Fuel Pump Fludding Carb
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33543
Printed Date: October-08-2024 at 1:21pm
Topic: Fuel Pump Fludding Carb
Posted By: jasonmac23
Subject: Fuel Pump Fludding Carb
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 11:38am
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I have a ’91 Barefoot Nautique that I can’t get to run. Back story: Last summer I had to replace the starter, I put in the exact same type of starter that came out of the boat. Once I got the new started in, a new problem popped up. The fuel pump runs to prime carb when key is put into on position and does not stop when going to start, pumping to the point that it floods the carb so bad that fuel shoots out of the top of the carb when air breather is removed. I have put in a new Carter fuel pump and that turned out not to be the problem. I rebuilt the carb thinking maybe I had a bad float and/or bad needle/seat’s and while I was at it I replaced all gaskets on carb as well, basically a complete rebuild. Put the rebuilt carb back on and that didn’t fix the problem either. I have read some things before about an oil pressure switch that might be in line with the power source form starter solenoid. I have not gotten down to that yet, plan on looking for that soon. In the meantime, any advice that anyone can offer to help trouble shoot this issue would be greatly appreciated, thank you. ------------- Jason |
Replies:
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 12:13pm
| Wait, so you have an electric fuel pump in there? Most of us have mechanical fuel pumps, which don't pump any fuel EDIT: when the motor is not running. |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 1:07pm
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can you post a pic of this fuel pump? ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 2:21pm
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First off, you gotta back up and look at when the problem actually started....when you changed the starter!!!!!! Are you sure that you got the right rotation starter? I seem to remember a recent post about V-drive engine rotation and there was a lot of debate about when/where CC went from RH to LH rotation on the V-drives. I think the only way to positively confirm rotation was by the serial number of the engine. If you put the wrong rotation starter in there, that thing will never start and it's very possible fuel will spit out the carb if you're trying to turn it the wrong way! Where did you get the starer from and how did you determine it's the right one? Secondly, your description of the fuel issue does make it sound like you have an electronic fuel pump that runs when you just turn the key on and not when you're trying to crank it over. That boat never had an electronic fuel pump so if one is on there, when and where did that happen at in relation to the new starter? ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 3:47pm
| Good call on the starter Eddie. |
Posted By: jasonmac23
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 4:45pm
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Yes it has an electronic Fuel pump. If i remember correctly it was a RH rotation starter. I got the starter from Auto zone, but it was a marine starter that had matching model numbers. If it was the wrong rotation though, would it even crank at all? The boat came with the elecctronic fuel pump on it. Where would i locate the serial # of the engine? ------------- Jason |
Posted By: jasonmac23
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 4:49pm
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I bought the boat used about 5 years ago. ------------- Jason |
Posted By: hotboat
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 4:53pm
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Still going to need some picture under the hood. 351 or 454? ------------- Brian |
Posted By: jasonmac23
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 4:58pm
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I will have to get some pics to post later. It has a 454. ------------- Jason |
Posted By: hotboat
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 5:02pm
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Still going to need some picture under the hood. 351 or 454? ------------- Brian |
Posted By: jasonmac23
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 5:04pm
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By the way, its flooding the carb, not fludding....oops. ------------- Jason |
Posted By: jasonmac23
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 5:13pm
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Wouldnt it also be possible to deterime the rotation of the engine by looking at the serial # on the prop? and/or if it is stamped with a RH or LH? ------------- Jason |
Posted By: hotboat
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 5:18pm
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Specs on the fuel pump? Where is the fuel coming out of the carb? Is there a pressure regulator on it does it need one? Likely needle n seat. Nice American Skier, there is a pristine one on our lake blue ------------- Brian |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 5:21pm
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On the V-Drives, it's a little more complicated than that. Because, the transmission or the V drive unit may or may not change the direction of spin. That's part of what the discussion was about in the other thread. |
Posted By: hotboat
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 5:30pm
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I dont remember any 91 barefoot or excel threads that the engine was not reverse rotation, the fact it has an electric pump on it tells me it could be a replacement engine with no provision for a mechanical pump although. Lets figure out if we have a rt hand rotation prop, tag on the motor, tag on the v-drive should be a walters 1.21 to 1 ratio. Confirm these when you can ------------- Brian |
Posted By: jasonmac23
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 5:38pm
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Yeah, the American Skier was my first love! I completely restored it only to have it smashed by a drunk after only having it out about 6 times after completing restorations. Damn near killed me and three friends, luckely no one was hurt cuz we bailed out before impact. Then i bought this '91 BF with inssuance $$$ for next project. But now life has got in the way of that, so i am looking to sell it. But i want to get it running again before that, so as not to take a hit on a non-running boat. ------------- Jason |
Posted By: jasonmac23
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 5:41pm
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I already put new needle and seat's in the carb in fact, i completely rebuilt the carb already. ------------- Jason |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 5:48pm
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The prop will be RH. That was the end goal be a RH prop. Brian is correct about the tranny and/or V-Drive changing the rotation. The tranny may change it one way and the V-Drive change it again. That's what the discussion was about. The only way to know for sure is the serial number. The serial number should be clearly marked on a tab someplace easily seen on the engine. I don't know for sure where that would be though. Yes, it will crank if it's the wrong rotation starter. It will crank it backwards though. I can't tell you how many times that's been done here by people who didn't know any better. Electronic fuel pumps can be problematic. Too much pressure would require a pressure regulator. It may or may not need it. Also electronic pumps are designed to have a return line to the fuel tank and be used with EFI which requires a lot more fuel pressure (like 40+lbs. vs. a carb that only needs 5-7lbs.). If this was retrofitted with a electronic pump, was it done coreectly is the biggest concern and then why was it done? It didn't have one to start with so why change it? Although a retrofitted or rebuilt engine could explain that too. The first thing is finding a serial number on the engine. We can go from there. As many pics as you can get would help too. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: hotboat
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 5:49pm
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You got lucky, I'm glad, where are you located? Often times brand new needle seats are bad, float adjustment can also cause this. Throw some pictures of the boat up or email me some, I'd love another 91 ------------- Brian |
Posted By: jasonmac23
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 8:08pm
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I live in north central Indiana, Kokomo Indiana to be exact. I know everyone here wants pics, i will get pics posted. the boat is still in storage at this time though. I plan on getting it out this weekend and i will snap some shots and get them up on here, along with locating the engine serial #. In the meantime i think i have some shoots somewhere that i am looking for now. I have been able to find out by going back to the Auto Zone where i purchased the starter that it was a model # 6616n starter. From what i can tell through looking that part up is that it has a counter clockwise rotation. I am assuming that translates to LH rotation, idk. Eddie, I think your right. I am starting to believe that i might have installed the wrong starter, at least as far as the rotation is concerned. And yes, it was because "i didnt know any better" but i try to do the best and learn from my mistakes. and all of you in this thread are very helpful and i appriciate that, good info. This pic is copied from my diaries page, of the Barefoot  ------------- Jason |
Posted By: jasonmac23
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 8:13pm
Here are some pics of the American Skier after the accident.   ------------- Jason |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 9:58pm
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Yup. Getting a starter at Autozone IS A BIG MISTAKE!! Whats up with the electric fuel pump? What happened to the mechanical? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: May-09-2014 at 10:47pm
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Jason, The rotation of the starter as it relates to which way the engine turns will depend on how it's mounted. If it's mounted in front of the flywheel, a CCW starter would spin the engine LH. That same starter mounted behind the flywheel will spin it RH(I think that's right anyway, or is it reversed????). Anyway, you get the idea. Pete is dead on too. You're always better off spending a little extra and getting a starter from a reputable marine dealer or someplace like SKIDIM or N3boatworks. We've just seen way too many issues from Auto Zones or Advanced Auto on stuff like this. Didn't mean to make it sound like the you're an idiot or anything like that either. It certainly wasn't meant to be disrespectful. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: fanofccfan
Date Posted: May-10-2014 at 4:43am
Electric is what you get for a 318 Chrysler according to Dave at hurrikane marine. The marine mechanical is NLA. |
8122pbrainard wrote:Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-10-2014 at 7:45am
First, he doesn't have a Chrysler and second, the mechanical is rebuildable and Dave must be smoking something!  The mechanical Carter pumps are very available. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: hotboat
Date Posted: May-10-2014 at 8:19am
 RIP to a rare boat------------- Brian |
Posted By: jasonmac23
Date Posted: May-12-2014 at 9:48am
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Ok guys, unfoutunatly the weather here in Indiana was not cooperative and it stormed all weekend, so i was not able to get to the boat to get pics yet. I was wondering though, does anyone here know where i can find something that would be like the equivalent of a Chilton's Manual for the '91 Barefoot Nautique? Or anywhere that i can find some engine specs/diagrams? ------------- Jason |
Posted By: jasonmac23
Date Posted: May-12-2014 at 10:00am
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Eddie, The starter mounts in front of the flywheel. And it is a CCW starter, so i would assume from what your telling me that since that is the cass, it would be cranking the engine in a LH rotation, correct? That being said, obviously that puts me back to square one of locating the serial # of the engine to determine the engine rotation. Im guessing its gonna turn out to be RH. I didnt think you was being disrespectful, actually i was simply agreeing with you. And this whole deal is turning into a good learning experience. Thank you again for all of your help on this issue. I feel like i am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel, as long as i can get some good weather here to get back into boat to work this out. ------------- Jason |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: May-12-2014 at 10:43am
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The Electric pump was standard issue on some of the big block 91- Footers. I think it may have been a pro-tec carb thing. It's the same low pressure pump they used to supply the FCC on some earlier boats. The closest thing you will find to a step by step service manual for your boat is tall the info stored inside the guys brains here on CCF.com. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: May-12-2014 at 10:58am
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Hi Jason If you look right here on CCF at the reference section you'll find a "PCM engine manual for all Fords and Chevys (1989). As far as rotation of your engine you can easily find out if your starter is turning it the right way. On all 454 PCM engines whether they are normal or reverse rotation. the distributor rotor turns clockwise when looking from above so: Take off your distributor cap Crank the engine over and see which way the rotor turns If it turns clockwise you have the right starter If it turns counterclockwise you have the wrong starter. At least this will tell you if it's a starter issue. Ken O |
Posted By: oldcuda
Date Posted: May-12-2014 at 11:07am
| That's correct. when installing starter in BBC check distributor rotation it will always turn clockwise regardless of engine rotation.If not wrong starter. |
Posted By: jasonmac23
Date Posted: May-12-2014 at 11:13am
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That sounds like a good idea, except for the fact that as Zach said, this boat has a Pro-tech ignition, so it does not have a standard distributor and rotor. ------------- Jason |
Posted By: oldcuda
Date Posted: May-12-2014 at 11:15am
| Oops. |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: May-12-2014 at 12:02pm
Yes, that should be correct. I'm pretty sure I'm of the same opinion as everybody else here in that I think it'll be a RH engine rotation on the BBC. Really need to confirm it by getting the engine serial number for sure.
Good call Zach, I wasn't even thinking this could be a Pro-Tec engine. I knew Pro-Tecs were avaialable in '92, but wasn't sure about '91. Especially being a BB. Then the electronic FP does make sense. You learn something every day  ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: May-12-2014 at 12:08pm
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Haha, Eddie, I am not that good. I just happened to know Mark's 91 BBC protec motor was originally an electric pump and his buddy TJs boat is still running the electric supply pump (also a 91 BBC protec motor). ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: May-12-2014 at 12:25pm
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Hi Again Missed the Pro tec thing, probably because I was typing when Zach was posting. Wouldn't have mattered, I know nothing about Pro tec other than it's easy to spell it and there is still a shaft that rotates clockwise. There is some info in the 93 manual in the reference section like a wiring diagram and engine specs. Probably won't help you here though. Like Eddie said at one point, you changed starters, then you had the problem and it's apparently never run again. I know what I'd be looking at. KenO |
Posted By: TX Foilhead
Date Posted: May-12-2014 at 2:19pm
| All you gurus missed the fact that the ProTec has a sensor that sits in the dizzy hole to keep time, it should spin just like a dizzy. I don't have mine anymore, but I believe you can watch it work if you take off the plastic top. |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: May-12-2014 at 2:30pm
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That was assumed. I think the cap has something like two small black screws that hold it on from the sides? ------------- |
Posted By: jasonmac23
Date Posted: May-15-2014 at 5:59pm
Got some pic's, finally!! Looks like the serial # is 333841. Made 6/25/90. It was hard to get good pics of the fuel pump due to its location. but this is what i got.     ------------- Jason |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: May-16-2014 at 12:29am
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Since the sensor (the replacement for the distributor) has a removable top have you taken it off to see which way the inner ring rotates when you crank the engine? At least you'll know if you have the right starter or not and it should take just a few minutes. Those casting numbers on the block won't tell anything about rotation of the engine. It would have come with a bolted on tag (look in a PCM manual to see what it looks like) that would be helpful but I don't think I see it in your pictures Ken O |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: May-16-2014 at 2:06am
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Hi again Jason Up late puppy sitting, (and trying to help you out.) A little research tells me that a 6616N starter is a counter clockwise rotating rear mount starter. That's a starter for a normal rotation chevy that mounts on the top of the bellhousing at the rear of the engine. It can be REAL CONFUSING, but if you have a right hand engine and a rear mount starter, the starter needs to turn clockwise. A picture of the starter mounted on the engine would be really good. If it mounts like a normal chevy car starter, then that part number doesn't make sense. I'm guessing that on your v drive when you said it mounted in front of the flywheel you meant it's toward the front of the boat since the engine is in backwards. And by the way I have a normal rotation PCM 454 with a CCW rear mount starter whose part number cross references with that 6616N so this is based on real stuff that I can look at. In your case there's extra confusion cause it seems that you have a backwards rotating engine mounted backwards in the boat, so do the look at the sensor inner ring rotation like mentioned in the previous post. |
Posted By: jasonmac23
Date Posted: May-16-2014 at 9:52am
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Ken, Thats a good idea, but the problem with that is, if i pop that cap and hit the key to see what way it is rotating, it only going to tell me what way the engine is "trying" to crank now with the starter i put in. Which may or may not be the right one, that tells me nothing about what the engine rotation was prior to puting in the replacment starter. Yes, the starter mounts towards the front of the boat on what would be concidered the back of the engine, with the starter nose pointing to the front of the engine(rear of the boat). Does anyone know if it would be possible to see if the engine is cranking the right way or the wrong way, in its current state, by checking the alternator to see if it is giving a positive or a negative charge??? I mean everyone has givin me a lot of ideas on how to check the rotation as if it was new from the factory and running and i had never changed anything. But the fact remains that i have changed something before ever know what the normal rotation was. So now its a matter of finding out if its cranking the right way or the wrong way. ------------- Jason |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-16-2014 at 10:04am
Actually, it will. The rotor will turn clockwise on that 454 regardless of whether you have a RH or LH engine. If you pull the cap and see that its turning counterclockwise, then youre turning the engine backwards. |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: May-16-2014 at 10:09am
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Did you mess with the plug wires? If not then just check the firing order. A normal LH engine is: 18436572. #1 cylinder is stbd aft on your boat. Follow that wire to the cap and mark it. Clockwise the next wire would go #8 and so on and so forth. If not, then its a RH engine. Another clue is to look at the intake manifold on the belt side of the carb. Many builders in that era actually ground off the cast firing order and sometimes even re-stamped it. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: jasonmac23
Date Posted: May-16-2014 at 10:26am
Did not know that, obviously right. That would certainly be a quick check to see if it is cranking the right way, thanks. The firing order idea is a great one too. I did notice that the firing order was stamped on the block as well, so with those two strategies, I believe I can get this whole mess straightend out, thanks guys. I will update once ive ran those checks. Good info.!! ------------- Jason |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-16-2014 at 10:45am
This wont work because he has the Protec ignition. There is no "cap" per se, so you cant follow it around to determine the firing order. There are individual coil packs mounted to the rear of the engine, and presumably they'd be in the same place on a LH and RH engine. Just pointing out that KENO and oldcuda said the same thing about checking for rotor/sensor rotation earlier on, I just restated it. I recommend reading all posts from beginning to end, otherwise you stand to miss helpful information. |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: May-16-2014 at 10:50am
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OK, how about water pump hose orientation? Didnt know that about the Projunk ignition. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: May-16-2014 at 11:27am
If needed, I can take a pic of my Protec wiring tonight when I get home. Just let me know. ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: TX Foilhead
Date Posted: May-16-2014 at 9:54pm
| The ProTec is a wasted spark system, it fires the spark for the plug on the compresion stroke and the opposite cylinder which is on the exhaust stroke at the same time. So it would fire 1 and 5, 2 and 6, 3 and 7, and 4 and 8 if the cylinders were to fire in order. You can plug your firing order in to that to figure out the wiring, top row would start with one, bottom row starts with 5, it doesn't care which way the engine rotates. |
Posted By: jasonmac23
Date Posted: May-28-2014 at 10:39am
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Update, finally got time to pull the rotor cap and bump the engine. It was turning counter clockwise, wrong starter. Got the right one ordered. should be an easy fix from here on out. Thanks again everybody for all of you help, much appreciated. ------------- Jason |
Posted By: jasonmac23
Date Posted: June-02-2014 at 10:42am
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Shes back in action!!!!!! Got the new(correct) starter in over the weekend, and she's running like a champ. Hate to have to do it, but now she's for sale. Got a baby on the way, so just need to liquidate. Thanks again to all of you guys for the helpful advice and information. This has been a great learning experience for me, and i could not have done it without all of you and your expertise. Thank you!! ------------- Jason |