Prop IS GONE … At bottom of KY Lake
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Boat Maintenance
Forum Discription: Discuss maintenance of your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34615
Printed Date: November-17-2024 at 3:36am
Topic: Prop IS GONE … At bottom of KY Lake
Posted By: gsyogi
Subject: Prop IS GONE … At bottom of KY Lake
Date Posted: September-12-2014 at 1:01am
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Hey, a belated thanks to Marty, Art, and Tim. I apologize for the delay in posting this up, but after this occurred on our final day of our annual summer vacation (Aug. 7th), I had to tow both our SN and the family home back to Colorado and then head out for nearly 4 weeks of extended travel. I have just returned and I am ready to deal with this issue (i.e., getting it repaired and ready for next year) and, like I told Marty on the telephone back in early-August, I appreciate all the kind words as to no one in our family getting hurt!!! Seriously … I was in the water and had just popped up on the ol’ slalom with my wife driving and our 3- and 5-year-old children acting as spotters). As for the diagnosis, I also appreciate both Art’s and Tim’s perspective and insight … who knows!? I DO know that our ’94 was celebrating its 20th year this summer and that with our 5- and 3-year-olds we had been doing a lot of slow churning at 10-12 mph with the ski trainer and … gasp … “towable” during our trip (with great breaks for mom and dad to ski at 30+ mph)—I was fanatical about checking the prop, strut, and the alignment!!! I also know that our KY vacation is the only time that our boat remains in the water for any amount of time … i.e., we don’t take it out for the two weeks of our vacation as it sits in a extremely protected slip (so I didn’t have a chance to look at the prop and drive shaft like I normally do on a daily basis). As Marty suggested, I have set out both my initial e-mail along with both Art and Tim’s responses below (again, my thanks to you all) … also Marty’s: My initial e-mail to Marty: BUT LOOK AT THIS ...  happened this a.m., our last day here. Any ideas? Metal fatigue? There were no contributing factors (i.e., alignment issues, a strike of some kind ... etc.). It was the first pull of the day, I had just popped out of the water and we were on our way to ski speed (approx. 30 mph) with my very capable wife driving. According to her, she said that over the course of about 3 seconds, she heard a rattle, then a much louder rattle, then nothing ... she immediately shut the boat down. Thoughts? I will of course post this up on CCF as I am anxious to learn the possible causes. No other damage (whew!!!) but a very nice 1-year-old prop is one the bottom of the lake and, I am sure some pending damage to my wallet (any idea of what this is going to cost to make it right?). Paddled/pushed/swam the ol' Nautique over to the ramp and hand loaded her ... heading back to CO in the morning. Hope that you are well! -B Art's response via e-mail: “Thought I'd turn around and send this to "all." Someone please copy it to CCF. I want everyone to know that it was common back then, but with the new keyways it is very, very rare. BTW, if you try to use an old key with sharp corners in a radisused keyway, you'll have trouble. Get the ones with the rounded corners OR take the corners off on a grinder then clean it up on sandpaper. Marty.... Unquestionably Low Cycle Fatigue. Learned a lot about this during the short period I worked for Pratt & Whitney Aircraft. If you look carefully at the broken end of the shaft, you will see striations radiating from the corner of the keyway. That is called the origin of the fatigue, and, unfortunately, it's pretty common in 17-4PH stainless steel. It can be avoided by putting a radius on any inside corner as we do now with our prop shafts, starting about 10-15 years ago.” Tim's response via e-mail: “Misalignment, bent shaft, bent prop, worn strut bushing, excessive prop to strut clearance... Take your pick- could have been any of the above or a combination thereof. Bad metallurgy on the shaft is possible but not likely. Not sure how he could rule out those not being factors unless he is 100% sure the driveline maintenance was up to snuff from the day that shaft was installed. New $300 shaft/coupler and $400 prop and he's back in business.” And, of course, Marty (thanks Pal): “Yeah--- It’s complicated to hear… But most guys are gonna say misalignment….. That’s a hard one for me to say- since it’s the end of the shaft….. Maybe a taper issue. If we had the other end- then you could verify if metal fatigue …. Is there any burning on the end of that shaft ? But Art can verify now- that metal fatigue could have played a part and it’s nothing you did wrong or nothing you could have done to prevent this…. Like you said- Hope shut it down quick and the most important thing- NO ONE WAS INJURED !! Just the Beatte Family Pride and Wallet J When you post it—you can COPY what Art wrote- and just be ready for about 6 different answers.. Be Safe and keep me informed ….” Ok, now to THE important issue. Although this is only our third season of ownership, I hope to keep this boat in our family for another 20 years. What, specifically (i.e., specific parts … part numbers if you have them) do I replace while I am at this repair? I have a trusted boat mechanic but I want to expedite the process. I am also considering installing a dripless PSS “Shaft Seal” system. I will thank you all in advance for specifics. |
Replies:
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-12-2014 at 1:56am
| Had it been vibrating prior to the failure? Sorry for your loss. |
Posted By: gsyogi
Date Posted: September-12-2014 at 2:10am
| Thx. Not a single vibration or an "off" note of any kind. That's a beauty you've got MrMcD. |
Posted By: boardersdad
Date Posted: September-12-2014 at 8:17am
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Brian, Sorry to hear about your trouble. I know a number of metallurgists but none in Colorado. If you know one, have him look at the fracture site. With different angles of lighting, take some high quality photos of the broken end and post them to a photo site like tinypic. Link to them here. We may be able to see if it was overload, low cycle fatigue or high cycle fatigue. Steve |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: September-12-2014 at 9:40am
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Good to hear no damage other than your wallet. ARE shaft is the way to go for replacement. Gortex packing will do 95% as good as a dripless packing. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: September-12-2014 at 10:20am
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You make it sound like it's the equivalent of an alien invasion that nobody has ever experienced before. The shaft broke. It happens. Get over it. John lost a practically brand new 540 in TN a few years ago and the shaft looked identical to yours. No warning, no vibration, just gone. Get a new double taper Acme shaft, coupler and prop. Put it back together and have fun. It's a part of owning these boats. I keep waiting for my shaft to do the same thing since I rebuilt my engine but so far so good. I know it'll happen sooner or later though. Ask Joe about breaking shafts. I think he's done three of them on his rocket ship now. Maybe more. I can't remember. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: gsyogi
Date Posted: September-12-2014 at 12:15pm
| Eddie, point well made and I understand … I am ready to get on with the repair and do it correctly! Thx. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: September-12-2014 at 12:29pm
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Yeah, you're not the first and you won't be the last. Bummer though. ------------- |
Posted By: IAughtNaut
Date Posted: September-12-2014 at 1:23pm
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I should get credit for one of Joe's, and I was on Eddie's boat several times last year, which means his will probably go in the next 5 months...my guess, Feb 7th. Any hit on the wallet sucks, but at least it was day 14 of the vaca, not day 1. If everything worked all the time, what would we talk about? ------------- bring the ruckus http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5347" rel="nofollow - 2000 Pro Air |
Posted By: GlassSeeker
Date Posted: September-12-2014 at 3:39pm
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Been there done that...no obvious reason...just snap...blub blub by by prop...hey were in nuetral.... ------------- This is the life |
Posted By: boardersdad
Date Posted: September-12-2014 at 10:52pm
Ah, compassion for our fellow boaters... |
backfoot100 wrote:Posted By: captbob626
Date Posted: September-12-2014 at 11:44pm
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FYI. One of the major causes of shaft failure In that area is a poorly fitted prop or a loose prop. ------------- Bob Meimbresse |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-17-2014 at 3:09pm
I had never heard of the shaft snapping without an alignment issue or bend in 30 years of tournament boat use. I guess I have been lucky. 1,500 hours on my first Nautique. 800 Hours on the Malibu. Thanks for the kind words about our 95, unfortunately it was in a car accident and is waiting for repairs, formerly unscratched now needs gel coat repair, trailer repair, new prop and more. There is a thread with pictures of the damage, could have been much worse no one was hurt. ( not even the deer ) Your fix will be straight forward, good thing your prop did not come up and damage the hull. I used the Acme shaft on the 95 and it was very high quality and shipped really fast. There is a 10% discount available if you use our membership on this forum. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-17-2014 at 3:26pm
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Depending on the depth of the lake Scuba gear can help recover lost parts. I found a friends wedding ring a week after it was lost. If it is less than 40 feet deep you have a lot of search time before air runs out. If you can get within 200 feet of the actual loss location your odds are pretty good for recovery. Good clear water helps a lot also. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: September-17-2014 at 3:46pm
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A.R.E. shafts Acme propellers ------------- |
Posted By: Toertel
Date Posted: September-17-2014 at 4:29pm
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If you want, you can send it to our Pittsburgh lab and I'll have the metallurgist look at it for free. ------------- 1994 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: jbear
Date Posted: September-17-2014 at 11:12pm
seemed like it was real easy to put it all back together..at least Eddie made it look easy. I just watched & tried to stay outa the way. john ------------- "Loud pipes save lives" AdamT sez "I'm Canadian and a beaver lover myself"... |
Posted By: Toertel
Date Posted: September-18-2014 at 12:57pm
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BTW close up pics will do as well for a quick and dirty from my metalurgist ------------- 1994 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-18-2014 at 3:28pm
Hollywood is correct, I advised badly. A.R.E. for the shaft including a new coupler was $375 from Discount Inboard Marine, Ski DIM when I bought mine in January this year. It is an improved coupler and easy to work on if needed. Good time to check the cutlass bearing in your strut, makes sure it is still tight before ordering parts. |
Posted By: gsyogi
Date Posted: September-21-2014 at 2:01pm
| MrMcD … Glad everyone was ok (perhaps not the deer) … as for the SCUBA, it is at the bottom of our "vacation lake" in Kentucky and we are now back home in Colorado, won't return until next summer … had to leave it behind … great idea, it would make a fun search for someone so inclined; however, KY lake is very tannic and murky! Called Vince at SkiDIM and he worked with me to get the correct ARE shaft, new strut bearing (figured that while I am at it, even though there is no play in the bearing, just over 700 hrs., I would take the time to replace the bearing), and I am going to try out the PSS "dripless" seal … also, new 422 ACME prop on the way. My wallet it lighter but hopefully we can get it all put back together so the ol' SN will give us another great summer vacation next year! Toertel … I will send it along if you are curious once I get it out … just let me know if you want to take a look at it for the benefit of all! |
Posted By: Toertel
Date Posted: September-21-2014 at 2:24pm
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gsyogi, of course I'd like to look at it. Close up pics would most likely also do. ------------- 1994 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-25-2014 at 2:51am
| We bought our boat with only 100 hours on the meter and I found the previous owner had been running this rig with a bent shaft and the cutlas bearing was shot. I don't know how many hours were on teh clock when they damaged it but the boat came with two props, both had been repaired so the shaft had been hit more than once. It is not the hours on the meter it is the care taken with proper maintenance while using your boat that will extend the bearing life. |
Posted By: MartyMabe
Date Posted: June-24-2015 at 11:51am
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Brian has his boat fixed up and ready for the yearly Family vacation in Kentucky- but has a few questions. 1st he's having an issue with posting it here- so I'm gonna try. He had a new shaft and prop installed. Also went with the PSS Drippless System. It's plumbed above the outlet on the RWP. Is this correct ? Also it has a collar that is up against the graphite bushing. It seems like it's a safety collar- but I didn't think it should be up against that bushing. The mechanic said his strurt and strut bearing was good. He has slight movement in that area. I'll try and get pics up.. Any help in this matter is appreciative by him and helpful in me gaining knowledge on it also. ------------- 66 Skylark http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5041" rel="nofollow - 93 SN If you're not living in NC, you're just camping out! |
Posted By: Toertel
Date Posted: June-24-2015 at 12:09pm
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Brian did send me ton of pics yesterday and its the same issue as Kapla's accident. This pics explains a little what to look for  Looks like Brians and Kapla's started close to the keyway... and over time these cracks grow larger till it snaps. ------------- 1994 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: June-24-2015 at 12:37pm
Marty where he has it plumbed in is perfect nice cool water going to the seal. The collar should be moved up the shaft some so it's not touching. The movement in the strut bushing should be very minimal if any. Since it's the old bushing it has some wear on it. If it were me I would have changed that also while he had everything apart don't know why his guy didn't do it. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-24-2015 at 12:49pm
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I am pretty darn sure the thing that looks just like a safety collar in his installation (stainless ring with a set screw) is actually part of the PSS shaft seal and not a safety collar that is installed too close and rubbing. If he turns the prop and it doesn't move then he will know that for sure. He should still have a shaft safety collar north of the shaft seal IMHO, but at this point I wouldn't tear it apart to put one on, might look for a two piece model though. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: MartyMabe
Date Posted: June-24-2015 at 1:56pm
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Well here's a video of an install.. I'm perplexed as to how that 'collar' doesn't wear on the snout of the PSS System when it's preloaded and right up against it! ??? Guess the water keeps it lubricated and cool ???? ------------- 66 Skylark http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5041" rel="nofollow - 93 SN If you're not living in NC, you're just camping out! |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: June-24-2015 at 2:11pm
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From the video it looks like the SS ring is in fact the seal and acts like the ceramic disc in a water pump seal. I like my OJ dripless over that set up and its $100 less |
Posted By: MartyMabe
Date Posted: June-24-2015 at 3:29pm
      ------------- 66 Skylark http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5041" rel="nofollow - 93 SN If you're not living in NC, you're just camping out! |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: June-24-2015 at 7:41pm
MY GOD MARTY what were you thinking Petes going to see the silicone and and that may send him over the edge. 
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Posted By: gsyogi
Date Posted: June-28-2015 at 12:56am
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Much thanks to Marty and to the replies already received … at this point I am most concerned about the plumbing (see the response from SKIDIM in bold below) and then compare that to both Paul's reply (above) and also this from my contact at Nautiqueparts.com (thanks Townsend!): "I have confirmed that it is 1'' hose. I have checked with everyone here and we all agree that where you have it should not affect the engine temp if you have a fully functioning pump. We have seen it in that location before with no problems. You should be good to go. Of course, as always just watch your gauges. (I would tell you that even without installing anything lol)." Guys, I really apologize for the redundancy but thought some of you might enjoy the whole story … I had been sitting on the sideline without being able to post anything for the last several days … Keith fixed the database issue and I can finally participate! Here it goes … the original post that I had intended is set out below: Guys, I need your help. We are once again getting ready to de-winterize our ol'94 Ski Nautique in anticipation of our annual ski vacation in KY. I had our boat repaired as part of the winterization and have set out some images of the results below. I have been corresponding a bit with our mutual pal Marty on some of my questions/concerns and he suggested that I post this up for some clarification. I replaced the drive shaft (w/ A.R.E. double taper), "upgraded" to a dripless system (PSS seal), and, of course, a new prop … I tried to get my boat mechanic to replace the castle bearing (I even ordered a new one as part of my order from SKIDIM), but he indicated that he did not replace castle bearings … only struts along with new bearings and he further indicated that my bearing and strut were in excellent shape and he could not justify replacing them. As I told Marty, I kind of had to go with it … (I really like my boat mechanic and he has been consistently working on ski boats in the Denver area for over 25 years … a kind of delicate situation for me, at least in my opinion). Here are my questions: 1) is the dripless system plumbed correctly?—although I had hoped to wet-test this prior to our vacation, the Colorado weather and reservoir levels may prevent me from doing so—I want to ensure that it is at least rigged correctly, 2) do I need to add a two-piece safety collar ahead of the PSS system or does the "collar"/stainless steel rotor suffice? I sent along a similar e-mail to SKIDIM earlier this week and received the following response: "The rotor can act as a safety collar. The placement of the T-fitting concerns us. It should be plumed to the port side exhaust manifold feed hose, by putting it before the thermostat housing. You may not get enough water to maintain proper engine temperature." So, at the very least, it looks like I need to have the T-fitting moved to the port side exhaust manifold feed hose. Alright, I know that enough is enough … however, can someone please clarify what size what hoses are our on our Ford power plant (351 HO Pro Boss w/Pro Tec Ignition), the PCM number on the hoses are P/N R045004—I want to ensure that I have the correct hoses to make the necessary correction(s)? Here are the post-repair images for you guys to review. I hope that they are self-explanatory and know that I greatly appreciate your help!  My mechanic assures me that the alignment is perfect …    Our new Acme 422 (from Delta Prop Co):   For those who might be interested (Marty was seeking some clarification as to whether or not the PSS stainless steel rotor spins and rubs on the carbon graphite flange ahead of the nitrile bellow), I have posted the PSS instructions: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47845656/PSS%20Installation%20Instructions%20%281%29.pdf" rel="nofollow - Instruction Set 1 and https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47845656/PSS%20Installation%20Instructions%20%282%29.pdf" rel="nofollow - Instruction Set 2 |
Posted By: gsyogi
Date Posted: June-28-2015 at 1:08am
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Paul, thanks for your help … Keith fixed the database and I was able to post up my "original" post; however, I doubt that anyone will want to read it. As I stated in the original post, I wanted to change the strut and bearing as well … however, I tried to get my boat mechanic to replace the castle bearing (I even ordered a new one as part of my order from SKIDIM), but he indicated that he did not replace castle bearings … only struts along with new bearings and he further indicated that my bearing and strut were in excellent shape and he could not justify replacing them. As I told Marty, I kind of had to go with it … (I really like my boat mechanic and he has been consistently working on ski boats in the Denver area for over 25 years … a kind of delicate situation for me, at least in my opinion). My question for you primarily concerns the "plumbing" … I sent an e-mail earlier this week to the folks at SKIDIM and here is how they replied: "The rotor can act as a safety collar. The placement of the T-fitting concerns us. It should be plumed to the port side exhaust manifold feed hose, by putting it before the thermostat housing. You may not get enough water to maintain proper engine temperature." Please compare that with your opinion and that of the kind folks at Nautiqueparts.com, see the following: "I have confirmed that it is 1'' hose. I have checked with everyone here and we all agree that where you have it should not affect the engine temp if you have a fully functioning pump. We have seen it in that location before with no problems. You should be good to go. Of course, as always just watch your gauges. (I would tell you that even without installing anything lol)." Finally, you must understand that I am so very Type-A that the silicone dripping from the strut area nearly "sent me over the edge" (much less as for Pete). My question is how do I fix it … smear some 3M 5200 over the heads? Suggestions … as our little skier sits in the water during our two-week vacation? Again, much thanks! |