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Another Health Care debate...

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Printed Date: January-10-2025 at 11:36pm

Topic: Another Health Care debate...

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Subject: Another Health Care debate...
Date Posted: November-29-2010 at 2:43pm

Gotta love our politicians. Under the guise of spending cuts, this idea floats out there. Hopefully this will be fought hard enough to die.

Tax break for employer health plans a target again

By RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR, Associated Press Ricardo Alonso-zaldivar, Associated Press – Sun Nov 28, 1:21 pm ET

WASHINGTON – Job-based health care benefits could wind up on the chopping block if President Barack Obama and congressional Republicans get serious about cutting the deficit.

Budget proposals from leaders in both parties have urged shrinking or eliminating tax breaks that help make employer health insurance the leading source of coverage in the nation and a middle-class mainstay.

The idea isn't to just raise revenue, economists say, but finally to turn Americans into frugal health care consumers by having them face the full costs of their medical decisions.

Such a re-engineering was rejected by Democrats only a few months ago, at the height of the health care overhaul debate. But Washington has changed, with Republicans back in power and widespread fears that the burden of government debt may drag down the economy.

"There is no short-term prospect of enactment," former Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, a leading Democratic adviser on health care. "However, in a tax reform (and) deficit reducing context in the long term, the prospects are much better," said Daschle. He opposes repealing the tax break by itself, but says he would be "willing to look" at it with other changes that improve access to quality health care while reducing costs.

Labor unions believed they had squelched any such talk. Now, they're preparing for another fight.

Tampering with health care tax breaks is "a terrible step in the wrong direction," said Mary Kay Henry, the new president of the Service Employees International Union, which represents many hospital workers. "We want the middle class stabilized, not destabilized."

Employer-provided health insurance is part of a worker's compensation. Unlike wages, it isn't subject to income and payroll taxes.

Repealing the tax break would raise several hundred billion dollars a year, depending on how it's done. Many economists believe employers would boost pay if they didn't provide health care. Proponents of repeal usually call for a tax credit to offset part of the cost of individually purchasing coverage.

The leaders of Obama's deficit commission — Democrat Erskine Bowles, a former Clinton White House chief of staff, and Alan Simpson, a former GOP senator from Wyoming — have proposed to limit the tax break or eliminate it along with other cherished deductions, such as the one for mortgage interest. That would allow for a big cut in tax rates.

The commission is supposed to report its plan on Wednesday. It's unclear if leaders have the votes to back their sweeping changes.

A separate group, the Bipartisan Policy Center, is proposing to cap the health care tax break in 2018 and eliminate it over the next 10 years. That's part of a deficit reduction strategy from Democrat Alice Rivlin, a former Federal Reserve vice chairman, and former Sen. Pete Domenici, R-N-M., who once led the Senate Budget Committee.

"The problem of rising debt is so serious that Republicans and Democrats are going to have go back and look at almost everything to see how we solve this," said Rivlin.

Simpson calls the health care tax break a "tax earmark." He said that "you cannot get anything done in this game unless you deal with every single aspect of the federal budget, and the biggest thing to wrap our arms around is health care."

Democrats struggled with proposals to curb the tax break during the health care debate, but strong opposition from organized labor won out. The compromise was a tax on high-cost health insurance plans, which won't go into effect until 2018.

In a twist, the health care law eventually may make it easier to pry people away from employer insurance, a system that dates to World War II and has sustained three generations.

Starting in 2014, new insurance markets will make it easier for people to buy coverage on their own. These state-based "exchanges" would work like the federal employee health plan. Taxpayer subsidies will help individuals and families with low to moderate incomes pay premiums.

"Before health reform, a declining role for employers would have raised concerns," Rivlin and Domenici said in their proposal. But well-run exchanges "will provide a viable — perhaps even superior — alternative."

One Democratic member of Obama's deficit commission is wrestling with the idea.

California Rep. Xavier Becerra says it's a very different situation from the health care debate. Back then, policymakers were looking for money to pay for covering the uninsured. Now, they're looking at rebalancing the role of government in the economy. He's not considering health care tax breaks in isolation.

"What we are saying is that we are going to examine every tax earmark," Becerra said. "They are all on the table. If you want to keep one, then show us how you are going to come up with the money. That's where you really have to put your money where your mouth is."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101128/ap_on_bi_ge/us_employer_health_plans - Link

Replies:

Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-30-2010 at 10:08am

0kie, my 8 year old girl, Alexa caught a virus from the swimming pool and it leaves little bumps on the skin, went to the dermotoligist. 35 dollar co-pay, told my wife what was wrong and sent her to the Pharmacy for some cream, Pharmacy called and I answered, Mr Lavine, the 6 ounce tube of cream is $255.00......................................................................FY, keep the sht, she can scratch it until it goes away, of course my wife, Amanda is PO'd at me.
Now, all the right wingers out there, what the fck is wrong with this picture?

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"the things you own will start to own you"

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: November-30-2010 at 2:24pm

eric,

I'm not following your point.

Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: November-30-2010 at 5:34pm

RE-FORM, sht i could fill the tank, drive up to Canada and buy it and get back cheaper

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"the things you own will start to own you"

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: November-30-2010 at 6:15pm

The point is why are we still paying for health insurance? Why do we have to make a choice whether to afford a prescription that will make you better, or food for the table? All insurance companies do are middle man our health care. They earn huge profits and do not provide any service that improves our health. They are the leach that make it inevitable that the current way of paying for health care will die. If 100% of the money we all pay every year went into health care and not into some insurance company's CEO's pocket we would not have copays to visit the doctor or to get the drugs we need to get well. They would just be there when you need them. I say let the insurance companies die. Nobody will be able to afford health insurance in 5 years anyway.

As for the article and Obama's strategy, I doubt he wants Americans to turn to frugal healthcare any more than we already are. That is what Nixon did when he decided Health Insurance was the way to handle medical costs. And I quote "Less care more profit".

I hate politics!

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"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: November-30-2010 at 8:12pm

eric lavine wrote:

RE-FORM, sht i could fill the tank, drive up to Canada and buy it and get back cheaper

So are you telling us you are Canadian?

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: November-30-2010 at 8:16pm

Keegan,

I think that is a good point. My Dad and I have talked a lot about what things were like when he first started teaching and even back when he was a kid. Back then, insurance was for major medical issues, not comprehensive care. If you just needed to see your family doctor and take care of a simple issue, you paid the doctor cash and went about your merry way. Without all the middle men, it was more cost effective. Many that I know in the medical field can attest to costs to run a practice being extremely high due to paperwork, beauracracy and lawsuits. Take those things away and it drastically simplifies things and reduces costs.

I agree on your assessment of the article.

Posted By: harddock
Date Posted: November-30-2010 at 8:17pm

eric lavine wrote:

RE-FORM, sht i could fill the tank, drive up to Canada and buy it and get back cheaper

have a nice trip! better yet call 202 456 1111 .... ask for Barrack

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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4487" rel="nofollow - 1998 Ski Nautique

Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: December-01-2010 at 9:41am

there are 3 types of people Hard, ones that say "what the fck just happened" the other "hey whats happening" and last are the ones that make things happen....
needless to say, he (Obama) is heading in the right direction.
you guy's are slowly coming around LOL

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"the things you own will start to own you"

Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: December-01-2010 at 9:44am

Kee. monopoly?

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"the things you own will start to own you"

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-01-2010 at 2:59pm

eric lavine wrote:

Kee. monopoly?

I hate board games that are not on the water! LOL

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"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier

Posted By: harddock
Date Posted: December-01-2010 at 5:57pm

Eric, I agree that the price for that cream is outragious and because it is your kid you (as I would) will bite the bullet and get the stuff for her.


                          (Opinion)
As for Obama headed down the right track I can only agree if that track leads out of town. In the two years he has been here his priorities are wacked to say the least. He is helping to turn the country against each other. (I truley believe that he is the most racist person to come along in a long time). He is extremely partisan and hypocritical about it. I don't think he is a good leader, and while Mccain was no bargain, I think we would have done much better with Hillary.

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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4487" rel="nofollow - 1998 Ski Nautique

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-01-2010 at 7:27pm

Racist? How?

Whether he is doing a bad job or not is very subjective because there are so many variables to consider. One thing I can say is that I never got an email from George W. Bush informing me on any issues. I get a couple a week from the current administration, sometimes informing or updating, other times asking for calls to congressmen to get the word across on important issues. The bottom line is that he informs people, gets their input and goes for change. Its not always exactly what we want and things are still bad economy wise but that took a sht before Obama. Until we stop moving all of our jobs overseas, paying insane amounts for health care, and stop sicking our war dogs on every foreign scuffle at a billion dollars a day, things will not get any better no matter who is in office.

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"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier

Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: December-01-2010 at 8:22pm

GD Kee, I thought i was by myself here the last 6 months lol

I caught a show the other night on the guys over in A-stan, it was a 2 hour show about 10 or so guys on top of a hill, and the sgt got shot.
its a must see, maybe it will make people relize what war is all about. im for freedom and getting even for the Harbour, but damn i got a real reality check from that show

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"the things you own will start to own you"

Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: December-01-2010 at 8:37pm

Reform? WTF!! But then be taxed for it..

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1985 CC 2001-SOLD
Lee Michael Johnson

Posted By: watrski
Date Posted: December-01-2010 at 8:57pm

Health Care Cost?

Ask your doctor what it cost to pay in cash next time you are in. No haggling with the insurance company.

Ask your doctor what they have to pay before they can make a dime practicing medicine.

Insurance companies do make it cost more....lets say 20%. If everything was 20% less expensive would you say health care is now affordable?

One problem we have is our skewed sense of price. Do you ever buy anything at walmart....lets say a TV and think....how can this be so inexpensive?

The problem is that you cannot offshore health care, a plumber, or other services.

Maybe health care really is what it costs and a good portion of the goods we use are undervalued.

Perhaps Mr. Obama should start paying cash for his hospital visits? Lead by example...???

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-01-2010 at 10:49pm

20% of 2.7 trillion dollars is a ton of money for somebody that just sucks the teet and denies coverage wherever they can, and a lot of tubes of $225 cream. Health care is inflated here for many reasons. We already pick up the tab for people who cannot afford it. Practice overhead is very high in this country due to liability. We cant outsource healthcare but we can make the system a hell of a lot more efficient. Its cheaper to go to Urgent care and pay out of pocket than it is to have a plumber come fix your sink. The plumber is putting a higher % of that money in his pocket at the end of the day too. He also did not go to school for 12 years to learn his trade.

Routine dr visits are pretty affordable so why do we spend $600 a month in premiums? Cause one appendectomy can cost you $25,000. Kinda like Vegas but we are all betting that we will get sick because we can't afford not to.

If we paid a healthcare tax instead of an insurance premium everyone would be covered, doctors would get paid and care would always be there when you needed it no questions asked. Kind of like the library.

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"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier

Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: December-02-2010 at 9:45am

really, if the government stepped in and merely just mandated and put caps on malpractice insurance, it would easily lower the costs so a doctor could practice on his own again. Every doctor in town "Cleveland" was forced to jump ship and work for one of the big hospitals in the area, all due to malpractice insurance costs.

people make mistakes, so do Doctors and to me there is no way in the world a family should get 50 million for a mistake a Doctor caused....A million dollars, yes,

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"the things you own will start to own you"

Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: December-02-2010 at 9:53am

where were you guy's 6 months ago? it was 20 against 1 lol

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"the things you own will start to own you"

Posted By: watrski
Date Posted: December-02-2010 at 3:32pm

Keeganino wrote:

We already pick up the tab for people who cannot afford it. Practice overhead is very high in this country due to liability. We cant outsource healthcare but we can make the system a hell of a lot more efficient.

If we paid a healthcare tax instead of an insurance premium everyone would be covered, doctors would get paid and care would always be there when you needed it no questions asked. Kind of like the library.

Whoa there we go!

Ding Ding Ding....

A tax....so the government can run it.....more effeciently.

Yeah right.

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: December-02-2010 at 3:49pm

Keeganino wrote:

If we paid a healthcare tax instead of an insurance premium everyone would be covered, doctors would get paid and care would always be there when you needed it no questions asked. Kind of like the library.

This would only be an improvement if:

1. Everyone had to pay the tax.
2. The doctors' pay was reasonable.
3. Caps were placed on liability.

Great care should be taken if things are going to change. If everyone isn't paying into the system, it won't be any different than it is today a far as how that impacts costs. If doctors aren't paid enough you will eventually see less people becoming doctors. You could also see them being forced out of private practice since they can't make a "profit". Putting the caps on liability would have a huge impact, also as far as operating costs are concerned. That and the beauracracy of "health insurance" are huge contributors to costs. The biggest thing I have a problem with regarding the health care bill is that the major issues weren't addressed.

Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: December-02-2010 at 4:45pm

this is a close but good example of how the gov may work, their fleet cars in Ohio which probably is 10,000....they are self insured, they are in control watching the costs, and they dictate, not in the way one thinks, it is closely monitered by represenitives it saves the gov around 60% rather than outsourcing an insurance company, basically the same principal. Hospitals opened up to free market and a profitible business..in my eyes it should be a non profit business. like a charity.
Okie, Americans are paying attention, when you dont as of the past this is the road it leads to, I know in the back of some minds people stay away from this topic because they think we may be big mouths and dont want to get involved....
all it boils down to is trying to make the furture generation be aware, the government/ healthcare thing is the way it is because we didnt pay attention

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"the things you own will start to own you"

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-02-2010 at 5:10pm

Lets treat health care like the environment. Just ignore it and it will go away...

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"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier

Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: December-02-2010 at 7:50pm

Well we all knew but now Obama reform health care will not work. In 2011 insurance companies will drop insurance coverage on low end wage famlies on children and insurance companies because of high end cost. Well go fking figure.. Reform does not work and never will.

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1985 CC 2001-SOLD
Lee Michael Johnson

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-02-2010 at 7:57pm

I repeat

Keeganino wrote:

Lets treat health care like the environment. Just ignore it and it will go away...

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"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier

Posted By: 65 'cuda
Date Posted: December-02-2010 at 10:07pm

Today's health care/tax problems are just a tiny fraction of what is coming. The oldest baby boomers are just now turning 65. A baby boomer turns 65 every eight seconds. Fast forward a few years when these boomers are using medicare at a prodigious rate. Fast forward a few decades when these same folks are passing on at a rate of one every eight seconds. The last few weeks and days of life in this country are tremendously expensive (in health care costs). It will implode the economy in this country. The future tax burdens just to start to make a dent in the debt are going to have to be far reaching, let alone fund the shortfall in medicare alone, don't even get me started on social security. No one is talking about this, why? ...

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Gary

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=941" rel="nofollow - 1965 Barracuda SS

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-02-2010 at 10:13pm

65 'cuda wrote:

Today's health care/tax problems are just a tiny fraction of what is coming. The oldest baby boomers are just now turning 65. A baby boomer turns 65 every eight seconds. Fast forward a few years when these boomers are using medicare at a prodigious rate. Fast forward a few decades when these same folks are passing on at a rate of one every eight seconds. The last few weeks and days of life in this country are tremendously expensive (in health care costs). It will implode the economy in this country. The future tax burdens just to start to make a dent in the debt are going to have to be far reaching, let alone fund the shortfall in medicare alone, don't even get me started on social security. No one is talking about this, why? ...

Amen brother. You nailed it. People laugh when I tell them but if they think the housing industry bubble bursting screwed things up just wait for the health care bubble to pop.

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"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier

Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: December-02-2010 at 10:15pm

Gary, you got to be a baby boomer, too. Look forward to means testing, no cap on FICA and raising the retirement age.

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Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: December-02-2010 at 10:51pm

I worry greatly for my parents. My dad is 68 and my mother just turned 63. Just read a article Obama and company in 2011 are taking from the social security fund more and is passing a bill to give to illegal immigrants medical. Now WTF!!!! These crazy liberals are freeking out there. In the parking lot!!

They are bankrupting us in godly amounts. If you are baby boomers I pray for even you know. Obama just wants old people dead, he dont give a flying fk!!! And I got a problem with that

But I am not worried, what goes around comes around

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1985 CC 2001-SOLD
Lee Michael Johnson

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-02-2010 at 11:16pm

The thing is that we already provide free health care to illegal immigrants. A pregnant woman can find her way into this country and as long as she has no money we will deliver the baby and take care of all her medical bills and the baby's. Its been dragging the system down for years. My mom worked in the NICU at UNC hospital for ten years and the women all say the same thing. I am looking for a job. As long as they say that the tab is on us already. SO they work under the table jobs and all their health care is free. Now that I have a problem with!

I don't know enough about the SS bill you are talking about to comment but you are buying into the right wing propaganda if you really think Obama just wants old people dead.

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"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier

Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 12:24am

I spent an evening in the waiting room of the emergency room this past summer and was amazed that some of the people there were very familiar with the place, like they go there often. One was giving us advice where to get blankets, where to sit to get away from the AC, etc., almost like they worked there, but they were waiting for care, too.

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Posted By: 65 'cuda
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 12:29am

I'm a few years too young to be a boomer, but unless broad changes are made, my generation's economic future is not bright, and my kids generation is ...

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Gary

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=941" rel="nofollow - 1965 Barracuda SS

Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 9:02am

So what happens if we just sit back and watch, post long term predictions.
Im going to throw this out there, everyone keeps their monthly bills somewhere, mine happen to be on the kitchen counter, I would say my stack of medical bills is roughly 4" high, am I the only one?
i cant even fathom what i pay out yearly on the cost of healthcare, its killing me and its shtty ass coverage.
a friend of mine (im rich in friends) you have a tendency to meet alot of people when you own a business, comes hobbling in yesterday, after 3 days of laying on his back, surgery is postponed because he has a 3000.00 deductible, he sent them 1500.00 and is gathering the other 1500.00,
this is fcn America, and this guy has to suffer, if i had the extra 1500.00 i would surely give it to him. the insurance company is dictating and hand picking which is illegal.
for some strange reason some think Obama is out to get them, oh were going to get taxed, when the government takes over were doomed, the costs will skyrocket......im not on Obama's bandwagon, we are paying for the uninsured no matter what. we bailed the banks out not the healthcare insurance company's. what does that tell you

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"the things you own will start to own you"

Posted By: 65 'cuda
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 9:42am

Don't get sick.

Seriously, Over the past 7 years I've spent in the mid 50,000.00 range on health care premiums and deductibles, over 95% of my premiums went straight to the bottom line for the health insurers, only once in that time period did I reach the deductible and the ins co. had to start paying, their share was under two grand. Overall, our family is very healthy, yet my premiums go up about 20 percent every year, year in year out. I don't know what the answer is but what I'm doing now is not sustainable, oh, the last time I saw a doctor, was for a physical over eight years ago.

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Gary

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=941" rel="nofollow - 1965 Barracuda SS

Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 11:21am

You must be self employed or work for a small company. I worked for a small company for 14 years that paid for health care. It was the same thing, 20% increase one year, 50% the next which would result in us paring down the coverage to terms more favoable to the insurance company.

It's highly advisable to have a physical every year, even if you have to pay for it out of pocket.

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Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 1:59pm

When Obama started talking about health care reform and NHS the media was making a big deal about how you would not be able to choose your own doctor and you might lose your current one. Bill Maher put it well he said "they are so delusional that they think these people(the uninsured) actually have doctors"! The funniest thing to me is that they(the right wing media)made a big deal about having the choice to not have coverage if you did not want it. Who in their right mind would not want health care? It is so easy to strike fear into the hearts of those afraid of change and the media does a great job of convoluting the facts.

Have you guys heard about the new no premium employee insurance? No premium for employees but a $7000 deductible per person per year. That means that my family of five could pay as much as $35,000 a year for medical bills!

I have a friend who is fighting breast cancer. SHe has a $10,000 deductible per year so when she got sick whoosh there went $10k. Now it has only been 8 months since she started treatment but her policy year is up so she has to pay another $10k before they start paying for anything again. WTF!!!!! Oh and they only pay 80% after the $10k. So not only is she unable to work but her medical bills are unreal. SHe had to do 14 rounds of chemo at $7000 per round and that is just part of the cost.

Cuda is right the current way of handling health care is unsustainable.

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"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier

Posted By: harddock
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 2:33pm

The whole healthcare issue is BS. The democrats put in a bill with all they could. The stuff that didn't make it in was soley because even some in their party knew it would work so they scaled it done to just what they could get passed. Think about it, The republicans couldn't come up with not even one idea that they would accept, so they weren't included. That alone smells. The democrats want to give everyone healthcare but really offered nothing that will save any money. So by rushing into law this one sided bill they didn't cover anyone, the insurance companies are raising costs on everyone, the government is giving exceptions to big businesses and nothing, nothing at all has any cost cutting. States are suing to get out of having to comply. Companies are withdrawing benefits, and costs continue to rise.

The entire Washington political machine is a game about power. Who has it, and how to keep it while making the other side look like the bad guy. The tea party movement was developed from people that have had enough of this but the media spins the crap out of what the movement really is about and makes it seem like some conspiricy. If Washington really cared about the people it is governing as opposed to winning a point we could have found a way that would make healthcare more affordable and then more people would be able to be insured.

Neither side has all the answers and never will but until they actually sit in aroom and work for the people, rather than their party and the special interest groups funding them we the people will continue to pay.

The newcomers have pledged to change this. We can only hope. They will more than likely start off trying but they will get beat up, their lunch money taken, and will be bullied into the same old routine and we will pay.

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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4487" rel="nofollow - 1998 Ski Nautique

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 2:55pm

Keeganino wrote:

I have a friend who is fighting breast cancer. SHe has a $10,000 deductible per year so when she got sick whoosh there went $10k. Now it has only been 8 months since she started treatment but her policy year is up so she has to pay another $10k before they start paying for anything again. WTF!!!!! Oh and they only pay 80% after the $10k. So not only is she unable to work but her medical bills are unreal. SHe had to do 14 rounds of chemo at $7000 per round and that is just part of the cost.

So, let me ask a couple questions...

1. You're making a point that her out-of-pocket costs are too high and she can't pay them, so who should?
2. What do you think the reason is the cost and out-of-pocket cost is high?
3. What would be a viable solution to drive the costs down?

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 2:57pm

Keeganino wrote:

The funniest thing to me is that they(the right wing media)made a big deal about having the choice to not have coverage if you did not want it. Who in their right mind would not want health care?

The point isn't about health care it is about comprehensive health INSURANCE and the ability to opt out. If I had enough money to just foot the bill for medical care when I needed it, why should I be forced to by health insurance and constantly pay premiums. I'll take the risk on my own and when I get sick I'll pay the costs myself. That's the point. Do you know why "right wingers" want that and "left wingers" want to reject the idea?

Posted By: watrski
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 3:15pm

Okie Boarder wrote:

The cost is high because it is high. Again, our concept of price is flawed due to us being able to offshore just about everything else. When you offshore everything and the import GDP is higher than the import GDP wealth is leaving the country.

http://www.economyincrisis.org/content/perils-importing-more-we-export - http://www.economyincrisis.org/content/perils-importing-more-we-export

The only way to drive down costs is competition and innovation.

The new government plan does not help either of these.

Have you looked around lately? Each area has two major hospital chains that are beginning to own everything. Small privately own practices are being shut down. In my sector of work medicare has decreased pay for (the same procedure) for private practice and increased it for hospitals. So what this does is drive the private practice out of business and erases competition.

Unfortunately, we cannot keep living like we have for the past 30 years.

Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 3:28pm

Keeganino wrote:

Lets treat health care like the environment. Just ignore it and it will go away...

Unfortunately, I think the majority of people here don't believe in global warming, the big bang theory, or the theory of evolution.

Have your taxes gone up under Obama? Probably not.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/19/us/politics/19taxes.html

Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 3:59pm

Keeganino wrote:

The thing is that we already provide free health care to illegal immigrants. A pregnant woman can find her way into this country and as long as she has no money we will deliver the baby and take care of all her medical bills and the baby's. Its been dragging the system down for years. My mom worked in the NICU at UNC hospital for ten years and the women all say the same thing. I am looking for a job. As long as they say that the tab is on us already. SO they work under the table jobs and all their health care is free. Now that I have a problem with!

I don't know enough about the SS bill you are talking about to comment but you are buying into the right wing propaganda if you really think Obama just wants old people dead.

Yes, they get some level of EMERGENCY care. But ask a poor person how well their cancer treatment is going.. There is a reason why cancer survival rates are higher for the wealthy compared to the poor.

Posted By: harddock
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 4:08pm

phospher wrote:

You just coupled poor person with illegal entry person. I do feel bad for poor working guy who has jsut the basics, or no insurance at all because he is struggling to feed and house a family. Reforms of the current system would enable more people coverage and all would have better rates.

However, just because you can climb or tunnel a fence and come here I don't think you are entitled to healthcare insurance, a drivers license, welfare, a college edjucation, and a host of other perks.

Coming here through the proper chanels with the proper paperwork is not to much to ask if you want the american dream.

Perhaps because we disagree on this the procedure should be re written so a portion of your paycheck can be taken out to help all those who need it and I can be exempt from this because I opt out of it. There evryone is happy now!
1998 Ski Nautique

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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4487" rel="nofollow - 1998 Ski Nautique

Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 4:23pm

harddock wrote:

You just coupled poor person with illegal entry person. I do feel bad for poor working guy who has jsut the basics, or no insurance at all because he is struggling to feed and house a family. Reforms of the current system would enable more people coverage and all would have better rates.

However, just because you can climb or tunnel a fence and come here I don't think you are entitled to healthcare insurance, a drivers license, welfare, a college edjucation, and a host of other perks.

Coming here through the proper chanels with the proper paperwork is not to much to ask if you want the american dream.

Perhaps because we disagree on this the procedure should be re written so a portion of your paycheck can be taken out to help all those who need it and I can be exempt from this because I opt out of it. There evryone is happy now!

I mostly agree but the argument still stands. Most people don't want to pay a dime for the uninsured and a lot think they get more coverage than they actually do. Again, I side with humanity.

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 4:27pm

Okie Boarder wrote:

So, let me ask a couple questions...

1. You're making a point that her out-of-pocket costs are too high and she can't pay them, so who should?
2. What do you think the reason is the cost and out-of-pocket cost is high?
3. What would be a viable solution to drive the costs down?

I don't know the answer. My response is if Cuba, Canada, the UK, France, and most of the European countries can take care of their sick why cant we? We can go blow up foreign countries, kill thousands of people costing trillions of dollars but sorry if you get sick. We only pay for our prisoners health care. So if I ever get cancer I will just go rob a bank. Best case scenario is that I get away with the cash and can pay my bills. Worst case I go to jail and receive free health care, food and housing.

Why should you have to lose everything you worked for your whole life just because you get sick? There is plenty of money to pay for all of our medical expenses, it is just not being allocated properly.

My friend has payed taxes and insurance premiums her entire adult life and this is the best we have to offer? Sorry you are now bankrupt, lost your house, car, and business. Her lousy insurance policy was due to the fact that she was hit by a drunk driver 15 years ago and broke her back(she fully recovered), so when she goes to buy coverage that was all they would offer her because she had a pre-existing condition. She owned a yoga studio and teaches yoga and was very healthy but because of a pre-existing condition this is all she could get. That is fcking horse sht but its the American way...

I am pretty sure we can do better. I know we deserve better. I mean come on! If Canada can do it what is our excuse. That is like getting beat up by your little sister or gay brother.

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 4:33pm

phospher wrote:

I side with humanity.

Me too. Unfortunately the American way is manifest destiny.

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"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 4:41pm

phospher wrote:

Yes, they get some level of EMERGENCY care. But ask a poor person how well their cancer treatment is going.. There is a reason why cancer survival rates are higher for the wealthy compared to the poor.

Wealth and health go hand in hand in this country. In the past only the wealthy could afford schools so we built public schools. In the past only wealthy people could afford books so we built public libraries. Why should health care be any different?

A healthy educated population will always be more productive than a sick stupid one. If we are going to compete in the future we have to figure this out.

-------------
"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 4:56pm

phospher wrote:

While your at it, ask that same poor person how their steak and lobster dinner was last night. After all, food is a basic necessity and steak and lobster is a food right? They shouldn't be denied a basic necessity.

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 5:02pm

phospher wrote:

I mostly agree but the argument still stands. Most people don't want to pay a dime for the uninsured and a lot think they get more coverage than they actually do. Again, I side with humanity.

Actually, most of the type of people you are referring to would love to help those that are uninsured. My personal opinion is I would be glad to pitch in a dime to help pay for their coverage. But, they need to pitch in too. If the dime is too much, at least throw in a penny or a nickel.

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 5:09pm

Keeganino wrote:

We can do the same thing those countries are doing. All it takes is raising taxes on everyone that makes a decent income. That would impact you, I'm sure. Are you willing to be taxed to the tune of 60-70% of your income to ensure all people like your friend are cared for without breaking them financially?

Personally I like the idea if getting rid of the pre-existing condition situation. The only downside to it is it raises liability so cost has to go up to offset that liability. Either the individual pays the offset on their own or it is spread amongst all of us.

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 5:43pm

One idea that I've always thought would work well would be a type of "work for care" type program. I think it is worth mentioning in this discussion.

The idea would be to take someone that is working poor or on welfare and put them in a program to help them out. They would receive the typical basic needs assistance that you gain from welfare while they are working to better themselves and get out there on their own. They would put in a certain amount of hours per day job searching or receiving some sort of training. Also, they would put a certain amount of hours in per day performing a service that helps the community or local government and would reduce operational cost for those entities. In return, they receive care during their time of need and a way to get back on their feet. Once they are out on their own again, if they struggle to afford certain things, like health care, they could still sign up to provide hours of service to be able to still receive the care they can't afford on their own. Ultimately, either a person pays their own way for the services they need or they provide their time to help offset the cost of it being provided to them.

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 5:51pm

Okie Boarder wrote:

While your at it, ask that same poor person how their steak and lobster dinner was last night. After all, food is a basic necessity and steak and lobster is a food right? They shouldn't be denied a basic necessity.

You can buy steak and lobster with food stamps but you will be hungry for the next two weeks. Transportation is a necessity but poor people don't need a BMW. The bus works just fine. The BMW is a reward for being monetarily successful as is the lobster. Sorry but health care should not be a reward it should be a right.

There is a solution out there if we want it. The truth of the matter is that historically Americans do not change until their pocketbook forces them to.

For example. Supermarkets have been pushing re-usable cloth grocery bags for years now. How many people use them? Not many here in NC because people don't think they pay for the grocery bag when they buy their food. Washington state markets began charging 17 cents a plastic bag and 25 cents for paper. The change happened almost over night. People started using their own cloth bags. Did they do it because it was the green thing to do? Or because it would lower the markets overhead and carbon footprint? No- they changed because it cost them money.

Excuses are easy to make it's the poor people, its the illegals, its the aging population, its the black guy in office. Its time to work towards a solution.

-------------
"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 5:55pm

Phil,

Speaking of global warming...here is an interesting editorial comment I saw a week or so ago...

If you really, truly, and whole-heartedly believe in anthropomorphic global warming and the policy being put forward by the IPCC and environmentalist politicians, then you MUST accept the following premises. First, you must accept as FACT that the main cause of global warming is CO2. Second, the primary human activity driving the production of excess CO2 is ENERGY CONSUMPTION. Third, all energy consumption beyond what is essential to your survival is excessive.

YOU should try turning off power on things you don't NEED, permanently. For example, turn off your computer, turn off your TV, turn off your radio, turn off your water heater, turn off your AC/heater (for 90% of the year), turn off all but 1 clock, etc, and NEVER turn them back on. If you REALLY believe in "making a difference", then YOU should make a personal choice to stop living a 21st Century lifestyle. Make a genuine effort to live a 19th Century lifestyle. Don't tell me that it can't be done.

If you and all the rest of you "environmentalists" took PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and start living a 19th Century lifestyle, energy consumption would be reduced by as much as 20% to 30% (assuming there are as many of you as you people say there are). That would be a real difference, and you wouldn't need to constantly badger people, like myself, that don't buy into the anthropomorphic global warming farce, because we can see through the bad science and the Marxist masters behind it.

The fact is, YOU won't make that commitment. You and 99% of all environmentalists, aren't willing to actually give up the very things that YOU believe are "changing the climate". Why should we that don't take as fact the anthropomorphic global warming farce have to take instruction from a blatant hypocrite?

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 6:03pm

Okie Boarder wrote:

We can do the same thing those countries are doing. All it takes is raising taxes on everyone that makes a decent income. That would impact you, I'm sure. Are you willing to be taxed to the tune of 60-70% of your income to ensure all people like your friend are cared for without breaking them financially?

If you never paid another dime in premiums, copays, denied claims, and were never at risk of losing everything you own because you get sick I would say hell yes. You would not be paying much more if any than you are now but the problem is solved. No brainer to me.

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"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 6:12pm

Okie Boarder wrote:

Phil,

Speaking of global warming...here is an interesting editorial comment I saw a week or so ago...

This is where competition and innovation will solve the problem. Hydrogen powered transportation, efficient LED lighting, and alternative energy sources such as wind will greatly reduce our impact on the environment. We can have our cake and eat it too, we just have to figure out how and be willing to make some changes. This guy is over the top and the reason most people will not even try to curb their energy consumption.

-------------
"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier

Posted By: phospher
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 6:37pm

Keeganino wrote:

Okie Boarder wrote:

Phil,

Speaking of global warming...here is an interesting editorial comment I saw a week or so ago...

Personally I've taken steps in my life to minimize my carbon footprint. But I see a bit of a conflict of interest here and "The Rapture" comes to mind.

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 7:07pm

Keeganino wrote:

You can buy steak and lobster with food stamps but you will be hungry for the next two weeks. Transportation is a necessity but poor people don't need a BMW. The bus works just fine. The BMW is a reward for being monetarily successful as is the lobster. Sorry but health care should not be a reward it should be a right.

There is a solution out there if we want it. The truth of the matter is that historically Americans do not change until their pocketbook forces them to.

So, what should be the right regarding health care? Should a person get every medical service available or just certain ones deemed necessary? Does the poor person receiving health care for free get the standard surgery that corrects their problem adequately, but leaves more scarring and requires a longer recovery or do they get the state of the art robotic guided surgical technique?

Keeganino wrote:

Have you really looked at what these countries have done? Take Canada as an example. They pay those kinds of tax rates yet people at certain income levels still have premiums. Just the tax revenue alone isn't enough to sustain it so they still have to charge those that can affrod to be charged. I'm not sure about every detail on co-pays, but I've found a lot of information out about premiums. I also have not checked to see if their premiums or other costs go up every year like ours do. That would be good to dig back into. They do have the benefit of not going bankrupt over medical costs, as long as it is deemed necessary by the rules that are in place.

There is still private insurance in Canada, also. I wonder why?

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 7:11pm

phospher wrote:

Personally I've taken steps in my life to minimize my carbon footprint. But I see a bit of a conflict of interest here and "The Rapture" comes to mind.

Phil,

That's great and I have a lot of respect for everyone that does. If you truly believe that we are causing global warming, then take the steps to help reverse it. If as many people believe it as we are being told, and they all take those types of steps, the reduction should be significant enough to monitor. Once it is monitored for long enough we can determine the effect and decide the next steps. Why isn't that the proposal on the table? If the man-made global warming crowd is so convinced they are right, prove it by leading by example and gathering the data to show that the behavior changes provide results.

Posted By: watrski
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 7:40pm

phospher wrote:

Keeganino wrote:

Okie Boarder wrote:

Phil,

Speaking of global warming...here is an interesting editorial comment I saw a week or so ago...

Personally I've taken steps in my life to minimize my carbon footprint. But I see a bit of a conflict of interest here and "The Rapture" comes to mind.

So you don't use your Correct Craft anymore?

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 7:45pm

watrski wrote:

So you don't use your Correct Craft anymore?

Oh boy here we go

-------------
"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 8:04pm

Where's the emoticon that has the character eating popcorn when you need it.

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-03-2010 at 9:19pm

Okie Boarder wrote:

Where's the emoticon that has the character eating popcorn when you need it.

I have a dentist friend who had a patient that was on the olympic rowing team and was looking for a skier to help them train. A 4 man crew can get you up on 2 skies and pull you all day long. I am pretty sure barefooting is out of the question though!

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: December-06-2010 at 12:59pm

I wonder if they could pull up a wakeboarder. Although, their wake would probably be pretty small.

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: December-06-2010 at 1:11pm

I've dug into the Canadian system a little more for the sake of this discussion. I've gotten some first hand information from a few Canadians, as well. First, here are a couple links for the http://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/public/programs/ohip/ -
Ontario Health System as well as http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html -
Federal and Provincial income tax rates .

Generally speaking the system varies a little by province, but are very similar. For the most part they pay little to no monthly premium for health care. They are 100% covered for just about everything that is considered necessary. There are a few exceptions from what I've been told, but it doesn't sound like anything major. Generally prescriptions, vision and dental are not covered, but you can buy insurance for that. Many employers offer benefits to cover things not already covered by the health system.

Non-essential procedures are not covered at all. Things like plastic surgery, etc. would fall into this category. Non life threatening issues are put to the back of the line, but you can go to a private doctor or seek out another province whose backlog is lower to shorten up the timeframe.

You can look at the website for Ontario and read more about the coverage. My reading through it so far seems to indicate it is pretty close to a typical coverage plan in the U.S. as far as what is covered. You could also go look at their tax rates and see how that would compare to ours using your own personal situation. I did notice it was difficult to find information about deductions and exemptions. I'm still trying to find out if they have them like we do or not.

Posted By: Swatkinz
Date Posted: December-06-2010 at 1:57pm

Guys, the real issue here is cost and implementation. I think everyone, even the die hard right wingers, would like to see all people have healthcare coverage. Say Yes! However, our country can't stop spending money to demonstrate some fiscal restraint on other things long enough to win us over to the idea. The current system is broken and unsustainable for sure as are many other government systems. Personally, I'm fiscally conservative but liberal on many of the social issues. Whoever made the comment about being supportive when it began to be felt in the wallet is right on. My social agenda takes a big time back seat because I DON'T HAVE ANY MORE MONEY TO GIVE!!!

The amount I'm taxed from the feds, the state of SC, my county etc., makes me unsupportive of pretty much any additional tax for ANY reason. The fact that the people who take this tax money from me can't manage it makes me unwilling to support ANY measure that would give them more of it. I am taxed and tapped out financially and it ain't from living beyond my means. Someone asked if taxes had gone up under Obama. I guess the simplest way to look at that question would be to look at my tax bracket and the percentages and provide the answer, but I don't think it's that simple. I don't know if my federal income taxes have risen under Obama and I'm guessing no one else does either. However, it seems that every time I turn around, the county, town, state or someone else is wanting to implement a penny sales tax to cover this, that and the other. Maybe all these tax increases are because those entities don't get as much from the feds as they used to. I don't know. Here's one that really chaps my a$$. I have an investment property in Myrtle Beach, SC that I pay property taxes on. I also get a separate tax bill for the furnishings and appliances inside. I don't feel that there should be an additional bill for this and hope you all would agree but guess what, I have to pay this even if it is unfurnished and has no appliances. Obama, Bush before him and all stewards of my money (republicans, democrats, independents etc.) are doing a crappy job of managing it. I do feel sorry for the folks who are struggling significantly because of a lack of healthcare coverage. Nobody asks for cancer or other significant issues, but the recently approved healthcare bill isn't going to improve those situations because paying for that coverage hasn't really been addressed. It seems that most of those involved think that merely passing the bill automatically makes for healthy, happy people. That is the easy part in my mind. How do you pay for it is the bigger questions. Aren't insurers still going to be administratively managing this new government healthcare? Doesn't that mean that their costs will still be a part (and problem) with the new system?

The implementation piece of it, well that's a whole 'nother issue. The local governments seems to do a pretty decent job of managing some emergency services such as fire, police, emergency support etc, but they pretty much stink at the rest of it. I cannot imagine that a health care system management by the government would be any different than it is for me now except that I'd be paying more and getting less.

-------------
Steve
2011 Sport/Air 200
Excalibur 343
2017 Boatmate Tandem Axle Trailer

Former CC owner (77, 80, 95, 88, all SNs)

Former Malibu owner (07, 09)

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-06-2010 at 6:14pm

Ahhh the smell of common sense. Thanks Andy and Steve. I thought this was going to degrade into a discussion about sacrificing the right to get our Correct Craft on.

I would love to see a hydrogen powered Nautique though.

What I have been saying all along is that the money is there already for NHS, it is just not being allocated properly or managed correctly.

When I lived over in England healthcare was a lot like Canada's system. We never had anything but positive experiences there with going to the doctor.

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"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier

Posted By: Swatkinz
Date Posted: December-06-2010 at 6:31pm

You're right. The money IS there to fund NHS.....IF the politicians would cut all of the other wasteful spending out of the budget. That will never happen and is the reason I can't really say that I'm for NHS. I'm only for it if they cut out all of the pork barrel spending and that's just not going to happen, ever, period. To be sure, Obama's plan will only cost me and my family more money for the same or less coverage than I currently have, the do nothings at the bottom of the chain will be crowding my doctor's office (with all of their welfare receiving kids) instead of the ER and your friend with breast cancer...well she'll be able to keep her house. Sounds like a great plan, right?

-------------
Steve
2011 Sport/Air 200
Excalibur 343
2017 Boatmate Tandem Axle Trailer

Former CC owner (77, 80, 95, 88, all SNs)

Former Malibu owner (07, 09)

Posted By: Swatkinz
Date Posted: December-06-2010 at 6:43pm

While we're at it...let's prioritize what the government should do with our money.
1. provide a military that can maintain national security and secure the borders.
2. provide public safety services...fire, police, ems, etc.
3. provide a primary public education (up to 12th grade)
4. support higher education
5. build and maintain infrastructure
6. health care?

What they shouldn't do
1. Provide billions in aid to unappreciative, unreciprocating foreign countries
2. Support illegal immigrants or their offspring regardless of where the offspring are born.
3. Support (in the form of welfare) numerous children to dead beat parents.
4. Rebuild cities like New Orleans just for the sake of "National Pride"

sorry to rant...this tax crap just ticks me off to no end

-------------
Steve
2011 Sport/Air 200
Excalibur 343
2017 Boatmate Tandem Axle Trailer

Former CC owner (77, 80, 95, 88, all SNs)

Former Malibu owner (07, 09)

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: December-06-2010 at 6:57pm

Keegan,

Take the link I sent you on their tax rates and do the math for yourself to see what it would cost. For my income, it would cost me around $12,500 per year more in taxes to live in Canada and have "free" health care. That doesn't count dental, vision or prescriptions. From the sounds of it adding the dental, vision and prescriptions would probably cost me about $2000 more a year. My normal out of pocket costs for co-pays probably offsets that so we'll call that a wash. In my particular situation, my benefits from my company pay a big amount of my premiums and my total cost per year is about $5,000 to cover my entire family. With that being said, it would cost me around $7,000 more every year to be under Canada's system. That assumes no increase in my pay and no tax increases. That's a pretty big difference in my mind and doesn't seem like a "no-brainer" but something worth carefully considering. If you start talking to Canadians, you'll find they still have some similar problems with rising costs. They are also dealing with issues to improve on areas of mismanagement of the funding and operations.

By the way, the reason I couldn't find anything about exemptions or deductions on their tax website is that they don't have any. They can't write off property tax, mortgage interest nor do they have and exemptions or credits for things like we do.

Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: December-06-2010 at 7:01pm

While we're at it...let's prioritize what the government is allowed by the constitution to do with our money.
1. provide a military that can maintain national security and secure the borders.

Steve,

FIFY

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-06-2010 at 7:09pm

I agree with you on many points Steve, but I am not so sure that it would turn out like you say with all the welfare kids crowding your family doctor's office.

Oh and my friend did not just lose her house. She lost her house, her business, and her car. So now she has no means to contribute back to society. How is that helping? How much revenue did the government just lose by taking all that from her? Oh but now she is eligible for government housing, health care, and food stamps. WTF!!!!!!! The system took a contributing member of society and turned her into a leach. You tell me Steve, sounds great right? If she had died it would have all worked out...

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"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier

Posted By: watrski
Date Posted: December-06-2010 at 8:23pm

Until our government decides to turn us back into a country that builds wealth, I can't see how we will pay for it.

The first things I would do:

1. Drug tests for anybody receiving government funds.
2. Reduce all government pay by 15%.
3. Mandate recycling of 100% of all items, no more trash in landfills.
4. Privatize 50% of government programs. NPS and USPS come to mind.
5. Eliminate the TSA and privatize it.
6. Cut taxes for businesses who use american made components IE. if you have a product that is 90% us origin then you get a 90% tax break.
7. Cap lawsuit payouts across the board to $1M.
8. Eliminate tax breaks for renewable energy that are negative producers...IE ethanol.
9. Heavily tax any company that moves its production to other countries.

Posted By: Swatkinz
Date Posted: December-06-2010 at 8:26pm

Keegan,
I'm on your side. The loss that your friend suffered from the cancer was absolutely compounded in a devastating way by the current system. No doubt about it. My point is that the current system is broken and what is coming isn't going to be any better except for a few but it will be worse for many more. They aren't going to make the necessary cuts to fund this thing properly and the American public can't take much more so will we be better off? I don't think so, but that's just me.

-------------
Steve
2011 Sport/Air 200
Excalibur 343
2017 Boatmate Tandem Axle Trailer

Former CC owner (77, 80, 95, 88, all SNs)

Former Malibu owner (07, 09)

Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: December-06-2010 at 8:34pm

All this cold weather invites too much thinking about the real world. I wish the government could do things the way we do it- Once and right or not at all. The changes that are coming will be like a half assed flor and stringer job. Not worth the time put into it.

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"working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier

Posted By: Swatkinz
Date Posted: December-06-2010 at 9:22pm

Keeganino wrote:

The changes that are coming will be like a half assed flor and stringer job. Not worth the time put into it.

You summed up my thoughts with just two sentences that most on here should be able to relate to.

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Steve
2011 Sport/Air 200
Excalibur 343
2017 Boatmate Tandem Axle Trailer

Former CC owner (77, 80, 95, 88, all SNs)

Former Malibu owner (07, 09)

Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: December-06-2010 at 10:35pm

Swatkinz wrote:

While we're at it...let's prioritize what the government should do with our money.
1. provide a military that can maintain national security and secure the borders.
2. provide public safety services...fire, police, ems, etc.
3. provide a primary public education (up to 12th grade)
4. support higher education
5. build and maintain infrastructure
6. health care?

What they shouldn't do
1. Provide billions in aid to unappreciative, unreciprocating foreign countries
2. Support illegal immigrants or their offspring regardless of where the offspring are born.
3. Support (in the form of welfare) numerous children to dead beat parents.
4. Rebuild cities like New Orleans just for the sake of "National Pride"

sorry to rant...this tax crap just ticks me off to no end

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1985 CC 2001-SOLD
Lee Michael Johnson

Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: December-06-2010 at 10:37pm

And for that phospher some or other. If you believe in global warming, you need to see a psychiatrist!!

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1985 CC 2001-SOLD
Lee Michael Johnson

Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: December-07-2010 at 10:01am

funny how we are providing free healthcare to the Iraqians and A-stanians,

can someone provide the link of the discussion we had when the HC bill was first introduced? it would be interesting to see the thought change

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"the things you own will start to own you"

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