97 GT40 EFI Not starting
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29539
Printed Date: October-09-2024 at 3:19am
Topic: 97 GT40 EFI Not starting
Posted By: maioman
Subject: 97 GT40 EFI Not starting
Date Posted: April-17-2013 at 4:34pm
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Good Afternoon, This is my first post but not the first time I have been on this site. The knowledge base on this forum is unbelievably deep which has been one reason I have never needed to post anything.. Until now.. I recently had the lower end of my GT40 rebuilt (long story but had water in the cylinders), so I got the engine back in the boat. Everything is back together back and I start the engine.. No Problem, starts up. I quickly turned it off, since I didn't hook up the H2O. I know.. I know... Kills the impeller.. So I go to start it again, and it cranks fine.. But does not start.. Here is a list of what I checked. Fuel Relay - Replaced the relay and confirmed working properly (Power to the Low & High pressure fuel pumps.) Fuel Pressure - I turn the key and I get about 40PSI on the fuel rail. When I crank it it bounces a little but does stay around 40PSI Timing - I have confirmed that the rotor (in the distributer cap) is approximately pointed to the #1 spark plug on the compression stroke for #1 Cylinder. And #1 cylinder is to the front right facing the bow of the boat. Compression - I didn't really check this but with all the spark plugs out it blows a lot of air out the spark plug holes. Spark - I checked the spark by grounding the spark plug and it did have a nice spark. I even removed the center wire of the distributor cap and checked the spark there and I got it for every cylinder (8 per revolution of the distributer) Computer (ECU) constant power fuse - Mine is located near the battery, so I checked that and it looked good.. I pulled the connector to the ECU (single red wire) in the engine compartment and got the 12V there too.. I am assuming if the fuel relay engages, the ECU is working. Lanyard safety switch - 100% jumped.. (did this a long time ago) From what I can tell the lanyard safety switch will deactivate the fuel pumps.. Neutral switch (transmission) - works as designed, in the neutral position is is closed. I am really coming up with nothing here.. A couple of other interesting clues 1. When I removed the spark plugs after trying to start the engine they didn't smell like gas.. I cranked this thing a bunch of times and I would expect there to be some gas hanging around.. but I didn't smell anything on the plugs. Humm.. 2. When I tried to start with staring fluid, it still did not start, so I am thinking fuel issue.. I was even thinking so far as the intake valves might not be moving, but I would not have compression. So I am not sure there.. Any help from the Nautique GT40 guru's would be well appreciated.. I am totally open to trying anything at this point.. I am a real nut about reading everything I can and not asking stupid repetitive questions that have been answered before, so please forgive me if this situation has been covered.. If it has, I could not find it. Thanks in advance, -Chris |
Replies:
Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: April-17-2013 at 5:33pm
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You sound kinda difficult to train. Even after being in here you start the boat with no water???? That's just so basic. Sounds like you know just enough to get yourself in trouble. I'm pretty sure stupid repetitious questions are what make this place go round so don't worry about that. Welcome to CCF somebody with GT40 experience will be along shortly to assist you. ------------- This is the life |
Posted By: maioman
Date Posted: April-17-2013 at 5:55pm
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Hi GlassSeeker, Thank you for the reply. You are correct, it does hurt the impeller if you do run the raw water pump dry. I have read that many times. I replace my impeller (every year) I use some dish soap to help the install the rubber impeller and lubricate on the first startup. This year was no different. So, I am not sure that the 5 seconds it was started would cause the lack of restart.. Are you saying that this is the cause of the issue?? Maybe someone with some actual knowledge of the GT40 engine could help with this issue.. |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: April-17-2013 at 5:57pm
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Have you checked that little fuel line in the FCC for cracks? Also check that there is fuel in the FCC and it didn't get an air lock, since you had the motor out there may have been air in the fuel line. |
Posted By: maioman
Date Posted: April-17-2013 at 6:16pm
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Hi gun-driver, Thats a good thought.. I did replace the FCC hose with the kit from SKIDIM a couple of years back.. But that fits with my issue.. I will check tonight.. That would also explain why the plugs were dry with no fuel.. Your thinking is the high pressure fuel pump is not supplying enough fuel to the injectors?? right?? I will check it.. Thank you very much!!! |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: April-17-2013 at 9:36pm
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Jumper the test connector fuel pump wire to earth so your fuel pumps run all the time just to make sure the fuel rails are primed fully. Are you checking fuel pressure at Schrader valve on the rail or at the FCC. Remove the valve in the Schrader valve body on fuel rail and check for presence of fuel. If all this checks OK start looking at the signal to injectors. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: ArtCozier
Date Posted: April-18-2013 at 12:30am
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Open up the distributor and take off the rotor, push on the pickup coil and see if it moves. Often a GT40 with 600 to 1000 hours on it will have melted the mounting area of the coil, and it's loose therefore triggers the ECM at the wrong time. It usually won't show up on a base timing check. The part is available from your local Ford dealer or any aftermarket parts counter. ------------- "Art" |
Posted By: maioman
Date Posted: April-18-2013 at 12:04pm
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Good Morning Gun-Driver, I pulled the FCC apart last night and looked at the hose. It looked good to me, not cracks, but it did have a seam or imperfection in the side, so I am going to replace it either way.. Need to cross things of the list.. I have included a picture( below) of the hose.. Thanks for the tip.. I am not sure that was the culprit, but I agree.. It fit the clues.. 
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Posted By: maioman
Date Posted: April-18-2013 at 12:24pm
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Good Morning lewy2001, Thanks for the through.. On my GT40 there is only one test point and that is on the fuel rail.. I dont havre a schrader valve on the FCC.. Unfortunately.. I think they implemented that on later models.. I was checking the pressure on the rail.. I will try jumper the fuel pumps this evening just to make sure they are running and retest.. It's a good idea, since we did see the pressure gage on the rail do a little jumping. Thanks for your help!! -Chris |
Posted By: maioman
Date Posted: April-18-2013 at 12:31pm
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Good Morning ArtCozier, Wow, I didn't even know about that one.. Help me understand where your going with this.. If the mounting area of the distributer was melted, I agree that would change the timing.. Do you think this would change it that drastically to have the engine not start?? Or are you thinking it would only change it slightly and make it run ruff/backfire?? I will definitely check that one tonight.. You guys are sure keeping me busy checking this stuff.. But It's a great starting point, because I am stuck.. Thanks again for your help!! -Chris |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: April-18-2013 at 1:16pm
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Ok, I'll throw in some simple advice from a simple guy: Check your safety lanyard! |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-18-2013 at 1:24pm
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maioman wrote:Posted By: maioman
Date Posted: April-18-2013 at 1:26pm
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Hi Bri892001, Thats a great thought, I actually doubled checked that one.. I jumped that a couple years back after having "issues" with it. I will tripple check that tonight.. Just for clarification.. When the safety lanyard is out, this stop the fuel pumps?? Correct?? Thanks for your help!! -Chris |
Posted By: ArtCozier
Date Posted: April-18-2013 at 1:30pm
It's because the coil jumps around while the engine is running, and that confuses the ECM. More later when I get some time, I hope. If fuel pressure has gone away but both pumps are running, it could be that the low pressure pump has lost prime. They don't like to pump air. Take off the supply line from the tank and run a price of 3/8" hose into a container of fuel. Cycle the pumps and see if it pumps. Remember, it is returning a lot of fuel to the tank, so it will suck fuel at a rate of 80 gallons per hour from your container. ------------- "Art" |
Posted By: ArtCozier
Date Posted: April-18-2013 at 1:34pm
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The pumps will definitely stop if the safety lanyard is pulled. Sometimes the little 3-proned fork that holds the button it will lose its springiness, and it won't hold the button tightly enough. Put a penny on the button and slide the fork over it to put more pressure on the button. If you don't have a penny, be a big spender and use a dime! Art ------------- "Art" |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: April-18-2013 at 1:38pm
Ahh, missed this detail. |
Posted By: E4ODnut
Date Posted: April-18-2013 at 1:45pm
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I'm with the camp that suspects a fueling issue. It did start and run for a short period of time. You don't have any indication of fuel on the plugs when you pull them. You have proved spark when cranking. I suspect that what has happened is that there was enough fuel in the rails to allow it to start, but now you may have a lot of air in the system. The fact that you get a "jumpy" reading when you put a pressure gauge on the fuel rail may indicate the presence of air. If it were me, the first thing I'd do would be to insure that you have pressure in the rails (~40 PSI sounds right) and it is clear of air. I'm not familiar with the fuel plumbing on these engines but is there a way you can just run the return line to a separate container to purge the system? The pumps will probably only run for about 1 second if the ECU doesn't receive an ignition signal, so as was suggested before, you will probably have to jumper the supply for the pumps to allow them to run continuously. When you are satisfied that you have rail pressure and no air then you can check to see if the injectors are being commanded to fire. One way is to use a mechanic's stethoscope to listen for the clicking noise, but it may be hard to hear under cranking conditions. Another way would be to unplug one of the injectors and substitute a 12 volt test light. The injectors fire in banks of four, alternately. They are supplied with system voltage and the injector drivers in the ECU connect them to ground for the appropriate pulse width. There are injector circuit testers on the market which would make that easier if you can find one. ------------- Robert 1993 Bayliner 3288 "Hocus Pocus" 351 Fords, converted to tuned port programmable EFI |
Posted By: maioman
Date Posted: April-18-2013 at 1:51pm
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Hi Art, This is good advice.. I will inspect the pickup coil this evening, and report back.. Your idea about the Low pressure fuel pump sounds good.. Last night I pull the FCC off and it was 100% full of fuel.. I inspected the High Pressure Fule Pump hose and it looked ok (I m going to replace it anyways). If the FCC was full of fuel do you think the Low pressure fuel pump has an issue?? If you think so I will try the external tank idea this evening.. Thanks for your great ideas, -Chris |
Posted By: maioman
Date Posted: April-18-2013 at 2:09pm
It's all good man.. Sometime the obvious things are things we all miss. I appreciate your help! |
Posted By: MI-nick
Date Posted: April-18-2013 at 3:26pm
if the FCC was full, your LP pump is probably OK. have you tried jumping the STO connector to ground and confirming both the LP and HP pumps run?? or checking the LP pump flow by connecting it to a small container of fuel?? that + fuel pressure check should rule out fuel pump issues. i recently had a GT-40 no start issue and my problem turned out to be LP pump lost it's prime. in my case the FCC was bone dry so I don't think you have the same issue as me. ------------- As far as I can tell, I'm not quite sure... |
Posted By: maioman
Date Posted: April-18-2013 at 3:44pm
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I want to thank everyone for your help, You comments are really great.. I really think Robert & MI-nick and Art (any others) with the fuel prime/fuel (high and low) pump/fuel rail theory is very sound.. Tonight I am going to start flushing. Test & flush what comes out of the Low pressure fuel pump.. I think someone said the number should be in the ballpark of a little over1 Gal/min (give or take) If I disconnect the HP pump and jumper the low pressure pump and have that drain into a can( or something) time it for a min and see if I have something close to a gal, that would effectively test the LP pump and flush the lines.. Then we can eliminate that as a posible issue. If that passes, then we can connect the HP pump and drain it out the fuel rail test value.. Make sure there are no bubbles there.. Then try to start again.. As Robert indicated, this could be air in the lines with the gauge jump, so we can eliminate the possibility of air in the lines ( Tank -> FCC and FCC -> Injectors) Check the pressure at the rail again and see what happens.. Does this seem like a sound plan?? Once again, I cant thank everyone enough for your help and ideas.. I was really drawing a blank.. I will let you know what I find this evening.. -Chris |
Posted By: ArtCozier
Date Posted: April-18-2013 at 4:07pm
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If the FCC is full and you have no fuel pressure, it will almost certainly be the high pressure pump, which is more difficult to hear when you cycle the key. One easy way to isolate it is to unplug one pump or the other then listen carefully. Then plug that one back in and unplug the other pump. The one inside the FCC makes so little noise that you have to listen close to the FCC to hear it. The low pressure pump has a strainer at the fuel inlet. You have to disassemble the pump by taking the top cover off to get at it. When you put the cover back on, be sure to orient the gasket the same way it was. (there will be impressions in the gasket to follow) ------------- "Art" |
Posted By: ArtCozier
Date Posted: April-18-2013 at 4:42pm
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I'm going to run through a quick description of how this fuel system works, just so those who don't know can benefit: The low pressure pump draws fuel from the tank and pumps it into the FCC. The LP pump is capable of pumping only about 15 PSI. When the FCC is full, fuel flows out of the top of the FCC to he return hose and goes back to the tank. The high pressure pump draws fuel out of the FCC and pumps it to the rails under pressure. The high pressure pump is capable of pumping 60 to 80 PSI. There is a pressure regulator at the end of the rails that bleeds off fuel until the pressure in the rails is 39 to 40 PSI. The bleedoff fuel from the regulator flows back into the FCC and mixes with the fuel that is being returned to the tank. This gives that fuel a chance to cool off after being in the hot rails. Here are some ways to test the system: Cycle the key and see whether you hear pumps. If you hear pumps, check the fuel pressure at the Schrader valve on the rail. If no pump sound, find the connector at the back of the engine where a test device is supposed to plug in. It is attached to a bracket to the right-hand side of the ECM. I think (not 100% sure) that it's a four-prong connector. Take a jumper wire and ground the blue wire with the orange tracer that is in the plug. It is at the end of the row of wires. Make sure you've got a good ground. (bare metal directly attached to the engine) Now turn the key on and the pumps should run fulltime as long as the key is on. If the pumps still don't run, you probably have a bad ignition relay or a bad fuel pump relay. These two relays are identical, but BOTH have to turn on to run the pumps. You can leave the key on and give the relays what I call "percussive encouragement" which means tap them with a screwdriver handle while the key is on. These relays are about 1 X 1 X 1 inch and located on the same panel as the test plug. If the pumps STILL don't run, check the purple wire coming from the dashboard and make sure you have ignition voltage. If you have ignition voltage, bring me the boat! (I know that's impossible) Just let me know. ------------- "Art" |
Posted By: maioman
Date Posted: May-06-2013 at 10:42am
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So I wanted to post an update to the issue I am having with my 97 GT40. I did check: Distributor pickup - That looked good.. Fuel Pressure on the rail still reads 38-40psi Replaced both system relay and fuel pump relays Replaced fuel line in the FCC. replaced spark plugs replaced SP wires New fuel new anti syphon valve replaced starter relay - I think I killed it trying to start it.. Breakers (3), they didn't have any spring back into resting position.. So this was just "preventive" replacement.. SkiDim now owns 1/2 my retirement After doing all this, it started.. Not easily, but it did finally start.. I was really interested in what the actual cause was, and it looks like a couple of plug wires were open. 1, 3 , 6 & 8 were fine, but the remainder were open.. I would have expect ruff running, but I had a no start situation.. I am thinking when I had it started it was only running on a couple of cylinders. So.. it seems to have a little trouble at idel, but it seems to start pretty consistently. Seems to die when I give a little throttle and then pull it back to idel.. It used to have a lul when you would pull it back but not die.. I am still going through it, but I wanted to thank everyone for their help on this one!! I will post a couple of pix of the boat this weekend.. |