Trany, starter or neutral switch???
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2460
Printed Date: November-23-2024 at 7:01am
Topic: Trany, starter or neutral switch???
Posted By: jimbo
Subject: Trany, starter or neutral switch???
Date Posted: September-17-2005 at 11:00pm
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I rebuilt the transmission in the '84 Nautique. When I turned the key, nothing happened. I used a screwdriver to short the sylonoid and it started right up. I replaced the ignition switch and the sylonoid and it didn't help. The starter is new (I replaced the old one when I did the transmission).
Anyway, for the past couple of days I've been starting it with a screwdriver and it's been running fine. I took the wife skiing and then were cruising at about 1000 rmp and a noise started coming from the engine compartment. It sounded like a bearing was grinding. Looking back I guess it could have been the sylonoid clicking. (Oil presasure and temperature were fine.) I turned around and started heading home. It died but the rpms were bouncing all over the place. Then everything went dead (blower, bilge, lights). It sparked when I disconnected the the battery. I reconnected the battery but it wouldn't start, even with the screw driver. When I used the screwdriver, everything went dead again. Can running it with a bad neutral safety switch do this? Is there a problem with the starter? Or, worse, did the bearning in the trany or the main bearing in the engine crap out. Any suggestions on were to start first. I'm guessing I'll order the neutral switch and replace the sylonoid and see what happens. Thanks |
Replies:
Posted By: JEFF KOSTIS
Date Posted: September-18-2005 at 12:12am
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Well, first thing is the second time starting it with a screwdriver and everything went dead means that the accessories were working until you bridged it with the screwdriver. If this is true, then you have connection issues somewhere in the main batt cables. And the NSS will not have any affect on what happened, but possibly the cause of the original prolem. ------------- MUSTANG COUNTRY http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1074 - 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1093 - 1976 Mustang 17 |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: September-18-2005 at 4:26am
| Ok, I just tried connecting the starter directly to the battery via jumper cables. The cables started heating up but the starter didn't engage. I'm thinking the remanufactured starter has a problem. I'm going to pull the starter and try it on the bench. I'll order a new neutral switch to rule it out. Any other suggestions? |
Posted By: JEFF KOSTIS
Date Posted: September-20-2005 at 1:23am
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Yes, your starter does some like it has issues and drawing way too much current. You may want to replace the solenoid where the starter might of damaged the contacts drawing that much current. ------------- MUSTANG COUNTRY http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1074 - 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1093 - 1976 Mustang 17 |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: September-20-2005 at 1:39am
| I talked to the folks at skidim today. They agreed that it sounded like the starter was bad. They're sending another one. I plan on replacing the relay as well. The old saying new doesn't equal good is true. Thanks. |
Posted By: JEFF KOSTIS
Date Posted: September-20-2005 at 1:49am
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Even though I dont believe in it, I often think of the old saying, "if it aint broke, dont fix it!) ------------- MUSTANG COUNTRY http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1074 - 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1093 - 1976 Mustang 17 |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: September-20-2005 at 1:44pm
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The truth is "it is hard to fix something that ain't broke". You can work on it for months with no results. ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: October-16-2005 at 9:09pm
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Still having issues...
I installed the new starter and a new relay for good measure. Turned the key and nothing. Bypassed the neutral switch, still nothing. Tried bypassing the solenoid with a screw driver. Got a tiny spark the first time but that was it. Measured the voltage at the relay to ground...12V. Connected the hot side of the relay directly to the starter post via jumper cables, nothing. Removed the relay-to-starter cable and tried the same thing, still nothing. Moreover, I measured the voltage from the hot leg of the relay to ground with the jumper going to the starter and I got a crazy reading (-0.04 on a digital meter...who knows what that means). The voltage from the hot leg of the relay to the starter post (without the jumper) was 12V. The only thing I can think of is the starter post is grounding out somewhere inside the starter. But, the jumper cable didn't heat up so I don't think there is much, if any current going to ground. I'm having a hard time believing this starter is bad as well. I'm stumped. Two bolts holding the starter to the bellhousing, a cable from the relay to the starter; is there anything I'm missing? I'm getting tired of changing out starters (it's a real pain!). Any suggestions? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: October-16-2005 at 9:54pm
Seems as thought there is a connection problem somewhere from the batt to the engine on either the neg or pos side. The thing that thats saying that is you are getting no voltage with the jumper cables hooked up to the starter. A simple test is - do your accessories run? Turn on the lights and hit the key and see if the lights go out. If so, its probably a batt cable/connection. If it stays bright, then jump the solenoid like you did previous post bypassing the solenoid and see what happens to the lights. If they go out when you jump it, then again theres a connection problem. A scientific approach is to hook your jumper on the solenoid to the starter where you got the 0 volt reading in the last post, and take the voltmeter and go from the case of the starter(gnd) to the pos post on the starter. If you get 0v then do this. Take the voltmeter and go from the starter case (gnd) to the neg battery post (the post itself, not the terminal) and see what you get. Then do the same from the positive stud of the starter to the pos battery post(the post itself, not the terminal) and see what you get. If you get 12v on one, then that line with the 12v reading you just measured has a connection problem somewhere. Good luck! 
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Posted By: David F
Date Posted: October-17-2005 at 10:13am
| ...could it be your battery? Never overlook the obvious. A battery with a shorted cell can show 12V, but be unable to deliver any amperage to start the engine. |
Posted By: jameski
Date Posted: October-17-2005 at 11:10am
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jimbo, a slightly corroded (or slightly loose) battery terminal can cause those exact symptoms. You can measure 12 volts, your guages and lights might even work, but when you try to pull enough amps to crank your starter, you get nothing. Remove your terminals, clean them with a wire brush, grease them, and tighten them down. ...Same thing on the other ends of the battery cables.
I hope it helps! ------------- current boat http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1977 - 94 Sport Nautique previous boat http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=601 - 78 Martinique |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: October-18-2005 at 9:08am
| Damn, the battery, I bet ya'll are right. I didn't think about that. I bet the battery shorted out when the starter shorted out. The battery is only three months old, so I didn't think about it. I replaced the cables and greased them last year and they are still in good shape. I pulled the battery and will have the people test it today. Thanks for everybody's help. |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: October-18-2005 at 2:13pm
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Well the folks at Wally World said the battery was fine. I'll swap it with the one in my truck to be sure. Jumper cables directs from battery to starter (including ground and see what happens...
Any other suggests? What's that 50 Amp circuit breaker mounted toward the back of the engine for? I've directly bypassed it so it can't be the main problem. |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: October-18-2005 at 5:14pm
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Are you using a deep cycle battery? Is your battery rated at 650 CCA or better? If it is a deep cycle put it in your bass boat, if it is less than 650 CCA use it in something else and a get a good marine starting battery in either case, just .02.
Jumping the relay is never a really good idea you can short things in a hurry, And I'm assuming vince told you to connect both wires to the same post on the nautral safety switch to bypass it. And if you are only getting 12v at the battery then it's bad you should see at least 13-13.5 volts and around 14-14.5 when charging. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: October-18-2005 at 9:16pm
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The battery is an automotive type with 540 Amps (450 cold cranking amps). I believe that was recommended for the 351W. The battery had been cranking things right up. I'll put it on the charger and give it another shot. Or just try the one from my truck. It might be a little low on the voltage, it has been sitting for a month. I'll check the main cables again for corrosion and such.
Most of the time I connected the two nuetral switch leads to the same screw. Some times I just connected the two leads with a jumper wire. I'll connect the two leads on one post and leave it like that until I get things sorted out. What could I have shorted out by jumping the relay? What should I check? Also, is there anything that needed to be done to the starter before bolting it up, like anything with the solenoid attached to the starter? I read about a "link" or something in the PCM repair manual. Is there anything I could have done when removing or installing the transmission? The starter grounds to the engine block thru the bellhousing, right? I'm not missing a ground wire to the starter, am I? If I simply use jumper cables directly from the battery to the starter (+ to the starter post, - to the mounting bracket) it should turn over or at least start to engage, right? I turned the starter bendix with my finger before installing it, so I know it turns freely. |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: October-19-2005 at 6:08am
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Your battery is way under sized get rid of it and get a battery that has atleast 650 ColdCrankingA{B]amps. The battery you have would work fine for a 4 cyl engine but will not get the job done for a v-8 especailly one with a ford starter. It may have enought juice to turn the starter but it will not spin fast enough or have the extra juice to feed the ignition. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: October-19-2005 at 6:10am
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oooppps the bold lettering didn't work out the way I wanted it to. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: October-20-2005 at 9:49am
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Have you put a breaker bar on the Crankshaft pulley yet to make sure you haven't seized up the engine, possibly due to alignment issues when you reinstalled the transmission? Its much more likely a ground/starter/battery type issue but it would be good to rule out the unthinkable.
-Joe. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: October-21-2005 at 2:34am
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Which battery performs better?????????????
A full charged battery at -10F degrees or a half charged battery at 30F degree's???????????? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: David F
Date Posted: October-21-2005 at 9:21am
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I'll bite. Please be nice if I get it wrong. I think a half charged battery at 30F will perform better as colder temperatures really starts to effect performance (exponentially?).
Did I win? |
Posted By: JEFF KOSTIS
Date Posted: October-21-2005 at 9:12pm
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Cold cranking amps of a battery is based on 0 degress. Marine cranking amps (or sometimes referred as just plain cranking amps) is based on 32 degree temperature. So a 500 CCA battery will roughly produce 600 MCA. So if its half charged, will you get half the CCA? That is where it gets deeper in the reserve capacity rating of a battery. ------------- MUSTANG COUNTRY http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1074 - 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1093 - 1976 Mustang 17 |
Posted By: JEFF KOSTIS
Date Posted: October-21-2005 at 9:23pm
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Hey JIMBO, have you had any luck yet?? Get it figured out?? ------------- MUSTANG COUNTRY http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1074 - 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1093 - 1976 Mustang 17 |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: October-21-2005 at 10:59pm
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no, reserve on a battery? which one frooze? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: October-23-2005 at 6:21pm
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Yee-haaa...
I crawled under the dash and the violet wire to the key switch had broken loose from the connector. I fixed that, bypassed the neutral safety switch, and replaced the 4 ga cable from the relay to the starter. It fired up!!! By the way, trying the jumper cable directly to the battery doesn't work, I don't know why. I think it has something to do with the internal starter solenoid. Anyway, it's running. |
Posted By: JEFF KOSTIS
Date Posted: October-23-2005 at 6:29pm
SWEET to hear shes goin!!!
Does the starter have a built in solenoid like GM or does it have only one big wire to it like a Ford?? Just curious.. ------------- MUSTANG COUNTRY http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1074 - 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1093 - 1976 Mustang 17 |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: October-23-2005 at 10:35pm
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Jeff, I'm certainly not an expert on electrical systems, or engines for that matter. The starter is the Ford type, with one large cable connecting to it. In the PCM service book it mentions the starter relay and the starter soleniod (in the Ford section). It calls the thing under the cover that sticks out on the side of the starter the soleniod. Unless I got confussed. I always thought that was a capacitor to get things moving.
On second thought, I bet the current was going to ground at the relay because the problem at the key switch. It's like the key was always in the off position. This one really threw me for a loop. |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: October-23-2005 at 10:50pm
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Now for the cold battery question... Half charged meaning 6 volts or 300 amps? Either way it wouldn't start your boat or car.
As for the really cold battery...Sulfuric acid freezes around 50F. Since sulfuric is mixed with water in the battery, it will freeze at a lower temperature. Because of hydrogen bonding I'm sure it's like antifreeze in that when mixed with water, it freezes at a lower temperature than the pure acid or pure water. Because of Nautique79's clue, I would assume it would freeze around -10F. If you could get some current to flow through the cold battery, it would warm up and get sronger. The more current that flows through the half charged battery, the weaker it would get. Of course, I could be talking out of my a$$. I live in Texas and I can't remember it ever being cold enough to freeze a battery. |
Posted By: JEFF KOSTIS
Date Posted: October-24-2005 at 8:17pm
Jimbo, I thought by the year of the boat that it was a Ford starter, but then I thought that maybe you had a different style. My new PCM 350 uses a GM starter, but its mounted on the PCM bell housing adapter that adapts the engine to the trans. I persoally have never seen this, but Ive only been around older boats and dont know what year they went that route. The GM factory block still has the tapping/mount for a standard starter. I was concerned of maybe posting info that may not apply due to a different style. Oh yeah, where we are, it sometimes goes to -20 below zero and the vehicles crank over and start, so the batt cant be frozen. Im no chemist, but if the battery is dead, it will freeze. If its charged, it wont at that temp.  ------------- MUSTANG COUNTRY http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1074 - 1974 Mustang 17 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1093 - 1976 Mustang 17 |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: October-25-2005 at 4:38am
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I concur with '79; your battery is still undersized. We used to put that size on pontoon boat outboards. When they would mistakenly be put on an V8, they would be back next year with battery in hand comlaining of starting problems. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: October-25-2005 at 8:34am
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Ahh yes... there are reactions going on in the battery when it's just sitting. I forgot about that part. The reactions give off heat, which would help keep the battery from freezing. If the battery is dead, no electro-chemical reactions, then no heat, then freeze...hmmmm
As for the size of the battery. It's only six months old or so. When it's obivous the battery doesn't have the ummph to get things moving, I'll replace it. |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: October-25-2005 at 11:35am
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A fully charged battery is good to about -90F before it will freeze, a half charged battery will freeze at above 0.
Glad you tracked down the bad wire, I would concider getting a better battery in the future. A common mistake most make when jumping an engine is that they connect both cables to the battery posts on the car/boat they are trying to jump start. The mistake is the neg cable should go to the engine block instead of the battery post. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: October-25-2005 at 11:19pm
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Just to clear a few things up,...A fully charged battery will read 12.6 volts or more. If it reads more, it has what is called a surface charge. When batteries are load tested, the surface charge should be bled off (by putting a load across the battery for about 15 - 20 seconds) to get the unloaded voltage down to 12.6 volts before testing begins. Many techs who test batteries skip this step. A fully discharged battery (unloaded) reads approx. 11.6 - 11.8 volts, not 6 volts as previously mentioned (unless it has a dead cell - in which case the battery is no good and will not be able to hold a charge). When a battery is charged, the electrolyte is Sulfuric acid (H2SO4) That's 2 parts Hydrogen, 1 part Sulfur and 4 parts Oxygen. The plates are made of sponge lead. As the battery discharges, a chemical reaction takes place and the sulfur combines with the sponge lead to create lead sulfate. The electrolyte changes properties and becomes a higher percentage of water (H2O). A fully discharged battery has the highest percentage of water vs. Sulfuric acid. This is why it freezes at a higher temperature. There is no chemical reaction going on in the battery to produce any heat unless it is being charged or discharged. Sulfuric acid has a lower freezing point than water. It should also be mentioned that the longer a battery remains in a discharged state, the harder it becomes to break the sulfur loose from the lead. Some of the sulfur will remain attached and the battery looses some of its capacity. This is what is referred to as "the battery is sulfated". So when storing your battery for the winter, make sure it is fully charged. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: October-26-2005 at 11:24am
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HMMMMM?????? That maybe the case for an older lead acid battery that you have to add water to. But for the newwer style sealed batteries it as a gel mixture and very little water is in it. You are right on the surface charge and that it will give you a higher reading. But If I get 12.7V or less, that battery is junk. It should have 12.8-13.0 volts when fully charged and It better show 13.5V right after start-up to tell me the charging system is working correctly and if it is only giving me 13.0 then your charging system needs repaired. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: October-26-2005 at 4:17pm
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Yes, 79, you are right! I was talking about lead acid batteries in the above post. I haven't studied the newer battery technology yet, it was covered when I went to school at Florida Community College of Jacksonville yet. I only wanted to point out that a 12 volt battery that is reading only 6 volts (unloaded) has a far worse condition than only being 1/2 charged. It would have to have dead cells (more than one). It would be completely unrecoverable and no amount of charging will bring it back.
You are dead on with the charging system. In fact most alternators built today have their internal voltage regulators set between 13.8 and 14.2 volts. I've even seen a few put out up to 14.5. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: October-28-2005 at 8:31pm
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The melting point of concentrated sulphuric acid is 10C. The melting point of water is 0C. A solution of the two has a lower melting point than either one by it's self; just like antifreeze.
A battery discharges even when not being used. This reaction is exothermic (gives off heat). Energy is neither created nor destroyed. If you put energy into a battery to charge it, engery is given off when it discharges. That energy is in the form of heat when it's just sitting around. I agree, if you store a battery at less than 0C it should be fully charged. I can't imagine storing me at <0C for six months, much less a battery. |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: October-29-2005 at 1:54am
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Hmmmm?? water/sulfer mix very old, today not the same?????????? no current flow no heat no energy loss,no reaction,still stored as????, poticial(SP) energy not transfer to kenetic, still potencial (sp) energy no load no lose stays same????????????? no reaction occurs, already at maximum potencial(sp)??????????????? waiting for kenetic release,,,, current, amps, draw, load?????? where it come from???? key turn????????????
Man it's late ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: October-29-2005 at 4:43am
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'79, I think they make a pill for that ..
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