Cracked Block
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35123
Printed Date: November-21-2024 at 2:49pm
Topic: Cracked Block
Posted By: jhersey29
Subject: Cracked Block
Date Posted: December-08-2014 at 2:45pm
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Well the machine shop cleaned the block and found a crack using magnaflux. Ugh!!! Well they are wondering if in the new/used block I want a roller cam instead of flat tappet? What is the answer given cost is not out of the question. They also found a crack in one of the heads. Oh boy how I love buying used things. The boat was in my garage all the time and it doesn't get below 40 in the garage. The boat came from Phoenix but it figures the guy probably never even let the water out of the engine due to how nice it normally is down there. At least it's winter and not the middle of the summer to figure this out. Just hope the local machine shop costs are near Jaspers $3000 price. |
Replies:
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: December-08-2014 at 2:48pm
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What boat and what engine? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: jhersey29
Date Posted: December-08-2014 at 4:33pm
| 1999 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: December-08-2014 at 5:13pm
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I'm going with a Flat Tappet from Cam Research for my rebuild. I couldn't find enough info or anybody that had done a roller cam in an EFI GT-40. From what I understand to this point it should be possible but I chose not to be a guinea pig. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: December-09-2014 at 12:45am
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Yeah I would roller cam that in a second. If they can find you a roller block and some stock lifters there should be plenty of cam choices out there. If it were me I would be looking for a relatively low mileage roller short block out of the junkyard to slap a top end on and go skiing . ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: December-10-2014 at 10:31am
Sounds like this guy knows what he is talking about?  Howdy Joe ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
JoeinNY wrote:Posted By: jhersey29
Date Posted: December-10-2014 at 10:42am
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Below is what I recieved back from a PCM rep. This thing is stressing me out! The guy at the machine shop says the cam is nothing more than a lightning cam. I found another article old article where the lightning cam didn't work due to an idle problem. The guy at the machine shop is saying the rockers are a different size than the lightning and if just buying the lightning motor that wouldn't match up correctly. He says he can piece it together with a roller setup that will work. I can't remember all the details and he's still working on a parts list. In simple terms shouldn't be as simple as convert to roller with a cam that matches the specs of the cam in it. Of course I can't find the PCM cam specs anywhere. I have to rely on the machine shop and that they measured it and didn't just read the numbers on it. My fear is that it is the original lightning cam with a custom grind on it for PCM. I can't find anyone who would be able to reprogram the ECM. I don't know the cost of a custom ECM and not a darn shop in Denver is willing to work on the GT40 motors. I don't think any of them know what EEC-IV is or how it works any better this this backyard mechanic(myself). Anyonw know a good EEC-IV tunner in Denver that would be willing to reprogram the ECM if I have issues. Would really not be good to go roller than find out it doesn't run right and have to tear the motor apart again. I'm on a budget :-( PCM - "We only built flat tappet 5.8L Ford engines here, so it would be up to you which way you go but if replacing the base engine using all your existing parts from us you must stay with a flat tappet engine base. If you go with a roller cam engine already set up as a completed engine package then I'm sure that would be fine too, just don’t use our ECM or fuel system on it." |
Posted By: jhersey29
Date Posted: December-10-2014 at 10:49am
| Well I just saw Cam Research is near me. I'll call them to see what they say. If anyone has done this or can help put this puzzle together please do. This EEC-IV and lack of people willing to work on it scares the ... out of me. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: December-10-2014 at 11:04am
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The ECM can't tell whether a cam is a roller or not. It's limitation is the fact that its pre-programmed fuel tables cannot compensate for better flowing induction parts (heads/intake/cam). If you change any of those parts, you need to make sure the changes are mild enough such that the engine is not leaned out under any conditions. A wild head change or huge roller cam may be unadvisable with the stock programming, but sufficiently tame parts should be ok. I believe that is what joe is suggesting. We have seen a few successful head swaps (GT40 to GT40p) which I believe proves there's a little bit of head room in the stock tune. Measuring the old cam should get you the info you need. I would not advise switching to 1.7 rockers if that is what the lightning used (I know the '93 gt40-headed mustang cobra did). No reason you can't reuse your old stamped 1.6's on any of the factory iron heads you're likely to consider. Changing the tune (fuel maps) is a whole different project that could get complicated and/or expensive, so I'd be sure to know what you're getting into before venturing down that path. The PCM ECM is locked down so you can't simply "tweak" their baseline, you'd be starting from scratch. There are companies out there that sell marine efi tunes, whether they have the expertise needed to do this on a Ford may be something worth lookin into. |
Posted By: Waterdog
Date Posted: December-10-2014 at 11:54am
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Call Scott at Cam Research and like Tim said use stock or close to stock induction parts and go. ------------- - waterdog - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=3896&sort=&pagenum=2&yrstart=1978&yrend=1978" rel="nofollow - 78 Ski Tique |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: December-10-2014 at 12:47pm
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We are in a similar boat... Pun intended. If you see my earlier post you will notice I considered and researched at length the swap to a roller cam with the stock ECM and couldn't find anyone that had done so. I still think it is completely possible but would come at a cost and probably involve tuning. I ended up with a broken in/new cam and lifter set from Cam Research. Scott had a few different suggestions on cam grinds. I ended up going with essentially a stock replacement. |
Posted By: lewy2001
Date Posted: December-10-2014 at 8:17pm
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I am with Tim here the fuel and ignition tables in the EEC1V ECM are fairly conservative. They would cope with almost any mild cam and head upgrade within reason. ------------- If you're going through hell, keep going http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2999" rel="nofollow - 89 Ski <a href="http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5685" ta |
Posted By: malibud
Date Posted: December-11-2014 at 10:46am
| When I replaced my GT40 (frozen from PO) I had saw some where or was told, that PCM advised not to bore block more than 30 over(I thinK )due to computer/fuel issues. |
Posted By: jhersey29
Date Posted: December-12-2014 at 1:10pm
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I'm wondering if I should go with a long block motor from Michigan Motorz or Jasper. The machine shop is slow trying to figure this out and I'm worried. I like the idea of the local machine shop doing it but am nervous. I'm a nervous nanny right now and can't sleep very well due to thinking about this everynight. http://www.michiganmotorz.com/ford-marine-engine-p-3177.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.michiganmotorz.com/ford-marine-engine-p-3177.html - They show HP range up to 310 so it makes me think it has to be the same long block as a GT40. Upgrade price for GT heads but still a few hundred less than Jasper. Jasper Engines can't link to it but they show the below. I wonder why they don't say up to 310 HP. Jasper includes the GT Heads. My distributor gear runs top right to lower left but has a cast iron timing cover so I don't quite get that note. Product summary: 233-250 HP, Fuel Injected, Firing Order 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8, Timing Chain, High Output Engine, Ford Motorsport GT Heads, Dipstick tube in Oil Pan, 1 Piece Rear Seal, Cast-iron Timing Cover, 12 Bolts Holding Intake Manifold to Cylinder Heads, NOTE*** THE INTAKE GASKETS IN THE INCLUDED FINISH GASKET SET ARE CUT TO FIT. IDENTIFY APPLICATION AND CUT IF NECESSARY. Block casting location: PASSENGER SIDE-AT PAN RAIL Crank casting location: BETWEEN #1 MAIN & #1 ROD JOURNALS Head casting location: BOTTOM OF HEAD UNDER 2ND INTAKE PORT FIRING ORDER 13726548, FLYWHEEL TURNS COUNTER CLOCKWISE HARMONIC BALANCER TURNS CLOCKWISE SPECIFY IF ENGINE HAS CAST IRON TIMING COVER COMPLETE ENGINE WILL COME WITH ALUMINUM TIMING COVER AND TIN OIL PAN. IF ORIGINAL ENGINE HAS EITHER A CAST IRON OR ALUMINUM OIL PAN OR CAT IRON TIMING COVER IT IS RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CUSTOMER TO CHANGE ENGINE DISTRIBUTOR GEAR RUNS TOP RIGHT TO LOWER LEFT |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: December-12-2014 at 1:21pm
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I was sold on Michigan Motorz if I was going to order a complete long block. I went the local route as I have several friends that have used them with good results. |
Posted By: malibud
Date Posted: December-12-2014 at 1:37pm
| + 1 on Michigan motor I have heard good things ask how much they bore. Dont worry take your time long time before summer. Another option is a used motor check ski again. I found one complete on the west coast and had it shipped to the east coast and sold off a lot of my old parts. Another option if you find a chevy ex-caliber PCM makes a pigtail and front engine mounts for a conversion (about 4oo@ skidim). A lot of people are going to 0-off |
Posted By: BuffaloBFN
Date Posted: December-12-2014 at 1:45pm
The machine shop is either familiar with marine engines or they aren't; not much gray area in my experience. ------------- http://correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=2331&sort=&pagenum=12&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - 1988 BFN-sold "It's a Livin' Thing...What a Terrible Thing to Lose" ELO |
Posted By: Treybizttu
Date Posted: December-12-2014 at 1:47pm
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There is a complete GT40 less trans in CA on Ski it Again right now. Price seems a little steep to me but it's probably worth a look. |
Posted By: jhersey29
Date Posted: December-12-2014 at 2:02pm
| I emailed the seller the other day. I'm not sure I want another block that isn't rebuilt. He's swapping to an engine that supports ZO. It seems odd to me that some with a 14 year old boat with an engine that only has 500 hours would even need to upgrade to ZO. If your able to ski enough that it matters in competition I would think the motor would have more hours. Heck I put 200 hours on my boat this year. I guess the used thing scares me at the moment. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: December-12-2014 at 3:11pm
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I bought a boat last year, 95 GT40 with 100 original hours on it. Many people buy boats and never use them. I would not hesitate to buy a used engine with low hours if I could get them to do a compression check and guarantee the block was good. The compression should be even in all 8 cylinders, + or - 10 lbs is OK but they should all be very close if the engine is good. Well cared for the 351W engines have lasted as much as 3,500 hours. I had one go 900 hours then I did head swap and ran it to 1,500 hours before selling it. Keep in mind if you buy a rebuilt engine you will get zero or a reduced amount of core value from your old block since the block is cracked, this may add $250 to the cost of your new Engine. Most rebuilders pay core value after inspection of your old block. Core value varies depending on the current value of your engine. A 351W would be more rare than a 302 block and the more rare the block the higher the core value. |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: December-12-2014 at 9:38pm
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I put GT-40P heads and a slightly better cam(cam research) in my '95 and it runs pretty darn good. I have the orignal flat tappet cam and lifters from the '95 had about 450 hrs on it, if anybody is interested. And I have a stock roller cam and roller lifters out of a used motor I used for the block if anyone wants them. |
Posted By: jhersey29
Date Posted: December-12-2014 at 10:16pm
Is it Gt40 with MPI? Did you go roller? |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: December-13-2014 at 8:03am
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It's the GT-40 EFI MPI in my '95. I stayed with the flat tappet in that one. If I was to do it again I would probably go roller. |
Posted By: jhersey29
Date Posted: December-15-2014 at 9:01pm
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I was able to get the CAM part number from PCM. The Ford P/N for the cam is F1JE-6250-BA and the pistons are F1JE-6108-AA. Also ran into this tool for some part look ups. http://catalog.elginind.com/app/Engine.asp?mfg=FORD+MARINE&model=004&cat=Camshaft%20%20" rel="nofollow - http://catalog.elginind.com/app/Engine.asp?mfg=FORD+MARINE&model=004&cat=Camshaft |
Posted By: jhersey29
Date Posted: December-15-2014 at 9:07pm
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Also found the lightning cam on there it is definately not the same as the marine. http://catalog.elginind.com/app/Engine_tech.asp?part=E%2D881%2DS&category=Camshaft" rel="nofollow - http://catalog.elginind.com/app/Engine_tech.asp?part=E%2D881%2DS&category=Camshaft |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: December-16-2014 at 1:15am
Not sure those are the right specs for the stock cam. I'll check my numbers when I get home tomorrow. |
Posted By: jhersey29
Date Posted: December-16-2014 at 1:20am
Yet another mystery about this darn engine. Would be great to confirm. I can't find much else on that cam. |