BAD BAD day - HELP
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26743
Printed Date: November-24-2024 at 7:58pm
Topic: BAD BAD day - HELP
Posted By: newguy1986
Subject: BAD BAD day - HELP
Date Posted: June-30-2012 at 6:53pm
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Guys, OK here is the story. I got the carb rebuilt in the boat and everything ran fine in the drive way. We tuned it and set the idle. I finaly got a morning to run over the the lake and test it out. I get on the ramp, jump in the boat and try and crank her. She wont start. For some reason it looked like I had a weak battery. OK not a big deal. ran to get a battery. drop it in and get back on the ramp. After cranking it for what i thought was way to long it started. I pull off the trailer and im going to the dock and I notice it making a light knocking noise.... I was pissed.... I ran it around close to the marina and the knocking continued but it wasnt consistant. It seemed stronger when the boat was n gear but idling. and light when the boat was out of gear. so being scared of messing it up more i put it back on the trailer. I got back to town and checked the dip stick. it was milky.... I drained to oil.... Am I completely screwed? I need yalls opinion on what I should do next. Im gong to try to up load some video to you tube. I think you can hear it if that helps..   ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Replies:
Posted By: 71CCMartinique
Date Posted: June-30-2012 at 11:49pm
| Best case is a blown gasket. Worst case is a cracked head block. Isolate the source of the water. |
Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: July-01-2012 at 12:54am
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at least you got the plug out without cutting the hose. trouble free boating is mostly a fantasy only experienced for short periods if at all. Have you considered adding horsepower? now is your chance. ------------- This is the life |
Posted By: lakedog55
Date Posted: July-01-2012 at 1:01am
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Sorry for the misfortune, sounds like head gasket to me, My 83 did the same thing lots more compression when there is water sitting on top of the piston. Makes it seem like a week battery. The water adds to the firing problem. Time for some gt-40 heads and a new intake with those new gaskets. First day this summer I have not had to turn a wrench, I take that back I had to fix the battery terminals on the tractor. Mike ------------- Lakedog55 |
Posted By: dwcar
Date Posted: July-01-2012 at 1:31am
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Andrew, I had water in my oil and it turned out to be one of plugs in the top of my heads had a pin hole in it.Water was getting thru. I know it is a long shot but an easy fix compared to the other options. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyjgzPN4yg0" rel="nofollow - google video on water in 351 ------------- 83Ski |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: July-01-2012 at 4:31am
| You should probably check your exhaust manifold? Seems like that is a likely point for water intrusion, and, while it's not a cheap fix, it is a lot easier than a head gasket/head replacement |
Posted By: ononewheel
Date Posted: July-01-2012 at 5:09am
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Whatever you do I would not run it again. My symptoms were similar to yours at one point. I ran it because I already had intentions of scrapping the engine. The flat tappets, will wear quickly, and that is costly. Just ask me. Might be too late if it is already knocking. ------------- If we let the professionals do everything it takes all the fun out of youtube |
Posted By: dwcar
Date Posted: July-01-2012 at 12:03pm
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Here is a past thread on the subject that might be of some help. http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14630&KW=oil&PID=175322&title=water-in-crankcase#175322" rel="nofollow - water in the crankcase ------------- 83Ski |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: July-02-2012 at 11:15am
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ok so I’m guessing my best way forward is to build a stand and pull the motor? of do you think I can take the manifolds off and heads while its in the boat? I dont have an easy way of getting that motor out myself. I will need to source a local shop with some over head equipment. I haven’t ever disassembled one before. Should be interesting. When I am disassembling I expect a lot of the sludge mixture to be present. What can I clean all this out with? I wouldn’t think water... ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: July-02-2012 at 12:21pm
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Slow down there Hoss. Before you start talking about tearing things out and adding horsepower seeing as you have it apart how about finding out what the hell the issue is first!!!!! Where's the water coming from? What motor are we talking about here? How many hours are on it? Did you change, remove or replace anything else with the carb rebuild? Change the oil and get the milky stuff out of there. Do a compression test and leak down test to find out where to start looking. Pay attention to what the plugs look like when you take them out. Then we can talk about the best plan of attack. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: Jllogan
Date Posted: July-02-2012 at 12:27pm
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and yes manifolds and heads can be removed in the boat, just cover everything up so you dont make a mess. Do your best to start narrowing down the causes. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5792&sort=&pagenum=1" rel="nofollow - 1986 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: July-02-2012 at 12:47pm
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Eddie, I didnt mention anything about power or upgrades at this point. My goal is to find the problem and hope it is not a cracked block. The oil is draining now. SO im guessing I should add new oil for testing? I AM ASKING WHAT THE BEST WAY IS TO FIND THE ISSUE! I will be going to the boat on wednesday and will take all the plugs out and take pictures. They were all new as of two weeks ago. I changed the distributor cap and plugs when the carb was done. thats it. The boat ran fine in the drive way after all that and started fine. nothing has been done since that point other than it getting towed to the lake and wet sanded. when the motor was out for the floor work the shop changed the engine oil and trans. whats this leak down test? sorry about the stupid question ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: July-02-2012 at 1:27pm
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Yes, drain the oil and replace with new. I'd normally like to see you flush out the old oil and water and do another change, but until you figure out the knocking sound I'd hate to see you fire it up. You can pull all the spark plugs and spin the engine by hand to see if you hear anything and see if any water in the cylinders. Water in oil can have a few causes like people described above, and catching it quickly like you did minimizes the chance the water does any damage. What we don't know is what that knocking sound is. If you could get that video up it might help. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: July-02-2012 at 2:02pm
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http://youtu.be/Pj4wpRsgJx8" rel="nofollow - video the video is bad but you can hear the audio good in this one. listen close... ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: July-02-2012 at 2:13pm
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I wasn't implying any power upgrades from you. Everyone is saying headgaskets, intake, exhaust manifolds or heads and then let's upgrade the heads while you're at it. I'm saying let's find out where the problem is first before you start pulling this thing apart. Yes, change the oil as you normally would. You may end up doing it a few times before this is all over so be patient. You want to have clean oil in there so we can get the best data we can. Pull the plugs before you start it. Is there any water in the cylinders? How fast does the oil turn milky? To do a compression test you should have the engine warmed up first. Is it milky after that warm up? We still don't know for sure what engine this. I assume a 351. A leak down test you get each cylinder to the compression stroke and then put compressed air into the cylinder and listen to where the air is escaping at. Heads, intake, block, or exhaust. It can be more accurate than a compression test but a compression test is a good starting point as all you need is the compression tester that's easily purchased about any place. Not everybody has easy access to some compressed air tanks. Some of the usual suspects in these cases are the exhaust manifolds letting water into the cylinders. A blown head gasket. A cracked head. The 351 (if that's what it is) has had several cases of a cracked intake in the water passage on the underside of it. Everybody assumes the worst(a cracked block) but I think that's really pretty rare under the type conditions that you're descibing. Let's do the compression test and if possible, a leakdown test and see what we got first. Then we can worry about the next steps. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: July-02-2012 at 2:19pm
Is it the occasional thump sound every 4-5 seconds or so? ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
newguy1986 wrote:Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: July-02-2012 at 2:33pm
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yes, the semi random thump noise is what I am talking about. you can hear it good at second 54 ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: July-02-2012 at 2:39pm
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Eddie, you hear that sound? What do you think, water causing hydraulic lock in one cylinder every 40-60 revolutions? Or something simpler like a sticky valve? ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: July-02-2012 at 3:33pm
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Sorry Dave, I can't watch the video here at work. Video sharing sites are blocked from us. I won't be able to listen to it until I get home tonight. By what you're describing, it's not related to the one-to-one rotation of the engine. Crank or cam. If that's true, I think it's a good thing. If you're hearing the sound every 4-5 seconds and it's still random, I gotta believe that the rotating assemblies are OK or you'd be hearing something more consistant with every crank or cam rotation. I personally think that you pull the plugs to see if there's any water in any of the cylinders and do a compression test. Maybe do the compression test cold at first to see if there's anything obvious that jumps out at us. Do this on the trailer with a water hook up in place and pressurized at that time (aka Fake-A-Lake). With the plugs pulled and cranking the engine over for the compression test, if you have an exhaust leak that's bad enough, you might get water spitting out a cylinder or cylinders. That would a good thing in the overall scheme of things. A simple (or not so simple) exhaust gasket or cracked exhaust manifold). Then again, you might have to get the engine warmed up and the thremostat open before you'll see the leak. If that's the case, you're only option is running it. Knock or no knock. No matter what, I feel that you need to find the source of the water intrusion before worrying about the knock. I'm guessing one fixes the other from the problem history and description but I'm certainly not an expert. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: Jllogan
Date Posted: July-02-2012 at 4:09pm
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also if your exhaust manifold is leaking you should be able to look up the runners and see a trail of rust or something. That will be a tell tale sign. Do as eddie suggests. Just turning it over by hand/compression test will tell you alot. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5792&sort=&pagenum=1" rel="nofollow - 1986 Ski Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: July-14-2012 at 7:39pm
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Hey y'all, went and did the compression test this morning. Here are the results 1-130 2-130 3-130 4-140 5-125 6-115 7-110 8-120 Thoughts? Didn't have all my tools to get those exhaust manifolds off. I'm guessing that is the next step? ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: July-14-2012 at 9:10pm
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you might have some problems with cyls 6 and 7, but they are not so far out that the motor wont run. rule of thumb is that all cys should be within 10% of each other compression wise. if you have a leak down tester ( uses air pressure and blows it thru the spark plug hole ) you can find out what part is leaking. it will be one of 3 places: intake valve, exhaust valve, or rings. I suspect that with an old motor, it is probably rings. if that is the case, you can probably run it for the summer and do a rebuild during the off season. go easy on the exhaust manifolds, work the bolt out, then turn it in , kinda like in steps, so you don't get carbon in the threads and lock them up. I have had good luck with an impact wrench on exhaust manifolds... |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: November-15-2013 at 9:52pm
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Update..... Nothing to update other than I'm married, I have a dog now, and I bought two (new to us ) cars. So having fun with the f 250. Now, the reason for the post. I was honestly thinking of just buying a rebuilt motor from thunderbolt in Houston and having the swap the damn motors and be done with this boat. But after a lot of searching and chatting with buddies which is always fun, we are diving in to this issues tomorrow. Plan is to take the heads off and inspect. Hope for a bad head gasket on the port side. If that's the case I plan on taking the heads in and getting them checked. Theory. I can't mess it up and if I do I was willing to buy a new motor anyway. You guys have any advice? I'll be on tonight but everything should be on this thread. Honestly without this site I would have sold this boat for a huge loss months ago. Love reading you guys posts and looking at pics more!!! ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: November-15-2013 at 10:17pm
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Maybe the knock you hear is an unrelated issue. IE cracked or worn out damper plate. If the motor isnt running the best maybe a slight misfire from water that will make the damper make lots of noise at idle speeds in gear. If you find the source of water intrusion stick it all back together and run it. Worst case it knocks all you are out are a few oil changes and a top end gasket set. ------------- |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: November-15-2013 at 10:24pm
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I took a lot of videos when I had the boat running last. After going back a watching I honestly think you are right. I don't really hear it from the motor in the video more the trans side of things. I could be going about this the wrong way but I think opening it up and inspecting if anything won't cause any harm and could shed light on the water in the oil situation With the low compression in 2 cylinders it seems I will find the issue pretty clear ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: November-16-2013 at 1:14am
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I had similar numbers on my Atom skier a month back. Took the heads off and the gasket was in very bad shape. Once we get the exhaust manifolds separated from the heads I may be able to send them out for check and rework as needed. I took it apart in the boat no problem. ------------- The value of money spent on new adventure far exceeds the value of money saved for the future |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: November-16-2013 at 11:05am
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Quote from the thread starter first post: "I finally got a morning to run over the the lake and test it out. I get on the ramp, jump in the boat and try and crank her. She wont start. For some reason it looked like I had a weak battery. OK not a big deal. ran to get a battery. drop it in and get back on the ramp. After cranking it for what i thought was way to long it started." To me, this one statement is a neon sign indicating a hydraulic bind. 90%+ chance its a riser or manifold. A simple gasket will do it. As for the engine, drain the oil and fill it up (full) with diesel fuel until you tear into it. This will keep it from rusting internally while nothing else is being done. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: November-18-2013 at 11:03am
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Alright... so finally got to dig into this boat as you all have been telling me to. the plan was to get the heads off for inspection and eveything went fairly well. only issues we had were getting the heads actually freed from the block but we worked at it and they came free.. I honestly think the pistons look good. no rust or anything. the number 1 cylinder had the most milky oil when we took the valve covers off. both head gaskets were presentbut in rough shape. not sure if thats the for sure problem but glad they are getting replaced. the intake manifold gasket was crap. barely even there. here are some pics. what do you guys think? Plan is now to get the heads to the machine shop and see what they say.       ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: November-18-2013 at 11:53am
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Gahh looks a little rough. Did you see any point that looked like would have been leaking water by the headgaskets? Check thoroughly around the cylinders and mostly where you want to look on the head gasket would be on the top side making a trail from the water jacket holes into the lifter valley. The ends of the intake manifold where the water crosses over are also big suspects in water intrusion. Take the rises off the exhaust manifolds and take a look there too. Take the heads to the machine shop and have them magnafluxed to check for cracks. Someone has been in there before because they used the paint on the rockers to mark which side or head the rockers came off of. Might want to invest in a good straight edge and a feeler gauge to check the block surface once it is cleaned for flatness. Like I said before, if the heads and all check out ok make sure to flatten the surfaces of the risers with a file and install new gaskets on both sides. Stick it all back together (preferably with a fel-pro marine gasket set). Make sure you attempt to clean out any residual oil you see anywhere visible. Like stated above don't freak out if the fresh oil turns milky when you first run it. That may be left over water and oil from before. You might need 2 or 3 oil changes to clean it out. Stick it back together and fire it up. Also, if it were me I would have the machine shop go ahead and clean up the heads, new valve job and new seals/guides. If you do this and the engine is trash you can still use the heads on another engine or sell them. If they are off you might as well do it. Some of the holes were slightly down but it may be because of worn valves? Either way it won't hurt or break your wallet. ------------- |
Posted By: desertskier
Date Posted: November-18-2013 at 8:15pm
| Make sure all your pistons make it to the top of the stroke. I had a similiar problem on my last boat (1975 Donzi Sweet 16) and one rod was bent slightly so the piston didn't make it all the way up and it made a slight tapping noise when it was running. I think it was the piston touching the crank. |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: November-18-2013 at 9:05pm
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Spoke to a local machine shop today. They wanted 290 plus any parts needed to re work the heads obviously after checking for cracks and what not. What's you guys thoughts on that price? This is my first time and that was the first shop I called. Plan on calling a couple more tomorrow. Also what all should I be requesting regarding service to the heads from the machine shop? ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: November-18-2013 at 9:45pm
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What do the manifolds look like? ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: November-18-2013 at 10:10pm
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For around 600 you can get a set gt40p ready to bolt on. That will put you with almost 40hp over the stock head... ------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: November-18-2013 at 10:55pm
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I think I have found the problem. When you asked what the manifolds looked like I went out to take pics. There's a lot of rust and two areas where I think I can tell the gasket broke on the intake manifold at the front of the motor. I got my big camera out and took a much of pics of the block, intake manifold and exhaust manifolds and I will post them tomorrow for you guys to check out. Does this sound like something that could be the problem? Also with the first two ports rusted pretty good on the intake manifold what would be the next step for that? ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: captbob626
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 12:05am
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In the driveway, did you suck the water rout of a bucket, or hook the hose directly to the intake? ------------- Bob Meimbresse |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 12:47am
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That could be it. But, I just went back to your original post and the knocking sound that you heard. While we hope it's just driveline noise or something else that's non crank/connecting rod/piston related, we don't know for sure. So, I think at this point I'd take Zach's advice, clean up the heads and re-assemble with new gaskets, get rid of the milkshake with a few oil changes and see how it runs. If you solve the water in oil problem but still hear the knock, you won't have spent any extra money besides the gasket set. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 10:31am
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The price sounds pretty right on for a complete head service. The parts associated with the head rebuild I doubt will be more than 100 bucks. So you will probably be out the door for around 350. Did he quote you a 3 angle job or just a standard? If you are thinking of keeping the thing you may well go with the GT-40P heads but if not and you want to save a couple hundred just incase you have to put it into the engine for a rebuild there's that. The 240 horse engine isn't really a slouch in a 2001 hull especially coupled with the hotrod ACME 540 prop. ------------- |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 10:44am
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You could at least look at the damper to see if that may have been causing the knock. Pull the starter and rotate the engine by hand while looking through the hole where the starter goes. You obviously need a little help for this. Maybe an inspection mirror too, but you should be able to at least see if the damper is damaged or not. Wait....disregard that. A SBF has the starter access on the front side of the flywheel so you won't be able to see the damper. Bummer. I was thinking SBC. Maybe someone else can chime in if there is an inspection plate on the bell housing someplace to be able to look at the damper without pulling the tranny? Sorry, not that versed in SBF's, at least in this regard. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 11:06am
ok guys I think this is where the water was getting in. bad intake gasket i think.  I understand what you guys are saying about the upgraded heads but I really dont need that much more power than she already has. And if i want to go that route one day I can sell the heads I have now cause they will be rebuilt. I think im more concerned with getting this thing to work with what it was originally setup for. Is that way off mark? any big issues with the current heads other than less power? So Plans are I am going to drop off the heads friday. should i bring him that intake manifold also? ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 11:11am
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also I know maybe my constant questions are annoying but im adding pics!! and im finally making progress and not giving up! ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 12:00pm
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Shouldn't be any issues as long as they check out ok. Might want the shop to do a light surface of all mating surfaces since water and corrosion seems to have been an issue. Rebuilt my 240 horse heads (86 vintage) 7 years and 640 +/- hours ago. Drive it like I stole it. ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 12:12pm
| For the extra $150-200 it would be a no-brainer to go with the better heads, at least to me. Those old heads are only good for boat anchors- I would not count on recouping more than $50-100 on them, even if rebuilt, and thats if you can find someone local who needs a functional set on the cheap. Theyre not worth enough to bother shipping. |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 12:25pm
Not annoying at all Andrew! I really enjoy threads like this, figuring out a problem and fixing it with help of a bunch of knowledgeable people here. I want to learn because it will be my turn with the problem next time. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 12:32pm
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Why are you considering rebuilding those heads… if something else is wrong with the engine you just dumped 400 dollars into them for no reason. I would be thinking that engine has to come out, if for no other reason than inspection purposes. Your current plan involves 500 bucks in parts and 10 hours of your time just to put it back together again and see if you still leak and have a “knock”. I would be wanting a good look at those main and rod bearings as well as the cylinder walls above and below the pistons before I decided if I wanted to do something to the heads and gasket it all back up and reinstall. If you had a smoking gun for the leak, which I have yet to see, and you were only taking a risk on the “knock” it would be one thing but with both mysteries unsolved I would be putting as little money/time into this engine as possible. Tim is right on about the value of your rebuilt heads to someone else.. next to nothing ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 12:44pm
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Joe, I'm with you on that being the best method, but I think Andrew just wants to put it all together and see if he can run. I've done that before, in the face of possible failure, and sometimes you get lucky. Think it's that big of a mistake? ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 12:48pm
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I am banking on the getting lucky factor. Depending on budget I would just rebuild it but he seems like he wants to see if he can work with what he has. ------------- |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 1:23pm
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ok ok ok hold the phone. there are two issues that are what Im assuming are a result from over heating. One is water in the oil, and two was a slight knocking noise from what I am comforable saying is an unknown source but is figured to be in the trans. This is something I need to dive into. I plan was to understand and fix the issues with the water in the oil and then get her started. I feel like its a trans issue from there. Im also assuming i can unbolt the trans without taking the motor out- that thinking could be wrong. Now, I feel like i have found the issue with the water in the oil in some bad gaskets. I think cleaning up the heads and rebuilding them would assume they would perform as factory? is that not the case? so if i can fix those get it put back together. clean out the oil and get it tuned I can move towards the knock. I hear ya when your saying "just spend more money and get new heads" but explain other than more horse power, why i should go back with what it came with from the factory. ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 1:30pm
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They don't want you to go through the others when you could spend 250 more and get more performance. The issue with that is the stock heads aren't worth as much as it costs to rebuild them. Then again the P heads will be worth less than what you pay after you use them but they will make more power. You will also need to buy a performance intake manifold to take advantage of the extra flow of the P heads because the stock manifold won't let you see the full potential of the bolted on horsepower of the GT-40P heads. Then you'll want to bolt on some better ratio roller rockers. Then you'll want to upgrade the camshaft. ETC. I am one who hates to do upgrades one thing at a time. If I buy P heads I'm going to be annoyed the entire time if I don't accompany that with the supporting modifications so I will be leaving lots of power on the table. I would rather put it back together stock until I do it all at once. ------------- |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 1:40pm
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So its not 600 in heads its 600 + 250 for an intake also... well for 1725 i could just get a totally rebuilt motor... and for 125,000 I could get a new boat.... to the point about the heads not worth as much as they are to rebuild...thats basically trying to argue this is actually a sound investment... come on... reworking the heads that are on it now seems like the way im going to go. unless some one can explain why they are better as an anchor... they were working just fine and had enough power for a 300 pound man to get up on a wakeboard before. Im not racing this thing I just want it to run and run smoothly. ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 1:47pm
| You can get fully rebuilt P-heads for $450, thats only $100 more than having your stock heads rebuilt. All of the other upgrades are completely optional- encouraged if youre trying eek every bit of hp out of the upgrade- but not required by any means. You'd still be up 40hp without them, and thats an incredible ROI for only an extra hundred bucks. The more modern head design and smaller combustion chamber would likely contribute to an increase in efficiency as well. But, its your money! |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 1:55pm
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Remind me what is wrong with those heads? I'm not a gear head but I'm with baitkiller on this one. Fresh gaskets all around and go skiing. ------------- |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 1:55pm
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This thread has become informational and very interesting to me. Wish I could have gotten as much input in Oct when I posted very similar issues with my Atom Skier. The heads are now on a bench as we slow but sure hope to get the intakes removed from the heads so we can send them out. It seems the long bolts mushroomed inside and dont want to allow release. My head gaskets showed smoking gun blow by at the valley area so i plan to send the heads to a shop for recondition and hope to reinstall. Whether this's all occurs before March will make the difference between a static display or a runner at Tavares. The boat is currently in Florida minus heads ------------- The value of money spent on new adventure far exceeds the value of money saved for the future |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 2:01pm
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Sheet son! They are only 225 now? Go ahead for that price. Tim you know better than me but you really think that thing can grab 40 extra ponies breathing through that straw like stock intake? Impressive. They will hog out the head bolt holes to 351 size for free if you tell them before you order FYI. ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 2:06pm
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Carb/TBI 285-300hp Proboss motors used the pancake cast iron intakes with GT40 heads and similar cam specs as the 240hp version so yes, easy bolt on 40hp with the P's alone. HW makes a good point... there really isnt any reason to rebuild the old heads that I can see. Why was that even on the table? If the gaskets were clearly junk, put new ones on and go skiing. I would be darned sure that the intake itself wasnt cracked though- that has been known to happen. |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 2:13pm
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I was going to get the heads checked. while they are off i dont see why that is unreasonable. If they come back not cracked and workable why wouldnt i have them clean them up / re work them and get them back up to snuff? I will get the intake checked at the same time. then put it back together. I mean honestly lets here what you guys think cause I dont know anything when it comes to this stuff. I am not the guy that is always looking for more horse power either. Im assuming from inspection of the top half of the motor im good regarding the block assembly and all that. Im assuming I have had gasket issues. Im assuming putting it all back together I can get the oil to clear up with multiple oil changes. Im not looking to rebuild the whole motor if it doesnt need it. Im not one to take stuff apart that works. ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 2:20pm
| It would cost more to have the stock intake and heads checked than theyre worth (let alone rebuilt/reworked)... why throw good money after bad? If you have any reason to suspect theyre bad, replace them with superior alternatives because theyre cheap and readily available. If you have no reason to suspect theyre bad, replace the gaskets and bolt them back on. |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 2:30pm
Jack, Difference here is that your skier is a totally different engine that, to my knowledge, heads would be few, if any at all available. Your only option is to have them rebuilt or repaired. Again, I'm certainly not an expert, but that engine is one very of us have any kind of experience with and the general concensus for any kind of engine in a boat like that is keep it original...or the rath of Pete comes down on you like fire and brimstone. We're talking about heads that are readily avaiable, really cheap and can be upgraded to much better performance for a really small amount of money in an engine that's putting out three or four times the HP yours is. Apples and oranges completely and sorry to say, not a lot of expertice in your specific situation. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 2:55pm
Not so sure about the bolts mushroomed rather than just frozen in place? There's some methods for breaking free beyond the obvious PB Blaster type if you want. There's a wax method that I didn't believe until I tried it and it worked on some mower spindle nuts. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 3:13pm
Listen to what Tim said. By the time you have them checked (which you have to disassemble to do) the natural progression is to "clean them up and rework them to get them back up to snuff" while you have them apart in the first place. They aren't worth the time and effort to do that. They'll cost $350-$375 (with parts) at very minimum to do what you're thinking. You can buy like new, reconditioned heads that flow much better than original with new valves, new guides, new springs and a valve grind already done for another $75-$100. So, either get new gakets with the stock heads, bolt them on and call it a day (hoping they aren't cracked) or buy new heads and new gaskets, bolt them on and you know they're good. I know getting the extra 40HP doesn't appeal to you at all so let's just call it an added benefit. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: juniorwoody
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 3:35pm
I should have been more clear, mine are swollen with a rust buildup internal on the headers. I'll not steal this thread any further.  ------------- The value of money spent on new adventure far exceeds the value of money saved for the future |
Posted By: 80SN Barnfind
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 3:42pm
GS that quote is right on! ------------- Knowledge comes by taking things apart: analysis. But wisdom comes by putting things together. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 3:48pm
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Putting it back together with new gaskets and seeing if it runs is a reasonable thing to do.. worst case your out a couple hundred and some time. Tearing it all apart then deciding on replacing heads and gaskets is a reasonable thing to do.. there is no worst case if the engine is toast you dont put any more time and money into it, if it isnt you make an informed decision about how much time and money you want in it. Reworking heads that have nothing visably wrong with them and then putting it all back together and hoping for the best is what I referred to as the current plan and has no upside - you take on all the risk of not doing the full job and spend at least have the money of doing the full job. Your machine shop may be awesome but in general paying a local outfit to rework heads costs a lot- usually more than expected - and doesnt give necessarily the greatest results. If it is a very common head - like the small block ford, or small block chevy there are many many other alternatives that will cost the same or less and provide as good or a much better result. Which is part of the reason why your rebuilt heads would be worth nothing to anyone else after you.. unknown quality work done with unknown quality parts for someone else (meaning no warranty to the new owner) on the least desireable stock castings... Transmissions dont knock, damper plates can be noisy when they bottom out from sketchily running engines... I see the allure of slapping it together and going skiing.. not everyone has a shop with the abilty to remove and rebuild an engine easily, I do and yet I have ran the rough out of a couple pretty bad knocks myself over the years and got some good skiing out of them before they exploded, but i certainly didnt throw money at anything else on the engine in the interim. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: IAughtNaut
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 5:32pm
not an expert by any means, but if they are cracked, won't you have to buy new ones anyway? seems like you can buy new for $X, or put them back, and if you have to buy new later because they're junk you still only spend $X. Or is there something I'm missing?
 anybody else see the key word there? I don't know your mechanical ability NG, but Joe's one of the few guys who can get away with a boat exploding on the water, he can get it back together with a nail file and a paper clip. If you can't, find the banging. ------------- bring the ruckus http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5347" rel="nofollow - 2000 Pro Air |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 6:54pm
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The engine isn't going to grenade at startup. I know it could happen, but my guess is that he can put it together, run it, get the oil changed, run some more, see if water in oil is cured, see what he hears for clunking, and not be any worse off than he is now. I could be wrong obviously, but I'd take the chance and I'm not good enough to do the rebuild myself. Not trying to put words in his mouth, but I think the OP is trying to get his boat running at minimum cost, see what he has, and take it from there. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: November-19-2013 at 7:36pm
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Ok what are the possiblities my motor is completely toast? I would think that there are greater chance that noise was from the trans... but im obviously not the one to know as this is my first time. any thing i can check now that could help find out if im in serious Sh*t? ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: 74Wind
Date Posted: November-20-2013 at 12:17am
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Newguy: Is the knock much more noticeable in reverse? ------------- 1974 Southwind 18 1975 Century Mark II |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: November-20-2013 at 1:07am
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Yes it is much more noticeable in reverse. Thoughts?? ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: 74Wind
Date Posted: November-20-2013 at 11:12am
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These other guys are the experts, but if it rattles in reverse I'd say dampener plate. ------------- 1974 Southwind 18 1975 Century Mark II |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: November-20-2013 at 11:32am
Bump ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: November-20-2013 at 11:33am
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Damper plate is surely high up on the suspect list. Do you recall your in gear idle RPMs? ------------- |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: November-20-2013 at 11:47am
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Hollywood - I do not buddy. Sorry. Well... lets play this game... if a guy were to need to extract this damper plate for inspection, how shall he tackle that? I would think that checking it while im at this phase is a good thing to do. ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: November-20-2013 at 11:57am
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Bell housing needs to come off to fully remove the damper plate. You could remove just the transmission and do a visual on one side of the damper only. ------------- |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: November-20-2013 at 12:08pm
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No one really has much of an idea of what is wrong without actually hearing what you heard. You have shown no gasket pictures that give enough detail to show a smoking gun for water leakage either.. that doesnt mean they arent there just that with the pics it cant really be seen over the interwebs A damper plate is more or less likely to make noise in reverse than forward, either way it is turning the same direction at the same speed with neglibly different loads. Call me crazy but when you run an engine with water in it (known fact from the milky oil), after you likely hydrolocked it (suspect because of the report that it was hard to crank, like with a dead battery, and due to the presence of water in the oil), and then it knocks - which is a typical noise associated with the things that break when you run an engine with water in the oil (main and rod bearings) and/or hydrolocked (bent rods).. .then I dont jump to the trans or damper as the culprit. Two completely unrelated problems is possible but a logical leap. Anyhow to look at that plate you either need to remove the engine or remove the transmission. If you have access to a lift remove the engine - as if you dont find something wrong with the plate then that would be the next step (outside of slapping it back together as is and running it) anyway. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: MI-nick
Date Posted: November-20-2013 at 2:58pm
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i'm seeing 4 options here... 1) rebuild heads, new gaskets, see how it runs. 2) new gaskets, see how it runs 3) new P heads, new gaskets, see how it runs 4) tear down engine -> inspect everything -> repair/replace -> have confidence it will run good. now, which option will have the best results with lowest cost and least time invested?? looks like 2 and 4 have the POTENTIAL for lowest cost. option 2 is definitely the time and INITIAL cost winner. 1 and 3 are very similar in cost...1 is maybe takes slightly longer...for me, I would eliminate option 1 and if you want "new" heads, go with option 3. considering it's winter and time is not such a factor...and i like to do this stuff...and you might end up doing it anyway...I would go with option 4 as overall best. ------------- As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure... |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: November-20-2013 at 3:07pm
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If you are soliciting votes ill throw my hand up for #2. And I agree #1 should be eliminated ------------- |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: November-21-2013 at 12:33am
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#2 & turn up the stereo, that's just another drum beat honey. Must be kibitzing season! ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: jbear
Date Posted: November-21-2013 at 2:12am
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lots of boats must be put away & the boredom is setting in.. john ------------- "Loud pipes save lives" AdamT sez "I'm Canadian and a beaver lover myself"... |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: November-21-2013 at 10:22am
Sorry to bore you John Thanks Guys. Im more than likely going to go for option 2. New head gaskets in intake gaskets and exhaust gaskets and get it started. It seems thats the best plan. I will do a couple oil changes and see if I can identify any knocking issues. Im not scared of putting money into the boat.... Im just trying not to spend money wear I really dont have to. ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: November-21-2013 at 11:12am
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Just call me up and we can order you a brand new ZR 450 with a 1:23 transmission :). ------------- |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: November-21-2013 at 2:03pm
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Andrew, if I had to guess I think John was just poking fun at us northern folks with our boats all winterized and stored for the winter while you (Houston) and John (Florida) can still splash your boats. If we can't run the boats, we go back and forth about gaskets and heads and intakes to while away the time till spring. Good luck with the re-assembly, let us know what you find. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: jbear
Date Posted: November-21-2013 at 9:01pm
Sorry Andrew..it was my feeble attempt at humor.. I know there is no humor in engine problems.. Would never on purpose make fun of any of my friends here on C/CFan. john ------------- "Loud pipes save lives" AdamT sez "I'm Canadian and a beaver lover myself"... |
Posted By: IAughtNaut
Date Posted: November-21-2013 at 9:13pm
oh you should try it...maybe not Andrew cause he has a real problem and he's doing the right thing by asking a lot of questions and, at least it appears, listening...but as for the rest of us? We're a vitual shooting gallery of ridicule targets! ------------- bring the ruckus http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5347" rel="nofollow - 2000 Pro Air |
Posted By: jbear
Date Posted: November-21-2013 at 9:29pm
right you are Adam..didn't think of quinner when I typed this..... john ------------- "Loud pipes save lives" AdamT sez "I'm Canadian and a beaver lover myself"... |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: November-21-2013 at 9:50pm
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I didn't mean to snap john. I apologize buddy. I'm just really nervous about this whole thing and I'm obviously out of my comfort zone. I made some well many key mistakes with this project as you all know... Ok so I can get my hands on an engine stand and I think I have the space for a complete rebuild but couldn't even tell you where to start if I went that route. This is only being brought up becuase I have thought about how pissed I would be and how much sh't my wife would give me if I re assemble and it's a bigger problem. The only thing is a complete tear down would take me a good while to complete as I am really busy these days. Yall think a complete novice could do something like that? I feel like my back is against the wall and this thing is going to keep causing me issues if I don't tear it down and rebuild, get some one to do that , or buy a motor already assembled from thunderbolt or something. What I'm looking for is advice on costs and feasibility. ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: November-21-2013 at 10:11pm
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Drop 10 yards and punt. Some guys here could figure out the water ingestion, tear it down and rebuild it just for fun without having to buy a single new tool or ask for help. Some people do not have theses skills and tools or the time or even desire to acquire them. Maybe your the guy who is better off spending that time making money. Maybe rebuilding your engine is great way to learn. Maybe it isn't. I couldn't say. You have some good motor guys in TX who could freshen it up nicely. Whatever you decide to do > good luck. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: lakedog55
Date Posted: November-21-2013 at 10:51pm
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Hi, No advice on the motor part. But with the wife seems better for me when I tell her it is majorly screwed up. Then act a little down hearted for a day or two. Who knows once offered to throw in some part money. Heck right now my gorilla brother stripped the carb bowls. Now the intake, manifolds, and heads are almost off. Been sitting on a cam, intake, and heads for over a year. Sometimes its better for them to enjoy the time on the water and not worry about the rest. Mike ------------- Lakedog55 |
Posted By: lakedog55
Date Posted: November-21-2013 at 11:09pm
 carb bowl bolts were stripped ------------- Lakedog55 |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: November-22-2013 at 2:25am
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[QUOTE=jbear] [QUOTE=newguy1986] [QUOTE=jbear] Would never on purpose make fun of any of my friends here on C/CFan. I guess I know where I stand with you posting pictures of my white legs----- ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: November-22-2013 at 9:40am
Hard to say not knowing your skills and budget, but here's my thoughts. Someone with no rebuild experience probably shouldn't do their own rebuild, with no help, as a first time. If you have someone with experience who will work with you on it, or know a mechanic well enough to put it in their shop and work on it side by side, then I think you'd enjoy the experience. On your own, no tools, no experience, no help, then don't try the rebuild yourself. Option 2 that you decided on - why would your wife have a problem if it doesn't work, it's just an almost no cost re-assembly and trial. Splash it and try it, if you need a rebuild you've only wasted some time and a set of gaskets. If you really have had it with the unknowns, just want the boat to work, then bite the bullet and find a capable mechanic to do a rebuild. I don't know the cost, others here can give you an estimate so you know what you're looking at. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: November-22-2013 at 12:01pm
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I'm with several others here. If money/wife happiness/family time on the water is the priority, just put a set of gaskets in and bolt it back together. Give it a go as Roger would say. Minimal cost and your time are the only loss. First step is finding the water intrusion. Starting it up and running it to find out where that issue is isn't going to hurt it the engine any more than it already is if indeed there is a knock in the rotating assembly someplace. I'm still guessing the knock is the damper. They do rattle at idle RPM and your description of the knock was all at idle speeds. You're admittedly a rookie at this so you immediately start thinking the worst case scenario, aka...rebuild, or replace the engine like you also seem set on doing as an option. How about this for an example (keep in mind purely an example), even a fresh rebuilld or a new long block can potentially become scrap iron if you were to bolt on the same leaking exhaust manifolds that have started this whole witch hunt in the first place. Throw it back together and find out why you're getting water in the oil and fix that. Then we worry about the knock. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: November-22-2013 at 12:59pm
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Andrew, you really need to spend some time on this project taking and posting some pictures, you have some of the most motor capable guy's I know following this thread, give them as much visual information as possible and I guarantee they will help you sort it out. Good Luck!! |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: November-22-2013 at 7:12pm
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When you throw it back together.. carefully, then you do a compression test.. preferably before replumbing the fuel and ignition systems and adding new oil.. then report back results. Borrow a tester at the local autozone if you have to.. but definitely a good idea before getting it all done and fired up with water and oil. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: November-22-2013 at 10:16pm
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Possibly a cooling circuit test (engine isolated) at 15 PSI would be worthwhile. I think you can rent a radiator pressure tester from auto part store that would do this. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: November-29-2013 at 2:11pm
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Weel guys im going to get a gasket set and put the boat back as you all have advised. I have been cleaning up all the sealing surfaces which is taking some time but im getting them smooth. any advice on that? and also I have been looking at the summit racing fel pro gaskets and it seems there are multiple options. Whats the best buy for this application? ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: November-29-2013 at 3:20pm
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Use only marine parts and be really careful setting the intake to be sure it's sealed ------------- This is the life |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: December-02-2013 at 1:51pm
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looking at ordering the Fel-pro 17261 gasket kit from summit... can any one confirm? also any place better to purchase it? ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: December-02-2013 at 2:19pm
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Seems like a lot of money must be because of the marine label. For what it is worth I used Felpro automotive gaskets for years with no problem. I have seen marine head gaskets for 30 ea on other sites, 90 more for all other the gaskets in that kit that are nothing special. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: January-12-2014 at 2:19pm
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Hey guys, I am trying to figure out if I ordered the correct gasket and I keep second guessing myself. I am questioning the riser gasket (square gasket between exhaust manifold and exhaust riser) the ones i ordered match up perfect but one port is covered . http://www.marineengine.com/newparts/part_details.php?pnum=SIE18-8504 can some one confirm if this is correct? ------------- 1986sn 2001 |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-12-2014 at 2:39pm
| The rear port is covered, which forces water up and over the riser instead of it all going out the lower one. |
Posted By: newguy1986
Date Posted: January-12-2014 at 2:40pm
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thanks TRBenj for the help. Im always greatful ------------- 1986sn 2001 |