Building a house
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URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35233
Printed Date: January-22-2025 at 10:44am
Topic: Building a house
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Subject: Building a house
Date Posted: January-03-2015 at 2:56pm
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We're most likely going to build on a piece of property. I started the thread about living in the country, but thought a house build thread might be good. Seems like there may be one person in the middle of a build and at least one other planning it. For our build, we're thinking country/rustic/farmhouse style blending, with an open floor plan and a moderate size/price. Some things being considered... concrete floors metal roof jack & jill bath or teen suites 2 car garage, oversized with extra room to one side for workspace. small concrete drive with gravel drive the remainder large front porch and back patio blend of electric and gas (propane) appliances wood stove as primary heat source tankless water heaters electric heat pump Thoughts and ideas or experience with any of these items? |
Replies:
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-03-2015 at 4:03pm
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Tankless water heaters are great,we have a Bosch Aquastar that I put in in 03. Putting one in a new house will even be easier,took me 2 days on a retro fit because of the larger flu needed and wall reinforcement. No idea on the roof but when we need a new one in Florida I was going to go that route too ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: January-03-2015 at 4:45pm
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Only do tankless if it's gas. I do not recommend electric tankless heaters and have seen quite a few changed out to old fashioned tank. I still prefer a tank if it's electric. It's just my wife and I so I have a timer on mine for 1 hour every morning and it's enough hot water for us and will keep the water hot all day and believe me, saves on the power bill. Do not try if it's more than a 2 person family. On my first house, I had nice curved concrete driveway then on expansion I did lava rock on the exposed area and 57 rock (crushed concrete) behind the fenced area. I did probably a 5,000 sq ft area of gravel. It was a nightmare! The biggest headache I ever encountered to where I had to sell the house to get out if the gravel. Leaves fall in it and that's the end of it. You can kinda blow it off in a heavy gravel like the 57 rock but still a nightmare, the lava rock was even worse. And make sure you upgrade your wire a minimum of 2 sizes everywhere. I promise in 2 years the extra expense will pay you back due to less voltage drop. Save $ and go with aluminum on anything over #6. A good electrician can terminate AL with no issues. |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: January-03-2015 at 8:33pm
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tankless gas 200k btu lp is fine. radiant heat in foyer , kitchen, and baths if possible if its your retirement home also larger doorways,and the ability to have a full bath and bedroom on the first floor. walk in showers with no doors. 3x5 will cover that . a garage deeper rather than wider if possible. hot dawg heater in there L.P on the water heater i use navien 240 k combis that you can get some baseboard or radiant off of plus 7.5 gal per min dhw. a heat pump or mitsubishi splits will give you all the a/c and quick heat to cover your area. +1 on the standing seam metal roof. front porches are a romantic idea but generally are a waste of $ i would spend it on the front entry and the back of the house.......just my 2 cents ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: January-03-2015 at 8:36pm
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woah i am a grand poobah and only own formula ,when did that happen? ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-03-2015 at 9:48pm
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Andy, Reliability of a tankless water heater is very dependent on water quality. Metal roof are great but do not get the cheap stuff from Menards. Go with the concealed fastener type. With the heat pump, consider geothermal. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: January-03-2015 at 9:54pm
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reliability depends on maintenance because of water quality. with e heat pump look at the cost of utilities where you are building long before geo thermal. ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: Tim D
Date Posted: January-03-2015 at 10:59pm
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Metal roofs have good warranty (color fade etc.), but the screws that hold them on have no guarantee, you know, that little rubber washer under the screw head, exposed to sun, cracks=leaks. But hey,I don't know anything. ------------- Tim D |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-03-2015 at 11:17pm
You must be looking at or buying the cheap stuff (from Menards?) or don't know other metal systems available. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Tim D wrote:Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-03-2015 at 11:55pm
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I have only seen the roofs with screws in Florida,might be a hurricane thing there ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 12:13am
On a concealed fastener standing seam roof, the screws are under the steel. Evidently Floridians only shop for the cheap stuff at Menards too.  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 12:19am
| What the heck is a Menards!? I know finding a roofer, or anyone for that matter, in Florida who is pro metal roof is impossible. Standing seam only seems to make sense to me. |
Posted By: SWANY
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 1:51am
Todd- Menards is "home improvement store" here in the Midwest. Like Lowes and Home Depot, but they focus more on to selling to the contractor than home owner. They also have more a variety than the other big box stores, sometimes resulting selling a lower grade product... |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 11:12am
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Some other thoughts/ideas... j-bar or bar in the kitchen with upper (eating area) and lower counters; lower counter all butcher block wood counter tops in bathrooms LED lighting throughout Some images that capture some of the ideas... Gravel drive with some concrete in front of the garage  Concrete floors...   Wood bathroom counters  Eating bar with butcher block  Farmhouse type of porch  Farmhouse/DIY type fixture ideas...    Wood stove with rock platform... 
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Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 11:16am
One of the builders I've been chatting with suggests the small under counter electric units in multiple spots, which is what we are considering. So, why gas and why not do it if more than 2 people? What are your concerns there? |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 11:19am
Water quality as in hard or soft water? Have you done geothermal? How did it compare to heat pump or other options? |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 11:31am
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Let me back up. Running a standard water heater for only 1 hour a day is effective for 2 people. Any more than that and schedules get out of sync and somebody get a cold shower and has a cranky day. The amount of electric necessary for a whole house insta hot is astronomical. Youll actually spend more in electric that route. Gas seems to be more efficient but I'm not certain, gas isn't popular in the warm sunny state. individual POS units at the kitchen sink, good idea but still stick with a standard water heater also. A good friend of mine has a whole house insta hot. His electric bill is steady but when guest stay for a weekend or so, he'll see a significant spike in his bill. After dealing with the insta hot for 2 years, he's considering going back to a tank and relocating it in attic. |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 11:39am
| OK, that gives some things to consider. The contractor was leaning towards 4-6 electric small units (kitchen/laundry, master bath, one in each additional bath, etc). |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 11:57am
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If you don't go with the small under sink units I would at least rough in the wiring so it would be an easy addition if then needed. Also think about a design that uses no gutters and check about driveway materials, here concrete is considered permanent and is taxed accordingly,asphalt and brick are not. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 11:58am
| Why no gutters? |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 12:19pm
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Don't have to worry about them getting full of leaves and seeds and clogging up,climbing ladders to clean them out is a pain would rather spend the time boating than doing home maintance. And come to think of it using sticks to build and crushing berries to color our homes seems archaic too ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 1:08pm
Andy, The tankless HW's suffer from scaling/"plating" up with hard water, the efficiency drops way off and the reason maintenance was mentioned. If hard water is run through them. A descaling acid must then be run through the tubes. I agree Gary with no gutters. I personally have not done a geothermal but know plenty who have for both heating and cooling. The economy up here where it's cold is for heating. It is a heat pump but unloads it BTU needs to a constant temperature water supply. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 1:17pm
| I can see the maintenance side of the gutters. I like the idea of collecting the water and directing it, especially to a rain water collection tank. The maintenance versus the benefit is definitely something to consider. |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 2:56pm
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On the tankless Petes right make sure whoever puts it in makes accommidations for isolating to de scale. geothermal is either the cost of a deep well or a field system then the looping ,equipment and installation cost . it is very prohibitive.the offset is if you live in a cold climate the payback is that much quicker. All the answers to your questions and thoughts by us should be taken with a grain of salt with your loccation factored in. ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 3:07pm
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the only reason to use a point of use tankless under sink is if the main dhw supply is at a distance and it buys you a few seconds before the main source gets there. as far as shutting any water heaterI believe even a 40 gal l.p water heater only sheds 2 degrees per hr at 65 degrees ambient temp. Tankless water heaters in the 200k btu range will give you from 7 to 9 gpm depending on ground water temp and manufacture. and i have never seen one that wont give a family of 5 enough for a normal shower schedule. and have installed appr 30 of them in different forms ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 4:56pm
Andy, I agree with Peter and question your reasoning for tankless and even more, point of use tankless. Propane or natural gas will be less expensive to operate no matter what part of the country you live in. The few extra seconds waiting for the hot water to make it from a central HWH can be overcome with a return loop. Yes there will be some heat loss but not much if you insulate the hot water lines. What main heating system are you planning? If hydronic, consider a "side arm" HWH off the heating boiler. I love mine! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 5:17pm
| Quick hot water, not running out of hot water and long term cost savings are the main considerations. From what I understand, they use less energy to give you the hot water you need. The quicker hot water isn't a real big deal, but could be nice. We plan to go with a central heat and cooling system with a heat pump (most likely). Our true primary source of heat would be a wood stove, but we will still have central heat. I don't think many people do boilers here. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 5:56pm
A side benefit for me with the heater was the floor space gain and the fact that in 15 years I went thru 2 standard heaters,my Bosch is now on it's 12 year which I just jinked myself  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 6:06pm
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I am definitely more an advocate for the tankless l.p system unless you do use a hydronic heating system .if you do a boilermate type system would be fine. ok enough mechanical talk now lets talk color choices and drapes and such......... ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 6:11pm
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Andy, Heating with wood is great but not without expense and work. You posted a picture of a free standing air tight wood stove. Any thoughts about heat distribution through the house? Speaking of hot water, I installed a water jacket in my air tight and make hot water at the same time when it's fired up. Gary, 2 HWH's in 15 years? Wow, where did you get them? Menards? I'm going on 33 for my A.O. Smith pro max!------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 6:19pm
| We will probably get a stove sized for the whole house, with fan and are planning a fairly open floor plan. We like our main room warm and the bedrooms cool. We both grew up with this type of configuration and our parents would use the central HVAC to move the air, if needed, but most of the time they were satisfied with the stove's heating without any further circulation. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 6:25pm
I used this method when I first installed my air tight and then, the electric bill came in........ Do you know how many KWH's a 1/2 HP blower motor uses - it adds up! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Tim D
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 8:42pm
Some states it's illegal to collect rain water. I know Colorado is one of them. ------------- Tim D |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 9:20pm
Tim, Andy is in Oklahoma. Oklahoma: "Update February 27, 2014 regarding Oklahoma: The state government of Oklahoma encourages rain water harvesting. So does Oklahoma City" ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Tim D
Date Posted: January-04-2015 at 10:04pm
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Yes Pete, I know which state he's in, I saw the OK under his name. I just remember reading about the drought situation in the west and some of the strict rules. I didn't try to remember all of them, but the Colorado rain collecting stuck. The state thinks they own the rain. ------------- Tim D |
Posted By: uk1979
Date Posted: January-05-2015 at 10:28am
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I added a enclosed wood burner with water jacket to my nat/gas tank system ...so now if the wood burner is running it will automatically shuts down the gas boiler on the HW/CH when up to temp and will switch back to gas if the wood burner is left to burn out, the nat/gas boiler also heats the wood burner jacket for faster wood fire HW/CH... last year's cold quarter gas bill was cut buy around $460.00 ...It took me a bit of head scratch and piping to do, should have over a 20 year life cycle now... I know you guys have cheep nat/gas from fracking not so sure on your propane/electric costs in the USA. ------------- Lets have a go 56 Starflite 77 SN 78 SN 80 BFN |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-05-2015 at 5:13pm
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I'm wondering if radiant heat flooring here is overkill. We don't get get that cold, nor do we typically remain real cold for extended periods of time...this is what our average temperatures are like: January Average High: 46.7 Average Low: 25.2 Average Precipitation: 1.1 February Average High: 52.1 Average Low: 29.6 Average Precipitation: 1.6 March Average High: 62 Average Low: 38.5 Average Precipitation: 2.7 April Average High: 71.9 Average Low: 48.8 Average Precipitation: 2.8 May Average High: 79.1 Average Low: 57.7 Average Precipitation: 5.2 June Average High: 87.3 Average Low: 66.1 Average Precipitation: 4.3 July Average High: 93.4 Average Low: 70.6 Average Precipitation: 2.6 August Average High: 92.5 Average Low: 69.6 Average Precipitation: 2.6 September Average High: 83.8 Average Low: 62.2 Average Precipitation: 3.8 October Average High: 73.6 Average Low: 50.4 Average Precipitation: 3.2 November Average High: 60.4 Average Low: 38.6 Average Precipitation: 2.0 December Average High: 49.9 Average Low: 28.6 Average Precipitation: 1.4 |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: January-05-2015 at 6:30pm
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Radiant isnt cheap. if you have bare concrete floors with area rugs or tile then consider it .otherwise stick with heat pump style hvac or forced hot water (yuck) ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: CrazyCanuck
Date Posted: January-05-2015 at 9:51pm
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My feet are sore just thinking of standing on hard concrete while making dinner of entertaining in the kitchen. Why not vinyl plank or something to soften up things? Also if you do a tile or natural stone floor you can use the electric floor heating system which is way cheaper that a hot water system. Save you from having to do a boiler for the whole house and use forced air heat with cooling for the summer instead. ------------- https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRtW3vJrMHLdqBzndt9VX3oOpBuRopGlzKq9Ea7pAO7wnTuoD8E8g |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-05-2015 at 10:13pm
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Cory, Electric for heat? Do you own stocks in power companies? BTW, those embedded electric radiant systems are known to be a problem with reliability. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-05-2015 at 10:19pm
My in-laws have concrete and I've never noticed a difference in flooring. We've almost always had tile and never had issues...seems like concrete isn't much different. Any experience that has shown it is distinctly different? The point you're making is something I've read when researching, but wonder how that plays out. |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: January-05-2015 at 10:36pm
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I have tile in my kitchen and definitely feel it when I stand in there for awhile. I usually am in stocking feet. I am amazed at the difference between even hard wood vs tile to stand on. Makes me wonder if if it is the hardness or the ability of the ceramic tile to suck the heat out of your feet that makes the feet ache? Of course maybe I just stand in one spot longer in the kitchen than anywhere else. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: January-05-2015 at 11:09pm
| I've always had tile in every room and don't think anything of it. Throw rug at the sink, throw rug at stove, couple washes then toss and another $20 were back in business. But I'm still almost young and am on hard concrete all day long. I like polished concrete a lot, or even a nice acid finish. I thought about it in the house but never had opportunity to start with pretty, fresh, virgin concrete. If I could ever warrant the cost I'd do it in my garage. |
Posted By: CrazyCanuck
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 2:34am
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Hard floors is why they put anti fatigue mats behind the counters in stores. Its tough on you. Yes it looks great and so on, but not the warmest or most comfortable thats for sure. And no Pete, I don't...lol. I wish. I know they are cheaper and can fail over time, but the reason I offered the elec heat mat as a suggestion is that if you do a full radiant in floor, then that is going to be the system for the house. Then how to you add air conditioning? Unless you do two separate hvac systems then you kinda need forced air, either with a heat pump or a conventional furnace with air conditioning. That makes the heat mat a nice touch to keep the bathroom and kitchen floors warm. They only cost a couple light bulbs worth of power to run, and you only use them half the year or so. They are not intended for whole house heat. Just my 2 cents. Plus its been 7 years since I took my Home Depot apron off so my facts are a bit cloudy....lol ------------- https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRtW3vJrMHLdqBzndt9VX3oOpBuRopGlzKq9Ea7pAO7wnTuoD8E8g |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 8:22am
You have better add up the needed BTU's and convert to watts. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 2:28pm
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you can run cold water through a radiant floor to help with cooling in the summer.... and naturally concrete feels cooler than the ambient air, so that helps as well on the cooling side of things. If I had a new home building project going on, I would definitely consider radiant floors. Geothermal is cool, but there is a lot of expense to it. A bit of expense now keeps your monthly bills down. I spent a good chucnk on a 96% furnace with oversized ducts and good insulation at our last house, and my bill was cut by more than 50% over our old worn out 80% furnace and nasty flex duct. On the radiant heat, one big benefit that I can see is you don't have furnace fan noise and filters to change. I agree that the concrete floors are going to be hard on your feet/back over time, but if you do some anti-fatigue mats in the important spots, it's hard to beat the look of those floors! |
Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 3:00pm
My experience was the same, huge difference in efficiency, worth the extra bucks! Okie, ignore if already discussed, did not read entire thread: garage doors, consider using 8' high door(s) especially if garage level framing is greater then 9'. low maintenance exterior finishes, cedar and other wood or painted/stained finishes look great but can be a PITA and Wallet, lot's of great options that look good and require little or no maintenance. metal roof will be quite a bit more money, consider a nice architectural asphalt shingle, particularly if your long term plan is less then 20yrs. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 3:29pm
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I grew up in a house with a slab,granted it was 50's technology but still,here in the Chicago area it was cold. When they added wall to wall carpet it was the best thing they ever did other than going to Florida for the winter! As to the high efficiency furnaces they sure are high maintance too,just replaced the exhaust blower,my 3rd one in 11 years,glad it acted up when I was home rather than down south ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 4:27pm
I totally agree. If I wasn't able to do the repairs on my 2 - 93%'rs myself, and had to have a hvac serviceman in, I question the payback. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 4:35pm
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Well Pete maybe you need to avoid that Home Depot garbage, lol. My last one ran 10yrs on nothing but filter changes, not a single service call. Brand new HE unit just installed at the new house, we will see how this one goes. |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 4:41pm
I have always been a big fan of Trane for this reason... slower on rolling out new products, but very reliable in the end. I dislike some of the other brands because they are too quick to market the newest innovation and leave the end user to be a beta tester for them. Yes, 95% furnaces do require more maintenance... For the purchase price, I saw the payback in just 2 years. I did the install myself, so that part didn't factor in... sorry for the thread jack Okie :) to bring it back on track.... if you do go radiant, another benefit is that your slab won't make your ductwork inaccessible. Under floor ductwork is more efficient for heating than overhead ductwork, so if you decide to use forced air, and put the ducts under the slab, be aware that they need to be insulated well (on the outside... duct liner sucks), or you can have mold issues. They are not accessible if you want to change repair or move something. inaccessibility is also true of radiant, but you would tap new zones off of the header if you ever add on to the house. |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 4:57pm
I put a Trane Hi-Ef furnace in about 7 years ago and I have yet to do anything but clean the filters. The system tells me when they need cleaning and I pull the unit out and vacuum all the elements, about a 15 minute job every 3 months. Going with reusable filters I haven't spent a penny out of pocket since installing it. What is the extra maintenance cost you all are talking about with HiEf? |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 5:07pm
| No worries...the thread is going just as I'd hoped...lots of great information and things I hadn't really thought about. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 5:45pm
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My two original 93's were ARCLA Tranes new about 29 years ago and one of the first ones on the market. After 5 years both needed $220.00 control conversions. About every 3 years both needed hot surface ignitors. Then 2 years ago the downstairs one developed a hole in the primary heat exchanger. It was replaced with a Lenox 93. All in all, they have been good to be but the repairs would have been triple the cost if done by a pro. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 6:04pm
Ok Last of my thread jacks. Sorry but Pete those are repairs not maintenance costs, that's what I was curious about since I've had neither. And 27 years on a heat exchanger is pretty darn good. I put a new $12,000 rooftop on my business 5 years ago and last year I had to replace the heat exchanger, just out of warranty of course. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 6:09pm
Well, Gary started it with "repairs" stating he keeps having to put new draft inducers in his!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 7:52pm
At 7 years in you are about where you should be knocking on wood when you say that. $800 for a control board last Superbowl Saturday on my dads top o the line carrier (with me putting it in, tech wanted to replace the wiring harness as well quoted a week leadtime and another 6-7 hundo for the part and install, apparently he doesn't have the correct pin extractors for those plugs). He was at year 6. I have put in a few draft inducers for my siblings. If it has a ceramic igniter you should keep a spare, they are wear items. At this point it is more the extra features that drive the extra parts and the extra repairs, not necessarily the efficiency. I would never buy a unit without a ECM fan motor - but if one goes you are going to pay a lot of money for a replacement ($500) that likely wont have the same program and features as the original did. It is what it is... nothing too terrible but they just don't give 30 years of trouble free service, they weren't designed to. 15 years is considered full service life, a major repair or two to get you that far is pretty common. Some units do better of course. Keeping the unit clean, including vacuuming around the inside of the control box once a year goes a long way towards keeping the temp of the control boards down and increasing the life of the board mounted relays. Keeping filters serviced, proper thermostat replacement, proper duct sizing, and proper unit sizing all help reduce short cycling and increase life. The biggest mistake one can make is buying a unit that is too big, and in my experience 90% of units sold are too big by at least one size. I wouldn't hesitate going with a high efficiency unit if you need to buy a new one, but I usually recommend not replacing a perfectly good unit that is working just to get in a high efficiency unit. In a reasonably well insulated house it is hard to make up the cost of the unit in its lifetime. As for geothermal units someday when natural gas is kaput they will be all the rage, I designed the first fully variable speed geothermal heat pump back about a year before natural gas peaked. Too bad for them the marketing group dragged their feet on it an didn't get it released until last year, the 7 cop heating and 60 eer cooling can't compete with sub 50 dollar a barrel oil. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 8:01pm
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If you fix it before it breaks,it's maintenance if it's broke it's repair I was lucky in that I was able to take it apart and get it working again. I bought a new one for 370! so that when I'm back in Florida I don't get the phone call that the heats out and will keep the old one for a spare. Pete is there someone around Chicago where I could walk in to get parts? I ordered this one of the internet and got it the next day which this time worked out. I know you cannot compair apples to oranges but in the 57 years my old Bryant was here I had one service call to replace a gas valve,and changed one thermocouple and one blower motor myself. This Carrier installed in '03 has now had 3 exhaust blowers,a gas valve and a ignitor. All but the last motor requiring a service call. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 8:03pm
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Joe is a flame sensor a good to have spare too or did I get one for nothing? Anything else other than an ignitor and exhaust blower for spares,I give up! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 8:14pm
| Thanks Joe, I understand all the repair costs and trust me I have experienced my share over the years but between my residence and my commercial properties I maintain 5 heating systems. The comments above lead me to believe that it costs more to maintain a HiE unit than a standard unit and I was wondering if I was not doing something with the HiE unit that I should be. All the units get an annual service under contract but that's essentially a cleaning, belt inspection and filter changes on the commercial units and a cleaning on the residential one. Just want to make sure I'm doing what I supposed to to keep them all running. Thanks |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 8:23pm
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you guys in other parts of the country sure do have some weird ideas . concrete without radiant? ductwork in a slab?? the only way through the floor ductwork is less efficient than thru floor is if you have some weird a** ductwork in slab... as far as 95 + units go it is going to be all you can get soon enough. I love them because I make more $ on parts and i can charge more per hr for my training and knowledge. ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 8:25pm
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Gary, The only place I know of is Automatic Appliance in Noridge on Lawrence where you can walk in for parts. You are probably better off on line since I know Automatic isn't cheap. I don't feel a flame sensor is worth having for a spare. They typically are just a rod in the flame that sends a signal back to the control. On the other hand, a ceramic ignitor (they are shaped like a closed end fork) should be kept as a spare. Grainger has them. BTW, I've never thought highly of Carrier. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 9:07pm
YUP... I've seen my share of ductwork poured in the slab, and under the slab for that matter. Tends to grow mold, sweat, and gets crushed by the concrete... not my favorite Idea, but if Okie is decides to do a forced air system, it can be done well, just takes planning and good engineering... most of our floors are non radiant... just comes with the mild weather we have here. I like the idea of it though, we have seen more installs in the last few years, but it's relatively uncommon.
not sure I get your question here, but I am curious about what you're asking/saying Alan - maintenance like cleaning filters/heat exchangers and making sure your condensate pumps/lines are not all gunked up sure helps to make everything work better, that's what I was referring to. old 80% furnaces just keep on running until they break. put a part or two in and then your good to go again. the basics are the same, but there is more stuff to go wrong on the HE units. Hot surface igniters are a wear item as Joe mentioned. if one goes out, its a solid 150 for a service call here, plus the part. I'd keep one on hand. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 9:19pm
I missed this Pete- 1st one was put in by the Plummerr who did the remodel ,think it was a Rhem,second was me,a Sears,cheap units for sure but these days I'd bet they are all the same,nothing is made to last at all although the Bosch seems well built. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: john b
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 9:53pm
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I have electric baseboard at the cottage with a thermostat in each room up in the "Great White North" near Pete's place. The place is a small shack at around 1800-2000' with little insulation and single pane windows. I shut the place down around the middle of November but I start it up a few times most winters for a long week end. it draws around 150amps of 220 for quite a while until the place warms up. It is not a cheap heat source, but it is clean and easy. I just signed a contract with WE Energy last month to bring natural gas to the cottage. I expect significant savings. My $0.02 on tankless. If you don't have an almost mineral free water supply don't do it. Pete is right on on this. BTW, my Jotul Oslo wood stove will heat the whole place and saves some $ if you want to deal with it. I have a Heatalator fireplace in the living room as well. It heats the room to very hot but doesn't have an outside air source so it doesn't provide heat like the Jotul. I love a fire so no problem houling wood and ash for me. ------------- 1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox" If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 10:10pm
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My parents home up north was all electric. They both passed in 2004 so that's the last electric bill I know of. It was budgeted at $725.00 per month. 5000 sq. ft. and no AC just heat. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: john b
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 10:16pm
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Sounds about right, maybe a bit more if I dont burn the Jotul. ------------- 1970 Mustang "Theseus' paradox" If everyone else is doing it, you're too late! |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 10:20pm
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the only way through the floor ductwork is less efficient than thru floor is if you have some weird a** ductwork in slab.. ha ha that made no sense. I was trying to say that there is not much if any difference running duct thru floor or thru ceilings . it all averages out when you factor coolings advantage thru ceiling and heats advantage thru floor. ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 10:31pm
| Have any of you had experience with spray foam insulation on the underside of the roof? |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 10:48pm
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5000 square feet that huge,I don't add up anywhere near that with 3! Kris your post about floor ducts brought back a memory from work. We had them there and one year all of a sudden we had water condensating and running down the windows and the walls. The companies maintenance guys came out and found that the ducts had filled with water so they rigged up some pumps and pumped it out. Few days later they are filled again,turns out a water line to the floor mounted washup sink had broke and kept filling them. The companies solution was to turn the thing off rather than fix it----- ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: January-06-2015 at 11:23pm
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-07-2015 at 12:13am
This is why high/low returns are good. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-07-2015 at 12:16am
I have not but do know that it creates a hot roof problem. Lot's of debate on the subject but mostly negative. Put the insulation where it should be and that's against the living space and then have plenty of ventilation in the attic. Don't forget a vapor barrier. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: SWANY
Date Posted: January-07-2015 at 12:44am
Plus one, I agree. If you go asphalt shingles it's my believe it shortening the life span of the shingles. |
Posted By: dochockey
Date Posted: January-07-2015 at 12:55am
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Are you putting in a basement ? I assuming your not because your thinking concrete floors ? where I grew up there are a lot of lake houses on slabs ( the ones right down by the water ). We did several remodels that we cut the concrete to place heat duct runs, not uncommon. If I was building from scratch and on a slab I would insulate underneath and run radiant floor heat, its clean no blowing dust though out the house. You can run tubing any where like the shower floor and walls, towel bars, the driveway, front walk, etc. just put down Persian rugs :) plus there is a infinite ways to color concrete. In the typical home, air conditioning uses more electricity than anything else—16% of total electricity used. There are ways to save on this and that is Fans, like a whole house fan, consider ac units that just cool particular rooms instead of the whole house. You mentioned a metal roof they are the best because they reflect more heat where asphalt absorbs and its recyclable. When I was in china I went to a Sears and walking through the Appliance section it was 2 stories tall and the one wall was just tank-less Water Heaters all the way up to the ceiling !! we are way behind in this field its slowly coming around. When I remodel My master Bath I'm putting one in but you definitely want to filter the water before the unit. As for insulating we have done all of the above, and again if I were doing it from scratch I would spray the walls with cellulose,and blown in in the attic and do the most R factor u can afford . Vent the soffits and have a ridge vent. Stucco for the exterior and last but not least a 3 car garage with tall ceilings, so you can have a car lift . My $0.02 ------------- 1989 Teal Ski Nautique 1967 Mustang Harris Float Sunfish |
Posted By: jbear
Date Posted: January-07-2015 at 1:38am
LOL...why am I not surprised? Same as in Ohio! john ------------- "Loud pipes save lives" AdamT sez "I'm Canadian and a beaver lover myself"... |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-07-2015 at 7:55am
You can not filter out dissolved solids (minerals). ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-07-2015 at 7:59am
Besides the asphalt shingle problem, the high heat of a non ventilated roof also degrades the roof decking but also, why heat/cool an unoccupied space? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-07-2015 at 8:18am
Spray insulation is expensive especially poly foam. I investigated it when I built my shop up north. I ended up with 2x6 walls with standard fiberglass batts and insulating board sheathing resulting in a R-28. Then the attic was blown with 18" of glass resulting in a R-66. The concrete floor with hydronic was insulated with foam below as well as it's perimeter (important) resulting in a R-20. The shop is twice the size of my little cabin and the heating cost is 25% of the house. Calculating the spray foam cost VS: 2x6 walls resulted in a ROI of 21 years!!  Spray foam is only beneficial when you have limited space (cavity) typically on existing construction or money to potentially waist! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: January-07-2015 at 9:48am
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y'all are way over engineering this. I have a 2200 living sq ft house with a well and lift pump on septic and my insulation is so thin my joist sit higher.... And last month my power bill was $97 tax, tag and title. I was gonna reinsulate but at that rate, why?
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-07-2015 at 9:59am
Todd, Your living in Florida sure helps! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-07-2015 at 2:16pm
| I'm already considering the foam in the walls, but a subcontractor we work with, for work, told me about a friend that had the inside of the roof foamed, with no insulation in the ceiling. It was a retrofit job along with changing his ducting system from the floor (which was rotted out) to the attic. They foamed the underside of the roof, and removed the standard attic insulation. I'm not sure what they did as far as venting is concerned, but it sounded like it is working well. He mentioned that the attic temperature was in the 80 degree range on a 100 degree day, versus it being 120 on 100 degree day. Interesting thought and I could see how it might be a feasible idea. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-07-2015 at 2:42pm
Andy, It sure sounds like he is air conditioning his attic now! Duct work can be insulated and preferred in a unconditioned space. Did his electric bill go up? ROI? Roof damage will not show up immediately after insulating the bottom of the roof deck. How long ago did he do it? BTW, I have insulated ducting in my attic and it's 0 degrees out now and dropping! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-07-2015 at 4:05pm
| Yeah, it seems odd to me, but intriguing. I'd like to find out more about how they do it and what the long term results are like. He only did it a couple years ago, so the long term aspects are unknown with him. From what the guy was explaining, it sounds like his energy bills dropped by about 30%. |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: January-07-2015 at 4:37pm
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I have to kiss petes butt here and agree with everything he said.......god that hurt. in New england the only time i have seen any foam under roof in attic is on very old homes id stick with good venting and insulate attic floor . by the way blown on the attic floor may be better r value than pink stuff but it sure makes any kind of future construction or any chance of using the attic for storage or maintenence a complete mess.. ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-10-2015 at 10:14am
| Has anyone had experience with soapstone counters tops? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-10-2015 at 10:17am
They are very porous,must be sealed and the sealer must be maintained. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-10-2015 at 10:24am
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A lot like granite, then? We've also been looking at the concrete counter tops and they do some great designs with those. Obviously, some of these items may be scaled back once we start talking price. For now, we're considering what all we want and once the design is reviewed and priced, we'll start chipping away at nice to have's in favor of need to have's...lol |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: January-10-2015 at 10:29am
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its nothing like granite its more like slate in that it is as Pete said very porous. you may have seen old farm house sinks that are a grey black stone that is soapstone.. i bet you will do a lot of chipping off the list when you find out all the expense of even a basic new construction. its unimagineable what things cost these days.. but always build with the basics if you have to but try and make the future upgrades easily doable later. ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-10-2015 at 10:34am
That's exactly one of the key things we are keeping in mind. For example, we'll spend money on building quality that helps for a better house and more efficient. Also, we're thinking cabinets is a key area to spend a little more and get exactly what we want. Countertops may be done in the budget realm now so they can be swapped out later. Both contractors we're working with are willing to let us do some work ourselves to help on cost. We're also planning to have my father-in-law build our cabinets for us (although, not sure that will end up saving any cost). |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-10-2015 at 10:35am
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Andy, I agree with Peter on the costs. Dreams sometimes don't fit into reality however,keep going and decide when the time comes. I've been there! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: January-10-2015 at 11:30am
| My experience is doing things by yourself or having family help out doesn't save any money but often you'll get more for your money. |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: January-10-2015 at 1:02pm
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When building on a budget I tell friends to think about putting your money into the things you very likely will not have the opportunity to change later. This is your big chance to foam in the walls, put radiant heat tubes in the concrete and such. Think about windows quality and size. You can upgrade the quality when they are shot in 20-30 years, but making them larger would cost a fortune in re-framing. An opening size upgrade now is only the window cost. Install and framing cost does not change much. Also your trim package, if you like heavier/taller base boards and casings invest now. Same for siding and exterior trim. Counter tops get swapped out frequently by many, but the cabinets are a much bigger deal. Tubs and showers are fairly permanent. A toilet/ sink /vanity is easy. Think through what you can upgrade latter and what you can't when ruling expenses in or out. ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: tullfooter
Date Posted: January-10-2015 at 1:40pm
Well Said. Could not agree more. My best friend is a builder, who builds incredible homes. He just started a 16,000sq' shack near here. He started out as a rough carpenter, and built his own house back around 1987. He still lives in that house. He kicks himself often for not doing the things then, that can't be changed after the fact. The biggest is dormer trusses over his garage. He said it might have cost him $1000 back then. I know many who regret not adding the extra course of block to add headroom to the lower level. ------------- Play hard, life's not a trial run. '85 BFN '90 BFN White Lake, Michigan |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-12-2015 at 1:46pm
Yep, that's the plan. |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: January-27-2015 at 7:47pm
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After some discussion with the architect and starting the initial planning, we think we are going to settle in on something around 30' deep and 35' wide. We'll probably do 10-11' ceilings and 8-9' doors. Some other thoughts that are floating around... cedar siding (natural look) with brick or rock on bottom third. actual reclaimed barn wood for baseboard and trim 8' tall solid wood (knotty alder, pine or similar) interior doors walk in shower design with no door |
Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: January-27-2015 at 8:02pm
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NICE! ------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: peter1234
Date Posted: January-27-2015 at 9:29pm
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i have done a few walk in showers it is a no brainer ... put the valve on the walk in side opposite the shower heads if i'm explaining it right it is easy to turn it on without climbing in.. hand helds and non rain heads get used far more than rain heads and body sprays . make sure you keep the curb as low as possible 4" max . but if building new try for sunken pan so you just walk in with no curb.. ------------- former skylark owner now a formula but I cant let this place go |
Posted By: Okie Boarder
Date Posted: February-01-2015 at 1:07pm
| Another thing being considered is to fully pre-wire the house for A/V, security or automation. Cat 6 and coax drops to every room and back to a central location. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-01-2015 at 3:55pm
Andy, Resawn or as is weathered? The as is weathered does not hold up. I did a wainscot in it and it ended up being replaced with bead board within 5 years. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |