Asking for help with my PAN gt40, crank, no start
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=31633
Printed Date: October-08-2024 at 7:22pm
Topic: Asking for help with my PAN gt40, crank, no start
Posted By: keoni5
Subject: Asking for help with my PAN gt40, crank, no start
Date Posted: September-25-2013 at 1:24pm
| The rebuilt engine has been tested, new distributor, TFI, plugs, wires, fuel pump, pressure regulator (getting 40 psi), new relays, kill switch disabled. Have started to look for shorts possibly? I am located in northern California and would happily pay someone to come out and help me figure this out (within the area), I don't know what else it could be? ignition coil tested, getting fuel and spark but only coughs and will not run. Possibly computer? I really have no clue at this point, more or less begging for help. You would you have my eternal gratitude if you could possibly help. |
Replies:
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: September-25-2013 at 2:04pm
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start with the basics, Set your timing to #1 TDC, check to make sure everything lines up timing wise. check your spark plug leads and firing order. I am not sure what you mean by TFI, do you have a throttle body injection or an EFI? some pictures and a year of your boat would help to determine if you don't know. I don't think there are many guys from your area on this site, but someone may have a shop recommendation. You're about 1.5 hours from Stockton correct? The technical help here is second to none, but there are more west coast people on Planet Nautique, which might be a good resource as well. Let us know what you find, describe in detail with pictures, and you may not need someone to come out, it's likely you'll get the help you need right here 
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Posted By: keoni5
Date Posted: September-25-2013 at 2:18pm
| Timing set to 5 degrees TDC (where the timing mark is) definitely not 180 degrees out, spark plugs and firing order are correct. TFI is the thick film ignition module. It is an EFI motor. I am indeed about 1.5 hours from stockton. I have posted on the other forum and they suggested I post here. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: September-25-2013 at 3:23pm
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How do you know it is not 180 out? You cant tell that by the timing marking. The engine must be on the TDC of the compression stroke when the number 1 cylinder fires, that timing mark aligns at both the TDC of the compression stroke and at the TDC of the exhaust stroke. By far that is the biggest problem with newly installed engines, and yours sounds like a typical case. Tell us how you know this isnt the case and we can move on to the far less likely options ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: keoni5
Date Posted: September-25-2013 at 3:29pm
| Removed spark plug one cranked with finger on spark plug hole until the big gust of air felt coming from the cylinder and then lined up the markings. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: September-25-2013 at 3:56pm
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If you know which cylinder is number one on a sbf (drivers side front) had a good finger seal and had someone cranking the engine over by hand slowly there is a decent chance that worked. One guy doing it cranking with the starter will still get it wrong a significant portion of the time. Fool proof method is to take off the valve cover and watch the valves open and close, after the number 1 cylinder intake valve opens, then closes the next time the timing markers line up will be at top dead center. Lets assume you did that right - then dropped the distributor in place -then put the number one spark plug wire in line with wherever the rotor was pointing after you dropped it in. Then went in a counter clockwise direction around the cap hooking the wires up in the proper firing order for whatever cam the rebuilder provided. You still couldnt be sure of the timing being 5 degrees BTDC until after you got the thing running and remove the SPOUT connector and use a timing light to set it. I am assuming you are confirming that you have spark with a timing light or physically watching the spark jump with a plug removed? Assuming "the engine has been tested" to mean that it has been turned over and compression test successfully run Assuming fuel means that you have pressure at the rail but have not used a test noid in place of the injectors to see if they are actually being fired by the computer. IF you are sure of the correct cylinder timing and plug order and my other assumptions are correct then I would test to see if you are getting a single to the injectors. Deep breaths and lots of beer and youll get through this.. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: keoni5
Date Posted: September-25-2013 at 4:45pm
| 1 am 99 percent sure the timing is correct (or very very close, as you say until I can get it started can't be 100 percent to the degree), the engine has started and run before in my presence, have seen the spark jump and tried with a different ignition coil to see make sure that it was sufficient, signal to the injectors were all tested with a kit that I borrowed (with the lights), I have had many a beer trying to tackle this thing... never seen anything like it. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: September-25-2013 at 8:28pm
| maybe a stupid thought, but you don't by chance have a reverse rotation starter on that thing do you? This sounds like timing to me, even though you seem to have set it correctly. if it were rotating the wrong direction, you would get similar symptoms... |
Posted By: keoni5
Date Posted: September-25-2013 at 9:26pm
| Starter is standard rotation, the only thing I can think is that it might have something to do with the kill switch circuit somehow (or the computer , but there is spark and fuel and when I use the EEC-IV tester the diagnostics work), but I hear the relays clicking and the fuel one seems to be ok. |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: September-25-2013 at 10:56pm
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Joe is all over it, just go back and re check you have fuel pressure of around 35-40PSI while cranking and spark to plugs. All they need is fuel, air, spark at right time and some reasonable compression to run. If injectors are firing you should have wet plugs after some unsuccessful cranking. If not try squirting some fuel down inlet manifold if it fires you were not getting fuel. The 180 degrees out is as Joe stated the most common problem on a newly rebuilt engine. If it tries to start you will know as it will backfire and carry on. The EEC relay supplies power to the coil as well as fuel pump relay. You can jumper the STO (test connector) to earth. This will make the fuel pumps run all the time. This would help to make sure the pumps are running and the computer is not stopping them by removing the ground to fuel pump relay. By removing the Spout connector grey plug near distributor you will set the timing to what ever you have static and remove any chance of the ECM (computer) messing with it while trying to start engine. It could be the stator in the dissy giving you erratic timing just check with test light on coil negative lead that you are seeing the light flash while cranking. It could be still the stator and TFI combination giving you spark at the wrong time I have a test sheet somewhere for them. I assume PAN is SAN? Mobile keys:) ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: keoni5
Date Posted: September-26-2013 at 12:22pm
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The fuel pressure is at 40psi, (plugs are wet after cranking for a short time) spark is present. rechecked timing and it is correct. Fuel pressure is steady at 40psi The distributor is new and it has the same symptoms as the old, I have tried starting it with the SPOUT connector unplugged and no go. Have a new TFI and have swapped it with the old one to make sure - no change. My boat is a pro air nautique 216 (also know as air nautique in the beginning I guess) |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: September-26-2013 at 12:25pm
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How does the gas smell? How long has the boat been sitting? No such thing as a Pro Air 216. Pro Air is different from a Air Nautique is different from a 216. All have different hulls. Pro and Air shared the same deck though. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: September-26-2013 at 12:56pm
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So what was wrong with the engine before? ------------- |
Posted By: keoni5
Date Posted: September-26-2013 at 1:31pm
| Boat has not been sitting long, the motor did start at one point when it was initially put in the boat, good to know about the different boats, it is 21ft 6 inches ,though it doesn't actually say the model anywhere on the boat that I have seen. The engine before had valve issues (3000 hrs it was to be expected) but I'm guessing the main problem was to do with something else as it persists now. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: September-26-2013 at 1:44pm
Why would you do his to an engine that just had valve problems? ------------- |
keoni5 wrote:Posted By: keoni5
Date Posted: September-26-2013 at 1:52pm
| when I bought it it ran fine put 1500+ hours on it. Before putting the rebuilt engine in it (this year) It would not run, incorrectly assumed that the engine itself was the cause. Thought that it would be other parts that were recommended (TFI, plugs, wires, fuel pump, pressure regulator etc) to be replaced by ford mechanics that I had look at it. Still not running |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: September-26-2013 at 3:10pm
How long is not long? How does the gas smell? Bad gas or water in the gas is one of the first things I suspect when a motor goes from running fine to running poorly, or not wanting to start. |
Posted By: keoni5
Date Posted: September-26-2013 at 3:34pm
| A few months, the gas smells fresh, tried to start with starting fluid as well and still no go. |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: September-26-2013 at 4:47pm
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Have you confirmed you are getting compression still? I realize this is freshly rebuilt engine but something could have gone goofy with the cam timing. |
Posted By: keoni5
Date Posted: September-26-2013 at 5:57pm
| I will try to refresh the gas and compression test and report back. |