Siezed GT40
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25752
Printed Date: November-24-2024 at 5:18pm
Topic: Siezed GT40
Posted By: Silver15
Subject: Siezed GT40
Date Posted: April-27-2012 at 6:30pm
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Hello, all. Just bought a 1998 Ski Nautique with the GT40 EFI. Has low hours, however the previous owner for some reason did not bother to pull the drain plug when storing in open weather. The boat, consequently, filled with water submerging the engine up to about the sparkplugs. We are trying to spin the engine by spinning the main bolt on the main pulley. There is no rotation, however, I suppose it could be stiff from sitting? There is no evidence that water entered the crankcase(No milky oil), but not sure about heads. Already pulled the rusted starter. Does anyone have any thoughts on either freeing the engine, or finding a new one? Thanks in advanced for help! Jake. ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Replies:
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: April-27-2012 at 6:41pm
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silver, You might do a search... There have been several people who've freed up their engines, but more just from sitting than rust. I think most do some penetrating oil (acetone and trans fluid are recommended often) in the spark plug holes, let it sit for a day, add more pentrating oil. after a few days, you may be able to turn the engine by the crank pulley and a breaker bar. I would anticipate having to do a complete rebuild, My guess is that the cyls and rings have "become one". If you are not handy with engines, an new one might be better in the long run...but will definitely set you back a bit on the front end. Check with Jody Seal at FL inboards... he does replacements and may be able to get you a low hour removal. I believe Kroundy is still looking for an engine too, if you don't want to mess with the old one. |
Posted By: watrski
Date Posted: April-27-2012 at 7:17pm
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Aero Kroil Buy a gallon. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-27-2012 at 7:27pm
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
watrski wrote:Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: April-27-2012 at 7:43pm
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That crank bolt has its limits. A http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-4798/" rel="nofollow - crankshaft socket is a cool tool to have; even more so on a RH engine. I filtered(Summit) ford/5.8-351/small blk windsor so double check the part app; and guys...why do they list a 5.8-352? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: 65 'cuda
Date Posted: April-27-2012 at 8:03pm
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Early fe blocks were 352 cubic inches, then 390 then 427. ------------- Gary http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=941" rel="nofollow - 1965 Barracuda SS |
Posted By: watrski
Date Posted: April-27-2012 at 9:27pm
Aero Kroil - $45 ATF-Acetone - $25 + Liver transplant. |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: April-27-2012 at 9:37pm
 ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-27-2012 at 9:40pm
Tim, The PEL for acetone is 1000ppm. That's very high for a solvent. The MSDS doesn't say anything about liver damage. Get the facts first. Now, you can use acetone for you huffing without too many worries.  Look at these for Kroil: Severely Hydrotreated Petroleum Distillates 5 mg/m3 OSHA PEL 5 mg/m3 ACGIH TLV 10 mg/m3 ACGIH TLV-STEL Light Petroleum Distillates 100 ppm OSHA PEL 100 ppm ACGIH TLV- Aliphatic Alcohol 150 ppm OSHA PEL 100 ppm ACGIH TLV- Aliphatic Alcohol 50 ppm OSHA PEL 50 ppm ACGIH TLV- Glycol Ether 50 ppm OSHA PEL 20 ppm ACGIH TLV- Plus, there is a statement in it's MSDS about liver damage!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KRoundy
Date Posted: April-27-2012 at 11:00pm
Hmmm... another tool that I need to own... ------------- Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: April-27-2012 at 11:04pm
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LOL, acetone is fingernail polish remover. Ladies use the stuff in the house w/o ventilation all the time. Maybe OSHA needs to audit the Mustang Ranch for workplace violations?? ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-27-2012 at 11:10pm
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I wonder if you have a greater chance of liver damage at a reunion than breathing acetone ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-27-2012 at 11:11pm
God help us if OSHA get's into our homes. There are products we can buy at the hardware or grocery store that industry can't.  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: April-28-2012 at 9:52am
Maybe you can find one you can borrow? You won't use it very often, but the $20-40 will seem cheap if the nose bolt gives. Another trick is to remove the balancer pulley and put 3" bolts in the balancer. You can then use a box end wrench over one bolt and lever against the next. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: levinmark
Date Posted: April-28-2012 at 10:18am
+1 on the ATF/Acetone, unbelieveable how well it works, we have old open quarts of ATF at the shop, just buy a gallon of acetone and have more than enough to last quite a while.  Plus its a good way to discard old ATF lying around in the shop.------------- levin |
Posted By: Fl Inboards
Date Posted: April-28-2012 at 10:24am
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All this shade tree advice is rather amusing. Their is a reason the motor is locked up. Rings have welded them selves to the cylinder walls. cylinder bores are rusted up and rings have been compromised, all this provided the cause is water intrusion into the cylinder's. If it can be made to turn freely by penetrating fluids breaker bars or whatever what kind of cylinder pressures are going to be expected? What kind of compression is it going to have, how well will the motor run? This list can go on and on. Utilizing a breaker bar could bend a rod or cause other damage in the long run. Best idea is to pull the motor down address the problems and reassemble. Machining and materials provided the motor is not hurt should run less than $1000.00. But then again get that big breaker bar out and overall costs could run much higher! Good luck! ------------- Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise. 1993 Shamrock "fat" 20. 2008 Nautique 196 5.0 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-28-2012 at 10:53am
Jody is correct. If the rotating assembly is locked up by rings/pistons rusted to the cylinders that light use of a breaker bar can't break loose, then it's time to tear down the engine. This is locked up : It took soaking with kroil and using wood and a hammer to get them out! Anything can be rebuilt but taking the extra time will be beneficial in the long run.  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: April-28-2012 at 11:45am
Agreed, but I didn't balk at a $40 tool. My line of thinking was based on where he said the water rose to. If it sat without a doghouse and carb, then ... ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: April-28-2012 at 11:48am
Jake, the plugs were in? Am I forgetting a spot for water intrusion? ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: Morfoot
Date Posted: April-28-2012 at 12:12pm
Good one Gary, I think that statement couldn't be more true. "Forget about the Apple-Pie Moonshine just load up the shot ski with Acetone" ------------- "Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman" |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-28-2012 at 1:13pm
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You know Tim I only get to see Don once a year,but acetone is just a 3 mile drive from here I understand Jody's thinking you have a late model boat. But mine was a frozen 20 yr old boat, got it freed up in a week and used it all the next summer but I had nothing to loose. Go rent,borrow, buy a bore scope and look inside. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: April-28-2012 at 6:28pm
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Thanks for replies. We have had it soaking in PB blaster (similar to Kroil) and a few other things. Still no movement. Do you guys believe that an ATF/acetone mixture could free her up? I haven't decided what direction to go. I heard that a brand new GT40 retails at about $4,900. Considering that option. I really don't have the time to deal with this right now; I'm very preoccupied with my other project (1966 Barracuda). Another idea I had would be to find someone who will go through it, and call me when he has it running right. Would any of you experts on here be interested or know anyone who is trustworthy and knowledgable enough to get it running right? Time isn't a huge factor... we have plenty of other boats to play with for the time being. It would be great to get her back in good running shape, though. Jake ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: April-28-2012 at 6:32pm
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Buffalo, the plugs were in, but with it sitting at this water level for possibly a year or more (we're not sure how long exactly), water could have, and apparently did, seep through somewhere and seize it. ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-28-2012 at 7:37pm
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Jake, I know you said you checked the oil and it didn't look "milky". However, if water did somehow seep in, oil having a SG lighter than water, the water would be at the bottom of the pan. It takes running the engine with the water to get it to mix and turn the oil milky. Have you drained the oil yet? The ATF/acetone mix is sure better than that PB junk. Didn't you see the torque specs in my previous post? Buying the PB sure is proof that "Madison Avenue" advertising sure can con many people! Don't go wild with the breaker bar or whatever to get the engine to turn. Just as Jody mentioned, there are limits that could lead to problems. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-28-2012 at 8:00pm
Even if it didn't actually leak in don't forget how humid it is where he lives and the fact a water filled bilge covered by a motor box would make an interesting terrarium  input shaft on the trans could be rusty too. Don't ask how I know  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: April-28-2012 at 9:44pm
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FREE!! She broke loose and turns free! Seems like the Coca Cola and PB blaster mixture actually did the trick. Yes, we actually started loosening the nose bolt by accident. A combination of my dad with a crow bar against the flywheel teeth and me cranking on the nose bolt broke it loose. Now to get the starter rebuilt. We drained some of the oil off of the bottom and it wasn't bad. Also, when I pressed the shrader valve on the fuel rail, there was pressure! We emptied all of the bad fuel out of the tank and we're going to flush out the rails when we get a new battery in it. Is there anything else we should do before we install the new starter and start trying to get it running? (assuming it still has enough compression) I'm not familiar with the EFI engines in regards to electronic components. Thanks! Jake ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-28-2012 at 10:15pm
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Jake, This is good news! Just keep moving forward and see what happens. Once you get it running, a compression test would tell plenty. Just one bit of advice and that is, do not get a deep cycle battery. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 1:06am
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Your low pressure fuel pump was under water. Don't know if it will still be okay or not since I don't know if it is hermetically sealed. As for the electronics, hopefully the relays, ECC, etc. were above the water line. When you are ready, when you turn the key to the on position (not start), both fuel pumps (low pressure and the high pressure (the one in the FCC) should turn on for about one second, and then turn off. That will tell you two things: 1. the pumps are getting power, and 2. the ECC is turing the pumps off after one second (which they do if the engine is not running or the starter is not engaged). If you turn the key and you don't hear the pumps turn on and then off, you've got electrical issues or an ECC issue. What about the transmission? That was under water, so I suspect there is going to be an issue there as well As Pete said, just keep moving forward and take it one thing at a time. There are a good number of GT40 owners on the forum. ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: Waterdog
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 1:16am
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If the water was up to the spark plugs don't ya think the trans is slam full of water ???  ------------- - waterdog - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3896&sort=&pagenum=2&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978" rel="nofollow - 78 Ski Tique |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 1:21am
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Pete, what is the problem with a deep cycle?(other than the fact that it probably wouldn't fit in the battery compartment... Gordon, yes, a good amount of equipment was submerged. I am fully anticipating needing an engine rebuild, but on the chance that it may run how it is, I'll see what I can do. Yes, we hooked the battery up the other day for the first time. The low pressure pump on the bottom side of the engine near the canister filter thing buzzed to life for several seconds. I didn't hear the other pump, but then again I wasn't listening for it... and maybe it's not audible anyways. It did not exactly sound healthy, but maybe it's okay? I did have pressure at the rails, so that's a good sign I guess. The water level did reach the bottom of the electronic computer on the backside of the engine, but like I said...maybe we'll get lucky and it will be unscathed. As for the transmission, the fill cap had a good seal, the shaft spins freely, and the fluid was bright and red with no visible signs of water intrusion. We won't know until we put it in gear, I guess. Are there any major items that we should check before re-installing the starter and trying to crank? We will check spark and comp. as soon as we get the chance. Jake ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 1:23am
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Waterdog, beautiful Silver Nautique in your pic. ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 1:37am
I'd try to get it to run too.  On the pumps, both pumps are on the same circuit. When you turn the key to on (not start), the ECC will flip the pump relay and both pumps will run for about a second. If it doesn't sense the engine running (or cranking), it turns the pumps off. Since both pumps are on the same circuit, you can test each one. First, unplug the high pressure pump (inside the FCC) and power the pump circuit. You can jump a pin from the tester port to ground and that will make the pump circuit stay on when the key is on. This way, you can keep the pumps running. A quick test of the low pressure pump (assuming you've put new fuel in the tank) is to turn the pump on (with the engine off). The fuel flows from the tank to the pump, then to the FCC. The excess flows back into the tank, so if it is working, you will hear fuel splashing back into the tank from the return hose. As for the high pressure pump, the proof is in the PSI at the rail, so it sounds good so far. If you unplug the low pressure pump and run the pump circuit, you should hear the high pressure pump (you can feel the vibration if you hold the FCC with it running). Key to these tests are jumping the tester port pin so the pumps keep running with the engine off so you can hear. ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 1:38am
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Oh, on the starter, make sure you get one with the correct rotation! I doubt you can salvage it. ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: AMB
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 1:59am
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If by chance you determine the engine is bad, there is always: http://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?topic=Search&category=Parts_Engine&postid=18032 If you had water sitting in the boat, the steering cable could have been compromised. How does the steering wheel turn? The blower motor is down there too.. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 8:59am
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Jake, A deep cycle battery is designed and made for low amp draws over lomg periods of time like for a trolling motor. The starter on an engine draws BIG amps for brief periods of time. That will kill a deep cycle. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 9:01am
http://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?topic=Search&category=Parts_Engine&postid=18032" rel="nofollow - Link for Al ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: M3Fan
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 12:18pm
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Along with a new starter you can safely add new battery cables and potentially a new input seal on the transmission... been there, albeit with bilge-only flooding. ------------- 2000 SN GT40 w/99 Graphics/Gel 2016 SN 200 OB 5.3L DI https://forum.fifteenoff.com |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 12:43pm
Gordon, There is a good chance he can salvage the starter. Tearing it down and then a good clean up especially the armature commutator should do it. I'd suggest new brushes, checking the axial play on the bushings and making sure the Bendix is free should do it. I had a oilless compressor for my boathouse aeration go under water when the ice took out the cribbing. It was under for better than 2 months. I took it apart, cleaned it up, put it back together and plugged it in! The varnish used to insulate the the windings of any electric motor is not affected by water. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 4:27pm
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That will be cool if he can salvage the starter. On the steering cable, I can almost guarentee you need a new one. One time the bilge plug worked its way out while wakeboarding my son and his friends. Didn't know until turning around quicky to pick up my son in the water when water came sloshing up onto the carpet by the stern (this was with auto bilge on and running--our prop packing was loose at the time so the pump would go on occasionally--didn't realize it had been on continuously). Cable was under water, and it tightened up by the next season. The other time (the only winter my boat was outside) I once forgot to leave the plug out. Even with two covers, with a week of heavy rains (and out on a business trip so didn't know how much it was raining), I got water up to the bottom of the starter (and the steering cable under water again). That one was only two seasons old, but it went south just as fast as the new one. Auto-bilge is always on and I keep my bilge as dry as possible all the time now (dripless prop shaft seal, etc.). Live and learn. ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 8:07pm
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While the boat was filled with water from time to time, the previous owner would stop by every couple of weeks and empty it out either with the bilge pump, or a hand pump. It was not submerged for extremely long periods of time (or so he said). The starter was not salvageable, so we had to purchase a new one. The steering cable is actually just fine! Steers pretty smoothly. All other vitals seem to be okay. I'm about to go out and reinstall the starter and see what she'll do. Before I do that, I'll test the pumps like you said. I think the engine had a pre existing condition that caused it to run rough and die, which is why he put it in storage. Because that was going to fix it, somehow? .. some people's logic is quite interesting. Anyways, I will update you as soon as I get everything put back together. Thanks so much for the informative replies! Jake ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 8:21pm
Jake, I'm sorry you bought a new one. Who told you it wasn't salvageable and why? Was each winding Ohm'd out? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 8:28pm
You should ask him why he just didn't open the garboard drain!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Donald80SN
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 9:04pm
Tim and Gary, Granny's Liver is just fine. We used the shot ski on Saturday night at White Lake and then Tim, Joe, and Reid, skied with it on Sunday. Tim had the most success. He went about three miles and was cutting the wake. I think they invented a new water sport. Eddie brought the clear stuff which made the Apple Pie look tame. Sorry for the hijack but I wanted everyone to know that Granny is OK. Donald |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 11:59pm
Pete, we took the starter to a guy here in Orlando who has always done us right... we trusted his assessment. I would have posted a picture, but we already turned it in for core charge... you could pretty much tell it had "become one". I just spun the engine over with new starter. Everything sounds good as far as I can tell. Haven't checked compression, but there is good, solid spark. Also, the fuel pumps no longer turn on.  I tried using the test port as I had seen a picture of in AMB's post, but no pump noise. When I ground the connector, I can hear a clicking of a relay, but that's it. When we arrived on site to pick up the boat, we immediately pulled the plug to which the owner replied, "Wow, I never noticed that there."  I suppose I have to thank people like that. If they weren't around, I wouldn't be able to buy their boats after they ruin them! ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 1:19am
Just ran a quick compression test in the dark... Had 120psi in the first.. .and then 50-60psi on the next two. Needless to say... I stopped there. Am I most likely looking at a rebuild here, or would some running and use bring up compression? I guess if all of the remaining 5 cylinders have compression like that, it may not even run at all.  ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 8:45am
I figured that's what happened. A auto electric shop really isn't set up to go beyond their normal test, bush and brush "rebuild" and the reason I mentioned it's something you can do yourself. Think about one thing - the starter has a core value because it will get sent back to companies that will rebuild them! I was too late with my comment to save you the expence.  That's a good story about the drain! You'll never forget it!------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 12:17pm
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The last starter I had rebuilt cost $180. The new style PMGR starters can be found for $100-125. Unless your local shops work much cheaper than the ones here, its not worth rebuilding the old one, IMHO. ------------- |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 1:16pm
Tim, I guess I have a tendency to work on older items than yourself and enjoy tearing into them to rebuild to a functioning condition. In many cases, it's also the only option as well. I also save a few $$$ in the process. A couple hours opening up a starter is worth my time. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 3:10pm
In that case, I'll start sending you mine. You must be a few steps "worse" than me, Pete... the only thing I own that has an engine built within the last 20 years is my 4Runner. That includes my inboards, outboards and all of my lawn and garden equipment- and of course, I work on them all myself. That being said, if I can buy a brand new starter for $100 as opposed to paying $180 to have someone else rebuild the one I have, thats a no-brainer. Im not opposed to cracking things open and learning how to repair them, but for such an inexpensive, readily available item, I guess Id just rather go skiing! (Or maybe work on one of my thousand other projects that I cant finish by throwing $100 at them ).------------- |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 3:59pm
Just wait untill the time comes when you get married and possibly have some kids. Those deep pockets of yours will get real shallow in a hurry! BTW, how are things going with Melisa?  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 6:18pm
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Pete, that is a good point. Lately I just haven't had the time to mess with too much. The new starter was only $120 and I can depend on it working for the next several years at least. If it was my old '66, I would definitely be more willing to pull it apart rather than tracing down another one. Also, since this boat project is being funded by my dad... it makes no difference to me. I have worked on plenty of electric motors, particularly outboard electric trim motors. Outboards are more of my specialty. Yes... the drain plug really astounded me. I wonder what else he didn't know about. So now that I have low compression on some cylinders, I guess I'm either left to find a new or used one, rebuild this one, find someone else to rebuild it, or make it do. I guess running it like this would just further any scoring within the cylinders. Anyone have any advice as far as which direction to go here? Thanks, Jake ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 6:36pm
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Jake, Get it running, get some Marvel Mystery oil down the cylinders and put some minimal run time on it. Then, do another compression test on it. If it's still bad, then you know there are still some issues. You have nothing to loose and at least you tried. You may even have some valves sticking. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 7:27pm
I agree. You are almost there anyway; worth trying it just to see what happens. Could be "fun". ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 7:40pm
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Oh, you might want to pull the distributor and turn the oil pump a bit before you try to start it. I'd make sure you've got lots of oil everywhere (and hopefully displaced any moisture if there is some inside the engine). ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: crobi2
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 8:00pm
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I agree change the oil, pump her up and fire her up. Those cylinders may sort themselves out just fine. ------------- C-Rob 2000 SAN |
Posted By: Fl Inboards
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 8:46pm
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This gentlemen called me today and is rather motivated to sell his GT-40 might be able to get it for less then advertised and it is a great running machine http://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?topic=Search&category=Parts_Engine&postid=18032" rel="nofollow - http://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?topic=Search&category=Parts_Engine&postid=18032 ------------- Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise. 1993 Shamrock "fat" 20. 2008 Nautique 196 5.0 |
Posted By: Waterdog
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 10:22pm
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Jody, That GT40 looks like a great deal. ------------- - waterdog - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3896&sort=&pagenum=2&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978" rel="nofollow - 78 Ski Tique |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 11:37pm
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Our relays for the fuel pumps was bad. We just hardwired the connection using alligator clips, and they both pump well. 40psi on the rail. The engine will spin and start briefly, and sounds alright. Our batteries died, but after a good night's charge we will try again tomorrow and see what we can do. I haven't changed the oil or bothered pulling the distributor, but that's a good idea. Pete, you may be right. There is a little bit of clicking from beneath one of the valve covers, so there could be a stuck valve somewhere. Not sure, yet. It looks like you must remove the manifolds in order to remove the valve cover. Jody, the GT40 you posted looks clean and all, and I guess that's a good deal (I haven't researched pricing at all yet), but with 1700+ hours, does it still have life left on it? It's a little bit of a drive from me, but if it's really a good deal, it may be worth the journey. Thanks a lot, Jake. ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: bhectus
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 12:52am
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Jake, can't wait to see the new boat. Stacey told me about it tonight, and my jaw hit the floor when she told me how much you got it for. Call me when you get a chance and I'll get you Woody's contact info, he worked on my '96 and did a great job replacing the heads. He's as honest as they come and he knows a ton about these boats. Very reasonably priced also. Have your dad get my number from Stace or message me on FB. ------------- '02 Ski Nautique 196 w/ 5.7 Apex bowtie - Sold '87 Barefoot - sold '97 Super Sport Nautique - originally custom built for Walt Meloon '97 Ski Nautique '83 SN 2001 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 8:49am
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Jake, The exhaust manifolds shouldn't have to come off to get the valve covers off. You will however need a flex joint on a 1/4" ratchet to get to the outside cover bolts. It's tight! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 10:58am
Forget that! You'll spend 3x as much time trying to pull and reinstall the VC's if you keep the manifolds on. Just pull them and be done with it! ------------- |
Posted By: Waterdog
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 12:09pm
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I use 2 long bolts in the end holes of the exhaust manifold. Remove the other bolts and slide the manifolds back out of the way on the long bolts. It works good to r&r v/covers and exhaust to head gaskets. Keeps the cusin' to a minimum. ------------- - waterdog - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3896&sort=&pagenum=2&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978" rel="nofollow - 78 Ski Tique |
Posted By: MI-nick
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 1:04pm
since it's been under water, i'm sure the manifolds will just come right off... ------------- As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure... |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 2:24pm
No kidding!! Be very careful of the riser bolts (the long ones). Two of the four (one on each riser) on mine sheared/broke off with little stubs sticking out of the exhaust manifold when I replaced my heads. It took multiple torching, etc. before I finally got the stubs out (and I had a fused manifold bold that I had to grind off). If the manifolds/risers come out easily, then I agree taking them off is probably easier than trying to take the VCs off with them on. But if you just want to get to the valves first and any of the manifold or riser bolts are showing signs of not coming off easily, I'd try to get the VC off first (since you want the manifolds/risers on to test the engine once you've checked the valves). Having to deal with problems with the manifold just to get them back on to further test the engine will add a ton of time. The manifolds/risers will need to be dealt with, but I think I'd want to confirm the status of the engine before I spent any time on sheared riser bolts or fused manifold bolts. ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 3:43pm
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If you take the whole manifold off as Andy explained, there's no need to mess with the riser's. But as Nick alluded to they probably won't come off without a fight. |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 10:58pm
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Bret, yes, it was a really incredible deal, and since we've been wanting a newer boat for a while, it all just made sense. We just called Stacey's phone and left a message. We also have Art from Southeast in the neighborhood, and he has been a great help. Update: After a new set of plugs, it will start up and run good.... until it runs out of starter fluid. (The lubricated starter fluid, of course!) So it is apparent that the injectors are not functioning for some reason. They do have power (Confirmed with test light), but we don't see any flicker in the light indicating that the injectors are being activated. So, at this point, I suppose we have run into a computer related issue? As far as the valve covers and manifolds go, we will wait to see how it runs and then pull them off if need be. The manifold bolts don't look complete destroyed, but as you all have explained, I'm sure they will test my patience. After doing a little snooping around it does look like we could possibly remove the valve cover without touching the manifolds, but it is TIGHT in there. A note worthy mistake I made today was to shoot the starter fluid into the intake with the little straw attached to the can. The straw ejected from the can into an unreachable part of the intake, so I had to remove the intake and shake it until the straw fell out. Luckily, in my furious tirade, I was able to remove, and re-install the intake in 10 minutes or so without any damage. If anyone has any ideas about my lack of fuel supply, please fill me in! Thanks for all the help, Jake. ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 11:51pm
LOL on the starter fluid straw; I came VERY close to doing the same thing with some cleaner but it bounced off and didn't go in! I haven't tackled anything on the injectors, but I believe the GT40 manual has a good set of tests to follow. It could be the computer, it could be the crank position sensor, wires, etc. I'd start with the tests and work your way backwards. Since you are getting spark, it would seem the computer is working, but there is a problem with the signals out to the injectors. I don't know how they are wired, so hopefully someone else has worked on them. Lewey in Australia seems to know a lot about the electronics on the GT40. ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: May-02-2012 at 11:57pm
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Silver remove the 60 pin ECA connector and inspect the connectors. If water got over the relays it would have at least got to the computer connector height. I would then remove the computer from the bracket and inspect the circuit board for water damage. It has a rubber gasket around the outside of the housing that may have offered some protection from water intrusion. But if it was submerged I doubt it would be waterproof. As long as power was not applied to the computer ECM while wet it maybe ok. If the ECM is NBG that $2000 complete engine starts to look better. It must have had almost a 10"-12" of water above the floor level for the relays to go under. Hopefully it never got higher than that. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: May-03-2012 at 12:52am
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The drive to Texas would be a longgg drive, but may be worth it. Or maybe he would ship it? The price seems to be good. The amount of hours does concern me some. I may need to get in touch with the seller. Lewy, yes the water rose to the very bottom of the boot that covers the connector you are talking about, so that may be the problem we are having. I haven't pulled it apart yet to assess it yet. I will do that the first chance I get tomorrow. Gordon, if this plug doesn't turn out to be the issue, I will go find the manual in the reference section and perform said tests. And yes, it was a stupid mistake that I will not make again. Although, the intake on the GT40 was engineered pretty well for easy removal. Only 5 or 6 bolts and some connectors to TPS, Idle control motor, and some other things. Thanks, Jake. ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: May-07-2012 at 12:49am
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Update: Pulled the injectors the other day as well as the rail. I don't know much about injectors, but imagine they shouldn't be completely plugged with gunk. So I sent them to a local injector shop to be cleaned and reworked. The company sent them back saying they were "damaged beyond repair". So from that, I would tend to say I found my problem. (We checked again and had better inication that the injectors were recieving signal to open.) Lewy, I took apart the plug you were referring to. All seemed sound in there. What should I expect to pay for new injectors? I've heard everything from $50 to $200 a piece. Thanks a bunch, Jake. ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-08-2012 at 7:07am
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Not positive these are the ones, but a good place to start. http://www.injectorwarehouse.com/injectors/Ford/mp2009.htm These are for the 305 and the 351W. ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: TimSpangler
Date Posted: May-08-2012 at 11:06am
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http://www.injectorwarehouse.com/injectors/Ford/mp2009.htm" rel="nofollow - Direct Link Not sure of the Marine application but they will be either 19lb (orange top) or 24lb (blue top). If they are the same a automotive I would go to a you pull it yard and find them. Ford trucks, vans, mustangs, etc. They may need cleaned also but if they are proven "bad" most yards will exchange them for good ones. I had to do this for an old Mustang, during a cam install one went missing. Never had any problems with it. |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: May-09-2012 at 12:30am
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Gordon, yes those are what I ended up getting almost. Got the entire set for about $50. They aren't the bosche ones that came out, but are the equivalent of an off brand. My dad was the one who ordered them, so I'm not sure of the specifics yet. Tim, yup, they are 24lbs blue tops. I believe the ones we got were for an automotive application, but supposedly, there is no difference. Anyway, can't wait to get the new ones in there and see what she'll do. I'm pretty certain this was the issue. It's evident all of the old ones were ruined by contaminated fuel. We are currently running off a remote tank, but can the FCC filter assembly be cleaned to ensure that no more garbage will get up in the rails/Injector? Thanks, Jake. ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: May-15-2012 at 2:22am
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All injectors are installed, and it started right up! Runs pretty well for not having been started in 3 years, being partially submerged for part of that time as well as being neglected it's entire life. :) It has a little water leaking from the intake manifold gasket area, so I'll need to check that out. Lots of smoke from oil that leaked onto the exhaust manifold. Seemed like it could also be getting hot running on the hose. I will confirm with the thermo gun. Pretty good progress for one weekend. Also, for any of you who were following my "'66 Barracuda" thread, the heads are almost back on. Maybe both of these rigs will have their debuts on the same day!? Does anyone know the proper oil capacity for the GT-40? Is it standard 5 qts? Thanks to everyone who helped and posted! Jake. ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-15-2012 at 4:35am
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Where'd you get the injectors for $50? Please let me know where your dad got them. I'm tempted to replace mine simply to see if my engine loping problem will stop (and it can't hurt to have new ones in place) although I have a couple more tests to do first). I don't have my manual in front of me, but with filter replacement, I always put in 5 quarts. ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: May-16-2012 at 1:13am
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Gordon, they were bought on Ebay. We actually ended up paying about $90 for the set of 8. They were used, cleaned, tested and flowrated. The vender's Ebay ID is "eazeefind". He deals injectors, so he may have some more on there. http://www.ebay.com/sch/eazeefind/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686 The blue top 24lbs are the ones you want. Hope this helps. Thanks for the oil spec. Just wanted to double check. Jake ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: May-16-2012 at 1:14am
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http://www.ebay.com/sch/eazeefind/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686" rel="nofollow - Here's the correct link ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: slmskrs
Date Posted: May-16-2012 at 1:43pm
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Thanks Jake! ------------- Gordon '97 Ski Nautique, GT40 |
Posted By: KRoundy
Date Posted: May-16-2012 at 3:55pm
Ugh, that would be perfect! Anybody here want to buy this engine and hold it for me until I can save up the $ to buy it? Money, money, money - Jody's little motto about cubic dollars is so true. My day will come! ------------- Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: May-16-2012 at 4:01pm
| Kevin, do you need a transmission too? Or just an engine? |
Posted By: KRoundy
Date Posted: May-16-2012 at 5:07pm
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I have a 1.23/1 transmission from a 1992 SN. ------------- Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: May-16-2012 at 5:27pm
I'm thinking you might be better off with a non-EFI powerplant. This isn't because of the transmission, it's because of what was probably in your boat before. You'd need a low pressure fuel pump at minimum and some extra electrical knick-knacks to get it all to work with a GT-40. I'm sure others would have more specific recommendations. The carb-GT-40 conversion has probably been done before but may not be the easiest route. |
Posted By: KRoundy
Date Posted: May-16-2012 at 5:58pm
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Wouldn't all that stuff (fuel pump, electrical kick-knacks) come with a complete engine? Fuel injection was an option in 1993, and I (naively?) figured there could not be much difference from a 1993 PCM to a 1997. Please educate me. If I have to narrow down my search to a small band of engines I need to know. And - what would that band be? I need a standard-rotation engine and now I learn that it would need to be carbed? So, what is that, 1989 to 1993? ------------- Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: May-16-2012 at 6:03pm
Good question, I don't know. That might warrant a separate post. |
Posted By: KRoundy
Date Posted: May-16-2012 at 6:09pm
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Good idea. I'll stop jacking this thread. :) ------------- Previous: 1993 Electric Blue/Charcoal Ski Nautique Current: 2016 Ski Nautique 200 Open Bow |
Posted By: ultrarunner
Date Posted: May-17-2012 at 2:01am
| Silver, I'd run it again, then do an oil and filter change, then run it again and do the same. Likely some nasty particles running around inside that motor you want to get rid of. |
Posted By: Silver15
Date Posted: May-18-2012 at 2:10am
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No problem, Gordon, let me know if it ends up working out for you. Kevin, with my experience with the GT40, it's definitely a high tech engine that has MANY more parts than a standard carbed 351. In 93, I believe they offered a fuel injection system called the "Protec". I hear it wasn't the best system and tended to break. You may be good just sticking with your current engine, unless you're set on more power for footing or what not. If you bought a complete engine like the one Jody posted, it should come with everything to make it run in your boat other than the check engine light and such. The fuel pumps are attached to the engine itself. To be honest, a carbed engine may be more reliable for you in the long run. Ultra, good call. That's what we did this evening. After repairing a leak in the manifold gasket, we ran it with fresh oil, and it ran excellent. (In the driveway on the hose) Changed the oil and found that the oil filter hadn't been changed since 2006. Flushed alot of garbage out of the cooling system while the manifold was off, and it seems to run cool now. Tomorrow should be it's lake deput if everything goes as planned. I will try to get a vid up. Hard to believe this boat was submerged with cat tails living in it, and siezed engine not a month ago. Jake. ------------- 2000 Air/Sport 1978 T16 |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-18-2012 at 11:02am
The Protec was an ignition system, not a fuel injection system. It came on both carbureted (1991+) and TBI EFI (1994-1995) motors. Joe has begun to catalog the GT40 specific components and has found that most/all parts are standard Ford automotive parts. Its a more complex engine for sure, and a little trickier to troubleshoot than a carb'd boat, but a good motor nonetheless. A GT40 will have more power for footing than a standard 240hp carb'd 351w... but its not the MPEFI that makes it more powerful. A carb'd motor can be built up to the same (or higher) hp levels very easily. ------------- |
Posted By: TimSpangler
Date Posted: May-18-2012 at 11:31am
| I believe that biggest difference in the GT-40 (at least I know from an automotive perspective) was the airflow. The GT-40 eliminated a lot of the airflow restrictions and generally allowed the engine to "breathe" better. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-18-2012 at 12:27pm
I believe the GT40 and the other PCM HO 351w's (carb/TBI) shared the same longblock (block/heads/cam/pistons). The only difference was the intake (and of course the fuel system). They all performed similarly well, and had similar hp ratings (285-310hp). ------------- |
Posted By: TimSpangler
Date Posted: May-18-2012 at 12:40pm
I think that it was the short block that was the same. The heads I know where different between the std and the the GT-40. (at least from an auto perspective), but yeah they all were close in performance. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-18-2012 at 12:42pm
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Note that I said "HO" PCM's above. They made both a 240-255hp "standard" version, as well as HO (aka Pro Boss) versions (starting in 1992). First carb, then TBI ('94-95) and then multiport (1995-2002). All HO PCM's used GT40 heads, the GT40 MPEFI included. ------------- |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: May-18-2012 at 12:46pm
Any idea where they get the 15hp difference in the 240-255hp Standard versions? I've seen both ratings listed, but it sounds like basically the same motor. |
Posted By: TimSpangler
Date Posted: May-18-2012 at 12:47pm
| Sorry Tim. I'm not as much up on the marine stuff as I am on the auto. The "HO" on the auto side only really got you a roller cam. So you say the "HO" came std with GT-40 Heads? |
Posted By: TimSpangler
Date Posted: May-18-2012 at 12:50pm
I know that the GT-40 heads had larger valves. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-18-2012 at 12:53pm
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Im not sure if PCM ever called them "HO", but rather used the term "Pro Boss" to denote the higher hp version. But yes, all Pro Boss motors came with GT40 heads. Brian, I think the 15hp difference is purely marketing. The 2 ratings seemed to be used interchangeably throughout the standard 351w's life (early 70's through late 90's), both in CC's and Waukesha/PCM's literature. Tim, I think Brian's question was what the differences were between the 240 and 255hp "standard" 351w's. I think the answer is "nothing". Obviously the longblocks were slightly different between the standard and Pro Boss engines, most notably the GT40 heads (which youre correct had slightly larger valves than the standard E7's). The same goes for the 285hp carb'd ProBoss vs. the "300+hp" TBI and the 310hp GT40. Other than the fuel and intake systems, the engines were the same (same longblock). ------------- |
Posted By: TimSpangler
Date Posted: May-18-2012 at 1:04pm
Gotcha. That's what I get for tring to work and surf the net at the same time. So has anyone used the GT-40P castings? With the different plug angle they look as though they may be a better head for a marine application. I know they were rumored to be a better head than the GT-40. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-18-2012 at 1:15pm
Oh yes, very common upgrade around here- Im surprised you havent heard of them. Ive been running them for 6 years on my '90. Youre correct that the plug angles are a bit better for our upswept manifolds. The smaller chambers and slightly better flow make them a very good, economical head choice when upgrading a Ford. ------------- |
Posted By: TimSpangler
Date Posted: May-18-2012 at 1:21pm
I've heard of them, used to run them on my Mustang back in the day. Very economical replacement for the E7. Wasn't sure if it was the same here. on the auto side, the plug angle was a bit of PITA. I suppose most of the upgrade from the auto side can be used here as well. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-18-2012 at 1:26pm
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I meant heard of them being used on this site, in our Correct Crafts. Very common, and discussed often. Yes, the plug angle that makes them less desireable in Mustangs (often requiring special headers) makes them better for us... better performing, better plug angle, and less desireable for the car guys = cheaper! Yes, nothing inherently different about marine vs. auto heads. Though, brass casting plugs are usually recommended for marine. There are people here who run AFR, Trick Flow and RHS heads in their CC's. ------------- |