NEED CARB HELP!!
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22085
Printed Date: December-21-2024 at 10:18pm
Topic: NEED CARB HELP!!
Posted By: jcow0714
Subject: NEED CARB HELP!!
Date Posted: June-13-2011 at 4:57pm
I recently replaced the carburetor on my 82 2001 with a rebuilt holley from florida inboards. the engine starts up and idles fine but bogs hard when you give it any gas(ON WATER). upon inspection i noticed that the back two barrels were not opening at all. that is controled by the smaller bracket and pin system (circled in red in pic). the throttle does not go far enough to open it at all. but when we were testing it i opening it by hand and it seemed to help a lot. I reversed the lever that connects the front and back barrels (green in the pic) and it seemed to work a lot better but fell on its face and bogged out around 2000 rpm. in the picture my does anyone have any ideas what my problem could be?
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Replies:
Posted By: Jllogan
Date Posted: June-13-2011 at 5:11pm
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did you try adjusting the air mixture screws? Especially on the secondary bowl? does it always fall at that RPM or only on faster acceleration? You sure your distributor/points are at 100%? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5792&sort=&pagenum=1" rel="nofollow - 1986 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: jcow0714
Date Posted: June-13-2011 at 5:17pm
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im new to tuning marine carbs. all i have ever done are atv carbs before this and a monkey could do that. are the air mixture screws the two copper looking screw?(one on each side?) if so, yes i tried adjusting those but nothing seemed to help. And im not sure where the secondary bowl is. when i reversed the linkage, to reverse of the pic, it would do well unless you tried to accelerate quickly. if you went slow on it, you could eventually get it to plane and get up to full throttle.
and no i have not checked my dist this year. im also not sure on how to do that. I just wish i had a legitimate shop around me to do some tuning for cheap. because it will need to be on the water to be tuned. |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: June-13-2011 at 7:55pm
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First off, the back to barrels are vacuum operated. In other words, you're not going to get them to open no matter how far you push the throttle. Essentially the engine "sucks them open" when the boat gets too approx 34-38mph. This a gross over-simplification, but on a 4160, they are not mechanical. Holley "double pumpers" used in hot rodding have mechanical secondaries, but you don't want that on a boat.
I think the linkage you circled actually has something to do with the fast idle cam. Not totally sure on that, but it's definitely not meant to open the secondaries. Have you checked your accelerator pump? With the engine off, the cover opened, and the spark arrestor off, look down the primary holes. Have a friend advance the throttle from neutral to full quickly. You should see a good shot of gas going down both barrels. Make sure that getting the shot of fuel AND that the shot of fuel is starting the very instant that those throttle blades start to open. If there's a delay, you may need to adjust your accelerator pump linkage. |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: June-13-2011 at 9:12pm
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the secondaries on this carb are vacuum actuated, that means they open when the engine needs it, so PUT IT BACK AS IT CAME OUT THE BOX
What you need to look for it fine tune it, that means air mixture screws, ralenti screw and maybe accelerator pump lever gap. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: June-13-2011 at 11:03pm
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man the only thing i can add is on one situation the check ball on the front bowl of the accelerator pump came out on me and would not pump gas, the boat started and ran fine until acceleration in which i had to feather the hell out of it to get it up to 4000 rpms, it got there but it took a while..obviously i popped the arrestor and noticed it was not pumping for that initial burst which you can see down the throat of the carb.
to understand these carbs a little better and their operation, and please correct me anyone if i dillute the truth a bit, but this is to me my understanding, anytime you stroke the throttle at the helm you pump an initial squirt of gas from the accelerator pump down the throat for satrt up. the boat starts and at an idle position the throttle plates are open a touch creating whats called the venturi effect, venturi defined in my terms would be the same as a tornado going by your house and sucking your ass out, this is how fuel is pulled from the float bowl into the throat down into the fire pit (combustion chamber) the more you push the throttle the more the throttle plate opens and the more the gas it pulls. the secondaries too are controlled by vacuum on these 4160's, in which a small port is drilled into the same front barrels on the choke side of the carb (front barrels). at a certain designated point the secondary diaphram which controls the 2 back barrels senses the vacuum flying thru the front barrels and starts to open the second (back set) of throttle plates thus also creating a venturi effect on the back barrels and will start to also pull gas down the throat. merely the only time the accelerator pump squirts fuel is when you manually stroke the gas lever (shift) and its purpose is to give the engine the initial squirt of fuel on start up and a burst of fuel when you accelerate ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: June-13-2011 at 11:48pm
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To add to Eric post, the Holleys have 3 fuel circuits, idle circuit for slow operation, transition circuit and main circuit for open throttle operation. Each circuit feed the engine with a certain volume of fuel for it's operation.
When the carbs are out of tune or dirty, it starts sucking gas from where it's not supposed to and different running conditions arise. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: jcow0714
Date Posted: June-14-2011 at 4:32pm
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well i changed everything back to original and found my instructions for tuning. after finding this and a friend who knows carbs (automotive but still better than me), i took my boat out on the water. I didnt even think about it but i forgot my registration was up this year!
I took the boat out and got it on the water. when i was floating around trying to get this things right, with no luck, a park ranger comes out of nowhere and decides he wants to talk. about an hour later and a safety check i got slapped with 9 vilations. god im an idiot. before i took it to the shop i took EVERYTHING out of it and forgot to put it all back in. paddle, fire extinguisher, anchor, throwable floatation, and to make things worse my blower fuse burned out! lets just say im an absolute idiot. and now i have to pay for my mistakes |
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: June-14-2011 at 5:05pm
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Boomer!!!....I guess sometimes the dash stickers are usefull...
Check all gear before leaving the dock, fire extiguisher, etc, etc...LOL ------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: June-14-2011 at 5:13pm
Kap never leaves shore without a fire extinguisher, safety oar, working horn and a life vest for himself and each of the 7-10 hotties he'll have on-board 
Yeah, those Wardens/Rangers/Marine Patrol seem like they're out for blood at times. I one time felt bad for an Master Craft owner: They got busted for pulling a skier (12 year old skier at that) too close to shore. Marine Patrol stopped them and of course they dropped their skier. Well, the MP boat and the MC were getting carried down wind and the poor kid couldn't swim fast enough to catch up with his ski boat. The driver, a grandma I think, was so frazzled she didn't know what to do and the jerk MP wouldn't help at all. I wound up picking up the skier with my boat (we were 2 minutes away from starting a run ourselves) and bringing him over. They're really not cool at times. Stay with it though and keep us posted on how the carb adjustments work out. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-14-2011 at 5:51pm
This includes police!! Seems they have a "mind set" all their own. There's a comment I made way back in some thread about the last problem I had. It was actually my daughter being pulled over by our local water patrol. It turned out due to my not going to the eye doctor on time, I had used a "M" instead of a "N" when I put the registration numbers/letters on it!!! Actually, I'm sure he couldn't see that from a distance so I'm sure he just wanted to pull over a pretty young girl!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Bri892001 wrote:Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: June-14-2011 at 5:55pm
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Something like that occured to us this summer...ha..we where at the ski area in a friends boat, his 12 yo was wakeboarding..we passed by a marine patrol..and they made up signs to stop...routine check!!! we picked up the kid and headed to the boat...nothing wrong, all papers and equipment was fine, of course!!...my friend wanted to kick their a$$...
------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: Jllogan
Date Posted: June-14-2011 at 6:19pm
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as far as tuning holley actually has quite a bit of info available. Or really anyone familiar with a carb would be able to help you. They adjust the same as far as i know. There are two teeeny standard screws on the side of the front and back bowl. How I was taught to adjust them was to screw them all the way in, back them out a turn and a half then adjust them 1/2 a turn at a time. The accelerator pump is in the front of primary bowl on the bottom, its the thing with the green showing. When this carburetor was rebuilt, I wonder how much of it. Just new seals gaskets? Really any decent mechanic should be able to tune a carburetor marine or not. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5792&sort=&pagenum=1" rel="nofollow - 1986 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: Fl Inboards
Date Posted: June-14-2011 at 7:46pm
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Hey wait a min! I did not sell you a rebuilt Carb I sold you a core carb ($25) and a rebuild kit! You did the re-building! I intentially do not re-build for customers nor sell re-built carbs. Please Rephrase your post to correctly represent the transaction. Thank You! Jody Seal Florida Inboards Inc. ------------- Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise. 1993 Shamrock "fat" 20. 2008 Nautique 196 5.0 |
Posted By: jcow0714
Date Posted: June-14-2011 at 8:01pm
| Sorry Jody mis-phrased. It will be changed. You sold me the core and kit and I had it rebuilt. Didn't mean for it to be a prob. |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: June-15-2011 at 2:52am
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that brings a whole new light to this issue...
Who did the rebuild then? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: jcow0714
Date Posted: June-17-2011 at 1:32am
| i did |
Posted By: Luchog
Date Posted: June-17-2011 at 2:39am
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Well, needless to say something went wrong... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2095" rel="nofollow - 1980 Ski Nautique Commander 351W |
Posted By: skicat2001
Date Posted: June-17-2011 at 4:27pm
This guy was scaring me.. I thought all Holleys are set perfectly out of the box. I just slapped a new one on mine, get to try it out tomorrow afternoon. This new Holley 4160 better run perfect...   ------------- 1985 CC 2001-SOLD Lee Michael Johnson |
Posted By: Jllogan
Date Posted: June-17-2011 at 4:37pm
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If you keep having issues you may want to get a friend who knows about holley carbs to help or send it somewhere to be rebuilt. You could take it apart and try to clean it again. If one little itty bitty piece of anything gets in those vacuum lines you will have issues. I ruled out rebuild problems because I thought it had been professionally done. It may be worth your time and money to get another kit and have someone with experience to redo it. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5792&sort=&pagenum=1" rel="nofollow - 1986 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: jcow0714
Date Posted: June-17-2011 at 7:36pm
| ya that will most likely be the case. il have someone do it again. this is why i never do anything myself. it always ends up costing me more in the long run. should have had it professionally done in the first place. |
Posted By: Jllogan
Date Posted: June-17-2011 at 7:44pm
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eh, chalk it up to a learning experience. You are still ahead of a new one probably. You could try to rebuild again but I think it would good if you could do it with someone. If 50 or so bucks on a rebuild kit is the only money you waste you are ahead of the game. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5792&sort=&pagenum=1" rel="nofollow - 1986 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: quik225
Date Posted: June-17-2011 at 7:49pm
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Did you make sure you matched the gaskets up? Most rebuild kits come with extra/unused gasket so the will work on most 4150/4160 Holleys.
The linkage on the side that you reveresed is to close the secondaries, not open them. Bogging is usually from lack of fuel, not too much. It's hard to diagnose over the net but it sounds like the accelerator pump is not working properly. You should see 2 strong jets of gas from the 'squirter' nozzle when you work the throttle. Possible causes for no or weak pump shot; -ruptured pump diaphram -pump spring missing -fuel bowl check ball missing -pump lever linkage missadjusted -check needle under squirt nozzle is stuck blocking fuel -fuel passages to squirt nozzle plugged up -wrong or backwards metering block gasket Tip-When tightening the screw for the squirt nozzle, do not over do it. Look at the threads, half are gone to allow fuel to get by the screw. It doesn't take much to strip them out. There are 5 fuel circuits on a 4150/4160. Circuits and the order they come in; idle, transfer, accelerator, main jet, power valve. |
Posted By: padgetap
Date Posted: June-17-2011 at 8:35pm
| We thought about that (jcow is a friend of mine, I was on said boat during problem) but the main problem with that line of logic is that when we artificially opened the vacuum secondaries the boat ran fine until it got into the upper RPM range, where they should have started opening naturally. Unless there's some other reason this worked, I wouldn't naturally think that too little fuel was the problem. |
Posted By: jcow0714
Date Posted: June-17-2011 at 8:36pm
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Quik, great information, i just wish i knew what all of that meant. yes i only replaced the gaskets that matched the new ones. I should not have to alter any of the gaskets should I? because i didnt do anything like that.
I dont know anyone good with carbs, so i called local shops and looks like its going to be a couple hundred plus another rebuild kit. should have just bought new to begin with. now il be 300$ deep on a questionable carb. Heres where im confused... it would run like complete crap and bog out when the carb is operating by itself, but run great when i opened the secondary bowls by hand while a buddy operates the throttle. why would that be? could it be as easy as plugs and wires? because i pulled 2 plugs and they are baddddddd. or do you think i should chalk it up as a loss and get another rebuild kit? ANYONE ON THE FORUM WANT TO REBUILD THIS CARB FOR ME FOR SOME CASH? |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: June-17-2011 at 9:55pm
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gosh lots of question in there...
1) No. 2) remember your idea of 'running great' may not be like ours, and even a broken clock is correct twice a day. 3) no, the plugs look bad because of the carb, not the other way around 4) no, chalk it up for a loss and just get a new carb. You wouldn't identify something subtle originally wrong with that carb, just put it back together possibly as it was recieved but how would you identify 'correct'? Play with that one later, summer is too short. 5) sorry but fawk no. I'd rather start with a carb that has a recent history of working. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-17-2011 at 11:05pm
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John,
Understanding Tom's comments above and having a good idea of his personality/stance/capabilities though the on site years, I agree and feel you need to get off the cheap and pay!! He's Correct!!! Being honest here, why would someone take on a job of trying to rebuild a hacked up old carb? "Bite the bullet"  I've reviewed the thread and it sounds like it's the time to do it - get a decent rebuild or new. Sorry but it's ether that or get HELP! This has been going on long enough - sorry again.------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: jcow0714
Date Posted: June-17-2011 at 11:35pm
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I appreciate the brutal honesty ha. It's true and I wish I would have realized this earlier. No longer will I try to go the cheap way. Spend a couple extra bucks and go big.
Last question.. The place on the top of the carb where you hook up the PCV line... Would that effect anything if it's not hooked up? Cuz mine wasn't, it was blocked off |
Posted By: inglesideshawn
Date Posted: June-18-2011 at 5:23am
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just my 2 cents, but just spend the money and get the new carb..my 89 runs and starts perfect with a out of the box,and slight adjusted carb.It was money best spent... after rebuilding 3 times it just never ran the way it was ment to,either the choke,metering blocks or corosion ruined half a summer... 10 minutes to put a new one on and zero problems...knock on wood... save the shame of being towed in..and just my 2 cents from not the best carb tuner... ------------- 1989 nautique |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: June-18-2011 at 11:04am
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Exactly, sorry for my blindness, although helping each other is the mission here ,just trying to convey its a lot to ask to be responsible for the operation of a carbs with a questionable history already reworked by a beginner, pardon.
I think you need to eliminate one variable on that engine, and the carb is a fabulous one to invest into. Then if you have time, build your skills, with our help to get the old carb working; then at least you have a standard performance to aim for. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: jcow0714
Date Posted: June-24-2011 at 1:39am
| So after taking the carb to a friends dad who knows his stuff, I finally have my Nautique running great. The problem ended up being a missing pin in the choke linkage that would not allow it to fully open. So that along with new plugs and wires and she is finally running right for the first time since I have owned it. I thank all of you guys for the help and ideas. It really helped me out through this process. Now it's time to live on the lake. |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: June-24-2011 at 10:12am
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i found thru lifes quests all kinds of people rebuilding this rebuilding that, i go thru this 10 times a year, "i just rebuilt it" not to often can you go into something that you know absolutely nothing about and get it right the first time. yes there is a starting point but there is also a learning curve.
taking something apart and installing new parts is not rebuilding, you first must know how it works and why it failed, and so is true on anything ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |