I must have been very bad... working on a Moomba
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URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20668
Printed Date: January-11-2025 at 1:55pm
Topic: I must have been very bad... working on a Moomba
Posted By: Luchog
Subject: I must have been very bad... working on a Moomba
Date Posted: February-16-2011 at 11:35pm
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Well, owner calls, 2005 Moomba LSV with Indmar Assault engine (GM 350 TBI) lost gears, I go diagnose the boat at the dock, turn it on and hear crickets on the bellhousing, shifted ZF tranny by hand no response. Suspect a broken damper plate.
I'm dealing with this boat since Monday, had to remove the floor, unattach the bellhousing and found this... 
In order to pull the bellhousing, I had to remove the V-drive, the Hurth supports, Oh, and the bellhousing was missing the lower bolts!! Totally meesed up Bellhousing. 
look how the flywheel scratched the bellhousing. 
Damper plate worn grooves (look at the genious idea to silence the springs!!!) 
The tranny input shaft is worn also, gonna send it to the local tranny expert. My hipotesis is that when the engine was replaced, they forgot the washers between the flywheel and damper so the transmision input was merely into the damper grooves, also the weight of the whole unit (hurth ZF and walter v-drive) which is only held in the middle by the ZF supports and the bellhousing, which also mas missing the lower bolts helped it work uncentered and worn the whole linkage while cracking the BH. What's the experts opinion on this? I'm really considering pulling the engine to assemble everything outside and squeeze it back in again, what a pain!!! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Replies:
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: February-16-2011 at 11:59pm
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wow.I wonder who did the engine replacement...
the grease in the damper springs, is like was put there recently to mask the problem or its old? Might the PO known the upcomming disaster and sold like that? I know the guy and doesn't look like a crook... ------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: February-17-2011 at 12:31am
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Not grease, Sika I believe. It's to prevent the weak springs from rattling.
I'm not sure who replaced the engine, but I'd think he didnt remove the tranny and could not reach the lower bellhousing bolts. It's pretty tight in there!. As for the washers behind the damper, I'm waiting on Eric to chime in, but I'd dare say it had washers sometime because of the marks on the disc. The damper I took out of the Mercruiser didnt have washers, Borgwarner gear there, this uses a ZF-Hurth. IMHO this is an bad installation issue, not an owner asking for cheap "I need to sell" work. You gain nothing from saving on 6 washers and 2 bolts. I met Martin once, he seemed a nice guy. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-17-2011 at 9:57am
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the first thing i noticed was the spline engagement in the damper, I think I mentioned to Form and Function one time that he would need a back set of mounts on his BW/Walters set up because of the weight. I feel that the bottem bolts had nothing to do with the problem because they normally go into a flywheel gaurd.
the break is at the top which leads me to believe weight was an issue, and if yor not sitting eqaully on all four of your mounting points it could cause a twist under power or even hitting a slight wave. I see those Walter set ups all the time and they hang way out and its alot of weight, its an aluminum bellhousing. Its your baby now once you touch it, nailing down the problem is key here so you dont wind up doing it for free the second time. If it were my customer I would ask a thousand questions to get a feel for the history of the boat and what all was done to it ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-17-2011 at 9:59am
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the ZF and BW are the same stack up with a 26 spline input shaft, no washers should be needed on the damper, it should be dished though facing out ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: February-17-2011 at 10:36am
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Eric, We felt the input was merely into the spline of the damper, I will take a look again today but I think there were some washer marks on the damper rear side.
Clearly a new damper and bellhousing will be in order after I get the ZF shaft repaired or replaced. What do you think about pulling the engine for reassembling outside? are there supports for the Walter drive? Where can I shoot you an email? I need to buy a base engine for the Tigé... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: February-17-2011 at 11:21am
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I know more about this boat that the new owner does.
Blown engine a year ago, new base engine was installed, I dont think they removed the tranny for this. Engine supports are missing the top nut. 6 months ago, hit a summerged object, can see how the strut was re-straightened on the base, there's an ugly scar on the hull between the prop and rudder that could be the prop hitting. Alignment was very good though. One month ago this guy bought the boat, funny thing is he's my Nautique's PO. He knows of the engine swap but not of the underwater gear repair. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-18-2011 at 10:18am
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I may have a shaft for that trans, I cant imagine the shaft thru the dealer would be cheap, zf450d?????
last time I checked the trans was around 1100.00 complete direct from ZF, not the Moomba dealer, that may be an option, do you guys have insurance down there that would cover a repair like this, it may be beneficial to turn in a claim e-mail lavine9153@roadrunner.com what is wrong with the engine? lottsa new base engines around in the 1500 buck range ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: February-18-2011 at 1:43pm
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I have not asked for price at the local dealership yet. Yes it's a 450 D.
I guess I wont need and Indmar Bellhousing, any 350 inboard will work right? I dont think boat is insured, nor there arent any moomba or indmar dealers neither. Just shoot you an email for my other patient. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-19-2011 at 10:31am
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yes Luch, its the same BH as any Borg warner would fit into, Ive scrapped those tranny's more than once and replaced with a BW, direct fit, how bad are the splines on the input shaft? can you take a pic of them?
the transmission you have (450d) is actually a Hurth transmission bought out by ZF marine, it is almost an exact copy of a Borg Warner, stolen and reverse engineered in Podiva Italy... as was the PCM (irm 40's) reverse engineered from the 1500 series BW, Borg warner should be flattered..... ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: February-19-2011 at 2:10pm
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I will take pics on monday, but the splines on the shaft end are gone aprox 1/8 - 1/4 inch. We have though of adding a washer between the damper and the flywheel and it would fit on the undamaged spline, but as you have said in the other topic, around here this kind boat's are the Mercedez Benz, and we couldnt guarantee this work either. So, after I get a quote for the parts it will be a new shaft or we wont guarantee the job.
Sorry to insist, did you get my Email? I have that guy stepping on my toes. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-19-2011 at 4:23pm
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No, i did not, please send it again....personally, many many transmissions only use 75% of the splines. so moving the damper is a good repair onto the splined area, but with the intentions of not giving him a warranty. once you crack into the transmission its your problem if you decide to change the shaft. buying a new transmission is the way to go, but i have a feeling it wont be cheap, if you go thru the dealer (Moomba) i would bet they will want close to 3500.00 for the trans....the smart man would use dealer pricing and go to ZF direct out of Florida.
try sending that e-mail again ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: February-19-2011 at 4:51pm
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My intention is to have the trans repaired/quoted on the ZF dealer in Buenos Aires, then any trans warranty will be on the dealer. Then I install as the book says and warranty my work too.
If he wants to save on the tranny work, no warranties at all. But I'd still prefer to have the shaft replaced. Just sent another mail, tell me if you got it. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: February-19-2011 at 8:07pm
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note on your invoice if there is a problem with the trans, labor to R and R is not covered under your warranty. i will look for the e-mail ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: February-20-2011 at 3:11pm
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Wow, that is a serious mess.
Good luck on the repair Luch! ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 1:02am
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Here's the tranny rebuild costs by local ZF dealer
Gasket set U$D650 Seal kit U$D107 Shaft repair U$D930 (will machine out the remaining spline end and hot drive a splined bushing in it. Labor U$D1190 Total U$D2870. Cost of a new ZF45D unit in Argentina is U$D 5500. Plus ATF oil (U$D25) Damper plate (around U$D 330-390) Bellhousing U$D 585 My labor....... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 9:48am
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Luch, do you want me to look for that shaft?
last time I called on one of those transmissions form ZF Florida it was 1100.00 brand new Ive come to realize something, im not charging enough ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 10:43am
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I looked for the gasket and seal kit (public prices) and those were not that terribly marked up. You can always expect at least 100% markups on foreign products around here. I expected 200%.
What I do think it's though is the shaft repair and the labor. If I were to run all the hassle to get him a new tranny imported, I'd charge him U$D 5500 too!!! No kidding, this are expensive things down here and this guy carries them in stock. Bringing one would also put him on hold for another 45 days at minimun. I even considered getting a new or warranty rebuilt Velvet but it would create the hassle of making the adaptor and relocating stuff around. Bottom line is, this boats are the Audis or Mercedez around here, to play in this league you gotta pay... Eric, I really appreciate the offer. what do you think about the repair technique? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 5:45pm
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holly molly!!645 on a gasket set!!!
HAHA guys drive MB and like to pay spare parts as if they were for fiats!!! ------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 5:58pm
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seeing all that money involved i´d charge him no less than u$d1k...or more just in case they f*ck up the tranny work and you have to go again with the job...
is the tranny work guaranteed? For the differnce between repair and the new one i´d get the new one..if they have it in stock....sell the core and get some money back... I´ve been with tranny repairs here and they never lasted..ended up replacing the tranny with a refurbed unit..(big mistake!!!) ------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 9:55pm
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Kapla, did you get that refurb trans from Bettiga?
He warranties his work, at least he claims so, but I never heard anyone complaining yet. We are installing new bellhousing and damper, and probably some washers between the damper and flywheel to drive the splines in for better contact. I will also look into making some supports for the Walter unit. Bettiga offered me a 9 springs damper for U$D390, gotta see what Barrera offered for U$D330. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-05-2011 at 10:19am
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Luch can you take a pic of the splines? im pretty sure i have a spare shaft, one of my guys cleaned up and moved it and i briefly looked thursday and found the case....i would hold off on the seal and gasket kit, because its all o-rings and input and output seal. order the input and output seal seperatly.... TMI in Florida has them (transmission marine) 800-462-8848 dont know the number outside the US though. put the 650 in your pocket,
I will look this morning (Saturday) for the shaft. how is your english? if you would like you can call me at my shop 330-273-8291, btw, my english is good, no twangs, just a little yankee lol ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: March-05-2011 at 11:35am
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Ha! just left you a lovely message on the atm.
The service claimed that they had to put it all apart to take the shaft out, they even asked me to send the oil cooler for pressure testing, I guess that's for the warranty. I'm probably gonna drop by this week to take a look and make numbers with them. Custom polices are changing down here, not trying to stop imports, just make them more expensive, I fear anything you send will end up detent at customs with a ridiculous fee, not a gasket set maybe, but a machined shaft could be stopped. Anyway it's a good heads up on the gasket set/seal kit, gonna check what they did on the unit and talk that out. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-05-2011 at 11:46am
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here at my shop? im here now. ATM? yeah, wtf, thats what my wife thinks i am....automatic teller machine (money machine)
what is your version of atm? ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: March-05-2011 at 12:57pm
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Luciano,
Yes, watch out for customs, especially changes to customs rules. I would make sure you know the rules so you don't get surprised and end up eating your profits. Hopefully Argentina is nothing like Brazil for Customs purposes. My former employer got burnt for a large sum of $$ when the corrupt Brazilian customs dept seized and never released a spare parts order of all sorts of electronics, motors, and power transmission stuff. If you have any customs questions regarding stuff coming out of America, or wherever, LMK. Now Argentina I can't offer much support for regarding customs laws. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-06-2011 at 10:07am
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nothing an envelope cant take care of ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-06-2011 at 10:12am
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come to think of it all the times i went in and out of south America and the simple hand waves to let me thru, i shoulve belted up and stuffed my luggage, a man could easily get in alot of trouble down there. its funny about the cultural differences, I was begging the company i contracted for to keep me on and all the guys that worked for the company down there wanted to come to America, they all thought that you could come to the US and be rich...not so true ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: April-14-2011 at 12:02am
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Started aseembling everything today, 10 hours later I got the flywheel back on, the new damper, new bellhousing, inline unit and supports attached to both transmission and hull.
Tomorrow will drop the Vdrive, set the alignment and plug everything else on, luckily will test ride tomorrow and deliver after some clean up. Surpringly it took less time to put it all back on than I thought. Transmission supports were a pain in the A as the tranny didnt slip through the hole in the back seat into the BH with the supports on, so I had to put them once it was all set up. I forgot to take the camera with me as I wanted to show you the damper plate I got, it's a pretty tought unit. Question, how much would labour cost for a job like this be on the US? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: April-14-2011 at 2:05pm
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Luch you wanna know who did the engine swap? Gorecki...nice job juh? ------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: April-14-2011 at 10:02pm
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Kapla just got off the phone with you, I think the real damage was after the boat took a hit, but still there were some things missing that belong to the engine swap job.
10 more hours on the boat today, it really took longer than I expected to set the alignment, reaching the engine supports was real hard, also had to do some mods to the brackets attaching to the BH since the one we got is not an exact replacement for the Indmar BH. Tomorrow will give the final adjustments on mounts and couplings, put the floor and upholstery back on water test. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: April-15-2011 at 10:15am
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how many hours total? what kind of watch is the guy wearing? ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: April-15-2011 at 11:51am
one of those that shines a lot and will outlive us all after nuclear war. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
eric lavine wrote:Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: April-19-2011 at 10:31pm
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Update, finished putting it all together today, floors, panels, etc, before taking it to the water had the idea to test ignition... nothing... both batteries are 4 years old and death empty... got a fresh one, hit the key... nothing... wire battery to stater... nothing.
Took starter out, test... weak, needs rebuilt. The other starter I got from a cracked engine is as bad or worse than this one. Call the owner to inform he's pissed at me as he wont be boating next weekend, oh and the cracked engine owner told him to "borrow" his starter since it was running when the engine was dismantled, sure, under 10 inches of water. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: April-20-2011 at 9:51am
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one more lesson, dont ruin your weekend to make his weekend enjoyable....dont worry you'll grow thick skin....one cure is tell him you will need time and a half shop rate for the weekend...that usually will calm him and strangly he will wait another weekend ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: April-20-2011 at 12:35pm
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I can understand the guy put a lot of money in parts and patiently waited and things keep breaking and costing him dough, he spent of a lot of it in a crappy boat and dont want to see it.
What really pisses me off is that "his friend" who recommended the boat and surveyed it for him is still speaking on how lazy I'm that I'm not delivering the boat or why I'm not using the other f. up starter I have lying around. I know this guy, he has an inboard too, and likes to touch more than ke knows... his day will come. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: April-20-2011 at 2:59pm
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Hey lucho my friend have a brand new rear mount (bellhousing) starter for sbc that might work...give a call and I can hook you up with them...
they were not able to use it as it would not engage with their Flywheel, seems its for larger flywheel than the one in their volvo 290... ------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: April-20-2011 at 10:26pm
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dont make his problem your problem (in your mind), these aren't ambulances and they are a not a necessity, i can tell he is getting under your skin. its guys like him that ruin it for the good ones out there ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: April-27-2011 at 4:05pm
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Luch
I found the pictures of the starter... 
 ------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: April-27-2011 at 9:27pm
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Had the starter rebuilt for U$D125, installed and fired up.
Water tested the boat today, all's good but too much water coming from the packing gland, adjusted, and nothing, added one ring of packing. Will adjust details tomorrow on the water and deliver. Eric, I had never drove a boat with a Walter's, where the U-joint? It is more noisy on neutral than in forward gear, is that because of joint play? Reverse is a bit noisy too. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-12-2011 at 1:54am
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13 days after boat was delivered and 2 non attended phone calls I got to speak with the owner, he told me the boat performs and asked if there was anything left to pay... WAY YES, so I start giving him the detail,
damper machine job U$D85 Starter rebuild U$D125 misc hardware U$D17 ATF 3q U$D24 Labour U$D1095 includes: going to the marina and diagnosing pulling boat apart-put it all back together taking care of delivering and picking tranny at transport travelling 300km to pay tranny job (he asked me to take care of it) retire/install starter engine/tranny alignment test boat fix 2 leaky ballast pumps add rope to packing gland. +/-60 man hours without the tranny trip He asked to "fine tune the numbers", sure I did... I discounted him 1 peso (U$D .25cents) ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: May-12-2011 at 1:59am
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Why did you deliver the boat before they settled up what they owe you? ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: May-12-2011 at 9:36am
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uh oh ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: May-12-2011 at 10:03am
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I dont understand people sometimes, I know for a fact this guy who does my machining has a million bucks in the bank, he drives the biggest POS that im even afraid to test drive, if he gave me the car i wouldnt take it...95 cutlass sierra, he wouldnt tow it cause he was to fcn cheap, So my guy threw a front wheel bearing on it, the worst one ive ever seen...it was bill time and he said you are going to discount the bill for the commision on the milling machine i sold for you, (more to the story of the many customers that i send him) I had the figure in mind and because he said that, I automatically threw 50 bucks on top of the bill. you've heard me talk about the dumbass charge.....this one is called the cheap ass charge ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-12-2011 at 11:27am
This kind of deals seem to be ran different here than in the states, let's just say things are pretty much "informal" down here, and by this I dont mean this is worse or better. The ideal scenario would be that after I test ride the boat and make sure everything is ok, we go test ride it together, I tell him how great I think his boat is and when he proudly says "YES" I show him the bill (hahaha) he pays, we shake hands and he takes his boat faaar away. This happens somethimes, when customers have a human understanding of each other, but most are not. He still needs me for directions on a stringer job patch, so he will pay. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: May-12-2011 at 2:36pm
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but...did he pay yet???
------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: anthonylizardi
Date Posted: May-12-2011 at 5:16pm
You should have kept the watch as a collateral payment. 
I curious about the story ending... did he pay? |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: May-13-2011 at 10:10am
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come on Luch, a handshake aint what it used to be.
good luck. tell him that is impairative that you need the boat to re-align it, or the warranty is void, chances are he will bring it back, or that you left the damper plate bolts loose....see which way im going with this ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: May-13-2011 at 9:24pm
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He showed today at the shop, handed half the money cash, said he will be paying the rest by june.
He wants to finish some other works I saw the boat needed (transmision lag bolts dont bite much on the composite stringer) so he still wants me to coordinate the job with the plastics guy. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |