Trouble on ignition street
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Boat Maintenance
Forum Discription: Discuss maintenance of your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26922
Printed Date: November-18-2024 at 9:30pm
Topic: Trouble on ignition street
Posted By: Big Pappa
Subject: Trouble on ignition street
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 1:40am
So I spent this afternoon troubleshooting my ignition system trying to find the cause of my no/ weak spark. Well as I was looking I found that my coil was starting to leak some oil (Only around 20 hours on this one).  So I made a run to the auto parts store and picked up a new one, it even came with a new ignition resistor. So I came home and installed the new coil cleaning the connections that were on there. I then installed the new resistor cleaning those connections as well. I tried it and I was getting spark at the plug but it was not real consistent or strong. I tried at the coil and got a nice strong spark once, then tried again and got noting, again and got spark. It is weird. So i pulled the wires on my ignition switch and cleaned all of them making sure there was not a problem there. Unfortunately that did not fix anything. I also pulled the distributor cap and cleaned all the posts on the inside and then cleaned the rotor and the star looking sprocket on the distributor shaft for the EI. I checked and I have 12v at the positive side of the coil with the key on. One other thing I noticed is that I get spark from the coil every time I turn on the key. I also noticed that now I get one spark sometimes when I start turning over the engine but nothing else after that. Doing my research I found out that I have an early version of an electronic ignition system. Where I am now I am thinking that this is the problem. I wanted to get your guys thoughts of other things to try or check first before I start throwing parts at the problem. So what do you guys think? ------------- http://bit.ly/Mghpvx" rel="nofollow - Big Pappa http://bit.ly/L4zRW0" rel="nofollow - My Project |
Replies:
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 10:44am
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Check the grounding of the EI inside the dizzy. If that is good then the EI isn't. Time for a mallory E spark kit, or new dizzy, I think. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: Big Pappa
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 12:51pm
I do not have any wire connections inside the distributor, so I am assuming (Yea I know what that means.  ) that the EI grounds using the screws that hold it down? I have taken this loose to check things 3 different times to check things under it and just looking to see if I missed anything. Am I correct about the ground? I have not thought about the EI ground but that does make sense.Here is a look inside my dizzy.  ------------- http://bit.ly/Mghpvx" rel="nofollow - Big Pappa http://bit.ly/L4zRW0" rel="nofollow - My Project |
SNobsessed wrote:Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 12:56pm
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FYI, that is a Prestolite EI kit. PCM branded it as their own for a while. I believe it requires that you bypass the ballast resistor... but that may already be the case if youre getting +12v at the + side of the coil. ------------- |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 2:36pm
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I know on a points distributor that it needs to be grounded,not sure about those. But you did paint that engine all pretty,maybe you need to clean those grounds up. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Big Pappa
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 2:47pm
Is there a wire on the points that goes to a ground? I only have 2 wires coming from the distributor and they both go to the coil (Purple to the + side and black to the - side). There are no wire connections inside the distributor that is what lead me to believe it grounds through the mount. I did sand the block to bare metal when I connected my battery ground. I did the same to the engine harness where it connects to the intake at the back of the engine. I will double check those tonight and put a little dielectric grease on them. I don't think I did that when I connected them before. ------------- http://bit.ly/Mghpvx" rel="nofollow - Big Pappa http://bit.ly/L4zRW0" rel="nofollow - My Project |
Posted By: Big Pappa
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 2:48pm
Good to know thanks for the info!! ------------- http://bit.ly/Mghpvx" rel="nofollow - Big Pappa http://bit.ly/L4zRW0" rel="nofollow - My Project |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 2:59pm
Nope. The module needs 12v to operate (purple wire), and its easiest to steal it from the + side of the coil. The black wire is the same as a points dizzy- its the trigger that tells the coil when to fire its primary voltage (through the cap/rotor and to the plugs). Youre hooked up correctly. Weak/intermittent spark makes sense if youre currently running the module through the ballast resistor (assuming its not supposed to). Might want to call SkiDIM to see if they recommend bypassing it (connecting all wires to a single post). My bet is that they will. Thats how my Prestolite EI kit was set up for the short time I ran it. ------------- |
Posted By: Big Pappa
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 3:07pm
The way my resistor is hooked up right now the Purple wire to the coil and the red wire to the choke are hooked to the same post on the resistor. There are no other wires hooked to the resistor and I have 12v at the resistor post, at the choke and on the + post of the coil. ------------- http://bit.ly/Mghpvx" rel="nofollow - Big Pappa http://bit.ly/L4zRW0" rel="nofollow - My Project |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 3:27pm
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Then its already bypassed. ------------- |
Posted By: mark c
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 3:27pm
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Electronic ignitions do not require a ballast resistor, those were used in cars with points to limit voltage thru the coil and points to prevent the contacts in the points from burning up over time. You will always have 12V at output side of the ballast resistor and at the coil if the engine isn't running, the balast resistor will only drop the voltage to the coil when there is current flowing thru the circuit. (E=I*R) If the engine isn't running theres no current flowing thru the coil and points, so it should read battery voltage, No current (I) = no voltage drop. . If you check it with the engine running you will see a drop of about 3V from battery voltage. Here's a link to a similar presolite electronic ignition system installation instructions. Look at the bottom of page 4. http://www.hot-spark.com/Installing-Hot-Spark-Prestolite.pdf |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 3:29pm
You'll want to be careful with a blanket statement like that. Certain EI conversions (or full up distributors) still require the use of the ballast. I believe the Mallory optically triggered modules (Unilite) fall into this category. Its best to follow the instructions that come with your individual kit. ------------- |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 3:41pm
High voltage going through the point set does not burn them up. In fact, a lower voltage means a higher watage requirement. This is your very basic Ohms law. The condensor is there to prevent the arc flash when they open which if not quenched, will burn the point contacts. The lower voltage is to protect the coil. Read up on old 6 volt and even 9 volt system used on tractors and you will find that when the move to 12 was made, they used the same coils but added the resistor. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: mark c
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 4:46pm
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When the contact points are closed the primary winding of the ignition is connected in series with the battery and carries an electrical current of about 4 amps. Since the points are shorting across the capacitor, the capacitor does nothing at that time. The core of the transformer is an electromagnet with magnetic field induced by the current flowing in the primary winding. When the points open to break the ground contact the primary current must stop flowing, and the magnetic field in the transformer will collapse. The collapsing magnetic field forces current to continue flowing in the same direction momentarily, and that current will charge up the capacitor. Forward inertia of this forced current raises voltage at the capacitor momentarily to about 300 volts, at which time this high voltage stops the current. The current then reverses direction, being driven backward by the high voltage at the capacitor. After the charge in the capacitor is depleted, inertia of the current in the transformer continues to drive the current in that direction to charge the capacitor in opposite polarity. The cycle then reverses. The result is an electrical ringing like a bell which reduces rapidly with time. The initial 300 volt spike in the primary winding will drive an output in the secondary winding up to 30,000 volts. The output current going to the spark plug will likewise ring in harmony with the input current, for as long as the output voltage is high enough for current to jump the spark gap under compression. Assuming the initial spark ignites the fuel air mixture, combustion pressure will rise rapidly, and the spark will stop almost immediately as voltage falls. But none of this deals directly with the electronics that control the "contacts" in a magnetic point set. This part of the system either needs 12 Volts to operate, or like was said before will operate under the same 9 or 10V circuit that ulimately powers the coil. The older cars that used resistor wires had a bypass wire connected to the starter coil that provided full battery voltage to the coil during cranking to ensure there was sufficient voltage (an current) to the coil to fire the engine during starting. Also the original coils that used external ballast resistors had a lower primary coil resistance down in th 2 ohm range. Depending on what coil you had, and what was replaced you may now have a higher internal resistance coil, further limiting your primary circuit current flow, and hence your spark energy. Make sure the coil you just installed is the correct one, if you have a meter, measure the resistance from + to - on each of them and make sure they are not radically different. How does you capacitor look, is it bulging anywhere, and does it have a good ground connection, because thats a good place to start looking when you have a weak or inconsistant spark. I had a condenser break off (rotor wire sawed right thru the lead wire) and the engine would start fine because the circuit was getting the higher voltage thru the bypass circuit but would not run once the key was released. Took a while to find that problem. |
Posted By: Big Pappa
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 4:53pm
Thanks for the through reply but I no longer have points in my boat. The previous owner replaced them with a EI unit sometime before I owned the boat. The boat ran perfectly before I started my stringer rebuild and now it will not run since I put the engine back in 4 years later. That is what I am trying to correct.  There is a picture above of the inside of my distributor as it is today.------------- http://bit.ly/Mghpvx" rel="nofollow - Big Pappa http://bit.ly/L4zRW0" rel="nofollow - My Project |
Posted By: mark c
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 5:22pm
| The magnetic pickup is now your points, the contacts are just being opened, closed and timed electronically instead of mechanically. The system still works the same way, theres just less wear induced failures. |
Posted By: Big Pappa
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 5:29pm
Agreed, you were asking about the condition of my capacitor which I no longer have though. ------------- http://bit.ly/Mghpvx" rel="nofollow - Big Pappa http://bit.ly/L4zRW0" rel="nofollow - My Project |
Posted By: mark c
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 5:50pm
| You have to have a condesnor somewhere. It may be built into your electronic module (I don't know yours specifically) but the system won't work without one. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 6:16pm
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Kris the distributor just grounds thru the clamp. My Dad had a PCM powered center console that started going thru condencers. Being a center console you could not see in very good so finally he pulled the distributor and found the clamp and block rusting.Cleaned it up and did not have any trouble again. Just a thought. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Big Pappa
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 6:28pm
Good to know and it is very possible that that could be rusty. I will give that a good cleaning and see what happens. ------------- http://bit.ly/Mghpvx" rel="nofollow - Big Pappa http://bit.ly/L4zRW0" rel="nofollow - My Project |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 7:16pm
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Mark, Wow, that's a great explanation on how an ignition system works electrically. Your profile says you are an engineer so it must be in the electrical field? There is one statement in it that has me curious about what boat you have or boats you have had. That's the reference to the full voltage bypass off the start relay during cranking. Not all marinized engines use that feature. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: mark c
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 8:28pm
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Not all but some do, all older cars do. Like my 69 Camaro. Probably started to go away when GM introduced the HEI, 1974 or 75 maybe. Its not a bad thing to have if you've got an engine that is hard to start. you just run a 12 or 14 gauge wire from the starter relay straight to the + side of the coil, then whenever the boat is being cranked you get full voltage to the coil, and a more powerfull spark. GM engines can get the 12v from the aux contact on the starter solenoid, fords and chryslers are going to have to pull it off the starter relay since they don't have an integral starter solenoid with the extra contacts on them specifically for this purpose. I have been in and around boats since 1958, made my first trip in my grandfathers pacemaker when I was two weeks old. From then until I joined the navy he (USCGA Commander) went thru another half dozen Pacemakers, and Chris Crafts, in the 32 to 36' range. My own boats were almost entirely outboards, from 8 footers with a 3HP Johnson, up to my last boat a 93 mph 17' Hydrostream Viking with a 235HP Johnson, and everything in between, wood, fiberglass aluminum, if it could float we would figure a way to put to big an engine on it. Now I'm working on bringing that nasty 87 BFN I bought a couple of weeks ago back to life. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 8:34pm
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Mark, So, it doesn't sound like you are a boat owner but rather just into cars? How did you end up on CCfan?  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: mark c
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 8:41pm
| see my edited reply above |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 8:42pm
| Lets see some pics of the BFN! Good to set up a diary as well. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 8:53pm
Mark, Sorry but I didn't remember!  Plus, I should have gone back and checked your previous posts.Yes, how are you doing on the BFN? http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26793&KW=&PID=342608&title=87-bfn-gel-coat-hull-colors#342608" rel="nofollow - The only picture I could find was in this thread where you were asking about the colors. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Big Pappa
Date Posted: July-11-2012 at 11:58pm
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Ok, so I went through ans made all my block grounds super clean and reassembled them with dielectric grease. I then pulled the distributor mount piece and stripped the bottom of that, the block where that sits and the part of the distributor all down to shiny bare metal. Then reassembled with dielectric grease. Next I pulled the electronic ignition module and cleaned that, the lip where that sits in the dizzy, the tabs the screws screw into and the screws that hold it all together. I greased all that up and put it back together. Oh and while I was in there I gave the mechanical advance a squirt of some lube and got them moving real smooth. I put it all back together, crossed my fingers and gave it a go. Same thing at the coil. I get a spark when I turn the key on but that is it. If I wiggle the key a little as I am cranking I can get a spark here and there but it is not something that is repeatable. So is it sounding like mallory E spark time or is there anything else to try? ------------- http://bit.ly/Mghpvx" rel="nofollow - Big Pappa http://bit.ly/L4zRW0" rel="nofollow - My Project |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 1:17am
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Kris - You can get a replacement module if you want to stay with this dizzy: http://marineengineparts.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page442.html" rel="nofollow - Module PS here is a tip from that site- Most non-spark issues are a result of improper air gap between trigger wheel "teeth" (high point of trigger wheel) and the face of the sensor (pick up), gap must be between .008" to .010", use a non-magnetic feeler gauge. Tighten the sensor retaining screw to 3 to 5 inch pounds of torque. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 12:46pm
I think, you do not have a clue, go back to working on your auto.  ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 12:51pm
Your module is toast, if you replace with a Mallory E Spark , the ballast and solenoid will be used. Normal run voltage at coil is 9/10 volts, while crank voltage , thru the solenoid will increase to a full 12 volts at the coil for crank only. CorrectCraftParts{ 318-299-8547} has a Mallory conversion for you Prestolite. ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 1:01pm
Just to to look at the simple stuff first: You are sure you are getting consistent voltage from your key switch. That is, when it's in the on position, you are always getting voltage, right? |
Posted By: mark c
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 2:04pm
How does the coil get 12v during cranking, if I don't have a clue, and boats don't have a connection between the starter solenoid and the ignition coils + terminal? You sugesting he buy a solenoid, and or install the wiring that boats don't have to get a full 12V to the coil for starting? 
|
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 2:13pm
No one ever said that boats dont utilize the I terminal on the solenoid to give a full +12v to the coil during cranking. It was stated that not all marinization companies used it. PCM didnt, but Indmar did, for example. The Dr's suggestion here is to utilize the feature when installing the Mallory Espark kit on a PCM motor. ------------- |
Posted By: mark c
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 2:17pm
| Go back to the post above the original suggestion to install one, I said not all, but some do have this feature and I got a you don't have a clue reply. so either i don't have a clue that some had it and some don't or I don't have a clue about, why and when they were used in the automotive industry. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 2:25pm
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Im not going to speak to that particular comment, but its true that PCM did not use the feature, and it shouldnt be required with the stock (points) set up, nor would it have been used with Big's current Prestolite EI conversion. The Mallory would be a different story. ------------- |
Posted By: Big Pappa
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 2:29pm
Yes that is correct, when the key is on I have voltage. ------------- http://bit.ly/Mghpvx" rel="nofollow - Big Pappa http://bit.ly/L4zRW0" rel="nofollow - My Project |
Posted By: Big Pappa
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 2:53pm
Woo Hoo This tip did it!!! I just went down and checked my air gap and it was way off. I reset it to .009" and checked the spark from the coil and it was perfect blue spark. Hooked everything back up and gave the key a turn and got a little blip. 2nd turn and it fired right up. Can you all see the grin on my face through the computer screen!! This was just firing on starter fluid (working at home and did not want to smell like gas). I will pour some gas down the carb this afternoon and let it run for a bit. I am pumped right now though!!------------- http://bit.ly/Mghpvx" rel="nofollow - Big Pappa http://bit.ly/L4zRW0" rel="nofollow - My Project |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 3:25pm
Awesome, that's good to hear 
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 4:14pm
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Kris ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 4:29pm
[QUOTE=mark c] . so either i don't have a clue that some had it and some don't or I don't have a clue  We are working on a 'MARINE IGNITION" not an auto. Please post with known info and not your own idea how stuff works. Very litle info from auto,s apply to marine ignition systems. The Prestolite EI uses no ballast , Mallory chose to incorporate this lower voltage to keep down heat inside the module, while using the "I" term. on the starter solenoid for that extra voltage, 12 volts to the coil, only during cranking. The lower voltage will increase the service life of said EI module. This will also work for the OEM Prestolite module as well.Both Presolite and the Petronix have a high failure rate due to the increased voltage applied. This being said, the Mallory will come with instructions of how to properly wire the newer , Mallory,module and the use of a ballast and the solenoid connection to complete the upgrade...Billy ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: mark c
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 5:03pm
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You are of course kidding. The basics of an internal combustion engine operation is the same wether said engine is in a boat, car, or airplane. Sure, there different peices and parts that make the engine operate correctly in the vehicle its installed in, but they all work the same way. You will notice I said he could connect the coil to the aux contact on the starter solenoid (the "I" terminal) and it would provide full battery volatge during cranking but revert back to the balast resistor as soon as the key was released to run. Where do you think these ignition systems come from the marine world or automotive world? And of course you always follow the manufacturers installation instructions when you put any part on. Doesn't really matter in this case, his module wasn't fried, and it did not need 12v during cranking to operate, it was an out of adjustment magnetic pickup. |
Posted By: boat dr
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 6:05pm
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Glad you found our site, we will all be smarter now that you are here. ------------- boat dr /diaries/details.asp?ID=4631 - 1949 Dart /diaries/details.asp?ID=1533 - 1964 American Skier |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 6:22pm
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Learn some things, explain some things. Bust some balls and get your balls busted. That's why we're all here, right
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Posted By: mark c
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 8:23pm
I do try to do my part. 
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Posted By: mark c
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 8:24pm
I do try to do my part.
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-12-2012 at 8:53pm
And double post as well!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |