine shop set up and re machine a old part. Do you have a machine shop around you can go to? It's not a difficult job as long as he has a lathe and chuck that will handle the diameter. Make sure he "dials" it into the mating surface to the crank shaft. A 4 jaw chuck may be needed. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Whitfield wrote:Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: June-15-2010 at 12:07pm
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i have a side mount bellhousing for a bbc or sbc, and then you use the side mount starter and the FW you have ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: uk1979
Date Posted: June-15-2010 at 12:34pm
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Here is what I asked Skidim on this for a LH engine like yours.
Hi Guys can the team help me with a problem, I need to know what size flywheel and number of teeth if I use a PCM (R142006 cast at top) top mount bellhousing on a 350 Chevy and is it the case you need tp flip the ring round? the reason I ask is the engine is 2003 and the bellhousing may be for pre 86 engine with old type crank. Skidim The flywheel should measure 14" diameter (not sure of the teeth count), but the only difference is for the top mount starter. They flip the ring gear vs. the bottom mount or front entry starter. If that helps. Me Thanks for the help,as it looked real tight when I mock up the bellhousing and engine with a 14 in flywheel. If you know the ref number for the starter I need on a standard LH engine please ping over. Skidim The top mount starter is item# 1203 I think you will need the opposite rotaion starter to this one hope this helps. Roger. ------------- Lets have a go 56 Starflite 77 SN 78 SN 80 BFN |
Posted By: Whitfield
Date Posted: June-15-2010 at 12:35pm
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I think I have a line on a machine shop that can handle cutting the flywheel for rear ring gear. If not I will give you a call and arrange for the side mount bellhousing. (Which starter does that take? Ski DIm only list the top mount for RH Chevy engines)
EDIT: Thanks UK1979 ~ (imissed above) I was typing when you posted. 
 ------------- Michael .... I'm the black sheep ~ 1984 Dixie 299 Super Skier (350 Chev PCM / counter rotation / Velvet drive) Open Bow. |
Posted By: uk1979
Date Posted: June-15-2010 at 4:22pm
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Thanks for the pictures its a big help for others.
Roger. ------------- Lets have a go 56 Starflite 77 SN 78 SN 80 BFN |
Posted By: Whitfield
Date Posted: June-15-2010 at 5:17pm
$60 and 3 hrs later...
Now if I can just get the new FW installed and the trans back inplace before the neighbors complain. Unfortunatly the High school is my front yard and they are right busy this week. ~ Congrats to all those with 2010 Grads 
------------- Michael .... I'm the black sheep ~ 1984 Dixie 299 Super Skier (350 Chev PCM / counter rotation / Velvet drive) Open Bow. |
Posted By: John-Patrick
Date Posted: March-16-2020 at 6:04pm
| Hi I am having the same issue how did u fixed it? Did they cut the hump to move the ring gear to the backside?And when cutting the hump did the starter fits good? |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: March-16-2020 at 10:11pm
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J-P Whitfield who was the original poster probably won't answer your question, he hasn't been logged on for 3 1/2 years or so But..............here's a quote from another thread by Whitfield with the same pictures of his flywheels. He had his machined [QUOTE=Whitfield] Resolution was to have the Flywheel machined to accept the ring gear on the transmission side. Cost $60 & only took 3 hrs. From this: (right is original 84 flywheel with ring gear on trans side) To This: Required for this Chevy PCM bellhousing with top mount starter: Not knowing what your situation is, do you have a 14 inch flywheel with the ring gear on the front and you want it on the back, or do you need a flywheel for your application. Since a lot of different outfits have flywheels of the right size, if you already have one, probably the only way to really know if you can do what he did is with some measuring or taking it to a machine shop somewhere in your little slice of paradise  Or you could get the appropriate flywheel from the outfit in the link below. You'll have to read their application list closely to make sure you get the right one or maybe call them to get it right. https://www.michiganmotorz.com/flywheels-c-32_44.html" rel="nofollow - link Posting more info here explaining just what you have might help too |
Posted By: John-Patrick
Date Posted: March-17-2020 at 1:15am
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Hi Keno thanks for the fast reply. I have a flywheel with the ring gear mounted in the back ta use the top mount starter but the ring gear is in bad shape(brand new and old starter makes rough noise when cranking) so i wanted to replace the ring gear the solve the problem but i saw all flywheel normally have the ring gear mounted in the front.BTW i have a 14 inch flywheel 164 tooth. So i started looking arround online for ring gear but all the ring gears that i find online is for the front mount.My question is the ring gear mounted in the back the same as the one in the front? I don’t think so because of the hump that the flywheel have in the back.Can i get a specific ringgear with a bigger inside diameter to press on the wider back of the flywheel? I saw some new flywheel for the mount starter but if i can get a ring i will be cheaper sinds i live in Aruba and everything have to shipped and flywheel weights allot.And if i do the machining on the flywheel making it same hight ass the front and move the ringgear to the back will work without a problem? I was thingking the flywheel diameter is bigger in the back so if i machine it to make it same height as in the front the ringgear wont sit lower on the flywheel Thank you so much for your help hope to hear soon back from you |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: March-17-2020 at 11:43am
If we're talking Chevy's here, then it's really a 168 tooth flywheel. I'm guessing that you still have the boat together and you're looking for a ring gear to have on hand when you take things apart, Otherwise if it's already apart you can measure the front and back where the ring gear seats and they should both be the same diameter of about 13 1/4 inches (really 13.268).and take the same 14 inch ring gear. ( It's really 14.096 inches but commonly rounded down to 14 inches) I've taken a 454 PCM flywheel with the rear mounted gear which is nothing special (the casting number says it fits a lot of automotive 454's) and replaced the ring gear with one for an automotive application with no issues. The same gear fits the automotive applications with the gear on the front with no machining or other issues. The 14 inch ring gear was used on a lot of different sizes of Chevy engines. Or to put it differently a 168 tooth ring gear like a Pioneer FRG 168s or an ATP ZA-500 should fit your flywheel (unless it's some non stock weirdo type flywheel) with no machining and no issues since you'd be taking one off and replacing it with another in the same location Just a 1 for 1 swap of ring gears. assuming we're talking Chevy's And .............they're cheap, like under 20 bucks before the dreaded shipping to Aruba I figure you know how to get stuff shipped to Aruba and who is good to buy from. |
Posted By: John-Patrick
Date Posted: March-17-2020 at 1:16pm
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Hi Keno Yes is it is a chevy 350 i have the engine out of the i have same pictures but i don’t now how to upload them on here mayne i can send to you on your email adres.The auto motive flywheel is the same but just like the problem this guy had that the rear side of the flywheel is thicker so i will have to machine it.We ship to miami and then to Aruba. Let me know if it is posible to send you the picture via emial. Thank you Keno |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: March-17-2020 at 1:24pm
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Fire away E mail is keno439@gmail.com |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: March-18-2020 at 9:05am
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Below are the pictures from JP and the text of the email is under the pictures Unless I'm missing something, you should be able to remove the old ring gear and put a new one in the same spot with no machining necessary. The Pioneer FRG 168S or the ATP ZA-500 mentioned previously have the following dimensions Width: 0.44"; Teeth: 168; Outer Diameter: 14.096"; Inner Diameter: 13.268" If you measure the width of your installed gear and it's the same (.44 inches), there won't be any machining necessary. The same width gear fits front or rear   Hi keno This is the flywheel as you can see the ring is mounted to back side but on there is a step as you can see on picture 2 marked with green.Normally the flywheel sits where marked with red for bottom mount starters.So the rear ringer is not wider? Because of the height in the flywheel marked with green? |
Posted By: John-Patrick
Date Posted: March-18-2020 at 11:44am
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Thank you so much Keno i will order one online and switch tbe ring gear .In about 3 weeks i will get it and will post a photo of the results. Thank you for all the help Keno it really helped alot. John-Patrick Aruba |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: March-18-2020 at 10:02pm
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Glad to help Here are some pictures I took today Gear on the back  Gear removed  Gear on the front  As you can see the raised section isn't centered between the front and the rear, but it doesn't matter. The gear butts up against it when installed from either side and the gear is correctly located for either starter setup. Front bottom mount starter needs the gear on the front and rear top mount starter needs the gear on the back Also the 2 gears mentioned previously are the same dimensions as this gear is so they'll fit in either spot just like this one |