Stringer project, possible v-drive conv.
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Boat Maintenance
Forum Discription: Discuss maintenance of your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20811
Printed Date: November-20-2024 at 6:33am
Topic: Stringer project, possible v-drive conv.
Posted By: wlaust3
Subject: Stringer project, possible v-drive conv.
Date Posted: March-03-2011 at 3:05pm
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Hi Guys,
This is my first post on this site but I've been reading it for years. Since I seem to always be working on my boat it's about time I become more active in the community. Especially since this is going to be the largest project to date that I will be undertaking. My intention is to use this topic to document my work and get some input along the way. I have a 1985 Ski Nautique 2001. The Bad: The gel coat is cracking on both sides near the water line. One side of the engine cradle bolts can spin freely. The floor is separating from the sides throughout the middle of the boat. The Plan: At minimum I am going to replace all the stringers and floor. I don't want to replace the foam. I'm probably going to loosely follow form&functions stringer replacement. I would like to eventually convert the boat to a v-drive so will be keeping that in mind when designing the stringers. I probably don't have the time to do it this year since I intend to finish the project by mid June. I am looking for a Walter RV-26D 1.5:1 v-drive, used or rebuilt, if anyone has any ideas where I could get one. New is $2k, which is more then I am willing to spend at this point. I have been thinking about it and planning since I saw 84resto's conversion a couple years ago. I have to say both 84's and form's conversion was no less than amazing. The boat is for wakeboarding and surfing only. I am concerned with function above all else. So far I have removed everything except the floor/stringer. so I am just about ready to go. I will post pictures soon. I will also be attempting to model everything in google sketch-up which should be interesting. Lots more information to come, but for now I have to get back to my day job. |
Replies:
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: March-03-2011 at 3:08pm
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way cool..looks like you are on the good tracks...
get the pictures comming!!!  ------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: Ranger
Date Posted: March-03-2011 at 8:26pm
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Welcome to the site.
Jeff |
Posted By: srbranum
Date Posted: March-03-2011 at 9:37pm
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Welcome.
I was like you a year ago this week. I don't have the same boat as you but I did a complete stringer rebuild in 3 months and used the boat all summer. See my rebuild project and if you have any questions, post them on here. There is so much information on this website and people willing to help that you could rebuild that boat from top to bottom with the posts and members help. ------------- I have to keep her running 'cause I can't afford a new one |
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: March-03-2011 at 11:25pm
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Sounds like a cool project. Cant wait to see pics. ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 12:49am
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Here are a few ideas:
-Leave some pockets on the flor/stringers at the transom for easier rudder and front engine parts like water pump, belts, etc. -Dripless seal would be desirable since adjusting the packing gland below the Vdrive is... unconfortable at least. -If you're using a walter unit, get some supports for it as it's too much weight hanging out the transmission and the prop will push it up too. I'd get a PCM Power Vee unit or a ZF. -Get a new strut for a 1 1/8'' shaft for the reduction gear. Also you might consider that a 13 or 13.5'' prop + hull clearance fits. You'll get less shaft angle this way, which means better efficiency. The oem strut fits a 14+ clearance. -Think were you'll be placing the new gas tank, I think you'll want it amid-fore ship. or under the bow. -What engine do you have? hours? condition? Since this project might take some time it could be a good moment to refresh it or beef it up with the popular heads/cam/intake combo. Once it's all installed and running it's a pain to dissasemble it for unit repairs. That's all I can think about now. Good luck!!! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 9:36am
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if you are going to build a v-drive boat, search for a self contained unit such as a borg warner 10-04-011 or a zf/hurth 630 v..... i purchased a 10-04 v-drive for 300.00 on evil pay, cracked it open and it was like brand new.....but, being a capitalist I'll sell it for 4k. thats not the point i was making though, the point is there alot of tranny's out there for this application and you dont necessarily need a Walters. if i was to dive into a v-drive boat, my very first choice would be a ZF/Hurth 630v, MC uses them, malibu uses them,
the 630 is a lightweight full power forward full power reverse transmission, which means you can spin the output either direction under full power for both ranges. you can find a cut sheet on their website for dimensions and watch e-bay because they do pop up on their for 300.00 but then again you'll be bidding against me lol ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: wlaust3
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 10:28am
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@v-drive
The driving factor for use of the Walters v-drive is that it is territory already traveled and well documented on this forum. I also want to stay away from needing a different or modified shaft. Generally speaking I want to keep things as simple and cost efficient as possible. That being said, I will look into the ZF/Hurth 630v. @gas tank This would be as far forward as possible under the floor in the center. Where the battery box currently is going back as far to achieve at least 30 gallons. The wooded crossmember between the two main stringer in that area would be moved back or a metal brace used between them above the gas tank. I would choose here over the front to maintain the most consistent wake. @bow two batteries as far forward as possible, bunch of stereo equipment, sub, and water ballast. Not sure why that air box or whatever it is take up so much space but I would have to make sure I had proper air flow. @engine Ford 351w, GT-40p heads. I don't plan on doing any engine work except for taking off the oil pan and cleaning it out a bit. When I replaced the heads 2 years ago the compression was solid and the same across all cylinders. @Timeline This is really going to drive a lot of my decisions. I want the boat to be usable by mid june. Doesn't need to be pretty but needs to be able to pull me on a wakeboard. The idea is that I would buy the transmission I want to use for the v-drive and fit it before I cut out the old stringers. This way I can get a better idea of how everything needs to be. When I replace the stringers I do it to support both v and direct configs and build the front up as if it was a v config. Then based on time do whatever I thought I could complete. I also can't actually glass anything for at least a month because I am located in the NE and my garage is not heated. I do have a propane heater I will use but figure it should be 50-60 outside so I can heat it to 75. I plan on getting the floor and foam out this weekend. I cut a bit of the floor out last night with my sawzall just to see if it would do the trick. Seems so. Any advice for getting the foam out. I ripped a chunk out and there were tons of tiny crystals on the outside...water logged you think? heh. Not sure if it's easier frozen or not but then again I don't have much of a choice right now. Thanks for all the input. |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 10:54am
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You will need a new shaft if you're going with a reduction gear. The 1'' shaft isnt strong enough for the torque transmitted to the larger prop you'll use.
If you're aiming at a good final product, this will not end up cost efficient in any way. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: wlaust3
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 10:54am
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Missed a couple things
@prop I realize keeping the 1" shaft in combination with the gear reduction will severely limit my prop options and one way or the other my top end will take a hit. For simplicities sake and cost I think it's just the way it's going to be. Plus I don't ever need to go fast. My lake is saturated with skiers and therefore awesome ski boats. I always just go with them. I think the new ski nautique just hover above the water, only explanation I can come up with for that white wash trailing behind them that they call a wake. My boat just can't compare for skiing. @floor side separation What is causing the sides of the floor to be separated from the hull? Is the hull flexing out or the floor pulling in. Currently the boat is just on the trailer. Is this appropriate or does there need to be additional support? Do I have to pull the sides in somehow when I glass the new floor in? thx, Bill |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 11:02am
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Bill, the shaft diameter is not just a question of prop selection, since you're going with a reduction more torque will be transmitted to the prop, wich will also be larger pitched, you need a beefier shaft or it will bend/cut because of the torsionals.
There are safety concerns as well you see. You base boat performance off the prop, if you dont have a prop selection that will perform on that boat dont even bother in taking the foam out. You are thinking on a way to big project to cheap on a strut and shaft replacement. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: wlaust3
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 11:29am
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Here is the logic I was using, which may very well be faulty.
There are a certain set of props available for the 1" diameter shaft. I would think that the size/pitch combinations available would not be able to deliver more torque then the shaft could withstand. Granted there is more torque available from the gearing but I would think the actual amount of torque on shaft is based on the prop. Maybe with those props available I can't get the desired performance. I have a decent understanding of mechanics(physics degree) although there is often something missed from theoretical to actual. Regardless, figuring this out right now isn't necessary. I will dig into the deeper though now. I do not want to sacrifice quality for cost but also don't want to go overboard with more than I need. Either way the advice is appreciated, and I will come back with more support for whatever I eventually decide, which may be switching to a larger shaft. -Bill |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 11:42am
What type of reduction would you be looking at with the Walters? 1.5:1? If so, I agree that a 1-1/8" shaft would be ideal- theres a reason all the CC v-drives use that shaft size. That being said, I would bet that 1" would be sufficiently strong. Torque transmitted to the driveline is in fact determined by prop size, and there are several props in the 13x16 range for the 1" 1.23 boats that should suit this application just fine. High hp/tq engines like the ZR-409 and Joe's monster 408w use the 1.23 box and decent sized props and have not run into issues yet with the 1" shaft. I suspect that the 20% advantage of the 1.5:1 vs. 1.23:1 would be offset by his lower output small block anyways- at least compared to Joe's engine. Regarding the stringer project, I will say that I think you will be undertaking a very aggressive schedule if you want the boat back on the water by June. Especially if this is your first stringer project. Figure it will take you 200-300 hours to complete it... thats a lot of nights and weekends. A v-drive conversion (or even just adding provisions to add one in the future) will add to this number, probably significantly. There will be a lot more unknowns in that type of project, and much fewer resources to help answer questions. Just something to think about! ------------- |
wlaust3 wrote:Posted By: WakeSlayer
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 12:16pm
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I think that if you got after it starting today, June is pretty realistic. But you really have to go hard.
$2000, 200 hrs, 20 cases of beer. You will run into many other things you will want to or should address at the same time. That figure also doesn't count planning time, staring at stuff trying to figure it out, and lunch hours at the hardware store. ------------- Mike N 1968 Mustang |
Posted By: wlaust3
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 12:45pm
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I do realize my timeline is quite aggressive. But I do want to provision for a v-drive conversion as best as I can. Which hopefully will include getting a v-drive before I actually install new stringers.
I do have a lot of friends who like to use my boat, like to drink beer, and help out a lot with the projects I do. So with a bit of luck I will be close to meeting my timeline. I do have a full time job that tends to drain me sometimes. A bit about myself, I do not have experience doing this sort of thing. My experience is in doing thing I haven't done before and my ability to do them with some degree of competence. I also am very patient and don't get upset when I mess things up. Which will inevitably happen during the project which will cost me a couple hundred bucks and half a day of work. But that's just the way it is. I try to be realistic and really do take to heart all the advice I get. I do sometimes play devils advocate in order to make sure I get all the information possible to make my decisions. I can tell already this is going to be a lot of fun. I'll get some pictures up on sunday. |
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 12:49pm
Good point Mike. The guys at my local Ace were beginning to think I worked there. I was in there almost every day for 3 months and know the fastener hardware isle better than they do. 200 hours of purpose drivben work. 500 hours of staring and figuring.  ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: wlaust3
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 12:56pm
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If people want to argue something here you go.
Walters RV-26D vs ZF/Hurth 630v pros/cons in regards to the boat I own 85 2001, 351w BW 1:1 VD. Also gearing 1.46:1, 1.23:1, not sure whats available on the 630v hopefully my actually questions won't get lost in these posts...fiberglass hull separation, quoted below -Bill
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Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 1:02pm
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Once the stringers are rotten all the flex causes the separation. The floor and hull are moving independently because of delamination. You dont need to pull the sides in when you rebuild. Glassing the floor to the walls ties everything together to make it stable. ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 1:12pm
I disagree. I found that blocking the chines was required to keep the hull from sagging while on the trailer... this will have a similar effect as "pulling the sides in". Sounds like youve got a lot of ambition to get this project done... good for you. Just dont fizzle out half way through and end up with an unfinished project! This happens more often than you might think. ------------- |
Posted By: WakeSlayer
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 1:23pm
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Your friends may turn out to be busy more than you think. This is an absolute bitch of a project. You will want to punch yourself in the nuts a bunch of times in your journey for taking it on.
You also are going to need a bunch of tools. Grinder, jigsaw, power planar, hand tools, drills, bits. A band saw and a table saw will make life a lot easier too. ------------- Mike N 1968 Mustang |
Posted By: wlaust3
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 1:33pm
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I don't know why I said "pulling the sides in".
My fear is that the trailer isn't sufficiently supporting the boat. This would imply that stress would have always existed between the fiberglass floor and sides of the hull while on the trailer and therefore the source of the delamination. Someone tell me I am wrong. What would prevent the delamination from happening again. (Besides better workmanship :). Seems a lot of the stringer rebuilds are done off of the trailer. This would be a pain for me but if it has to be done it has to be done. I have about a 50% follow through with the projects I start. I love this boat though so I will finish it. In my mind the extent is really what is in question. I have also been thinking about this, and documenting ideas for years. |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 1:34pm
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We'll be staring a complete stringer/floor job at some point. Tear out is what I do best. Putting it back together is painfully slow. I got to wonder, how long did it take Correct Craft to do a stringer/floor job once the hull popped out of the mold? Probably only a day or two at most. They were working out of garages. How'd they do it? ------------- |
Posted By: WakeSlayer
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 1:46pm
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Bruce,
I am reasonably sure that we could all knock it out quickly if we had a clean slate, pre-cut stringers, and experience of doing it repeatedly. That, and then factor in that they don't care about the boats in the same sense that we do. They were just slamming them down the line, nothing special. They weren't building classic boats. Just boats. My SN took me half the time to what I have done vs. the Mustang. And I did not replace the primaries in the first one. ------------- Mike N 1968 Mustang |
Posted By: wlaust3
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 2:08pm
Posting these mostly to figure out how to upload and display images, please be patient if this doesn't work as I hope.
I had to build up above the rafters and take the wheels off the trailer to get enough clearance/travel to get the engine out. I was pretty nervous, I don't lift heavy things often and there seemed to be a lot of possible points of failure. All worked out though. 
I gave my roommate some 2x4's and asked him to build me something to put the engine on. I think his stand could hold 10 times what is required...I'm not complaining though. The whole ordeal took 4 people about 5 hours. Disconnecting, figuring everything out, etc. About as long as I expected. Had some issues disconnecting the shaft coupler from the transmission. Just didn't want to separate. Lots of tapping with a hammer, screw driver and wondering what I was missing. Finally let loose though. |
Posted By: wlaust3
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 2:10pm
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Images too large...noted.
Any easy way to change the size? |
Posted By: storm34
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 2:26pm
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I post all my pictures on facebook first. Sounds stupid but you can load any size image and they resize them automatically.
Looks like you have plenty of ambition on this thing. It'll be fun to see your progress. Good luck! ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 2:32pm
MS Paint. ------------- |
Posted By: wlaust3
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 2:41pm
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I wasn't sure if there was an easy way to set a max size in the image tag.
Or if I can just go HTML crazy. Easy enough to resize before I upload though. |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 2:57pm
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I like this one.
http://www.shrinkpictures.com/ - Re-Sizing Tool you can re-name your files (photos) before you "save" to exactly what is in the photo. So that when people do an image search, that's what comes up. |
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: March-04-2011 at 3:48pm
If you have the original trailer they are designed to support the hull and would not likely cause that kind of damage alone. Tim is right about blocking it up. The boat does sag on the trailer and that is exaggerated when the stringers have delammed or have been removed. You can definitely do this on the trailer but blocking is required. Another easy way to get smaller pics is to lower the resolution on your camera to the lowest it will go. They wont make great prints but will display fine on the screen. Usually 640x480. Cant use HTML in the threads. ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-05-2011 at 10:06am
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btw, no comparison of a Walters to a 630, but if this helps, model A, lamborgini
if you search Luchs threads you will see the end result of a Walters hanging in a boat. 630v comes in a 1.52 ratio... Walters- needs a box ie: pcm, BW, zf 450 for ranges, 2 sets of cooler lines, 2 oil changes, 4 mounts, only good for forward in forward, very heavy, costly to repair....to many moving parts, outdated zf 630, 1 cooler, 2 mounts, lightweight, you can put the selecter in either position to go forward under full power, used in many 30 ft sea-rays pushing mass and spinning big wheels ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: March-05-2011 at 11:26am
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Eric, there's just one issue I see with the 630 unit and that it it's short profile, the 1:1 plus walter setup or the PCM Power Vee have a longer profile allowing engine placement on the verty stern of the boat and not needing to modify the shaft log.
In such a small boat you would end with a pretty short angled shaft. Do you get my point? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-05-2011 at 11:43am
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yes true, but you move the engine a touch forward if need be, post this guy some pics of you kunundrum ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: wlaust3
Date Posted: March-07-2011 at 12:55pm
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So I cut out the floor and removed about 200 lbs of frozen foam. When I put everything back together I'm going to need more ballast :). I still have a bunch of demo work to do in the bow. Hopefully I'll get everything cleaned out by Wednesday so I can start figuring out what wood I'm going to buy.
Obviously dug fir for the main stringers but what should I use for the secondary? I am not replacing the foam and I'm going to use plywood for the floor. I'm thinking 1/2" marine grade. I want the secondary stringers to be beefier since next summer the engine may move to the back and the primary stringers will have cutouts for the engine though the middle. I'm bad with pictures. I'll get my act together soon though as pictures are worth a thousand words. -Bill |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-07-2011 at 1:09pm
Better start reading more carefully. 
Go with doug fir on the secondaries if you can. If its not available, Pete told me that hemlock or a clear white pine are suitable alternatives. Dont bother with marine grade ply. Exterior grade uses the same waterproof glue at 20% of the cost. Marine grade simply has fewer internal voids, which is a non-issue for a floor... its only needed if youre building a hull out of it. ------------- |
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: March-07-2011 at 3:46pm
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If you only use half inch for the floor you will have to use a lot of glass to make it solid. I used 3/4" in the back and 2 layers of 3/4" from the pylon forward so that you have some meat to bolt the seats down to. I dont think half inch is gonna cut it when it comes to mounting your seats. ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-07-2011 at 4:49pm
Keegan, I've got to disagree and feel you went slightly heavy on you floor but, in your case, seeing your stature you're probably very smart.
Yes, 1/2" is on the light side but with glass on both sides and proper support from the stringer system is fine. I'd say using 5/8 would be a good compromise. Glueing some additional strips of ply just under the seat base screws is a good idea. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Keeganino
Date Posted: March-07-2011 at 5:49pm
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Ok lets all make fun of the fat kid
The two most rotten areas on my boat were around the pylon and under the seat bases- the two areas of the floor that are under the most stress and flex. I would imagine that flex allows more water intrusion to these areas so my rationing was that if you reduce the flex you increase the years of safe operation. Probably over the top but I can tell you I will never worry about it either. Ply wood is a lot cheaper than epoxy... We both seem to agree 1/2" is skimpy. ------------- "working on these old boats may not be cost effective but as it shows its what it brings into your life that matters" -Roger http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4897" rel="nofollow - 1973 Skier |
Posted By: wlaust3
Date Posted: March-07-2011 at 6:02pm
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I'm sold on 3/4" exterior plywood.
And I'll probably do something fancy for the pylon area especially since I'm not putting the battery box back. I already put my batteries far forward in the bow. |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: March-08-2011 at 10:07am
posted the internal guts of a 630v, very robust as you can tell ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |