Whacha Think Replace or Machine?
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28811
Printed Date: September-28-2024 at 3:33pm
Topic: Whacha Think Replace or Machine?
Posted By: Foot_Fungus
Subject: Whacha Think Replace or Machine?
Date Posted: January-22-2013 at 12:06am
Pulled the heads and got a few pricing quotes. Looks like to do a basic valve job, hot tank, deck if needed will be right around $250 for the set(GT40s). Or I can get a freshly rebuilt set of GT40Ps from Clearwater for $560 shipped to my door. After talking to some of my Ford friends I was leaning towards getting mine machined and asking the guy to work on the bowls a tad too(2 different Ford engine builders said that is where the 'money' is at for gains on the non-p 40s), but after really taking a look at mine and finding 2 micro cracks I'm wondering if I'm going to pay ~$100 to have them magnafluxed only to find out I should of gone the P route from the beginning. So take a look at the pics and give me some opinions. The cracks do NOT go into the valve bowl areas, they seem to only be inbetween the intake/exhaust valves and a little down the slants before the seat edge. The other head is fine from what I can visually see. The last pics are just of the valve conditions, which is not what I would expect from a ~500hr boat. Granted I did have a few carboned/mucked up valve seats that were leaking.    ------------- '94SN Restoration underway... |
Replies:
Posted By: kapla
Date Posted: January-22-2013 at 12:20am
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why risk it? i´d got with the fresh gt40p! you don´t want to de the job twice! ------------- <a href="">1992 ski nautique |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: January-22-2013 at 12:42am
| I agree with Kap... for th 150 peace of mind, you could have the better head.. keep in mind that if your ford friends are car guys, the P's are more difficult to work with on the spark plug side of things, and may taint their opinions. the P's work good on boats because the exh manifold goes up and back, not down and back. |
Posted By: Foot_Fungus
Date Posted: January-22-2013 at 1:15am
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well if it was only another $150 I would be all about it, but its $300 more, which if I get these heads redone and save the difference I can get me a nice new RPM or Stealth manifold. Its right inbetween 'no brainer' and 'way too expensive' lol. I call it no mans land. ------------- '94SN Restoration underway... |
Posted By: tbeard
Date Posted: January-22-2013 at 2:28am
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I just rebuilt my 454 and I replaced all the valves and springs. I do not like to risk the valve train parts. Had a valve head break off in a 396 HP motor years ago...It did unbeliveable damage and cracked the block. ------------- Thanks.......Tom |
Posted By: Got Tiques
Date Posted: January-22-2013 at 6:53am
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IMHO, I bought (4) GT40 P heads from Clearwater in early 2012 for (2) 302 rebuilds. My engine rebuild guy (Dave Hunt's Machine. Schenectady, NY) recommended that he re-grind the valve seats, as the contact area was out of spec on all (4) from Clearwater. Also, one valve had to be replaced as it didn't match the rest, and the springs all needed to be replaced, even though Clearwater said they would work with the slightly hopped cam; Pressures were not in spec. It wasn't such a huge deal as my guy upped the CR by cutting the heads, (and lots of other work on the block) any way, but I question Clearwater's quality on heads that are ready to bolt on. Close but not right. That motor is now in the '78 Tique that runs into the mid 50's. Todd ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4811" rel="nofollow - '78 Ski Tique |
Posted By: Foot_Fungus
Date Posted: January-22-2013 at 11:58am
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Todd, appreciate the input. I would be beyond ticked if I got the heads and still had to have them machined. ------------- '94SN Restoration underway... |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: January-22-2013 at 12:48pm
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Hey John, To me it's a no brainer. Get the P's. Face the facts, your heads are cracked. I don't care if it is just between the valves. A crack is a crack. Time for new heads. But that's just me. Todd, About Clearwater's heads. With all due respect, I agree and I disagree. Yes, I can see your points and I certainly see where you're coming from as far as the quality aspect goes. You have certainly gone about things the right way and verified their work and quality. You obviously wanted to make sure that you're getting every little bit out of your build that you can. I would do exactly the same thing. For the avarage Joe (nothing personally intended Joe!!!) looking to replace a set of worn out, cracked factory heads on a bone stock motor with 500, 1000 or more hours, these heads are awesome. There have probably been dozens of pairs bought and bolted on by our members here without so much as a hitch. For the average wrenchers (or even below average) who, in most cases have probably never done anything like this before these are indeed bolt on and go. With factory valve train and valve covers, maybe a new aluminum intake you can expect some significant power gains for very little money. Start to talk about spring pressures, pushrod length, valve contact area, etc. and most average wrenches are completely lost. Face it, you're still only forking out about $550. If you want the quality that you're talking about, go spend another $500-$600 on top of that and buy a set of Dart or RHS heads. You want quality, you're gonna pay for it. You said yourself, the Clearwater heads are close but not right. For you or I, close is never good enough. It is, however, more than adequate for many, many others that have seen significant increases for very little money. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: Florida Inboards
Date Posted: January-22-2013 at 2:21pm
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Could not agree more, Cracked between the valve seats I have tossed many a head due to that and will not install on my customers engines. I have purchased out of the junk yards a few sets of GT-40P heads and sent them to our local head re builder and have done well cost wise. provided it is a standard recondition and to open up the bolt holes usually runs less than $350,After junk yard cost have had around $400.00 total into them and I know what I Got! ------------- Money Talks! BS Walks! and loose change rides the bus!!! |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: January-22-2013 at 3:00pm
you said you were going to have the heads magnafluxed for another 100 or so, and with the crack that needs to be welded, I figured you were in for at least another 100... and you were talking about having some port/polish work done... so not exact math, but I don't think the extra is worth fretting about too much. 500 bucks for heads is good money in my book, but I like to do big jobs once and be done with them. |
Foot_Fungus wrote:Posted By: bhectus
Date Posted: January-22-2013 at 3:22pm
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Don't forget the approx $100 in gaskets.... I bought a set of GT40P heads from Clearwater and had Woody put them on my old '96. Boat ran great with them and now for its current owner in Austin, TX. ------------- '02 Ski Nautique 196 w/ 5.7 Apex bowtie - Sold '87 Barefoot - sold '97 Super Sport Nautique - originally custom built for Walt Meloon '97 Ski Nautique '83 SN 2001 |
Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: January-22-2013 at 5:59pm
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Replace |
Posted By: Behl
Date Posted: January-22-2013 at 6:41pm
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Try looking at Tri-State Cylinder Head. They carry GT-40p Heads. ------------- Steve in Indy http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1702&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1976&yrend=1980" rel="nofollow - Redone 1977 Ski Tique |
Posted By: Foot_Fungus
Date Posted: January-22-2013 at 9:36pm
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tri state has yet to respond to any of my 4 emails or return my calls. However I think I'm calling Clearwater tomorrow to put in an order. He said it would take him a few days to drill them out to 351 sized headbolts and put in brass plugs, but I'd have them within a week. ------------- '94SN Restoration underway... |
Posted By: Got Tiques
Date Posted: January-22-2013 at 11:42pm
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John, I did not try to sound too down, and did have an excellent experience with Clearwater heads customer service, price and delivery, and will work with them again. I did not go back after any claims, but will be more questioning on my next order. They run a competitive business, and sound like they would honor any special requests or double checks. Let me know what you think!! Todd ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=4811" rel="nofollow - '78 Ski Tique |
Posted By: LaurelLakeSkier
Date Posted: January-23-2013 at 12:21am
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I'll also put in a vote for replacing the heads with a pair from Clearwater. I put a order a pair of GT40-p heads from them for my 351 several years ago and as Eddie says they are a great upgrade. Clearwater gave me great service. After mounting the heads I've run the boat daily for barefooting over the last few summers with good success. ------------- The world is full of youth—what we need is a fountain of smart! |
Posted By: 74Wind
Date Posted: January-23-2013 at 12:25am
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See lot of similar threads, always puzzled..exactly what indicates actual imminent failure/justifies these many rebuild/valve job/etc discussions? On this thread you're talking about a boat that is 20 years newer than either of mine. I've got a Thermo-Electron 351 in my 74 Southwind which consistently runs great (knock on wood). Not original owner & no indication there's ever been any serious work done (or needed). Similarly, have Chrysler 360 in my Century (original owner on this one, my father bought new in 1975) and it has never had a valve job or any sort of rebuild, and also runs like a champ. Change fluids regularly/etc and treat properly, but adhere to "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy, which has always served us well. Art thou just uber-mechanical and forever in search of the perfect tweak, or are there some specific symptoms that we must all watch for? ------------- 1974 Southwind 18 1975 Century Mark II |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: January-23-2013 at 2:09am
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Low compression is the #1 issue that drives a valve regrind. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: January-23-2013 at 11:23am
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+1 with the pros. That crack will get worse. If you watch an old pro check a set, he'll look there first for the reason you have. I had a less that wonderful experience with CCH. They put used parts on mine and I ended up replacing the valve train. That may be their standard practice and not always a bad one...but they didn't tell me that. And they knurled the guides.  ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: Foot_Fungus
Date Posted: January-23-2013 at 11:24am
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these engines are very very picky about their maintenance. Run cheap gas/oil, and always overdue with your routine maintenance and you'll pay for it. the PO(s) of mine neglected this boat and now I'm paying for it. Not a big deal in my case bc I got it for a steal with the intentions of a complete boat ovrehaul. So now I'm doing it right and basically building a new SN from the ground up the way I want it. In my case the aint broke just means aint broke yet, so I better just fix it now while I have it apart lol. Todd - No worries I appreciate the unfiltered feedback. I checked with a few of my buddies from the Tampa area and they said the same thing. Clearwater is essentially a farm shop for heads. Do they do good work, yes. But would an anal retentive builder be able to find some minor flaws, yes again. When you're turning that many heads you're bound to have a few issues inherent with that kind of volume. They all had positive things to say, but mentioned that a good machine shop will still turn out a better product. At any rate hopefully I'll have my heads in the next 2 weeks and I can start throwing this puppy back together before the upholstery gets here. Its nice being able to just wipe my hands where ever I want  ------------- '94SN Restoration underway... |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: January-23-2013 at 11:56am
Jeff, I think most of the time it's responding to another issue that caused the head to crack or warp or head gasket to let go. Water in the oil, an engine that overheated or degrading performance are probably the most common factors. I would say overheating as probably the biggest culprit. How many posts do you see about engines that get hot at idle but OK at speed or vise versa or just plain overheated????? Ditto for water in the oil. Every one of those posts has the potential a cracked or warped head or a blown head gasket is the cause/effect. Then you have the fatigue created if/when that engine got hot. It might not manifest itself right away but could very well cause problems several hundred hours after the actual incident. Pat yourself on the back for for doing your preventative maintenance like you're supposed to. That makes all the difference in the world. If everybody did that like they're supposed to, I believe 90% of those posts get eliminated as well as the resultant head replacement. You'll always have some that fail from stress and/or wear over the years but that really is not that often if you do your part. The last one is the guys that just want to rebuild and/or pump up the performance of their engines. I think they are really in a minority for the most part but driven by perfection, performance and/or necessity due to the above mentioned issues. I truly believe that most everyone here is of the same thinking you are. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Unfortunately, s**t happens. Whether self induced or a PO that had an issue that finally manifested itself. Maybe even just stress and/or wear has finally reared it's ugly head. No matter the case. You're story is what most strive for and a testament to what can be achieved with the right perventative maintenamce, a lot of common sense and just a little bit of knowledge. Congrats!!!!! ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: 74Wind
Date Posted: January-24-2013 at 12:43am
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Backfoot: Nice analysis, thanks. Yep, was taught as a wee lad to always watch the temp and never gun it cold. Good temp & oil guages (& tach) and a watchful eye and lifes good. My ampmeter and hourmeter haven't worked since I got it (maybe next season ;)]) Surprisingly the speedometer works and is right on the money. ------------- 1974 Southwind 18 1975 Century Mark II |