woo hoo!!! reverse 351w assembly
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29586
Printed Date: November-23-2024 at 11:07am
Topic: woo hoo!!! reverse 351w assembly
Posted By: nw78nautique
Subject: woo hoo!!! reverse 351w assembly
Date Posted: April-21-2013 at 6:12am
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Hello i have a 78 ski nautique with a reverse rotation 351w. Block was cracked - removed reverse cam and crank, timing chain, and front timing cover. I got the crankshaft machined down in reverse rotation.(20/20) I got the camshaft reversed polished. (was in good shape) Im using a running 351w that i removed from a 78 cougar. (YES I KNOW IT ROTATES THE OTHER WAY.) I ordered fel-pro marine reverse rotation seals for a 78 351w- received them and they are labeled for 260/289/302. Front timing cover seal. rev. rotation seal 17795 Rear main seal 2pc. rev. rotation seal 17746 Im about 90% sure 302 and 351w use the same lower gaskets. Can anyone confirm???  I got 20/20 crankshaft bearing kit to install. I got brass freeze plugs to install. Im not going to replaced pistons rings, not pulling the heads. Just swapping the Auto cam and crank to the marine reverse cam and crank, and re using the reverse timing chain set. Im reusing rev. starter, rev. distributor, marine intake and carb. reusing oil pump and pickup tube from rev. engine. I live in Washington and the boat won't get many hours on it. I understand auto to marine specs are slightly different, but this will be a low hour, low budget build. Running 78 cougar with 351w - $500 crank reverse grind - $125 cam reverse polish- $25 brass freeze plugs- $10 marine felpro gaskets - $85 bearings, 1pc oilpan rubber gasket, valve cover gasket, assembly lube, $100 ANY SUGGESTIONS???? Im putting the engine together this week. The auto 351w is still a complete longblock. Finally have all the parts, seals and bearings. Need torque specs for crankshaft mains/ caps, timing sprockets, and front timing cover. |
Replies:
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: April-21-2013 at 10:32am
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Sounds like a good plan. I would put in a new oil pump & timing chain, as those are wear items & critical to function. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-21-2013 at 11:32am
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A 78 should have the wick lines in the crank, and uses a 2-piece rear main seal, yes? Make sure that is the configuration of both engines you're swapping between, otherwise the blocks/cranks aren't compatible. If they're the 2-piece, then the RMS is not rotation specific- only the later one piece styles were, as there were no oil control grooves in the crank. I was not aware that 302 and 351 rear main seals were the same... Outside chance that is possible on the 2-piece version but I know the one piece styles are different. I agree on replacing the pump and timing set, won't cost $100 extra. ------------- |
Posted By: nw78nautique
Date Posted: April-21-2013 at 6:06pm
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thanks for the replies!!. the reverse wick lines on the crank, go with the reverse rear main seal, as the seal wick lines are different than a normal rotation seal. i understand the correct rotation rms is very important when there is no wick lines present on the crank, but even with the wick lines, i think running rev. rms with rev. crankshaft is still very important. oil pump- boat pickup tube is different than my auto. Buy a normal car oil pump, and use the boat pickup and pan? sounds good. timing chains- ive read alot about rh and lh timing gears, chains, ect. Boat had metal sprockets with timing chain. (reverse) Car engine had plastic sprockets with timing chain. (normal) Plan was to reuse the reverse timing chain/metal gears, since im reusing the cam and crankshaft. But if its a good idea, i might change it out. |
Posted By: nw78nautique
Date Posted: April-21-2013 at 8:06pm
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fel-pro marine... ok the front reverse cover seal is the same part number for 302 and 351w. 17795 the reverse rear main seal (2pc) 302- 17746 351w- 17748 new seal comes in later this week. bearings- $45 timing chain set- $35 oil pan gasket - $13 (didnt want to spend $42 on one piece rubber) I priced oil pumps.... the car 351w had great oil pressure, may just reuse it  oil pump - $50 for regular, $90 for high volume. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-21-2013 at 9:19pm
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Don't waste your $$ on the HV oil pump. If all the bearing clearances are within spec, it's not needed. Typically all they do is rob HP. When are we going to see some pictures???  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: April-21-2013 at 9:28pm
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I Like to think of contrarian view points -- Maybe the old OEM oil pump is better than the replacements that come from China?? ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: nw78nautique
Date Posted: April-21-2013 at 11:32pm
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engine from the cougar.  boat motor pulled out last summer  all the krusty old boat parts layed out in the garage.  the boat 
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Posted By: nw78nautique
Date Posted: April-21-2013 at 11:43pm
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TRBenj - ok i now see there are no differnces in the rms, since its a 2pc with wick lines on the crank. so i normal car rear main seal will work? Front timing cover seal - c9je-6700-a  replacement seal from felpro (same part number for 302 and 351w) does not have the outter lip on it.  maybe i'll just put a normal rotation front cover seal on it too. ??? |
Posted By: nw78nautique
Date Posted: April-24-2013 at 6:44am
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ordered new bearings for mains and rods. plastigauged mains - all were even .002 crank spins freely. plstigauged rod bearings. they were .001 crank wont turn over if i tighten rod caps. i left all the caps loose and turned crank over with bar both ways about 10 times. snugged rod caps, crank wont turn even with a bar. .001 is tight. but within spec i thought. Crank is turned down .30 on rod journals. .30 bearings installed. if i buy new .20 rod bearings wont it be too loose? i've read .002 - .003 is what im looking for. |
Posted By: nw78nautique
Date Posted: April-24-2013 at 6:49am
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all my rod caps are on correctly, numbers matching, bearing grooves matching. assembly lube was used, besides where plastigauge was tested. with rod nuts slightly snug, the rotating assembly moves as it should, no binding. |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: April-24-2013 at 9:58am
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Could the rod ends be out of round? Some guys have them re-machined to get them round again. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: gR@HaM
Date Posted: April-24-2013 at 10:29am
Thanks for documenting this is really interesting  I replaced my front cover (crank) seal with a standard rotation one, decided it wasnt a major concern as thats what was in there before.. ------------- '82 Ski Tique |
Posted By: Waterdog
Date Posted: April-24-2013 at 10:39am
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Are the piston rods “indexed” correctly? One side has a radius to fit the radius on the crank journal. The other side does not so the rods fit close to each other. If there not installed correctly you may break the crank. ------------- - waterdog - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3896&sort=&pagenum=2&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978" rel="nofollow - 78 Ski Tique |
Posted By: nw78nautique
Date Posted: April-24-2013 at 4:56pm
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rechecked all my bearing locations, and directions. #1 rod is stamped 13 on rod and cap, all other #'s match the cylinder number (maybe was replaced at some time?) #1 rod/cap have the same part number as all other rods/caps. 2 days ago the engine turned over fine with the CAR crank, the rod bearings when removed were in great condition with no visable wear. if a rod was out of round it should typically show wear on the old bearings. back to the garage to figure this baby out |
Posted By: nw78nautique
Date Posted: April-24-2013 at 6:23pm
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ok i found something. thanks for the help guys!! keep it coming! my new bearing are still in the block, so i layed out all the 78 car bearings(the engine im going to use) - mains and rods then i layed out all the bearings from the original motor (reverse motor that cam and crank are out of) all other mains only have 1 offset slot, and both sets of main bearings are the same. (chamfer edge the same) ...the #3 main that has the alginment bearing... The Main cap has 2 slots in it, the car engine bearing has the groove in the middle of the bearing the old engine bearins has the groove on the offset SO now i have to pull my machined crank and new bearings back out and see if the Center crank bearing is in the CENTER or OFFSET groove. |
Posted By: nw78nautique
Date Posted: April-25-2013 at 4:45am
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i read online that 69-73 351 have 2.31 rod journals and 74-81 have 2.32 rod journals. (so i bought .030 bearings) my machined crank measured 2.29 so 2.32- 2.29 = .030 bearings. everything seemed correct... besides what i thought was a tight .001 plastigauge clearance, im guessing the plastigauge can only can squish so far. so i measured the old crank from the car, = 2.31 2.31 - 2.29 = .020 stupid me either got the wrong info on crank journal sizes or didn't bust out my handy cheapo digital caliper early enough. ======================= so i measured the bearing thickness' to double check my measurments. stock bearings .057 x2 (upper and lower) = .114 (.00) boat bearings before i had crank turned .062 x2 = .124 (.10) the bearings i need .067 x2 = .134 (.20) .030 bearings i bought .072 x2 = .144 been awhile for me..... does it sound like im on the right track? sry for being a posting whore! |
Posted By: nw78nautique
Date Posted: April-27-2013 at 3:22pm
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The motor is in the boat!!! have to finish up a couple things, and then pop it off. by the wiring plug / sileniod there is two orange wires that are connected to each other. looks like it used to have an eyeloop that corroded off |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-27-2013 at 4:42pm
I feel you will need to be more descriptive. Where are the wires going to? A picture would be great. By "silinoid", do you mean the start relay? Some do still call them a solenoid. The "eyeloop", do you mean a ring terminal?  Orange wires have been used to connect to the NSS (neutral safety switch). Is it hooked up? It's the cranking feed from the ignition switch to the starter relay coil. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
nw78nautique wrote:Posted By: nw78nautique
Date Posted: April-28-2013 at 10:18pm
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im guessing the nss is near the rear of the intake/ bell housing area. looks like the previous owner removed the switch, and just hooked the two wires together. makes sence now! thanks should work fine w/o the switch as it always has. ------------------ The pleasurecraft exhaust manifolds have the water inlet towards the front of the motor. they also have a port on the rear of the manifold (guessing to be on rh or lh side) The rear port is NOT plugged. Rear ports are not plugged on either side, looks like they never have been. Are they supposed to be plugged or left open?? I'll have motre pictures soon, when the weather is nicer! |
Posted By: nw78nautique
Date Posted: April-30-2013 at 2:02am
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i bought new plugs for the back of the ex manifolds. almost done, installed risers, fuel line, distributor and some other stuff today. I forgot to put STUDS on the intake for the throttle bracket! so i'll fix that tomorrow. I noticed the steering is Froze up today  so i'll be looking into that too Have to put some oil her, flush out the gas tank, and Might be starting it tomorrow!! 
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-30-2013 at 7:40am
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The rear ports on the exhaust manifolds need to be plugged. I'd say they were removed for draining. The ports on both ends make the casting fit ether side, Water enters the forward end, enters the riser out the top and towards the aft end of the riser enters the exhaust cavity. I recommend getting the NSS wired back in. They are installed for safety. You do not want the engine starting in gear. The NSS is on the port side of the trans. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: April-30-2013 at 12:03pm
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Your first picture of the old motor shows the NSS hooked up with the two standard white wires. |
Posted By: nw78nautique
Date Posted: April-30-2013 at 1:43pm
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Ha, ok thats the nss! well thats wires in, if you look at the same picture, you can see the two orange wires that are connected together. I couldnt tell if they are connected, or if a ring terminal corroded off. The 8 pin plug has a orange wire coming out couple inches and is connected to the orange wire that goes to the ALT. Looks like something used to be there, but they just hooked them together?!?! |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: April-30-2013 at 2:19pm
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Maybe this will help http://s256.photobucket.com/user/gun-driver/media/enginewiring84.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: nw78nautique
Date Posted: April-30-2013 at 2:46pm
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i've looked at that, lol still cant figure it out. maybe these will help.. Both orange wires go to the circuit breaker??  HA and then this 3 wire plug (green black brown) only have the green wire hooked up. The boat used to run fine.... just tryin to figure out these wires! 
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Posted By: nw78nautique
Date Posted: April-30-2013 at 9:46pm
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i finished up everything today. filled it up with oil. and flushed the gas tank. Not even close to running. Engine barely turns over with starter, tried two good batterys, and a load charger. Soleniod had 12v in, 7v out while cranking, so i replaced the soleniod. Double checked tdc #1, compression stroke- rotor pointing at 1 on cap. (even tried it 180 out with no difference) Pulled the plugs, turns over alot better but not enough. Double checked firing order, Starter/distributor is from original reverse 351w. (both were replaced 2 mo before motor died) I guess i'll pull the starter back out and get it tested. --------------- edit. motor spins over freely, starter is drawing power. |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: May-04-2013 at 2:09pm
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I just looked at my '85 the orange wire that comes out of the plug goes to one side of the ballast resistor the other end down stream goes to the automatic choke on the carb. That plug you show I assume is at the front of the motor and goes the the receiving end on the alternator exc post. |
Posted By: Wilhelm Hertzog
Date Posted: August-31-2020 at 6:28am
Any issues with this installation subsequently, or did the standard rotation seal work fine? ------------- 1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |