Starter Explodes
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2390
Printed Date: November-23-2024 at 3:59am
Topic: Starter Explodes
Posted By: tleed
Subject: Starter Explodes
Date Posted: September-04-2005 at 2:02am
I am NOT making this up!:
I got the impeller issue straightened out. A couple of weeks ago I learned that the tranny pump can be installed 180 degrees out of whack. Today I learned that the impeller pump can be installed backwards, too. Didn't realize that. It's reversible, too, depending on the rotation of the engine. And I'm sure last time I put it in the water it was backwards. No wonder it didn't prime and pump.
So I put in new impellers and put the boat in the water today. No problem priming and pumping cooling water.
But the starter gear exploded. It made a funny sound when it started, but went ahead and started. Out in the middle of the lake the carb linkage was hanging a little and keeping the revs up, so I pulled it back. It slowed enough it died. That's when I learned the starter gear exploded, and it wasn't going to start. The cover on the bellhousing over the timing mark was blown off, and I can't find it, and two teeth of the gear were in the back seat. Got towed in.
Is this the same starter as a car starter, or does this thing runs backwards, too?
Thomas
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Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: September-04-2005 at 3:12am
DUMB ASS,
DOES YOUR BOAT LOOK LIKE A CAR?
HOW MANY POST ARE YOU GOING TO MAKE FOR THE SAME STUPIDITY?
IS THE CARB FIXED? OR IS THAT WHAT SCREWED UP THE STARTER??????????
IDIOT
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Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: September-04-2005 at 3:05pm
Crude. but accurate...
Why go out in a boat that made a strange noise when started? Any prudent captain would at least shut down, inspect and restart at the dock before heading out.
Some people just shouldn't own boats. or planes.
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole
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Posted By: tleed
Date Posted: September-04-2005 at 5:11pm
I posted first under boat maintenance and then realized this post is more appropriate here.
Name-calling is distracting, but I'm trying to work around it.
The carb is rebuilt and working fine. New fuel filter went in this week, too. There must be some reason why 3000 rpm is the max. I'm starting to wonder if the cam/valve train is/are worn out. Just not developing the hp & rpm I think it should have.
Funny thing about the starter, too. The odd clunk was with the first couple clicks of the key. I just figured the starter wasn't engaging exactly right. Or I figured it might've dropped a valve. When it did engage and start, it sounded fine. No dropped valve. Seems exceedingly strange because part of the starter gear was probably already gone by that time. So it really shouldn't have started at all. Once it started and ran good with no clicks or clunks, I figured it was fine.
The point of the trip was a test run to see if the impellers were pumping and the tranny would cool. Can't test if you don't run. The impellers worked great, but the newly-rebuilt tranny was still overheating. Still an issue there. Couldn't discover that at the dock because it takes time and load for the heat to develop. There is method and thought behind my madness. Just clutters up the post to spell it all out.
The starter had been rock-solid reliable. I haven't had this boat very long, and have only had it in the water about a month. Evidently it has lots of issues I'm working through very patiently.
Still wondering if the starter can interchange with a 318 Chrysler auto starter. That's the info I'm fishing for.
Thomas
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Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: September-04-2005 at 5:15pm
If its a top-mount, unlikely. A local rebuilder is your best option, shame to replace a whole starter for just the bendix.
Beware running while diagnosing you top-end problem, any run-lean condition can frag a piston or valve.
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: September-06-2005 at 5:09pm
The ring gear of the flywheel may also be damaged. If so, you'd need to replace the flywheel. Engine may not need to come out for that, but the transmission, starter and bell housing have to come off... I believe you can use an automotive flywheel (the vibration damper connecting the flywheel to the transmission input shaft would likely be PCM/marine specific, though).
Live & learn, eh?
If you operate the engine at low power settings, e.g. at or below 60% power, I believe that a lean condition will not do any harm. Not so at high/WOT power settings.
I'm basing this on knowledge of piston aircraft engines - below about 65% power, you can run the engine at any mixture from slobbering rich, to so lean that the engine is about to stop, without harming the engine (due to temperature or pressure).
Good luck.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: September-06-2005 at 5:20pm
Well, I just read the other thread over in "Boat Maintenance" and it looks like you already removed the bell housing, and your vibration damper may be on the other end...
But hopefully there was no damage to your ring gear.
Again, good luck.
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Posted By: tleed
Date Posted: September-06-2005 at 8:12pm
(What idiot would post the same message in 2 places?)
Ring gear is a little chewed on, but I'm sure still functional. Not really sure how bad is too bad. So I guess I'll add that to the list of parts to accumulate for what is shaping up as a winter project.
I'm starting to wonder about replacing the engine. Now where can I find a good 360…?
Thomas
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Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: September-06-2005 at 9:18pm
You mean a good reverse rotation 360? That adds a lot to the complexity of the situation. Keep the 318 - bore it 30 over, throw in good pistons, a good carb, a good intake manifold, add a little lift to your cam, set your compression as close to 9:1 as possible (so you can run pump gas), a solid-state ignition conversion, and tape your cap to your head 'cause the wind passing over your windshield is gonna try to blow it away. (If 340 heads will bolt to a 318, and they might, go for a set of 1969-1970 340 heads to let that baby breath. The heads are not marine specific and 340 heads with their nice large valves should be everywhere.)
Here is a nice link to a Mopar site. Keep in mind that seals MAY be rotation specific as are many other parts. I think you are safe with automobile crankshaft, rods, pistons, block, heads and valves, and lifters. The cam and distributor will be rotation specific. The alternator should be a marine alternator but I don;t think the rotation matters. The starter of course is rotation specific as well as marine duty specific. The water circulating pump may be rotation specific except there are bi-directional pumps available (you can spin them either way).
http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/poly318_1.html - Check this out
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Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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Posted By: stang72
Date Posted: September-06-2005 at 10:20pm
Jim In Houston (A little off the subject...)Ebay auction alert!351 ford(gt-40 heads)from an insurance claim...from a 99 Nautique...It's located in Houston.Thought you might want to watch that one.Plug in"pleasure craft marine engine " or "Nuatique" and you will find it!
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stang
Face plants are not that funny when it's you face!
http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/images/3720/photo1.jpg" rel="nofollow - The Super Air
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Posted By: tleed
Date Posted: September-07-2005 at 1:55am
Jim, I knew you were a good man. Have I told you I lived in Friendswood for a while? And League City?
I've been to the '62-'65 Mopar site many times because I have a '64 Dodge Custom 880 convertible and a '64 300K. But I haven't looked very hard at small block info.
In all the fun I've discovered a cracked head and that nice, creamy oil texture that tells you that you have water in the oil, so this motor will be my winter project. I suspected the cam was worn out anyway, so this just gives me an excuse to go ahead and tear it down.
So it's to the drawing board for parts and I'm open to all suggestions. I know I'm in for new heads. Between Mopar buddies, I'm sure I can score any head the factory produced. I ported and polished heads for a Mopar 400 BB last winter, so I'm sure I can do that for this one. I'm sure I put upwards of 100 hours into those heads. One fellow I talked to today told me not to put 360 heads on my 318—a common hot-rodding technique to get bigger valves—because that would slow down the velocity and kill the torque. His point was that marine motors are more like truck motors—they're always under load and need to be built for torque, not high rpm or high hp. But I think he also suggested looking into the 302 casting heads (85-91 roller cam 318 with heart-shaped swirl chamber).
He also suggested stainless valves, and, of course, I will need to wind up with hardened seats.
At any rate, I'm open to all info at the moment as far as components go.
Thomas
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Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: September-07-2005 at 9:35am
Don't be thwarted by him, Bigger valves will almost always be advantagous, and will not 'kill' torque, you will still have plenty. Just don't go Big valves with big-cam.
Just look at the ford winsdor to see how it goes flat above 4Krpm, due to small ports and small valves.
Neighbor has a '70 Century MkII with a 340 and its no slouch.
Sounds like you're on your way.
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"There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing."
River Rat to Mole
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Posted By: tleed
Date Posted: September-07-2005 at 9:00pm
351 Fords often wind up in Crown Vics. Big, heavy cars that like torquey motors. That makes the point, doesn't it?
At any rate, I'm leaning toward 302 heads on my 318 block with upsized valves. That should raise the compression and I can port and polish to my heart's content. But the jury's still out. Have to see what kind of shape the block's in once I tear it down. That will probably seal the deal.
Thomas
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Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: September-08-2005 at 4:50pm
Tleed. Good to hear you were a neighbor. I lived on Idaho street in League City and officed near Hwy3 and main for a year.
I do not understand the "302" heads. Am I missing something here? Chrysler made a 302? News to me but I am always stumbling across things that are news to me. I suggested the 340 heads because I think the 360s had a lower compression. The 340s had around 10:1 as I recall and with the right pistons you may be able to drop that to around 9:1 (and use cheaper gas.)
Your boating objective determines your design criteria. Building an engine for a boat does require different thinking. I do not do very much towing and I just like to cruise the river (and not be left behind by the kid in daddy's shiney new boat) so I aimed for max torque in the 4000 to 5000RPM range (so I can spin a heavy pitched prop at that speed) - so far this has not worked yet out :(. ** Low end is only important to me in that I have to pass through it.
It seems to me that what you want to avoid is minimum horsepower capability at the speed you intend on driving. Torque, speed, and prop all have to be coordinated - it's still new to me but very much fun... if you are moving a lot of weight real fast you will be producing a lot of horsepower but to get there you have to produce torque.
Also noteworthy, I think, is that with a car there is a direct relationship between engine horsepower and speed. This is not true with a boat. The horsepower required to spin your prop increases at an exponential rate with an increase in RPMs. The result is it takes a lot of HP just to turn your prop a little faster. And to make things worse, the speed of the water pushed by your prop (providing thrust)increases at a much lower rate than does the HP required to push it. The bottom line is it costs a lot of money to go fast in a boat - especially if your boat is heavy and has a poor hull design (or is full of water-logged foam like mine).
Man, I'm rambling - I must be avoiding work right now.... later all.
** I think I need an adjustable pitch prop. Anybody got one?
(Note: If anyone noticed there seems to be a contridiction in my thinking above. I am still struggling with some the concepts.)
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Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang
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Posted By: tleed
Date Posted: September-08-2005 at 10:27pm
Jim:
It's sad that fate separated us. We would've wasted a lot of time together.
"302" is the last 3 digits of the multi-digit (seven?) casting number. So they're called the 302 heads. Has nothing to do with displacement. They came on garden-variety 318's in the late '80's. They're 9.x compression factory and have fancy swirl-port combustion chambers. They have smallish valves, but with time spent porting & polishing & enlarged valves, they can flow very well. They're dirt cheap to acquire, too. Witness my purchase price.
Hotrod magazine has a 400 hp 318 recipe using these heads. Look here: http://www.hotrod.com/howto/113_0304_junk/index.html.
Now, what modifications would be appropriate to tailor that recipe for a boat?
Thomas
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