She runs great then dies
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Boat Maintenance
Forum Discription: Discuss maintenance of your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21432
Printed Date: November-20-2024 at 4:11am
Topic: She runs great then dies
Posted By: Manison
Subject: She runs great then dies
Date Posted: April-23-2011 at 9:24pm
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I ahve a 1982 Ski Nautique 2001. We have been working on her for two years now and we have a new problem.
We will be running in the water no problem and then it just dies completely for no apparent reason after about 40 minutes to an hour We can then wait for ten or 12 minutes and she will re-start no problem. Somebody (a boat mechanic)asked me if i had changed the ignition system and i have not. He recommended i change the distributor cap and the eleectrical ignition system to a mallory, He said i should be able to get the poarts at west marine for $98 but i cannot seem to find any part numbers and have no idea what part of the ignition system he could be talking about. He said it is custting ourt beacuse the distributor and rotor are getting hot and misfiring. He said the fix is really simple. Has anyone heard of this before ? Thanks again Nick |
Replies:
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: April-23-2011 at 11:05pm
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Did you put in an electronic conversion kit to replace the points??
Sounds like a hot coil not the distributor to me. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-23-2011 at 11:33pm
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Nick,
I'll be blunt here and say you do not have much mechanical background, don't want to take it to someone for service and have been asking for advice from some mechanic. Close? We'e all here to help and have plenty of pros here that can but we do need some more info. Try to fill us in on anything you know. As Paul above questioned, do you know what the current ignition is? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Manison
Date Posted: April-24-2011 at 4:37am
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Somewhat close. You are absolutely right i am not a mechanic, The advice was give to me by a friends boat mechanic who i visited and he had heard about our boat problems. but here is the story and where the boat is to date
We got the boat two years ago (Jan 09) for free. The previous owner got the boat to the point where it would not run, gas spitting out of his new carb. Myself and a partner then started working on getting the boat running. With lots of help from reading the forum we started to work through removing all of the Autozone parts (which included the starter motor) from the boat, and that summer we got the boat running quite well although on occassion the boat would just stop, the engine would just cut out, and as we are not mechanics we are then stuck. We would crank it over until it started again, sometime immediately other times it would take a few minutes., Last year, while we were hoping to get more use out of the boat two things happened. My partner forgot to put in the plug, and almost (but not quite) sunk us and our raw water impellar gave out so we got very hot. So last year we all gave up on the boat somewhat, but we are trying again We fixed the impellar and again we can have it run great at home and it never cuts out, the boat starts first time, but when we get in the water after about 45 minutes the boat will just cut out, we can be travelling at speed or just idling and it happens. I have a number of things i need to look at and although i am not a mechanic i think any one of these could be my problem. 1. One of the clips for my distributor cap have been stripped so i cannot tighten the clip on one side to hold on the cap. I cannot get enough purchase so the clip is "somewhat loose" on one side. Can i buy new clips, or do i just put in a bigger screw (self tapper) to get that clip tight ? or do i need a whole new distributor ? 2. My exhaust manifold has a 90 degree fitting where the seawater circulation system enters the manifold. One of these on one side of the boat is plastic (and breaking/falling apart)the other is brass and i think has already been replaced. I need to replace the broken fitting but not sure of it size and thread and can i go with a brass fitting ? 3. The ignition switch is not completely tight in the dash board. I don't know if it was replaced previously but occassionally it will turn a little 4. Fuel Pump. The fuel pump looks like a marine fuel pump with the double diaphragm but does not have a site tube, so i am a little suspicous if this is a true marine fuel pump. I was told that there were some old fuel pumps that could look like a marine pump but may not be. I feel as though this should be replaced, but am uncertain. 5. Do i need to change the water fuel seperator regulary I feel like this is a confessional. These are issues i have at the moment, and i know (or think) that any of the above could be causing my problem when we cut out I want to get this boat to run consistently well, as taking it out and then having to re-start the engine and then get back to the dock has become somewhat of a chore. We can run all day long on the driveway, starts great and keeps running, idles lovely and does not get to hot. Now i have my list written out the plan is to complete all 4 issues before we go out in the water again for our next wet test. So far our venture has cost us about 2K with new marine parts, so we are still happy to keep trying but this is our last year getting it going consistently. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I am sure you will tell me to complete all 4 or maybe 5 and then wet test again. As for the ignition question, i have no idea if it is an electronic ignition, how would i know ??? What do i need to look for. I will be in the boat tomorrow and can take pictures if that will help Thanks Nick |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: April-24-2011 at 10:29am
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does the boat sputter or just completely cut out? attack it correctly and you wont be doing any parts swapping, first you must determine if it is a fuel or a spark issue, when it cuts out pop off the arrestor and stroke the throttle looking for a nice stream of fuel down the throat...if you have fuel chances are you have an ignition problem which would normally start at the coil...but again you could have bad connections anywhere in the circuit such as at the Lanyard. one of the best things going is a troubleshooting chart with outlines. if you dont know how to attack it you'll be throwing plugs at it, fuel pumps carbs distributors and rolling the dice that one of them may be the problem....i would say you have an ignition problem from what it sounds like is happening as stated from above ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: LaurelLakeSkier
Date Posted: April-24-2011 at 11:29am
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As has been suggested, it certainly sounds like an ignition problem that is likely narrowed to the coil. Check the coil next time the boat stops. I'm willing to bet that it will be quite hot. Its possible that the PO swapped out the coil with the wrong replacement, took out the ballast resistor or turned the coil over sideways rather than leaving it sitting upright. I'd guess that one (maybe all of the above) is where you'll find your problem. ------------- The world is full of youth—what we need is a fountain of smart! |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-24-2011 at 11:31am
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Nick,
Do you have or have access to a volt/Ohm meter. Although at test light isn't the greatest tool, it will work for a few basic tests. I agree with Eric that the problem as described points towards a ignition issue. Besides checking for fuel when it dies, check for voltage to the positive side of the coil with the ignition key switch turned to the on/run position. You should be getting around 9 volts. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Waterdog
Date Posted: April-24-2011 at 12:09pm
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Seams like the coil is getting hot and breaking down. Run it with out the hood til it stops, feel the coil to see if its too hot to hold. If its OK remove the spark arrester, have someone pump the throttle while you look down the carb for a good squrit of fuel. NO tools required so far. If OK check the voltage at the + side of the coil. - My dollar is on the hot coil. But it maybe the #2 rod bearing.(sorry for bein' a ****) ------------- - waterdog - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3896&sort=&pagenum=2&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978" rel="nofollow - 78 Ski Tique |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: April-24-2011 at 12:39pm
The oil slider keeps going out on mine, but it's #3. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Waterdog wrote:Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: April-24-2011 at 1:27pm
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As suggested above, could be several things. I had the exact same situation a few years ago, and per suggestions here, swapped out the coil on the water as soon as it happened. Maybe that is your problem, but it wasnt mine. Just as the mechanic you listened to suggested, engine heat misaligned an old/warn cap. Cools off, ran fine. A new cap and I was good to go. So even tho it could be any one of several things, mine happened to be what your mechanic suggested. I took my boat over to a mechanic friend and he inspected the cap and saw evidence of all kinds of arcing. Just so happens I had already ordered a new cap and it came in the mail that morning. We put it on and no problems since. Worth a try. ------------- _____________ “So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
Posted By: dochockey
Date Posted: April-24-2011 at 1:39pm
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1. One of the clips for my distributor cap have been stripped so i cannot tighten the clip on one side to hold on the cap. I cannot get enough purchase so the clip is "somewhat loose" on one side. Can i buy new clips, or do i just put in a bigger screw (self tapper) to get that clip tight ? or do i need a whole new distributor ?
My money is on this ------------- 1989 Teal Ski Nautique 1967 Mustang Harris Float Sunfish |
Posted By: Manison
Date Posted: April-24-2011 at 2:05pm
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Guys
Thank you very much, at least we now have an idea of what we should look for first. yes, i will try to tighten the clip first and maybe get a new distributor cap. I will also look at the coil when i get in the boat today so i can identify what i have, i am not sure how to identify what coil i have or if i have an electronic ignition, but i have some help from my mechanic team (auto mechanics) who can help me identify the parts that we have. SO, buy no new parts, i do have a volt meter so will give it a test when we cut out as well as looking at fuel flow with the spark arrestor off. In the boat today, a lot of work to do and then possibly in the water this week. Nick |
Posted By: Manison
Date Posted: April-24-2011 at 2:08pm
| The cap that you purchased, does it have to be a special make and model or can i get one from west marine ? |
Posted By: Manison
Date Posted: April-24-2011 at 2:13pm
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The boat just seems to cut out, no real sputtering, we can be racing along at 25 to 30MPH and then dead and we just come to a rest.
Thanks again for the advice. We know we have a gem of a boat, just a little frustrating as we are not boat mechanics to go out and have it cut out and not know even where to look. Next time it cuts out we ahve some where to look. Thanks again |
Posted By: dochockey
Date Posted: April-24-2011 at 2:17pm
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It would help us if you could post some photos. Do you have a CC dealer near you ? the cap needs to be marine. ------------- 1989 Teal Ski Nautique 1967 Mustang Harris Float Sunfish |
Posted By: Manison
Date Posted: April-24-2011 at 2:23pm
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I am not sure i have a CC dealer near me, i can look. I have the service and parts manual for PCM and typically once i have the original part number i can call west marine and they can convert it to what Sierra parts i need or they have Mallory as well i think.
I bet the distributor on there now is proabably non-marine as the previous owner changed everything else to autoparts |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: April-24-2011 at 3:21pm
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Posting some pics will allow us to determine if the parts are marine or not.
The way you describe it, it seems like the problem is coil/ ignition related. If the boat runs perfectly for as long as you mention, then dies, that does sound like the coil is getting hot and either not the proper resistance, or maybe the ballast resistor is not hooked up anymore. Also, the distributor cap needs to be down tight. If the side that has the stripped screw is making that side sit up and not tight like it's supposed to be, then that could be a problem, but the fact that it's running well for a while makes me think that isn't the root of the boat cutting out. You might be able to retap that distributor and use an oversized screw in it. West marine might have the proper cap for it, actually I would think they would as these motors were used in a ton of marine apps. Pretty much because it is a different distributor, an automotive one won't typically work on a marine distributor, not on a ford 351/302 motor at least. The elbow going into your manifold was probably plastic for both sides. My 78 has the originalbrass ones later, but either will work, as long as they are not crack plastic elbows and they are in good shape. I know CC/ PCM switched to brass ones later. ------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-24-2011 at 3:44pm
Kirk, You go to a dealer for parts? You must have plenty of spare cash!!   ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: April-24-2011 at 5:17pm
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Here are some pics that might help you out.
First I guess the easiest way to figure out if you have points or elec. conversion is, does it have one or two wires coming out of the distributor? If it has points it should look like this under your cap. 
Or does it have something like this under the cap. 
Next here are all the parts numbers for cap, coil, rotor and points for your boat. They are "Standard" brand and can be found at most auto parts stores for half of what you would pay at a dealer or West Marine. 
|
Posted By: Manison
Date Posted: April-25-2011 at 2:22am
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I have points according to the picture above. I also have pictures for the fuel pump which may not be marine, the distributor is a prestolite and i have picture of the coil.
If it has a good chance of being the coil i am happy to exchange this before i go out again, along with the distributor cap and convert it to an electronic start if any of these could be a problem. Money is not the issue, so i am happy to change thses parts out as long as we are not running into 4 or 5 hundred dollars. I would start with the coil and for GP the distributor cap here are pics of the fuel pump distributor cap and coil. |
Posted By: Manison
Date Posted: April-25-2011 at 2:32am
| i have found how to add picture but mine are to big. Hold on while i find a way to shrink them |
Posted By: Manison
Date Posted: April-25-2011 at 2:45am
| I cant shrink them, i will retake them tomorrow. |
Posted By: 84SN2001
Date Posted: April-25-2011 at 11:08am
| Swith to HEI with new plug wires and plugs!!! Get rid of the coil and old distributer. I had the same problem, the pick up in the distributer cap was bad so I switched the whole ignition system, the 350 cranks right up every time now with no problems. The only thing you will have to do is weld the counter weights togethor because their is no vacume advance on the marine carb!!! I think I said that right |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: April-25-2011 at 11:26am
Before you start just changing things out let's try to track down why it's happening. You said it was running good before, what changed? First get your clip issue on the cap taken care of either a bigger screw or a small nut and bolt. Then also check your contact's in the cap and on your rotor. I have a feeling that they are going to be pitted from the loose cap causing arcing. After that we can start digging deeper. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-25-2011 at 11:32am
Brian, I'm trying to get a better picture of your HEI conversion. What did you do with welding advance counterweights? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: LaurelLakeSkier
Date Posted: April-25-2011 at 11:42am
It is correct that there will be no vacuum advance on the marine distributor (if it actually a marine unit there won't be a vacuum advance mechanism on the distributor) but the mechanical advance is going to be needed. The weights must be free to move in order to get the timing to advance as rpm increases. From the sounds of the problem, I don't think he needs a new distributor but rather needs to get what looks to be a problem with an overheating coil sorted out. ------------- The world is full of youth—what we need is a fountain of smart! |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: April-25-2011 at 2:32pm
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This tool was mentioned recently in cycleworld. They're pretty cool. They can help diagnose anything with spark ignition. You don't need any tools to put it on, and it can be left in place with the engine running. I've seen them used on the automotive side as well, I don't see why you couldn't use one with a boat.
Put it on and start your boat, and watch the light go on. When your boat goes into it's dead mode, see if it's still lighting up when you crank the engine over. No light, then no spark. Then all you have to do is figure out why you're not getting spark, coil etc.: 
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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-25-2011 at 2:41pm
If that tool is more than a few dollars then I wouldnt bother with it. A timing light can do the same thing, but has other uses (like being able to set your timing, ha). ------------- |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: April-25-2011 at 2:50pm
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Yours is showing the same symptoms as mine did when I was trying to get the elec conversion to work. It ended up overheating the coil.
Since the PO did a lot of mickey mouse things to it. I'm wondering if he bypassed the ballast resistor which would cause your symptoms. At the back of the motor under the plastic cover with the red breaker button. See if you have one of these installed. And check if you have a red wire in and the purple out to the + side of the coil. 
|
Posted By: anthonylizardi
Date Posted: April-25-2011 at 4:49pm
My 87 had the same problem. I change a couple of parts, at the end it was the coil. The coil when it warms up it will open. I could idle for evere. A member suggested the MSD Blaster model 8222. This coil will work in any position. I bought the MSD resistor to be safe. I have that and a Mallory optical/electrical conversion. It has been 3 years and everything is fine. I read somewhere that when the engine is warm you can tap the coil and if it goes off then you find the problem. Your problem is almost exaclty to mine. I checked fuel, pump, ignition, and at the end it was the coil.
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Posted By: Manison
Date Posted: April-26-2011 at 1:51am
| I have the set up you describe above gun-driver with the white balast resistor underneath the red cut off switch with the purple wire going to the coil |
Posted By: Manison
Date Posted: April-26-2011 at 1:55am
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What is the resisitor ???
Is this soimething as well as the coiil ? I have the ballast resistor already in place. I wouild like to bring the MSD blaster model 8222 with me next time i go out if we think this could be the problem. If i need a resistor as wekll then let me know. For $50 i want it with me next time i go out as a possible fix nick |
Posted By: 84SN2001
Date Posted: April-26-2011 at 11:38am
| Pete, The HEI is an automotive ACCEL distributer. As we all know that the engine is reverse rotation so the gears on the automotive dis were backwards as automotive engines are regular rotation, luckly the dis gear from the Malory was an exact fit on to the ACCEL dis. The guy that helped me do the work, told me that all the marine dis that he's ever seen never had an advance with centrifical weights-IE mercruiser , so he just tac welded them togethor to make the timing advance obsalete. long story short we just changed the gear on the dis and tac welded the centrifical weights togethor and the thing fires a spark so strong you could power a house!! ;) "not really" Hopefully all that made sence and sorry for any incorrect spelling as I am in the Infantry all we know how to do is pull the triger and kill the enemy!!! Will be home on leave in three weeks from S. Korea so show you pics in detail of the Beautiful all orginal '84 SN 2001 |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-26-2011 at 1:19pm
I have a feeling Pete was baiting you with his question.
What your mechanic told you is incorrect on many different levels. Locking the timing in will likely either cause the boat to start/idle poorly or run poorly up top- or possibly both. Marine distributors still use the mechanical advance (weights and springs) mechanism, what they dont have is a vaccuum advance, since boat engines are always under load. Also, an automotive distributor is a major safety hazard on a boat (and a violation of USCG regulations), as it is not spark arrested like a marine unit. Just a few gas fumes in the bilge and you have a recipe for disaster. I would strongly consider ditching the HEI you have on there now, in the name of safety. Performance Distributors sells a marine HEI unit if you want to stick with that type of ignition system. ------------- |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-26-2011 at 2:58pm
Tim, I don't understand what you're implying? 
Brian, To a certain extent, Tim is correct but I really was confused about your mechanic welding the weights together. Every engine needs a means of advancing the sparks as RPM's increase. I'm still confused but it must be a misinterpretation from your mechanic. Tim is absolutely correct that not running a marine rated component is unsafe. Take a look at getting it swapped out. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: anthonylizardi
Date Posted: April-26-2011 at 8:26pm
When I did mine, to be safe, I used the MSD recommended ballast resistor. If you open the breaker cover at the back of the engine is the ceramic looking block. Is only a few dolars. Staight forward. Replace both and enjoy. Because of the extra juice in the Blaster I opened the spark plugs a +.10 and I am very pleased. The wires were upgraded to 8mm. As I mentioned I have a Mallory optical ignition, it was not necessary and agree that points can be more reliable. Overall, I am pleased with the end result. Starts great when cold and it has decent acceleration. |
Posted By: Manison
Date Posted: April-26-2011 at 8:40pm
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Thanks for the advice.
I will purchase the MSD 822 epoxy and ballast resistor and exchange them before i go out next, all we want to do is top keep the boat running, it became such a pain last year to spend 4 hours out of your day to be dissapointed every time we got in the boat and have to be towed home. I will let you know how we get on. |
Posted By: anthonylizardi
Date Posted: April-26-2011 at 8:49pm
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Nick,
Read the MSD 8222 Blaster instructions.It says that when using the coil with points install a 0.8 Ohm resistor. If I remember correct the one in the boat was a 1k Ohm. Get the MSD resistor, PN 8214, from any auto part that sells MSD. Here is an excerpt from the instruction: WARNING: When using the Blaster Coil with a points or stock style distributor, a 0.8 Ohm ballast resistor must be installed in-line of the positive wire. Failure to use a ballast resistor could result in personal injury or component failure. |
Posted By: 84SN2001
Date Posted: April-26-2011 at 9:05pm
| HOOOAH Thanks, I will switch out the dis when I get home for leave and put the correct marine one on so we dont blow the engine cover off and kill some one. I can still asure you that the centrifical weights are spot welded togethor. When I change out the unit which still runs awsome but not safe, I will take a few pics and post them in about three weeks for you mechanic guys that are confused on how it does not work! Hell I might be confused |
Posted By: 84SN2001
Date Posted: April-26-2011 at 9:30pm
| One more thing.... I've heard of people not turning on the blower before cranking the engine and then it blows up because of all the fumes. Im all about safety and will change the dis, BUTTTTTT every time we put the boat in the water we turn on the blower and lift the engine cover so that every thing air's out and also to prime that rare CHEVY pleasure craft marine 350. I say rare because CC didnt put that many 350 in their boats? Why? And dont say that ford is better!! Was it an option or did pleasure craft just run out of 351's so they started to put 350??? |
Posted By: horkn
Date Posted: April-26-2011 at 10:34pm
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As to why PCM/ CC used 350's in some models as an option back then, I couldn't tell you. Well, other than that the fords ARE better;) The SBC's are definitely less popular in these years, and most years up until the early 2000's, and of course 2003 when there were no more 351w powered CC's.
------------- 78 martinique- refloored, reinforced, stringers re glassed, re engineered interior GT40P heads Edelbrock Performer intake acme 4 blade http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/horkn/fish/nautique.jpg |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-27-2011 at 12:16am
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PCM's credit dried up with Ford? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Nautique2001
Date Posted: April-27-2011 at 12:38am
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Sounds like the same issue I have every year. The fuel screen on the inlet of the carburetor gets all blocked up with crap that's sucked up from the fuel tank. I have to remove and clean the screen every year. I suffer the same symptoms as you described. Good luck and keep us posted. Ken ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1052&sort=&pagenum=4&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: April-27-2011 at 9:57am
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I still have a scar on my palm from one of those damn blaster coils, I saw the light that day...but it sent me back, my heart hurt for 2 days ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |