Obama's Amnesty Move!!
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Printed Date: January-13-2025 at 2:55am
Topic: Obama's Amnesty Move!!
Posted By: davidg
Subject: Obama's Amnesty Move!!
Date Posted: June-16-2012 at 12:37pm
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Any opinions on Obama's move yesterday to grant "temporary" amnesty and to not deport young illegal aliens who came here as children? Not saying this isn't an issue that has to be dealt with, but, I see it as a purely political move to win votes. Don't we have a congress to work through for this type of issue? You know....the peoples representatives that are supposed to pass laws. |
Replies:
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-17-2012 at 12:39am
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we just added 700,000 legal young workers to the pool when teenage unemployment is 15% and black teenage unemployment is 50%. That should help. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: harddock
Date Posted: June-17-2012 at 10:52am
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700,000 potential votes!!!! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4487" rel="nofollow - 1998 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-17-2012 at 1:15pm
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Catch, release, vote program. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: ononewheel
Date Posted: June-17-2012 at 8:44pm
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Students? Yikes, smart kids. Get a grip, are you afraid of something? I smell hypocrisy again, who would have thought. On the other hand, Mit's got it figured out huhh? By the way what is mits plan, on anything? ( without referring me to old same as Bush ideas) Continue betting against the US for the sake of an election, who would shake up the Etch A Sketch, and redraw himself as Bush? Oh, f, really? To answer your question, no, we don't have a congress to work this out. I even think there is a "jobs" bill sitting there. Never been debated really and it would put lots of folks to work, and we'd see the rewards instantly. What about Bill Kristols comments? Aren't you scared to think outside the FOX? The right thing to do is the right thing. Are you saying youd rather do the wrong thing because you have an illusion it is "campaign" promise? Or are you going to use the recent teenage unemployment results as evidence? ------------- If we let the professionals do everything it takes all the fun out of youtube |
Posted By: harddock
Date Posted: June-17-2012 at 10:08pm
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You know since you wanna be all fair and all someone mentioned the other day that taxes pay for all government services, Fire police etc. If that is the case why should it cost rich people more for these services? Do they get superior service? Does a better fire dept show up to their house in and emergency? If a rich person calls the cops does the best cops show up? Do the roads and bridges they drive on have a better lane? Why not? They paid more, they should get more. So you want amnesty because some one snuck in here and brought a child or even had one after they got here. Europeans wanting to come here need to be sponsored, wait 10- 20 years for their green card and get no special treatment. I'm talking people from England, or Italy, or Germany. Why are Hispanics so much more priviledged? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4487" rel="nofollow - 1998 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: ononewheel
Date Posted: June-17-2012 at 10:59pm
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The rich really do get/use more of the services you describe, so yeah pay more for it. They do get better services too, just compare the local police station in a rich/poor town, or the school, better yet the fire dept. You'll know which communities have a good support system, (tax base) Most Europeans can get in to the US pretty easily, beside comparing the two is absurd. Europeans are not flocking here, Latinos are already here. Wanna Texas style round up? ------------- If we let the professionals do everything it takes all the fun out of youtube |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 12:14am
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Seth, My experience (20 years 911 responses) is that the lower the income of any given group (race has almost nothing to do with it) the more community services they consume. The rich do not use food stamps, they do not call ambulances for tooth aches and eye infections. They do not collect rent subsidies or welfare, they do not get government purchased insurance unless they are the rich that work for the government. They don't need to use buses, but are happy to take a subsides ride. They commit fewer violent crimes, are incarcerated less, and are the only ones that seem to get billed for police response like when their alarms go off falsely. I don't see the poor ever getting billed for a response. Just where do you see them using more government? They pay nearly all income taxes, and most property taxes and tons of sales tax as compared individually because they consume more. where do you see them using services out of proportion to what they pay? ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 1:35am
Why don't we just bend the laws and let only the "pretty" Russian mail order brides stay in the country who are here illegally now. The ugly ones have to go back. But, wait, the law doesn't discriminate. Isn't she blind? Smart, cute, playing on the play grounds, doesn't matter. The law....is the law. Even your friend John B. told us that a week or so back if I remember correctly. I would sure like to get his opinion on this. Is it now okay to be selective as to which laws we "bend" a little? Just like Obama himself said a year or so ago....."I am one man, and we have laws in this country, and I just can't break the laws to give you Dreamers what you want". Apparently the fact we are now in an election year, and the "HOPEY, CHANGEY" thing isn't working so well this time and O-Blame-O is really sweating. Uh, by the by, ever since the BIG Walker win in Wisconsin, I do believe O-Blame-O is a couple of points behind Romney in your state. Thank you Wisconsin!! He should be worried. He has really screwed this country up, and "most" people know it. He just goes around looking for voting blocks to give "stuff" to win their vote. War on women....contraceptives; war on the poor....more foodstamps and "investments"; hispanics....amnesty; teachers/police/firemen....more government jobs so the union dues come back to the Democratic party, etc, etc, etc. AND, by the by, thank god Congress isn't going along with what Obama wants. He just wants to raise the taxes on the wealthy who now pay most of the taxes in this country, and redistribute, er, uhm, I mean "invest" it in the unions, and his cronies. Congress wasn't created to rubber stamp what an Imperial president wants to do. So, I say, Congress, don't give this guy anything! He will just put us deeper in debt, and divide the country even more than he has already. I thought he was going to bring the country together....."We are not a blue state, we are not a red state....we are the United States". R-I-G-H-T!!!!! |
ononewheel wrote:Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 2:52am
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Seth, Are you saying the ends justifies the means? What happens when we get a president that advocates shooting anyone crossing the boarder? Do you want him (or her) to have that kind of power without congressional approval? I think it should be very hard to get anything through congress. Change for change sake is not a good policy. We don't need (and can no longer afford) failed experiments. We need sound, thought through, and well debated policy. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: ononewheel
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 4:02am
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Oh, dang... I know you want it impossible to get anything trrough congress.... Except; Abortion bills Lower taxes for the rich Voter ID This is a "failed experiment", give up the stalling and filabustering, and get *************** done. Betting against the US, Vote Republican! ------------- If we let the professionals do everything it takes all the fun out of youtube |
Posted By: ononewheel
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 4:06am
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So you still think it is ok for Romneys votes/cash to come from Sheldon Adleson? Is that cool with ya? Jon McCain says it might be a little off base since most casino cash flows in from Macau, or some foreign island that is buying your canidate or election. ------------- If we let the professionals do everything it takes all the fun out of youtube |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 4:30am
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Where do you get this crap? You want to talk Sheldon Adelson, but ignore George Soros? I am not betting against the US. I am against the guy who said he wanted to fundamentally change The US and has done everything in his power (and a few things beyond his power) to do just that. The rules of "experiment " were spelled out in our constitution, and the "experiment " fails a little more every time we stray further from it. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: ononewheel
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 4:36am
Why don't we just bend the laws and let only the "pretty" Russian mail order brides stay in the country who are here illegally now. The ugly ones have to go back. But, wait, the law doesn't discriminate. Isn't she blind? Smart, cute, playing on the play grounds, doesn't matter. The law....is the law. Even your friend John B. told us that a week or so back if I remember correctly. I would sure like to get his opinion on this. Is it now okay to be selective as to which laws we "bend" a little? Just like Obama himself said a year or so ago....."I am one man, and we have laws in this country, and I just can't break the laws to give you Dreamers what you want". Apparently the fact we are now in an election year, and the "HOPEY, CHANGEY" thing isn't working so well this time and O-Blame-O is really sweating. Uh, by the by, ever since the BIG Walker win in Wisconsin, I do believe O-Blame-O is a couple of points behind Romney in your state. Thank you Wisconsin!! He should be worried. He has really screwed this country up, and "most" people know it. He just goes around looking for voting blocks to give "stuff" to win their vote. War on women....contraceptives; war on the poor....more foodstamps and "investments"; hispanics....amnesty; teachers/police/firemen....more government jobs so the union dues come back to the Democratic party, etc, etc, etc. AND, by the by, thank god Congress isn't going along with what Obama wants. He just wants to raise the taxes on the wealthy who now pay most of the taxes in this country, and redistribute, er, uhm, I mean "invest" it in the unions, and his cronies. Congress wasn't created to rubber stamp what an Imperial president wants to do. So, I say, Congress, don't give this guy anything! He will just put us deeper in debt, and divide the country even more than he has already. I thought he was going to bring the country together....."We are not a blue state, we are not a red state....we are the United States". R-I-G-H-T!!!!! [/QUOTE] Give up the Walker drama. You have no clue, and arguing with you is so boring. Here one last time; - Walkers "big win" might not be so glorious when you consider his party also lost the leg. that night too.Well, Repubs are requesting a recount. What are you gloating for? ((( And because you are more interested in gloating, and I am not sure you understand, that means Wlaker is going to have a tough time ramming anything through.)))) - From what I see Walker will be doing the perp walk pretty quick. Hurry Romney jump on the Walker bus, please! Walker is Jon Doe. - Walker has around 460 days left, and doubt the job numbers are going to help him by then. - Have we NO police men, women here? Or firefighters? Or teachers on here. Make me wanna puke, you put the middle class under the bus, in a situation you clearly have shown you care only enough about to "stir the pot". - Couple of points on Obama you say? So walker bought those points, and its still ok with you? ------------- If we let the professionals do everything it takes all the fun out of youtube |
Posted By: ononewheel
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 4:48am
Joe Arpio, or however you spell the wackos name form Arizona. Shooting anyone crossing the border, how much did he make for FOX last year? ------------- If we let the professionals do everything it takes all the fun out of youtube |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 4:58am
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Back to the topic at hand Seth, Supply and Demand. How does adding 700,000 more workers to 8.2% unemployment "Help" the middle class. Increase supply and you reduce the price people will pay. Maybe Obama should focus on building an economy that can support more workers rather than buying votes with bad policy. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: ononewheel
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 5:21am
Voting for the party that refuses to do anything, is like doing nothing.The POTUS has a jobs bill, come on show me the Romney plan. Congress, act. A spade is a spade. Whatever, one of us is wearing really dark glasses, and we'd argue about who that is too. Soros/Adlseson, does it really matter? ***************...we need all that cash outta there. That cash isn't looking out for you, me, or the US, it is looking out for whomever has the most, and thus wins. People need to win. Since when does money equal votes? ------------- If we let the professionals do everything it takes all the fun out of youtube |
Posted By: ononewheel
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 5:30am
Yeah, pass the Jobs bill. Where the heck you been. That will get lots of jobs flowing, and if the republicans don't like part of it, then debate it, agree to something, pass it and lets see the results. What is your argument against it? Blah...blah...Government jobs I know. Your tax cuts have not done it. Man, the 700,000 are ALREADY here. Strap up the Gestapo boots. Buy votes with bad policy, you kill me.... ------------- If we let the professionals do everything it takes all the fun out of youtube |
Posted By: ononewheel
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 6:45am
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb8qG76L9jE&feature=player_embedded" rel="nofollow - Firedept priviati For the Daves. ------------- If we let the professionals do everything it takes all the fun out of youtube |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 10:02am
Another nice obscure reference Stick to the topic. How does adding 700,000 young workers to an economy with 8.2 percent unemployment help drive up the standard of living in the middle class. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: harddock
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 10:41am
 ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4487" rel="nofollow - 1998 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 11:28am
Give up the Walker drama. You have no clue, and arguing with you is so boring. Here one last time; - Walkers "big win" might not be so glorious when you consider his party also lost the leg. that night too.Well, Repubs are requesting a recount. What are you gloating for? ((( And because you are more interested in gloating, and I am not sure you understand, that means Wlaker is going to have a tough time ramming anything through.)))) A WIN IS A WIN! DEAL WITH IT. YES, THEY LOST JUST ONE OF THE RECALLS, AND NO LONGER HAVE CONTROL OF THE SENATE. SO, IT WILL BE A LITTLE TOUGHER TO GET THINGS DONE. BUT, THE PEOPLE OF WISCONSIN HAVE SPOKEN, AND THEY LIKE THE DIRECTION WALKER IS TAKING THE STATE. - From what I see Walker will be doing the perp walk pretty quick. Hurry Romney jump on the Walker bus, please! Walker is Jon Doe. LET IT GO LOUIE! LET IT GO! - Walker has around 460 days left, and doubt the job numbers are going to help him by then. NOT SURE ABOUT THE JOB NUMBERS TWO YEARS FROM NOW, BUT, I KNOW HIS POLICIES ARE WORKING "TODAY"!! - Have we NO police men, women here? Or firefighters? Or teachers on here. Make me wanna puke, you put the middle class under the bus, in a situation you clearly have shown you care only enough about to "stir the pot". TEACHERS, COPS, AND FIREFIGHTERS ARE NO LONGER THE MIDDLE CLASS. THEY GET PENSIONS AND PAY PACKAGES THE MIDDLE CLASS WOULD LOVE TO GET. THE PUBLIC HAS AWOKEN TO THE PERKS YOUR BELOVED "MIDDLE CLASS" HAS MANAGED TO WRANGLE FROM THE REAL MIDDLE CLASS OVER THE PAST 30 OR 40 YEARS. NOTHING AGAINST COPS, TEACHERS OR FIREFIGHTERS AT ALL. THEY JUST NEED TO COME BACK TO REALITY, AND STOP SITTING ON THE SAME SIDE OF THE NEGOTIATING TABLE AS THE DEMOCRATS THEY SUPPORT. - Couple of points on Obama you say? So walker bought those points, and its still ok with you? OOW, YOU GET SO CROTCHETY WHEN THE REPUBLICANS BEAT YOU AT YOUR OWN GAME. I WILL SEE YOU ONE GEORGE SOROS, AND RAISE YOU ONE SHELDON ADELSON. TOO BAD THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE/MONEY SUPPORTING THE CONSERVATIVE SIDE THAT THE "PROGRESSIVE" SIDE. [/QUOTE] |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 11:56am
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Boring... No talk of solutions based in reality here... reality is the 700,000 wont add to the labor supply.. they already have jobs- they just don't have a social security number so they can't pay taxes. In reality special interest money (business, farmers, the army, etc) keeps them from actually being deported because the people behind the money need the cheap labor.. and dont want them registered because then they can compete for jobs with real wages and benefits that the businesses that currently employ them can't afford to pay them. Can't discuss real solutions when you dont even acknowledge the reality of the situation. But you can be real easy to control. As for rich people not using services... whose land and money do you think it is that the military and police are there to protect? Whose employees and goods are flowing over those roads? Whose employees do we pay to educate and keep healthy? Why waste the energy to get yourself fired up over this stuff if you have no interest in finding fact based solutions? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 12:19pm
Thanks for joining in on such a boring discussion...... Well, I will acknowledge there is a real problem here that needs to be addressed. Why don't we get the borders sealed first, and then deal with the people that are here in a sensible, and sensitive way that takes families into account. However, I don't think that the President not enforcing laws that are on the books is the way to do it. Let's do it through Congress...the way laws are supposed to be passed in this country. Let's see what Marco Rubio has in the works. I think some sort of worker permit system that would identify who is already here would be a good start. Then, we can decide on the policy that will be acceptable to both parties, and not just the President based on his need for votes. But, get the border sealed so we don't have to keep dealing with this issue decade after decade. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 12:37pm
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Obama continues to do more to close our borders and do it more successfully than his predecesor or any republican ever did. They like to talk tough but when the rubber meets the road they didnt do it, and like Romney says talk is cheap. Those are the facts. how is congress going to do something about it when we wont on either side elect people willing to acknowledge reality? No republican who does anything to either register or deport illegal aliens will ever be reelected. They need to talk tough to secure the "they took our jobs" vote but they need to ensure a steady supply of cheap labor to get the business money that they need to compete in the post citizens united world. so they will do what you are doing which is complain about the president doing something while maintaining the status quo. They will do that until we all grow up and accept reality. Not that the democrats are any better.. too many of them depend on the same source of money. Anything they do propose we are told is just them trying to get more votes and is dead on arrival in the house. Money always votes to maintain the status quo... why wouldnt it the status quo works for them and any change might not work quite as well. Leadership requires vision to see that change might work for everybody... People who need to buy elections will always favor ways to keep down the number of voters.. they are cheaper to buy that way.. maximum return for minimum investment. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: harddock
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 12:55pm
You are contradicting yourself. Traditionally the democrats raise and spend much more that the republicans. Now because the hope and change gimmick is being seen through as a sham and more money is headed towards the republicans you think they are buying elections. Finnaly money is going to make this a fair fight and you dems don't like to accept fair play. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4487" rel="nofollow - 1998 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: TimSpangler
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 1:09pm
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I say let them stay. Lets charge them back taxes for the years that they have been working illegally then make there employer pay for there part of the back taxes. If they don't like it, then they can got back across the border, and we can still make the employers pay there part. But we all know that wont ever happen. Ever since I was young (in middle school) I always wondered why there wasn't a dual presidency? Why not have a Dem and Rep serving together? Or a Dem Pres and Rep Vice? or vise-versa? Why can't we have a balanced government instead of the parties fighting for control? How about doing away with the party system all together, aren't we 1 nation? Why do we need 2+ parties? If they spent that energy trying to make the US a better place instead of bickering about who did what, we may be in a better place right now. I'm don't typically get involved in political conversations, but when I look a my paycheck each month and see 1/3 going to the government (in some form or another) and about $300 going to insurance that doesn't cover anything, I start to get a bit disturbed, and I blame the "Government" both Rep and Dem together. Let's solve the problems and stop blaming each other for causing them. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 2:21pm
You are the one that said it is the republicans trying to buy the elections... that didnt come out of my mouth or fingers. Money doesnt care whether there is a D or R next to the name, as long as the return on investment is there. If you are not scared about one person spending 1000 times the average american workers salary on one election and the effects that has on democracy- just because you think they support your side then we come from two drastically different view points. Yes unions spend some money in elections.. they also represented millions of members.. I didnt mind so much, just like I dont mind the NRA spending a bunch of money because they represent millions of members. The big joke on this issue is the fake talking point that Obama should let congress do its work... 2 years ago the house passed the dream act to take care of this exact issue. The minority in the senate killed it for either nefarious or childish reasons... either way they were working against the will of those elected by the majority of the population to represent them in government. Now Obama is goint to make them pay for apply and pay for a permit good for 2 years.. to allow them to work and pay taxes. No citizenship, no ammnesty... instead of paying to incarcerate them we are going to put them on the books and have them pay thier share. Boring... it is still a non solution.. better than nothing but he should have done it 2 years ago when congress refused to... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-18-2012 at 10:36pm
Joe, to join a conversation with this statement is arrogant and rude. "You pedestrians booooore me. Now let me enlighten you with my brilliance". I have seen you do so much better. By the way we pay to keep government employees and welfare recipients healthy, private industry pays for its own. We pay to protect land owned ,rented and Occupied alike. We pay to protect goods on the high sees to the benefit of businesses and consumers. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 12:03pm
OOW....Not that it matters, but, I forgot to mention that even though the Republicans lost the legislature, it is pretty much meaningless. The Senate is not in session now. New elections will be held in November, and the new Senate will then convene in January. So, its purely symbolic for now unless a special session is convened. Just wanted to make sure I provided accurate information. I know you guys are sticklers for accuracy 
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Posted By: Hansel
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 12:49pm
Yes, and part of the reason (it is my understanding) that a Democratic majority in the senate may be so fleeting is due to the aggressive redistricting by Republicans shifting the balance in their favor. Sadly just more of what I've come to expect from the "small government" Republicans that "run" this state. |
Posted By: harddock
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 2:04pm
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Joe, I never said the republicans were trying to buy an election. I did say that that is a democrat way of doing business and finnally the republicans are raising money to combat this. Yes, that doesn't make it right but some times you need to set a fire to fight a fire. Go back to the last election and recount the record setting amounts Team Obama were spending. They were poised to do it again but this time republicans are ready for them. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4487" rel="nofollow - 1998 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: ononewheel
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 2:59pm
Got to admit, Boring, is an accurate description. Nothing accomplished. Posting a topic on Obamas move, and not including the facts, which Joe provided, is not only boring, but lame too. Same topics, or talking points, posted by a hardcore righty, who doesn't care that what the facts are or the same parties recent support, yeah, boring....I already have 24 hour Fox available. If that is all you gained and commented from reading Joes post, better re-read it. Are you so diluted, you cannot even agree to the money in politics issue with no regard to which side you stand with? ------------- If we let the professionals do everything it takes all the fun out of youtube |
Posted By: ononewheel
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 3:05pm
Interestingly enough, you bring up a valid point. Mr. VanWanarrd, requested a recount over 824 votes. He pays $654 for the recount and the county pays the remainder. Yeh, good point. How much will that cost for the count? Wait, a republican wasting the money too? Your right it doesn't matter. Now what were you trying to prove? Your backing the wasteful spender? Or you were saying how much this helps Walker? ------------- If we let the professionals do everything it takes all the fun out of youtube |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 4:13pm
Seth, First that was another distraction from the topic at hand which is immigration. I don't need to re-read it, I read it the first time, big shock, there is money in politics, boring, I was just polite enough to let it slide since others seemed interested in it. But if I must comment, six months ago talk was that Obama had a billion dollar war chest to spend on an easy defeat of Mr Romney. And I heard no complaints from your side about money in politics, nor did you hear any from me, but suddenly Obama has angered and scared enough conservatives to bring donations out of the wood work, and Romney is leading in the polls, and it is now a big issue with the democrats. Still no complaints from me. It is how the system works, My opinion does not change with who is winning or with who's side I am on. Fact is to their credit in the past democrats have played the game better on a consistent basis. I am happy to see more participation on "my" side. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 4:29pm
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Seth, You do realize that this is a multimillion dollar economic stimulus package putting money in to local economies being funded entirely by a 1%er, right? ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 4:33pm
Joe, where do you get this information? Seems to me in an economy with a 8.25 unemployment rate, 15% real unemployment, and higher rates among minorities and teens, that to have 100% employment in this group is highly unlikely. Also by making them Legal they can compete for a whole different class of jobs, specifically those worked by the middle class and their teenage children. Again how does this raise up the middle class? ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 5:03pm
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The silly billion dollar war chest talk came from Karl Rove and has been perpetrated through parrots as a fact by people that now include yourself to get people wound up enough so that they wouldnt mind the fact that 12 to 15 people decided the republican nomination and are going to try and do the same for the general election. It was never reality. McCain got spanked in spending... nobody donated because he had no chance whatsoever of winning. Whether you are left right or purple the party of the sitting president loses when he has plunged a country from surplus to massive debt, started but not finished multiple wars, screwed up the response to a massive oil spill, and has broken the global finacial system and send the economy into free fall. Nobody ponies up to back a loser... it is just throwing good money after bad. All that being said approx 50% of obamas money came from those donating 20 or less and 50% of mccains money came from those donating 2300 or more. Obama simply had an order of magnitude higher amount of donors.. that there is democracy in my mind... whereas having 10 times as much money from 1/10th the donors is oligarchy. But there I go trying to harken back to the time when our election law was based on one that was a bipartisan bill approved by congress called McCain-Feingold... not one rammed through the supreme court by activist judges overturning a hundred years of precedent to declare a corporation a person and its money speach. Btw the last election was the mid term election and it was won by big money plain and simple. I heard the same commerical about being nancy pelosi's best friend hundreds of times in multiple states with 10 different representatives names filled in, and people fell for it and the candidates that were bought did what they were paid to do... get into office and protect the status quo by ensuring nothing at all made it through the house for the last year and half. I am bored and tired of hearing easily debunkable talking points spit out off the type writers of both sides each evening and then presented by the media as news or at least one side of the story, and then further parroted out on every website on the internet as fact.. especially when it is done on sites that have nothing to do with politics, immigration, etc etc, sites like my favorite boating forum. If it comes off as being directed at one party well that might be because karl rove invented it and is frankly better at it. It is the type of crap that is destroying the greatest country in the history of the world by ensuring we dont end up with one single moderate or independant member of either party in the halls of congress, I would rather it not destroy my favorite boating site as well. 60% of the people in the country agree with obamas move here, if making most of the people in the country happy is simply a cheap move to garner votes... isnt that what democracy is all about- our elected leaders doing what we want as a group and not being bought out by special interests to go against us? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 5:22pm
It raises up the middle class by giving 700000 people a chance to enter it. In case you are behind on the times our net immigration from mexico is zero at this point. Asians are entering the country at a greater rate than latinos and the asians arent leaving. Those latinos that are here that arent working generally leave. Most latino's here work, and in my experience work hard. More importantly the particular group of people we are talking about (those who came as children) tax payers have already paid to educate. Without the ability for them to pay taxes by working legally they cannot possibly repay the investment you and I have made in them. The economy is not a limited and finite resource, they didnt take your job or lower your pay, more people working and producing more efficiently is the definition of growth. It is what makes america great, if some of those 700000 happen to end up making more than average then they will be net consumers of labor that create the demand that drives additional jobs. If all forced to work in low paying jobs then they are net suppliers of labor and do not create additional job growth... although they do still add to the overall size of the economy. Would you rather compete for a job with a latino who is on the books one that isn't? The one that isn't is going to be working a lot cheaper and you are going to be more expensive to hire because you are paying not only your share of taxes but thiers too. Set up a fair marketplace and then lets see who wins, that is the way it worked for generations upon generations of americans. That is the only exceptional thing about america, the land of opportunity where it doesnt matter who you are just what you can make of yourself. At least thats the way it was... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: harddock
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 6:20pm
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Our net Mexican immigration today is zero, and I heard today Obama is taking credit for this because of the bad economy. Not my words, his. As for Karl Rove, maybe he had something to do with Bush getting funded but the democrats popularizing buying elections goes back to Joe Kennedy and problably before him. Whenever you site Fox, and its people just remember MSNBC people all voice their opinions that some take as fact. CNN are no better and neither is CBS, NBC, and folks @ ABC. News radio is a whole other propaganda machine as are the news papers. Every story has some elements that are on and some that are off. I resevre the right to debate these issues here, on a lighthearted just sayin tone. If it is going the route of namecalling or badgering a member because of his views I do not wish to play anymore. Both parties can spar here as well as anywhere else, winner decided Nov 4 2012 and a new game begins. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4487" rel="nofollow - 1998 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: ononewheel
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 6:51pm
I want my vote to count, sadly I haven't got 100 mil to pay for it. ------------- If we let the professionals do everything it takes all the fun out of youtube |
Posted By: ononewheel
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 6:55pm
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No, no, Obama should have waited for congress..... Or debate it a little more, another 10 years, let's not do anything until November..... The right thing to do was done, now move along, will of the people. ------------- If we let the professionals do everything it takes all the fun out of youtube |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 7:10pm
Votes are free, the guy with a billion gets one, or the guy who's broke gets one, some dead guys get one. In my state you don't even need an ID, Convicted felons even get one freebie, just say I did not know and there are no charges, over 2000 got away with that in 2010 in Minnesota(with a Governor race that was decided by... a few thousand votes. Influence however will cost some money, either your own or collectively from your union. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 7:15pm
No the will of a guy who wants to get re-elected was done. Right or wrong it was done the wrong way, and some day the shoe will be on the republican foot and you will speak differently. By the way the will of the people was 60+% against Obama care when that little offense against the constitution was done and we were told elections have consequences. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 7:28pm
Wow, First off moving people from the lower class raises up the lower class, it does not raise the middle, I dont know how anything else can be stated with a strait face. Second we have 2% growth which is considered stagnant. The left is quick to point out the rich are getting richer, which has to come from somewhere. So I would argue that the middle classes resources are currently very finite and diminishing. so again how can we add 700,000 to the middle class with finite resources and "raise the middle class? Ask any roofer, meat packer, or hospitality worker if they have seen any jobs taken by Hispanics, and ask how that has affected their ability to participate in the middle class. What will happen in reality? Most Hispanics that want to work will not sign up, they will take their new legitamacy as a group, no need to profile them if they can be legal. But why give up the advantage of being lawless and taxless? Why not do business as usually and enjoy the leg up on the competition. Those that do not want to work will sign up and take full advantage of welfare and free medical care, and since we know the rich don't pay taxes guess who is going to pay for that? I am not that visionary, but I can see this train coming a mile away. Now again how does this raise up the middle class? ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 7:43pm
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Dave your logic now officially goes nowhere. By your logic nobody would pay taxes, all people including your self would choose to work a construction job or a meat packer job under the table. Unless of course it is your theory that Latinos themselves are lazy and inferior and don't like to work Which not only would be ignorant and stupid it not take into account the fact that people in general who immigrate from their country are usually more ambitious than those that would stay behind None of this has anything to do with free healthcare which we don't have in this country or even welfare which depending on which state you're in you may or may not get whether your illegal or not it is really nothing that anybody's going to move from Mexico Puerto Rico or anyplace else to live on The rest is economics which I can't teach over the Internet ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 9:57pm
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[QUOTE=JoeinNY] Unless of course it is your theory that Latinos themselves are lazy and inferior and don't like to work /QUOTE] Joe, I know you do not like it when people perpetrate mus-truths and yet you try to pin this on me? I have never made or insinuated such. If that is your view shame on you but do not put those words in my mouth. I find the average immigrant worker to have work ethics far superior to the average government employee.In many ways they embody the American dream and spirit better than most Americans. The only knock I have against the Hispanic transplants is there tendency towards lawlessness. They often have have a complete disregard for or sovereignty, immigration laws, traffic laws and their drug cartels have a very violent streak which we are allowing them to export to our country through are legislators willingness to ignore our borders, and our law enforcements willingness to give them weapons. As for why would they work under the table, that is a long discussion. but it is easy to do in the trades they dominate, they are used to it, to do otherwise involves change which people hate. Other reasons; competitive advantage due to low costs, IRS, EPA, OSHA, Department of Revenue, sales and use permits, business registration fees, unemployment insurance, workers comp, accounting fees, corporation filings, withholding's, liability insurance. The question is why does anyone do it legally? Why do I do it legally? ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: ononewheel
Date Posted: June-19-2012 at 10:13pm
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Dave, If you have no problem other than the "tendency" for lawlessness of Hispanic, err Mexican people, I gotta tell you that just isn't true. Really man, it just isn't. Someone from Mexico has no more of a violent nature than a Swede. If you really have this as your objection to Latinos and Obamas decision, you needn't worry, this does not include the felons and law breakers. ------------- If we let the professionals do everything it takes all the fun out of youtube |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-20-2012 at 2:52am
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So your assessment is that "they" have inferior morals and a tendency towards lawlessness because rather than watch their children starve they do something about it and defy a law that has no real relation to American values or Judeo Christian principles. Curse their desire to provide a better life for their kids than they had I didn't know how the average American could relate to that. You get farther towards crazytown when you assume they do the jobs they do because they are somehow genetically predisposed to them rather than because they are the only ones open to them. These are people no different than you... Except perhaps in the luck of their birthplace. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: June-20-2012 at 3:15am
I know, ain't it great! You will thank the them 10 years from now when Wisconsin has the resources to do the IMPORTANT things that need to be done in the state. Not building some silly-assed high speed rail system between Milwaukee and Madison, or some crazy trolley that runs in a circle in downtown Milwaukee 
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Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-20-2012 at 3:21am
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Joe, When did I say "they" (which I can say because I am referring to a specific sub group and it is easier that typing Hispanic or illegal alien or undocumented worker or citizenship challenged over and over again) do jobs that they are genetically predisposed too? Holy crap. I have observed that "they" tend to be grouped in certain professions that are known to be compatible with an illegal status. I said they have a tendency towards lawlessness, if they are here illegally then they have broken the laws of our country which leads to a tangled web of other issues often times legal ones. They left a corrupt system looking for something better, I get that, but that does not mean someone can violate another nations sovereignty, unless of course you know that nation looks the other way when you do it. We have immigration policy for a reason. We have systems in place to facilitate that policy that everyone else in the world has to follow. You want to believe that I hate this group, but that is not the case. I don't like the United States being out of control with regards to who enters our country, and I don't like politicians that swear an oath to uphold our Constitution and then crap on that same Constitution when it does not suit their whims. Amnesty only encourages more illegal immigration. On the bright side we have a president whose economic policy is so bad that that has become a deterrent. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-20-2012 at 3:33am
Seth, sorry but every person that is here illegally is a law breaker, and I have never heard of a cartel giving someone a swedish necktie. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-20-2012 at 3:35am
I picture Mr. Rogers trolley going to the land of make believe. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: harddock
Date Posted: June-20-2012 at 10:44am
and the solution to this is forgive them and make what they do legal? and if they are no different than me, I can do the same? Ok, I'm glad we are clear on this ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4487" rel="nofollow - 1998 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-20-2012 at 11:03am
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yeah thier parents brought them into the country before the age of 16 and they didnt run away and walk back home... those evil lawbreakers. Damn Obama is only going to make them pay a fee and apply for a 2 year work permit for thier heinous act... they should be shot or minimally dumped back into a country they haven't been too since they were a young child and left to die. Now I see the light. My solution would be to have a functional immigration system that would allow america to continue to attract the best from around the world but as that is politically impossible due to all the partisan nonsense on both sides.... not keeping those who were brought here as children and who are in or have finished highschool or who want to enter the military from being productive taxpayers is a good start. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-20-2012 at 11:59am
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I agree Joe. Fix the broken system, change the ineffective laws. To do it right may take some time, but now that we have finished the important work of prosecuting baseball players for fibbing maybe we can get to that. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: June-20-2012 at 12:40pm
I'd like to see some politicians get the same scrutiny as Roger. We'd probably never catch a politician telling a lie though.  ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: Hansel
Date Posted: June-20-2012 at 12:41pm
I'd love to thank him right now for crawling back to the Feds, getting denied, and then having to pay for train upgrades on his own. Wasn't it Pete who was just whining about poor train service just a few days ago? Yet I suppose neither he nor you actually want to pay for it. I guess spending extra money on a hose is a great investment, but spending money on societal infrastructure, well, that is liberal crazy talk! Like Joe I never cease to be amazed at the amount of cognitive dissonance on display in these political threads. Just yesterday Dave even used the fact that the rich are getting richer at his expense in an argument against people of even less means. I don't even know what to make of these lines of argument sometimes. At least be consistent, or maybe that is what is going on. Arguments are consistently in "my" favor and against "them" no matter what philosophy or "evidence" I have to use to support my end goal. |
Posted By: harddock
Date Posted: June-20-2012 at 1:02pm
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Since the president can do the work of congress, maybe it is time to do away with congress, and just let the president do it all. It would accomplish everything Obama wants, and get rid of 535 people no one seems to like. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4487" rel="nofollow - 1998 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-20-2012 at 2:11pm
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how about 536 people, Obama is not real high on popularity either. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-20-2012 at 2:23pm
This was in response to the preposterous statement that we could bring 700,000 people from the lower class to the middle class and somehow raise UP those already there at a time of stagnant growth. There is a fundamental math discrepancy there. Some times rather than make a protracted argument I put my tongue in my check and just use the lefts "accepted facts", unfortunately there is not an emoticon that says Hey, I am pimping you by using your own reasoning to make an argument. Maybe a little smiley thumbing his nose would work. Of course again we are distracting from a the real question which is why are we accepting unconstitutional practices from our president who swore an oath to uphold the Constitution. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-20-2012 at 4:20pm
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You can't start at the end of the equation (the size of the economy) declare an answer (that it is stagnant) and then use it to go back and say that therefore because the middle class always gets screwed that this will screw them and call it an inarguable fact. to do so is wrong in a preposterous amount of ways.. not the least of which are mathmatically, economically, logically, and most importantly irrefutably. So there  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-20-2012 at 4:45pm
I think I can, I am saying the sum of two plus two is four. Somehow you have them adding up to six. The economy is stagnant with an anemic 2 two percent growth, Many have declared it and only a few on the left try to refute it. If we were in Regan's third year with five to eight percent growth your math would work.  ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-20-2012 at 7:04pm
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you are sayin that 2+2 = 4 and 2+4 = 4 because 2+2 = 4. I am saying that 2+ 4 will equal 6. If you want to bring reagans third year into it you should actually go to the real economics of it and you will see that any money spent by the government gets added directly to the growth of the economy. So yes when he raised the level of government spending the economy grew... unfortunately you cant do that forever as a method of economic growth, sometimes you need to add more workers or get them to produce more valuable work which is exactly what you do when you add 700000 motivated workers to the workforce. You also get an increase in tax revenue to help undo the debt you got by reagan (and others) not replacing what they spent with tax dollars. I am not make this stuff up Y = C + I + E + G where Y = GDP C = Consumer Spending I = Investment made by industry E = Excess of Exports over Imports G = Government Spending In this case I does not equal buying monetary investments it is only related to the actual things that businesses buy to do future work. If you increase the wages of 700000 people they will in aggregate spend more (increasing C) and the economy will grow. One could in a stretch argue that I will go down because businesses facing higher labor costs will not be able to invest. It is possible, although very much unlikely to match the increase in C... why because corporate profits are at record levels, because not all 700,000 would be working for existing corporations many would start businesses or be employed by businesses that are started to take advantage of the increased growth rate, and because corporate profits are highly saved by the 1% and wages that will diminish them will be highly spent by the 700000. Saving doesnt contribute to GDP spending does. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-20-2012 at 7:09pm
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Sorry Joe, I'm calling foul. Basic math and economic principles have no place in a political discussion. Please return to exchanging hearsay and whimsical anecdotes. ------------- |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-20-2012 at 7:57pm
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That's all fine and dandy Joe but spending as a percent of GDP is higher than it was in the Regan years. Where is our 5-8% growth? ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: Hansel
Date Posted: June-21-2012 at 1:34am
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/06/25/120625fa_fact_klein?currentPage=1" rel="nofollow - Tim, I think that you are on to something! :) |
Posted By: eric lavine
Date Posted: June-21-2012 at 8:36am
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I believe Reagan fudged the military into the job growth numbers ------------- "the things you own will start to own you" |
Posted By: harddock
Date Posted: June-21-2012 at 10:59am
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It was Al Gore that invented or at least coined the phraise "Fuzzy Math" ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4487" rel="nofollow - 1998 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: Waterdog
Date Posted: June-21-2012 at 12:20pm
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Spending for jobs is one thing, spending to give away cell phones is another. I pay for mine you pay for yours. I think anyone of us will help someone that needs help. If your able -get your a$$ up and find a job. Whatever the percentage (of well fair) to many ride the gravy train. ------------- - waterdog - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3896&sort=&pagenum=2&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978" rel="nofollow - 78 Ski Tique |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-25-2012 at 11:02am
I had been to busy to get back to this, but in a stagnant economy Y is for practical purposes fixed. We know G is increasing, which means we have to reduce everything else on G's side of the equation to keep it balanced, or increase future debt. Thus we can truly grow the economy by increasing C,I,or E which can self perpetuate, or we can appear to grow the economy by increasing G with future funding, which will have to decrease C,I,E at some future point(which with baseline budgeting creates a permanent liability that has to be funded every year further taking away from future growth of C.I,E) How do we grow C,I,and E? By taking away unnecessary burdens like excessive tax and regulation. This is not an equation that specifically addresses the middle class, but here is one, If U and I equals the the middle class, and $ = our resources, and W= individual wealth, then W= $/U+I Add 700,000 to U and I W= $/u+I+700,000 To balance the equation we have to divide what belonged to U and I with the additional 700,000 (I made this this last stuff up) ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: June-25-2012 at 11:25am
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Well, speaking of immigration laws, the Supreme Court will be handing down thier decision on the Arizona Immigration Law today. Another little case they will be announcing today is the, let's see, what was it again????........Oh yeah, the Obamacare law! It hasn't had much coverage
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Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-25-2012 at 11:50am
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/06/25/mom-slapped-with-bill-to-clean-street-after-son-killed-by-illegal-immigrant/" rel="nofollow - lawlessness ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-25-2012 at 2:00pm
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You cannot declare an economy stagnant in the face of new variables… your still backwards. It is like how any of the partisan news sources report a story, determine the outcome you want first and then provide “facts” to support it. In economics you use the tools to measure growth, and help make decisions, only in a planned economy (communism) do we assume a growth rate and work backward. You can’t differentiate between apparent growth and real growth.. growth is growth. It is not “apparent growth” because it is unsustainable… it is still actual growth. The trick is to make it sustainable. Reagan and then Bush relied heavily on government spending to drive growth, and tried to link it to the tax cuts they simultaneously gave to the rich. (While deregulating the financial industries to the point where they needed bailouts). Reagan learned those lessons and found a more sustainable level of taxation by the end of his term. Additionally Reagan’s spending was somewhat justified in that he was facing an actual enemy. Bush’s policies on the other hand destroyed the world economy and nearly the country… he spent unabashedly, lowered taxes on the rich below any sustainable level, and then stimulated Consumer spending by unjustifiably low fed rates, all while failing to regulate the financial industry. There are a number of piggy banks in the realm of the economy that can drawn upon in a rainy day to stimulate through a downturn… bush literally broke them all and left us with nothing like a shiny new infrastructure or clean air and water to show for it. Which is why we have what you call “stagnant” growth, and no reasonable prospects for a quick return to healthy growth. We will be filling the piggy banks for another couple years, unless we are stupid enough to start handing out hammers again. One can see how Europe has turned around their downturn… the lack of stimulus over there (austerity) has a problem that started over here (financial meltdown) still effecting them to the point of recession while we have already had years of growth. You call it stagnant.. they would call it an economic miracle. The only people that ended that era better than they went in as a class was the top 1% and really only a fraction of that top 1% and they are not likely/able to increase their C or I beyond current rates. It ain’t the 1%’s fault, we don’t have anything against them, it was just bad economics, we should all be growing together including the 1%. Of course you can only actually grow the economy by taxing and spending up to the point where you are taxing so much that it decreases spending, and without fairness in the tax code it ain’t the land of the free and the home of the brave. Taxing those that spend almost everything they make is economically only useful in terms of fairness. Taxing those who make more money than they can possibly spend is a basic economic necessity… those rates should also be governed by fairness, but allowing money to leave the economy and not have a viable way back in is a method for societal decline. It is economic stupidity, unjustified by logic or fairness to tax salary at a rate higher than capital gains, in particular capital gains above a rate that can be effectively returned to the economy through spending. Government spending has a role, if it provides an environment where those who want to work hard and innovate are free to take risks, have an effective education, have an educated labor pool to draw upon, have access to a functional financial system to provide capital, and have the benefit of an infrastructure (including security infrastructure) from which to draw materials and deliver product then there is nothing that cannot be accomplished and the investment of that government spending can therefore be paid back by the effective and prosperous enterprise. The rates of taxation and spending that are necessary to provide these things are certainly up for debate but these are the basic building blocks and the spending that goes to support them by definition benefits most those who effectively use them to make the most money. The actual driver of the American economy has been C, will be C and can be nothing but C. C depends on security and confidence. The rate of spending vs income goes up dramatically when a basic safety net is in place… and of course when people have confidence in the state of the economy. You see that no where does putting money into a mutual fund, 401k, private equity firm, or any other such non capital investment contribute to the GDP in anyway. Availability of credit to those who do the actual investing in people and equipment is of course key, but it has been definitely proven time and time again that without effective regulation and government backing large financial institutions will continually overreach until they fail spectacularly. The call for less regulation on the financial industry to somehow help economic grown seems spectacularly silly, in particular considering the European economic troubles are still impacting our growth on a daily basis is part of the fall out from our last failed experiment in financial deregulation. That is not to say that there are not some overburdensome regulations out there, in particular at the state and local levels , but financial regulation is a proven requirement for economic growth at this point. Therefore I reject out of hand that tax and regulation are “unnecessary burdens”. They are necessary to a functioning economy. The levels that one can consider excessive can be debated but the results of achieving historically low levels of either are obvious over the last 30 years . Where we currently are in relation to what has worked is also apparent if you look to facts and not fox, tax rates are too low to be sustainable and regulation is only approaching what is needed. If we get near the levels Reagan had in place at the end of his term we can talk about whether we are getting in the right ball park. Therefore decreasing taxes and regulation at this point will not increase growth and if that is only solution someone is offering I suspect they are hiding a hammer behind their back. There now I am the boring one. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: MI-nick
Date Posted: June-25-2012 at 3:17pm
unfortunately it's the case that consumer spending is and has been the major driver...while it should be manufacturing...a nation should be judged by what they produce and NOT what they consume. ------------- As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure... |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-25-2012 at 4:15pm
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Except in a planned economy there can be no manufacturing without demand and demand is generated by C. You are moving down another level when we talk about makeup of the growth over the size of the growth. Manufacturing has had a slow but steady growth in the last couple years after We would be a much more manufacturing oriented economy if we had not chosen to rely on the 1% for growth.. 1% can only demand so much in the way of manufactured goods. Until last year there had not been a single year of manufacturing job growth in the US since 1997. It wasn't huge but it was a movement in the right direction for the first time in a long time. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: MI-nick
Date Posted: June-25-2012 at 4:18pm
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are you advocating a planned economy?? ------------- As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure... |
Posted By: Hansel
Date Posted: June-25-2012 at 4:43pm
How on earth did you come up with this conclusion based on what Joe just said? It is ironic that, in fact, your earlier comment is much closer to "advocating a planned economy" than anything I have ever seen Joe post. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-25-2012 at 4:44pm
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Planned economies don’t work… neither do completely unregulated economies. Both have been weighed and measured and both have been found wanting. I am advocating for reality-based conversation, and the use of actual history, factual data, and proven economic theory to determine the proper course of government action (or inaction) that will benefit the entire country. And advocating against overblown rhetoric and propaganda from either side, in particular that which serves to pit one portion of the population against another in an effort to make both them easier to control. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: MI-nick
Date Posted: June-25-2012 at 5:06pm
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it was just a question. joe, you stated that the main driver of the economy can be nothing but consumer spending and that in a planned economy you can't have mfg w/o consumer spending. i disagree with the first statement and agree with the second...but, it was unclear to me whether or not you were advocating a planned economy. just a question, that's all. ------------- As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure... |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-25-2012 at 5:14pm
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in a planned economy... by defintion manufacturing is to plan and not to demand. In a market driven economy market never calls for production it calls for product. Somewhat of a technicality... but you have to have the C unless you want to move to a planned economy. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-25-2012 at 5:16pm
Maybe its just a simple communication issue (punctuation?) but that is not at all what I interpreted Joe saying. I think he said: - Only a planned economy can have manufacturing without demand. - Therefore, a free market economy needs demand in order to drive supply (manufacturing). - Consumer spending is how we measure demand. ------------- |
Posted By: MI-nick
Date Posted: June-25-2012 at 5:19pm
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that's why I asked...the wako face was in case he was advocating the planned economy. my point regarding spending vs. manufacturing is where the products are made...70% consumer spending on made in US products = good...70% consumer spending on made in china products not so much... ------------- As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure... |
Posted By: harddock
Date Posted: June-25-2012 at 5:51pm
It is a shame we don't know how to count unemployment. Once you are unable to collect they stop counting you. Which in ter results in them thinking you are working. You may have given up, or do under the table jobs, or less meaningful part time which is considered new jobs when really you are just pushing aside someone lower down the food chain. Consumer spending may go up as do prices which in turn doesn't mean we are buying more, just spending more. If the price of goods goes up at the same rate a store takes in more revenue that is not going to increase demand. Free up some cash and people will spend more. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4487" rel="nofollow - 1998 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-25-2012 at 6:42pm
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All the growth rates are indexed for inflation, but not population growth. Job creation is another layer of complexity in because of the need to take into account inventory and productivity levels. Most of the gains over the last couple years have definitely been in productivity and therefore went to corporate profits and not to employment. At the same time uncertainty still rules (in particular whenever congress threatens to shut down government and crash the economy) and so businesses are prone to keep inventory levels lower than usual. The pushing people down theory does not take into account Entrepreneurs Entrepreneurs, those whom the current job market does not well serve and so they chose to go out and redefine that market through invention or competition. They are the heart of the free market. Some feel they are currently being crushed by the weight of burdensome regulation… and in some cases they are. Where government chooses to intervene it is the entrepreneurs that should be protected for it is their innovation in product and production that allow every member of society to prosper, none at the expense of others. The lack of the Entrepreneurs innovation is why a planned economy will always fail… as one can never plan to innovate. The stifling effect of monopolies and other entrenched interests on the entrepreneur in a completely unregulated economy is the reason it will also always fail. For the market to be truly free and bring the greatest reward to those that work the hardest and bring the most talent simply being bigger or being born rich cannot be enough to determine success (or to cause failure). The government doesn’t owe you and can’t help you get a job. But done right it can and should provide you with an environment where you determine your own success. Those who feel hard work can and will be rewarded work hard. You get a bunch of people working hard combined with innovation and you won’t need to worry about unemployment. Some portion of that 700000 will not only become employees but will also become employers, maybe mine, maybe yours. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: critter
Date Posted: June-25-2012 at 8:21pm
This statement implies that none or few of the 700,000 are currently working in the US. The new directions include those up to age 30. So I would suspect that many are working at jobs such as farm labor, or construction, or using illegal papers. In many cases those working are not making minimum wage as they work under the table. So we now give them Visas that allow them to apply for and work jobs that require taxes and minimum wage. What about the jobs that they no longer want or choose the work ? Lets say only 200,000 of the 700,000 are working and are doing so under the radar. So what have we done ?? Opened up 200,000 jobs for new illegals to come across the border to fill. Why not fix the issue of the border before we make changes that result in more illegals wanting to come fill the newly opened positions. The employers that are hiring these illegals need to be penalized and forced to stop the illegal hiring. ICE was doing this at one time. You stop the bleeding before you feed the patient. ------------- 1980 Ski Nautique 1966 Barracuda |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: June-25-2012 at 10:51pm
Whew! Man, when you get on a roll, you get on a roll. You missed your calling. You should have been a politician. Are you sure you aren't an MSNBC consultant?? The key thing that I noticed that I REALLY disagree with that you said (and there are many) is that tax rates are too low to be sustainable. Has it ever occured to you that spending is too high to be sustainable? We are borrowing $.40 cents of every dollar we spend from China (deficeit spending). Talk about the problems Europe is having?? I would say their spending has been much too high to be sustainable, and that's why they are tanking over there. Spain, Greece, France, and others have had heavy socialistic spending, and they are now collapsing under their own weight. They are all looking to Germany to bail them out. Germany has obviously been on a long term, sustainable, austerity program, and they are rightfully saying why should we bail everyone out that spent like drunken sailors over the past 10/20/30+ years. While I don't have the ability to express this in a mathmatical equation, I see the U.S. on that same "too high of spending" track. Our debt has already been downgraded once, I bet it will be again soon if we don't put our own austerity program in place. Look at how people in your state are fleeing NY. Ask them about not paying enough taxes. |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-25-2012 at 11:21pm
Joe, You keep telling me what I cant do right after I have just done it. I love backwards math because you already have the answer and you are just figuring out how you got there. 2% growth is stagnant. That is one reason why our unemployment rate just went back up. If we had 4% unemployment and 2% growth few would care, but when you have 15% real unemployment it is a big problem. Of course there are other factors, like uncertainty in regulation and taxation that have employers holding their cash, and who can blame them when you look at the policy roller coaster we have been on for the last three years. Regans policies worked because he cut and spent with the economy in mind. Obama's don't because he has spent and spent with his voter base and donors in mind. I never said all taxes and regulation are unnecessary and burdensome, I said unnecessary taxes and regulation are burdensome. All Individuals and business get benefits from government and they should pay for them, it is when the cost exceeds the benefits and the regulations go from protecting to meddling that I have a problem. Why should Ford pay taxes to bail out GM? Why should the oil companies pay taxes to build a Solyndra who was not ready to compete with their technology? That is meddling and wealth re-distribution and it is bad for the economy. But back to the Issue at hand, Joe, what do you view as the purpose of immigration and immigration policy in the US? ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-26-2012 at 12:54pm
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You put a dressing on the wound before you feed the patient but you don’t keep them starving until the scar fades. We have increased border enforcement, we are deporting the actual criminals at a record rate. We have more than doubled spending on border patrol and ICE since 2005, ask my buddy Andy down there in New mexico riding around 4 wheelers in the desert they are hiring guys as quick as they can. Short of the magical fence that kills everyone who is not carrying the proper papers the second they consider entering our borders what more should be do before we can start to deal with the people that are here? In particular these ones that are here due to no fault of their own and that we have already paid to educate? Should net immigration of Mexico have to be down to 0… wait it is… or do we have to get every illegal immigrant out of the country before we can do anything. That is impossible and would only be proposed by those who want to make sure we never do anything, like those whose business depends on slave wages and conditions to keep their prices low enough to make them billionaires. I see absolutely no downside to any of the 700000 moving from an off the books job to an on the books job. If it is 200000 then at least some of those jobs will determine they have to honestly compete in the labor market for legal labor. People aren’t risking their lives to rush over the border to make 3 dollars an hour, they rushed over the border during booms when they could make real money building a bunch of houses no one really needed in the middle of the desert. They should have been able to do it legally as there truly was a labor shortage, however those that didn’t want to pay them real wages spent a lot of money to maintain the status quo. Once they are here and the boom jobs dry up they take whatever they can get. Some even leave. These 700000 people didn’t rush over the border at all, and they got no place to go so they won’t. 10 percent of them will likely end up criminals plaguing society before we finally give them a chance at a productive job in the prison system. It ain’t got to be like that. It only takes one of the 700000 to cure cancer or figure out how to get a Ski Nautique to go 70mph, if those two of them are forced to work at Tyson for the rest of their lives we all suffer. I completely agree that we should prosecute employers that hire illegal immigrants, so does the vast majority of the American people. However any attempt to do so is attacked as crippling regulation and unnecessary growth of government and it dies in congress. The money behind those attacks comes from the chamber of commerce and farmers groups, the money from the other side comes from… well unions used to try and support enforcement but as an evil special interest group being attacked from all sides they are mostly just fighting for the right to exist now. If we could take all the special interest money out of it perhaps we would just elect people that do what is in the best interest of the majority of us. The executive branch does however have some leeway within existing funding and regulation to do some things, they should continue to do it while the others talk about magic fences. If we vote out of office those talking about magic fences while filibustering any attempts at real reform maybe we will start to make some progress. That would be easier to do if citizens united weren’t allowing unlimited money into politics by overturning bipartisan election reform supported by the vast majority of the American people. Spending is too high and unsustainable primarily due to run away healthcare costs and longer life spans, however the tax rate is also too low and unsustainable. The two are not mutually exclusive and there is no logical reason to address one and not the other unless you are just trying to promote gridlock to sustain the status quo. The reason our debt was downgraded was because of the gridlock caused by a bunch of misguided tea partiers Beyond that a capital gains tax rate that maxes out at 15% while the marginal income tax rates peak at twice that will destroy the American experiment, logically there is no doubt about it. It discourages the work of building a company and building product and encourages raiding and moving production off shore selling your stake and taking the quick and relatively untaxed buck. It was easy to predict and the results are staring us in the face. Locking in a tax rate much lower than that which has ever produced a balanced budget in even the best modern times by getting people to sign a pledge that they would never ever under any circumstances raise a tax of any sort was silly, logically it could only lead to huge deficits during bad economic cycles and just kinda big deficits in boom times. Again the results are staring us in the face. Arguments such as but yeah it’s a spending problem are not necessarily wrong… but are used to keep us from facing the reality that yeah it is also a tax problem specifically on certain rates and taxes and it is a fairness problem. Greece is a mess because of corruption and general sillyness, the rest of Europe is broken from the US driven real estate boom and credit bust. Germany has just as much of decried “socialist spending” as spain or france. You wouldn’t believe the amount of spending going into alternate energy stuff over there, it ain’t exactly austerity baby. Big difference between them and the rest of Europe right now is that their real estate was already so expensive that it couldn’t boom quite as much in the last cycle. Plus, they are the germans they value production over service and in an economic downturn it is certainly going to be the vacation countries that feel it first. But as an engineer for a german company (who gets less than half the vacation or 1/12th the paternity leave of my Germany counterparts) I am slightly biased. Btw the germans are investing in NY this is a cheap labor market for them. Dave you can keep making circular arguements if you really want to, but it does no one any good to address them if you are making up the answers and then using them to prove the answers you made up it is what it is. All I see in our current immigration policy is special interests that don’t want to compete for labor on the open market perpetuating the current system and doing so by exploiting fear and racism. What can I say. I am a free market guy. When Scalia says something like 200,000 americans are now going to have to compete with dreamers who can now legally be employed… I say hell yeah they should be competing That there is the free market. Those who can do the best job get the job. That’s America! That’s the whole damn point! Immigration policy should be used to secure the borders and protect us from our enemies but not from protect us from having to work hard and be productive. Anyone not a threat to national security and willing and able to go to work, sign them up and let them come on in… if they prove their mettle give them a path to full status, I ain’t willing to put them on welfare but I don’t have a problem educating their kids.. someone is going to need to pay my social security someday. Hell someone has to live in all those extra houses in the desert that were built on spec. Having people want to come to America to compete for jobs is what makes us unique and dominant. Very few of us are native americans or came over on the Mayflower. Creating a second class of citizens that compete in an illegal market benefits very very few. Perhaps we have lower chicken prices but having a group of workers that doesn’t pay their fair share of taxes costs us all. I ain’t worried about my ability to compete with anyone that has to play by the rules, seems like maybe some of seem like you are? Fear not action, fear only the crippling effects of inaction! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: critter
Date Posted: June-26-2012 at 6:05pm
And there is a major part of the problem.... All that cross the boarder illegally are actual criminals. I have to go now to take Cathie to a courthouse to face the judge and pay her fine for her speeding ticket. But wait, why should I,,, she is not an actual criminal unless she does a real Federal crime.... We need a listing of the Laws we should actually have to follow. The waters have become so muddy lately. ------------- 1980 Ski Nautique 1966 Barracuda |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-26-2012 at 6:22pm
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Your mom brought you to the US when you were 3, you overstayed your visitors visa and because the second you turned 18 you didnt run back to mexico you are a criminal? Or is it the second you want to get a job where you pay taxes? I hit 68 a couple times on the way to work today, along with 130 million other people, should we all get tickets based on satalitte imagery immediately or is there some need for prosecutorial discretion? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: June-26-2012 at 6:32pm
| How many countries in the world can you enter illegally with no recourse if you get caught? Legal immigration is what has made this country great. I don't understand the logic of accepting illegal immigration. We should either enforce the law or change it. |
Posted By: critter
Date Posted: June-26-2012 at 6:32pm
No, but you should immediately file for citizenship or a work visa so that you can begin the process like everyone else before you. And if you are 30 and still in this country illegally and not filed for citizenship, you never planned to.
We are still waiting for our call or note telling us they got our back and no need to attend.. 1st ticket in her life but she broke the law and we are supposted to be a nation of laws. If Congress passes a law that only those here illegally with 7 fingers on their left hand are to be deported, I will support all those here without 7 fingers on their left hand. But until then, we are supposted to be a nation of law. Change the Law and they have my support. Until then, follow the Law. ------------- 1980 Ski Nautique 1966 Barracuda |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-26-2012 at 7:01pm
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If they are 30 and still here then by definition they didn’t file for citizenship… cause they would have been deported. The entire point here is that Obama is allowing them to file for a permit to work, they currently can’t they would have to leave the country first to legally do so. Which is a daunting task for someone that doesn’t know anybody in and hasn’t been to mexico since they were a child. The immigration system is broke, in many countries it actually works… in America it should be a priority it is who we are and what made us great. I don’t know what we are afraid of. freeloaders looking for free health care and a welfare state would do better in pretty much any other industrialized country, hell our educational system isn't measuring up to well either these days, the ones looking to come to America must actually want to work. I ‘ll be happy to split my portion of the national debt with any of em. Increased enforcement of the borders, increased deportations of criminals, and the ability for 700000 already American educated individuals to file for a permit to work on the books rather than go straight to the black market ain’t much. But it is something.. certainly more than we have seen coming out of congress… Reality is tough... Roger you should have talked to the DA, a letter referencing your wifes previously clean record would have likely gotten her a significant reduction if not a dismissal. That too is the reality of prosecutorial discretion. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: critter
Date Posted: June-26-2012 at 7:08pm
They are coming here because they can. Most other industrialized countries enforce immigration laws. You are correct that there are many other countries that could provide better healthcare and education.... but they do not...
We are apprearing in court tomorrow morning in Lexington to get it reduced or use her "Prayer for Judgement" which puts her on probation. Thanks for the info.... ------------- 1980 Ski Nautique 1966 Barracuda |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: June-26-2012 at 8:22pm
Surely not Mexico. We went on vacation there last June. It was unbelieveable the process to get in and get out that country. I wonder why that was? They seemed to be VERY concerned about who was there and why. Wouldn't one think that as fond as they are of open borders we could just waltz in and waltz out. Not a chance! I just can't understand why we have a President and Administration that turns their back on enforcing laws they don't like. Who knows what these people will do if re-elected, and they don't have the fear of facing another election?!?!?! |
Posted By: Hansel
Date Posted: June-26-2012 at 8:43pm
Based on what my foreign friends say, part of the reason this might be is payback; i.e. you don't want to let me in to your country? Well fine, I don't want to let you in to my country either! Stupid? Sure. Understandable? Definitely. |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: June-26-2012 at 8:57pm
| Don't we let Mexicans immigrate to this country, just not as many that want to? I live in a city that Catholic Charities has helped thousands immigrate to and we have 30 languages spoken in our schools, and I know some are Mexican as well as Central Americans. Seems people are able to immigrate here, just not as many that want to, which is probably the same case in every country. |
Posted By: davidg
Date Posted: June-26-2012 at 9:03pm
Say what?? My gosh, we are practically running an air-conditioned shuttle service into the U.S. from Mexico. Not sure what your friends mean when they say we are keeping the Mexican's (or god knows who else that may be coming in on the southern border). It's an open border!! Our President isn't even trying to enforce immigration laws. How do you feel about that? Is that acceptable? |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: June-26-2012 at 11:37pm
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Joe, a little scenario for you. I Buy a nice 1983 500 hp ski nautique with a great tower from a seller who just moved to Minnesota from New York, Register it (no titles in Minnesota) and use it for ten years, wash and wax it, change its oil, basically be an exemplary boat owner. 10 years later I run into you at a reunion and you say that it is your stolen boat. I have not knowingly done anything wrong. Do I get to keep your boat? Why or why not? ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |