97 Sport - Electrical issues - Stereo, AMPs, PP
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Boat Maintenance
Forum Discription: Discuss maintenance of your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25790
Printed Date: November-19-2024 at 1:34am
Topic: 97 Sport - Electrical issues - Stereo, AMPs, PP
Posted By: Keith
Subject: 97 Sport - Electrical issues - Stereo, AMPs, PP
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 4:41pm
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For the first time since knee surgery on 4/10, I got a chance to climb into my new '97 Sport Nautique this weekend. This is the boat I've had a deposit on since late Jan which my Dad drove down to NJ to pick up for me on 4/19. Of course there are lot of things I want to do to and I found some unpleasent surprises. However, my very first goal was to take a listen to killer stereo that came with the boat. I then need to transfer my PP StarGazer and PrecisionStar over to the new boat form the old boat to make the old boat ready to sell. The Sport has a Clarion M475 headunit, two 'Kicker' amps, a 10' woofer under the dash, four speakers in the combing pads and two double cans mounted on the Monster Tower. There is also a wired remote for the radio mounted in the stern. I don't know the ratings of the speakers or amps (although I could probably find out this info). The Sport also came with PP Wake Pro 6.5. It has a one Optima bluetop battery. Here how events unfolded for me this weekend. I first turned on the radio (powereed off the master breaker - key does not have to be on). At first only the four speakers in the boat came on and it was surprisingly quite. Turn it off. Came back later and had the same results with the key in the 'on' position but this time, when I turned the key 'off' (radio still on), the amps must have kicked on as the radio volume went way up. Assuming this was due to low voltage, I put the charger on the battery. Apparently it needed a charge as it started at a strong 6 amps. Monitored the charger and watched it slowly dropping to 4 amps, then 2 amps over a half dozen hours. Left it on overnight and it was down to 0 amps by morning. Truned the key to 'on' and noticed PP was not booting correctly and volt meter on dash reading 10.5 volts. Put the tester on the battery, reads 15 volts??? Disconnected PP and tried to run radio. No errors on headunit but now only sound comes out of the woofer (which I believe is powered by one of the amps). Connected Stargazer PP module and PercisionStar and tried turning the key to 'on'. Both units boot properly but Stargazer system info reveals only 10.5 volts. Checking under the dash with tester, I get between 13 and 13.5 volts at the backs of all guages (including volt guage). Further analysis shows that when I power on the radio, only one of the two amps powers up - still only sound from woofer. Disconned the RCA plugs from behind the head unit that go to amps (I think), no sound from and still no sound through other speakers. On the battery, there are heavy guage connections that I know go to one amp (call it amp1), that then link to the other amp (call it amp2). Disconnet these cables and woofer sounds shuts off but still no sound through other speakers. When connected, amp1 turns on with headunit, amp2 does not. Haven't had a chance to test the volts on PP with the amp wires disconnected from the battery (my next test). I'm very confusted. Here are my specific questions: 1) Why won't the radio play through the speakers? 2) Why do I show 13 volts on the back of the volt guage but only 10.5 on the face (10.5 verified on PP) 3) Why does only one amp turn on with headunit? 4) Why am I seeing over 14 volts at the battery? 5) Is it likely on amp powers the four speakers in the boat and the other amp powers the cans on the tower? 6) How can I operate the radio without either amp (what to start from simple to identify problems). Everything seems screwed up. I will say that under the dash does look pretty clean with very little oxidation and/or corrosion. Lastly, for the life of me I can't find a installation manual for the M475 (a very popular marine radio). I have the user manaual but can't find out exactly what all the connections are in the back. The type of radio in a boat is a first for me. Not even sure I'll use it much but since it's already installed, would be nice to take advantage of it. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you, Keith ------------- Former: /diaries/details.asp?ID=6170" rel="nofollow - 97 Sport Nautique 1994 Ski Nautique 86 Silver Nautique 79 Mustang |
Replies:
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 5:17pm
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Keith, I'll let others get into the other problems but I can help with the battery question. The 14 volts you got from the battery is called a "surface charge". It happens with a freshly charged battery before a load is put on it that will equalize the electrolyte. A equalized battery in good condition will read around 12.6 volts. Regarding all the different readings you are getting, I suggest cleaning up all the connections. BTW, what have you been doing with the site the past couple days. It was down for quite some time yesterday and then it's been running pretty erratic! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: hotboat
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 5:19pm
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Wow hard without seeing it but a couple things to check, on some head units you can turn off the internal amp to keep the heat down so if anyone is familiar with that unit they should be able to help. All amps should hav a lead connected to the head unit in the color of orange or yellow that is marked Remote + to turn them on. Of course check the red incoming main power to each unit as well as grounds. Thats a start ------------- Brian |
Posted By: Randy_in_Ohio
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 5:53pm
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I would check the remote on lead like Brian suggested. I found your owners manual on Crutchfield.com the remote turn on lead in a blue/white wire. http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/020/020M475.PDF" rel="nofollow - http://a248.e.akamai.net/pix.crutchfield.com/Manuals/020/020M475.PDF Also, check any in-line fuses and also the fuses on the amps themselves, one or more of them may be blown. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1602&yrstart=1991&yrend=1995" rel="nofollow - 1993 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 6:04pm
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blue/white wire, great! I have the user's manual which showed me how to turn on/off the internal amp. There are two 40 amp fuses on each amp. Both look good. There are some inline fuses behind the head unit and those look okay as well. I should probably put the test on each side to be sure. FYI - here's the boat. I keeped a few of the specs from the for sale listing on the amps, speakers, etc. http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=6170&sort=&pagenum=1" rel="nofollow - 1997 Sport Nautique Thanks, Keith ------------- Former: /diaries/details.asp?ID=6170" rel="nofollow - 97 Sport Nautique 1994 Ski Nautique 86 Silver Nautique 79 Mustang |
Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 6:13pm
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Randy, I have that manual but didn't notice the 'Specs' page. Thanks. So, would you assume the external amp on (blue/white) would turn on one amp which is connected to the other amp? For more info, I did notice that all the RCA jacks are being used outof the headunit. -Keith ------------- Former: /diaries/details.asp?ID=6170" rel="nofollow - 97 Sport Nautique 1994 Ski Nautique 86 Silver Nautique 79 Mustang |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 6:18pm
Usually the amps have to have some way of switching on and off. They ideally will get their juice directly from the battery (the dedicated wire), and then use some other source signal to switch on and off. A lot of times this signal might come from the radio itself. Or the PO may have rigged a switch somewhere else (one of the aux switches)? He may have set it up so that the tower speakers can be shut off if there are no boarders behind the boat. Also, sometimes people will have the subs get their own amp and the four area speakers have a different amp. You'll never get the radio to work through the speakers if they've been wired to run off the amps. Your head unit at this point is just where the sound information (vs. the sound power) is coming from. It' most likely just sending line level output to the amps. |
Keith wrote:Posted By: hotboat
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 6:20pm
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It can be wired either way, as long as all the remote turn ons touch each other it should all turn on together. How many rcas? 4? 6? ------------- Brian |
Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 6:36pm
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Sorry, rcas???? ------------- Former: /diaries/details.asp?ID=6170" rel="nofollow - 97 Sport Nautique 1994 Ski Nautique 86 Silver Nautique 79 Mustang |
Posted By: hotboat
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 6:42pm
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You said you noticed all the rca jacks are being used behind the head unit, there should be at least 2 going to each amp, you listed 2 amps, how is the sub powered? Internal or external amp? Each unit should have a light that comes on when you get power to them. Btw nice boat ------------- Brian |
Posted By: Randy_in_Ohio
Date Posted: April-30-2012 at 9:35pm
If I were to assume, which I don't like to do  I would think they would have split the blue/white wire to both amps "remote on" terminals. It's hard to tell how they have it wired without looking at it. It would help to know what type of amps are installed (2 channel, 4 channel, 5 channel...) Your HU has three RCA outs. Front, Back and non faded (Sub). The sub amp should be hooked up to the purple set. As for the others, they could of gone a couple different ways with those... Keith, If you want to call me and discus it while your looking at it I'm sure we could figure it out together. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1602&yrstart=1991&yrend=1995" rel="nofollow - 1993 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: May-01-2012 at 1:34am
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Thank you Randy. I won't be able to get under the cover again until Wed. I'm a bit more educated now and know what to look for. I can trace the connections and report back what I find. At that point, I might give you a call Randy. Thanks, Keith ------------- Former: /diaries/details.asp?ID=6170" rel="nofollow - 97 Sport Nautique 1994 Ski Nautique 86 Silver Nautique 79 Mustang |
Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: May-05-2012 at 7:38pm
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Update: Got a chance to crawl under the dash today. Here's the verdict: There are two separate amplifiers. A 2 channel amp (Kicker ZX750)and a 4 channel amp (Kicker KX650.4). The 2 channel amp is connected to the sub woofer - this one is working fine. The 4 channel amp appears to drive the four speakers in the boat and the two double cans on the tower. This amp is not turning on, hence no sound out of those speakers. Directly from the battery there some serious gauge wire going to a 'Kicker' splicer that sends equally heavy gauge wire to both amps. Testing the power where it connects to each amp results in 14V+ on both. There is a Remote Turn On for each amp (Randy you're correct, it's split out of the head unit). With radio off, each shows zero volts. With radio turned on, both go to 13.5v. The 4 channel amp is simply not turning on. No red or green lights. Both amplifiers heave two 40 amp fuses. Both look fine but I switched them out and get the same results - 2 channel amp works, 4 channel amp does not. So, is the 4 channel amp fired? Is there any other explanation why it wouldn't turn on? Thanks, Keith ------------- Former: /diaries/details.asp?ID=6170" rel="nofollow - 97 Sport Nautique 1994 Ski Nautique 86 Silver Nautique 79 Mustang |
Posted By: bkhallpass
Date Posted: May-05-2012 at 8:56pm
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Hmmm. Is there a breaker on that amp? Every time I ever had an issue with mine the breaker has just popped. Just guessing, I'm not the electrical guy, as you know. bkh ------------- Livin' the Dream |
Posted By: TX Foilhead
Date Posted: May-05-2012 at 9:12pm
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Keith, I'm watching and like everyone else it is difficult to figure out without seeing it. Check to see that you have voltage on the cables at each amp, the onboard fuses on the amp should be for internal things and there should be a seperate fuse for each amp on the wire leading to it. The sub amp is probably bridged and the other is could be playing 4 or all 6 of the full range speakers. There could be a bad speaker or connection going to the 4 channel amp causing it to go Ito protect mode. Does anything light up at all on that amp? |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: May-05-2012 at 10:25pm
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Keith 4 X Internal speakers plus 4 X Tower speakers from one 4 channel amp is a big ask. Having two amps one for the internal boat speakers and another for the tower speakers would give better output and sound quality. For simplicity I would probably use the head unit for the internal boat speakers and the amp just for the tower speakers. Depends if you want to keep the tower speakers? You could remove that second 4 channel amp if you are not going to keep them or use it for the internal boat speakers. If the "remote turn on" terminal/connector has voltage to it (>12V smaller wire from radio blue white) and you have 12V at the main power terminal/connector on the amp.(the big heavy power wire) The amp may either have a blown fuse or is fried. Sounds like you have checked the fuses so it is most likely the later fried option  Having both sets of 4 tower and 4 internal speakers from one amp would have been driving that amp very hard and that has caused it's eventual failure. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: TX Foilhead
Date Posted: May-05-2012 at 11:24pm
| That amp should handle a 2 ohm load if the speakers are all 4 ohms and an are properly connected. So the next question is what kind of speakers? Seems that I've seen quite a few lately that are 2 ohm to pull more from the amp and 8 of those would give you 1 ohm at the amp which won't work for long. |
Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: May-07-2012 at 3:34pm
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I was able to find the manuals for both amplifiers and confirmed the one that is working (Kicker KX750.1) is just a sub woofer amp. Which confirms the other 4 channel amp was powering all eight speakers (four internal to the boat and four on the tower). So, what should I be thinking now? Buy a new 4 channel amp for the tower cans (four speakers total) and run the internal speakers of the head unit (with the internal amplifier turned on)? In this scenario, I would re-root the internal boat speakers to the back of the head unit to the wired speaker connections (not using the RCA plugs), correct? Any suggestions on a good, but not to expensive, 4 channel amp to power the double DIY tower cans? Thanks, Keith ------------- Former: /diaries/details.asp?ID=6170" rel="nofollow - 97 Sport Nautique 1994 Ski Nautique 86 Silver Nautique 79 Mustang |
Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: May-07-2012 at 3:40pm
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Forgot to mention I did find one of the speaker wires coming out of the 4 channel amp (the one not powering up) was disconnected. Did not have the correct size allen wrench to reconnect when I was under the dash this weekend. I didn't think anything of it at the time, just figured one speakers just would work until I connected. -Keith ------------- Former: /diaries/details.asp?ID=6170" rel="nofollow - 97 Sport Nautique 1994 Ski Nautique 86 Silver Nautique 79 Mustang |
Posted By: TX Foilhead
Date Posted: May-07-2012 at 4:31pm
| Have you determined if you have power and the turn on signal at the bad amp. I'm sure it doesnt always happen, but I would think the PO would have mentioned it wasn't working when you got the boat. I do understand him not wanting to fix it. Because of that I wouldn't give up on that amp without a little testing with the multimeter and looking for signs that it's in protection mode it those check out good. Always best to figure out what happened so you don't put a new one in a bad situation and have it fail too. |
Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: May-07-2012 at 4:36pm
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Yes, determined with a tester that I have 14+ volts to the amp and when the HU is on, Remote Turn On is postive 13.5 volts. Two 40 amp fuses are fine (swapped just to make sure). No red or green lights at the amp. Nothing. Edit: PO claimed the radio worked fine same week it was picked up. My Dad didn't test the radio during the test drive - he was more focused on the boat's condition and performance. Not happy with the PO for this and a few other reasons. Seeing a trend in his maintance in the boat. Luckily he paid his Nautique dealer do all the engine and trailer maintance. -Keith ------------- Former: /diaries/details.asp?ID=6170" rel="nofollow - 97 Sport Nautique 1994 Ski Nautique 86 Silver Nautique 79 Mustang |
Posted By: Randy_in_Ohio
Date Posted: May-07-2012 at 5:21pm
I agree with Don. That amp is rated for a 2ohm load. We need to know what type of speakers you have, and more specifically, what the ohm rating of these speakers is. Either the load is below 2ohm causing it to go into protection mode, or the Amp is toast. I'm going to guess that the amp is toast. You have power at the amp, the remote power on is 13V, the fuses are good, and your LED on the amp is still not on...  From my experience, even if the ohm's are too low, you will still get sound for a few seconds or at low power until the protection circuit is activated, and this doesn't sound like whats happening here... If you need to get a new amp, you may want to consider a 5 channel, then you could use that two channel to run the tower speakers and run the four 6.5" off the 5 channel as well as the sub. It wouldn't require any extra wiring either, and would provide the best bang to buck IMHO. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1602&yrstart=1991&yrend=1995" rel="nofollow - 1993 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: TX Foilhead
Date Posted: May-07-2012 at 5:29pm
| I like Randy's idea, or Kicker ZXM 350.4 would replace what you have and run all 8 speakers, that should sound better than running some off the head unit. Do check and see what kind of speakers are there and make sure they are 4ohm speakers. If they are less then you may need a different plan. |
Posted By: hotboat
Date Posted: May-07-2012 at 6:19pm
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I have bought reman and scratch and dent from crutchfield with good success and saved some money ------------- Brian |
Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: May-08-2012 at 2:33pm
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Got an email from the PO and he said there's no way the amplifier fried from when he had it to when I got it. He said he had experienced a similar situation (sub woofer working with no other sound) when he got it back from the dealer this spring (Nautique Dealer) and it was a battery connection issue. He didn't elaborate any more but indicated that perhaps the dealer had connected the amplifiers in reverse (ground to positive and visa versa) or connected both the ground and positive (for the amp) to the positive connection on the battery. He claims he got it to work find after the fact. Could this have any impact on the amp? I was also reading through the manual for the amplifier that's not working (KX650.4) and found this: "The ground should be connected to the amplifier first before making any of the other connections ... If you ever need to remove the amp from the vehicle after it has been installed, the ground wire should be the last wire disconnected from the amplifier, just the opposite as when you installed it." I had disconnected the battery while working on the PP install and didn't disconnect or reconnect with with any particular logic. Would this really make a difference? It's been raining this week but I hope to disconnect the amps, let them site of a hour or so disconnected, then reconnect (ground first) to see if that has any effect. It's a long shot but worth it I guess. -Keith ------------- Former: /diaries/details.asp?ID=6170" rel="nofollow - 97 Sport Nautique 1994 Ski Nautique 86 Silver Nautique 79 Mustang |
Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: May-08-2012 at 2:53pm
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Keith, I would do more diagnostics before dropping money on a new unit. How hard would it be to directly wire the power,right from the battery (or a good known hot source) to the unit, sidetracking any questionable connections, routing, switches, fuses, plus hooking up a "test" speaker directly at the unit to rule out bad connections/speakers. ------------- _____________ “So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
Posted By: Randy_in_Ohio
Date Posted: May-08-2012 at 4:20pm
I feel this is more of a safety precaution than anything else. I doubt that leaving it disconnected from the battery for an hour or so will change anything either. From what you said earlier Keith it sounds like you have a distribution block for the power and that you are getting ~14V at the Amp. Is there a distribution block for the ground as well? We may have a bad ground wire connection. I would do what Larry just recommended. Or maybe you could take the power and ground leads from the working amp and swap them to the non-working amp if they will reach... Remove all but one or two speakers from the load side of the amp too. Also, take a look at the end of the amp with the power/ground connections and fuses, their should be two LED's one is labeled "power" and one is labeled "protection". The power LED should be on and the protection LED should be off when the amp has power to it.  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1602&yrstart=1991&yrend=1995" rel="nofollow - 1993 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: May-21-2012 at 2:00am
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Okay guys, got a chance to take a good look at the boat this weekend. The amp seems shot. Neither light indicator turns on (not power or protection). Check the power to the unit, all good. Checked the REM with Head Unit on, + 13V. Disconnected REM and jumped it to +12V feeding main unit, still no light. I pulled the amp out of the boat and took the cover off. Looks like this automotive amp has seen to much moisture. No obvious problem but you can see moisture staining on the board. I recheck the fuses and they are fine. Nothing more to really check. I confirmed that all eight speakers (four in the boat and four on the tower) are 4 ohms. So what is a good (but not the best) marine amp I can get to power these speakers. I don't need to blast out the lake, just need to listen to some tunes in the boat and maybe while surfing. Thanks guys, -Keith ------------- Former: /diaries/details.asp?ID=6170" rel="nofollow - 97 Sport Nautique 1994 Ski Nautique 86 Silver Nautique 79 Mustang |
Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: May-21-2012 at 2:28am
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Beside the Kicker ZXM 350.4, what about the Boss MR1000 or MR1200PA? ------------- Former: /diaries/details.asp?ID=6170" rel="nofollow - 97 Sport Nautique 1994 Ski Nautique 86 Silver Nautique 79 Mustang |
Posted By: Polar Express
Date Posted: May-28-2012 at 12:07pm
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well, I've bought stuff from Crutchfield before, and i've bought stuff from Amazon.com before. I purchased some marine grade equipment from amazon for a snowmobile trailer (ex wife wanted to turn the sled trailer into a party pad...  )I think that was alpine stuff, super nice. i'll double check. Last year, when I got my boat, it only had a stock tape deck (96 SNOB) I got a smokin deal on a PYLE marine amp, so far, been happy with it in the boat. And, when I got my stuff for my truck from Crutchfield, (more complicated system) their tech help was incredible. Just my experience... PE ------------- 1996 Sport Nautique This is America, if you don't like it, go conquer another country, and start your own. I'll keep my God, my guns and my freedom, Barry can keep his 'change' |
Posted By: MartyMabe
Date Posted: May-28-2012 at 12:27pm
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Where is Joe In Everywhere ? He's usually on a problem like this by now. Keith, give him a call-- at least he's the closet CCFan to you-- knowing him he might be in your back-yard or next-door partying! He hooked me up on my Amps. Him being the closet to you- I'm sure he has another Amp with your name on it sitting on his bench right now  ------------- 66 Skylark http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5041" rel="nofollow - 93 SN If you're not living in NC, you're just camping out! |
Posted By: ultrarunner
Date Posted: May-29-2012 at 12:42am
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I suppose it's too much to ask if you have a basic wiring diagram of what is wired re: this stereo system. Sounds like a great fall project to fix. In the mean time, go ski! In the mean time, while you're not skiing, graph it out for us so we can look at that schematic.... That might help some of the electronic gurus... |
Posted By: Keith
Date Posted: May-30-2012 at 1:52am
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Update: The Kicker amp, which was an automotive amp, was dead. I opened it up and found moisture damage inside. The good news is I reached out to the previous owner and he agreed to pay for a replacement. I picked up a Clarion Marine NX3410 for a pretty good deal. This amp is rated for 2 ohms (i.e. two 4 ohm speakers per channel). After speaking to several Clarion authorized resellers, I'm confident this amp will work good for my needs. I know there are better options out there but this solution didn't cost me anything and the stereo sounds dam good. Thanks for all your help guys. -Keith ------------- Former: /diaries/details.asp?ID=6170" rel="nofollow - 97 Sport Nautique 1994 Ski Nautique 86 Silver Nautique 79 Mustang |