Fine in idle, terrible when in gearSN2001
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3524
Printed Date: November-23-2024 at 12:34pm
Topic: Fine in idle, terrible when in gearSN2001
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Subject: Fine in idle, terrible when in gearSN2001
Date Posted: May-07-2006 at 1:46pm
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I bought a 1983 sn 2001 in Nov. of last year at MidOhio(Dublin). It was winterized at the time, but I was told it ran fine. Overall the boat and trailer were in good shape.
So, the problem is when I put it in gear it runs like its not getting power. In nuetral it revs great. It starts first turn. Great driveway boat. Problem is I want to use it on the water. Things I have done to try to fix it are: 1. new plugs twice 2. new fuel filter 3. new fuel pump 4. new carburetor Changed carb because I thought the problem was that the secondaries were not opening. Wrong. Changed the fuel pump because it was an easy fix and from some of the thousands of post I have read I thought it may not be getting enough fuel pressure. Wrong. So, my next guess would be that it could be a coil or distributor problem. It has the electronic ignition conversion and the breaker is bipassed. The thing that gets me is that it revs well when in nuetral. The shop is backed up and I can do the work myself, but I just am running out of ideas. Is it worth the $400 to change out the distributor? The springs and everything seem ok but I'm no expert. Please help! Don |
Replies:
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: May-07-2006 at 4:38pm
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Does it stutter or pop back through the carb when you give it the throttle or is it just low on power? Have you put a timing light on it and checked base timing and advance? What plugs did you install? Heat range? Does your distributor still have points? Are they set correctly? (gap, dwell) How fresh is your fuel in the tank? Reading your post above it sounds like you checked fuel pressure and delivery. Before replacing the distributor or coil you should replace your plug wires and distributor cap. How many hours does the motor have on it? If all of the above are good you may want to start checking the mechanical condition of your engine. Good luck! Write back if you need more help. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-07-2006 at 7:52pm
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670 hours
New fuel new fuel pump electronic ignition, no points autolite plugs from skidim Maybe a little stutter and pop back but more just a loss of power. It doesn't want to do much. I will replace wires and cap. I didn't replace them yet because they looked to be in good condition and motor revs fine in idle. I also pulled the anti-syphon valve and made sure it was good. When you say mechanical condition, what do you mean? Compression? It starts easy, runs well in nuetral. Boggs like a dog in gear. Thank you for your help. I will order parts from skidim as soon as I finish this post. Don |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-07-2006 at 7:54pm
| Didn't put a timing light on it yet. Not sure how, but I can order a advance timing light. Would the timing cause this issue? I mean, fine in nuetral terrible in gear? |
Posted By: 91nautique
Date Posted: May-07-2006 at 9:09pm
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Blocked fuel pickup in the tank? Or collapsed fuel line? Try blowing compressed air back thru the pickup to clear it Leads or coil issue? Try running the boat on the trailer in the dark to see if there is any crossfiring of leads or crossfiring in the coil Does it get full power when you hit the throttle in the water and gradually lose power?Or does it not respond at all? Is there any difference when it is hot or cold? When you say you changed plugs are you sure you got the leads back on the right sequence?There is a couple of cylinders you can cross the leads up on, and the motor may still run ok until you put it under load. |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: May-07-2006 at 9:16pm
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Your engine needs 3 things in order to run right. (1) The correct fuel/air mixture; (2) adequate spark from the ignition and at the right time; and (3) compression (mechanical soundness of the engine. It sounds like you have verified that your fuel system is good. Just to make sure, you can loosen the fuel line to the carb and check fuel delivery. Disable the ignition and crank the engine over while letting the fuel line feed into a jar or something. You should get about 1/2 pint or so in 15 seconds of cranking time. If you have that with a new carb you should be okay for fuel. Also check that your choke valve is opening fully after the engine is warm.
Next check for adequate spark. Remove your coil wire from the distributor. Let it rest so the you have a gap of at least 1/2 inch from the engine block. The spark plug gap is only .035" but that is when the spark is under compression. Compression tends to blow a week spark out. So you want to test your ignition to see how strong it is. Thus the 1/2" gap. With ignition system on, crank the engine over. You should get a consistent blue spark from the coil to ground (eng. block). You should also hear a snapping sound as the spark occurs. You can open that gap up and see how "strong" your spark is. HEI systems will shoot a gap across more than 6 inches in open air (no compression). Next is your timing. Get a good timing light (or borrow one) with a variable strobe delay (knob on the back with timing marks). Check your base timing and check timing advance. Retarded timing affects power big time. Overly advanced timing will cause your engine to try to force the pistons down in the opposite direction as they are coming up on the compression stroke (in effect trying to make the engine run backwards and fighting itself). If you need specs on timing, let me know. Now,....if all the above has been verified and is good,...it's time to brake out the compression gage. If you've never done a compression test, you'll want to get a little training on this. It's a little more than just screwing the hose/gage into the spark plug hole and cranking the engine over. Let me know if you get this far and need more help. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-08-2006 at 7:37am
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I will try the fuel pick up line. The line from the tank to the fuel/water separator filter is fine but I didn't check the line inside the tank.
The plug order has been checked and rechecked with the PCM manual. Seems ok. Cros firing, I'm not sure. Once in gear, poor power from the get go. It can barely get on plane. I haven't run it more than 20 min on the water, but it seems the same hot or cold. nuttyskier2002, Thanks, again. The choke is opening fine. I pulled a plug to check spark and it was very dim. This made me think I might have an electrical problem. I still need to check it at the coil. I will check the fuel delivery (it should be fine unless the pick up tube is collapsed or clogged. (per 91Nautique, good idea) I ordered an Equus/Innova 3555 Advance Timing Light iequus last night to check the timing, I will let you know what I find. Let's hope I don't need the compression gauge. I have heard so many good thing about the 351W I took everyone's word at MidOhio that it ran well. My bad. It's probably something small. Things on order from skidim: New plug wires New rotor and cap Alternator (for good measure, want to be able to run stereo) I will try to check the above things and post back. Don |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-08-2006 at 8:11am
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Recap.
1983 SN 2001 351W with about 670 hours Ran fine last year according to others Runs well in nuetral, put it in gear and she wants to die, but doesn't, more just limps up to about 20 mph slowly. Thought secondaries were not opening so replace with 4160 Holley marine from Carbcareusa. Thought might be fuel, fuel/water sep, fuel pump, so replaced All New. Replaced plugs Autolite for 351W from skidim anti-syphon valve clean, works well Checked fuel with ignition off, it pumped at least a half pint in 5 seconds. Check spark at coil (between coil and block), plenty of spark. So, I need to wait for the new cap, rotor, plug wires from skidim. Also timing light. Well, I'm off to work. I will check back tonight. |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: May-08-2006 at 9:02am
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Sounds like your down a few cylinders to run like that, the new cap and rotor aren't a bad idea, if you can borrow a timing light I would check the spark to each cylinder... good advice on here so far... be systematic, rule things out, and you'll be skiing in no time. You have bought more new parts than you need but its fun to have new parts on a new boat anyway... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: David F
Date Posted: May-08-2006 at 10:48am
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Advance the base timing significantly and give it a go. Take your timing light, 9/16" wrench and screw driver with you on the water and test it out. If the performance is there when you advanc the base timing, then look for faulty advance mechanism and/or leave the base timing advanced...but not to the point of hard starting and detonation.
This is assuming everything else checks out as listed/mentioned previously. ------------- |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-08-2006 at 2:16pm
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Thanks for the comments. I have the timing light on order. I did notice that when I pulled the first plug on observer side it seemed to spark much better than the fourth on the same side. Also some of the plugs look dark after running it. It would make sense that some of the cylinders are getting weak spark.
I will keep ya posted, and hope to ride behind this thing someday 
Don |
Posted By: David F
Date Posted: May-08-2006 at 2:28pm
Absolutely, YES! ------------- |
eyedsn2001 wrote:Posted By: Nautique2001
Date Posted: May-09-2006 at 11:20am
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Hi Don,
Let me ask a few things, because I experienced the same problem last year. Can you get a couple of minutes of OK acceleration after initial start up? When the problem occurs, does it buck like a son of a gun until you get up to higher speed? Does it want to stall at low RPM's? You can rev the engine fine out of gear, but as soon as it's in gear it wants to stall? Does your dipstick pop out of place after running high speed? Ken ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1052&sort=&pagenum=4&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: Nautique2001
Date Posted: May-09-2006 at 11:23am
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By the way, I bought my Nautique 2001 at Ron's Marine / Mid Ohio. Mine ran fine for the test drive, but then I experienced the same problem as you when I got it home. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1052&sort=&pagenum=4&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-10-2006 at 8:33am
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Nautque2001,
Acceleration is always poor. Maybe wants to stall, does a little in gear. Fine in idle. In gear you have to give it slow throttle so it doesn't stall. MidOhio was selling the boat for a customer, so I definitely don't blame them at all. I should get my parts from skidim today 
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Posted By: Nautique2001
Date Posted: May-10-2006 at 10:48am
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OK, it must be something simple. I'm sure you'll get it resolved. Keep us posted and good luck!
Ron's Marine was great to me, and I don't blame them either. It was frustrating driving from Boston to Streetsboro, OH and back to find out I had engine problems @567 hours. Ken ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1052&sort=&pagenum=4&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: NautiSki
Date Posted: May-11-2006 at 6:16pm
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I had a similar experience that showed up 1 hour after a carb rebuild. Ran flawlessly up to that point, but upon inspection I found a grasshopper lodged in the check valve. Actually had his legs wrapped around the little ball clogging the line and reducing fuel pressure. Forced me to replace the fuel lines and filter, so it's probably a good thing after all. ------------- NautiSki 1980 Ski Nautique Troy White 817-266-0711 Grapevine, Texas |
Posted By: bwill14
Date Posted: May-12-2006 at 10:39am
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I am not a mechanic in any way, shape, or form, but any chance it could be the transmission? If it is not performing well, could it create what you are describing. ------------- Brent |
Posted By: Nautique2001
Date Posted: May-12-2006 at 3:45pm
Got to watch out for those grasshoppers. They can ruin your weekend!  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1052&sort=&pagenum=4&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-14-2006 at 12:34pm
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UPDATE:
I received my new prestolite cap, rotor, and pcm plug wires. I checked each spark plug gap to be correct. I checked and rechecked plug order with plug wires to distributor. I replaced rotor cap and wires. Started in the driveway on fake-a-lake and ran so-so in idle. It would rev, but I did seem to notice a hesitation, and motor shake. So, this may have been there all the time. Almost seems like all cylinders are not firing. Put it in to gear in driveway and it reved just as it did in nuetral. Took it down to the dock. On the water, under load, it stalled as soon as I put it into gear. I got it restarted. It reved decent in nuetral. Put it into gear and it ran like it wasn't firing all cylinders. So, here I am. New plugs New plug wires New cap New rotor New carb (carbcareusa) New fuel/water separater New fuel pump. New anti-syphon valve. Good spark at coil. Plenty of fuel delivery when cranking (ignition disabled to test fuel delivery) Choke opens when warm fine I ordered a timing light a week ago. I should receive it Monday or Tuesday. I am running out of ideas. I hope it is only a timing issue. I just don't understand how it could be fine timing one year and horrible the next? It's a timing chain so it should stay. The makes me feel that the Distributor itself is not advancing. It's like, not all of the plugs are getting sufficient spark. I will post what I find when I check the timing. I will set to 6 degrees before top dead center and 600 rpm. Then what? Try to manually advance it on the water and see if it runs better? If so, order a new distributor? I can't wait to use the little time off work I have enjoying this boat instead of tinkering on it. Don |
Posted By: stang72
Date Posted: May-14-2006 at 1:13pm
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You can get pretty close with timing by doing the "by ear" method. On the water while it's in nuetral....Simply advance timming to the point where it starts to ping a little...at that point retard it a bit untill ping disappears.. reset your idle...you can fine tune it later using a light...if it is a timing issue you should see a big diff. If the timing is too retarded, engine will stutter and sometimes cough back through the carb. ------------- stang Face plants are not that funny when it's you face! http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/images/3720/photo1.jpg" rel="nofollow - The Super Air |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-14-2006 at 3:10pm
| stang72, do I turn the distributor clockwise to advance? |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: May-14-2006 at 5:08pm
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eyedsn2001,
Just for the heck of it please post the firing order you are using so we can verify it is correct. Sounds like you're down a couple cylinders and that's what I suspect. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-14-2006 at 5:30pm
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If I look at the top of the distributor, standing above the ski pylon, Number 1 cylinder would be at about 1 o'clock ( with 12 o'clock being closer to the carb) From there going clockwise would be 1 3 7 2 6 5 4 8
The tag on the motor says firing order should be 1 8 4 5 6 2 7 3. Am I missing something here? It seems correct just in the reverse order. If I take them couterclockwise it would be 1 8 4 5 6 2 7 3, which is what the tag reads, Should this be the other direction??? |
Posted By: 91nautique
Date Posted: May-14-2006 at 5:59pm
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eyedsn2001
If you were to crank the motor with the coil feed wire disconected does it crank over evenly and smooth? Or does it seem to have a "missing" sound--Indicating loss of compresion in one or more cylinders(piston ring or valve problem) It sounds to me to be retarded timing or crossed over leads 1 confirm your firing order 2 pull no 1 plug lead off the dizzy cap 3 right down firing order and have a freind sit on the other side of the motor and between the two of you slowly go thru the sequence,marking each done wire with a whiteboard marker,until you get back to the empty no 1 position run thru it again to be sure When you changed the dizzy to electronic did you bypass the ballast resistor? |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-14-2006 at 6:06pm
| Yes the resistor is bypassed. Firing order is as in above post. Not sure about timing, still waiting for timing light. I've gone over the wires about 50 times. |
Posted By: stang72
Date Posted: May-14-2006 at 6:08pm
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Yes...clockwise to advance...the engine will rev higher as you turn. ------------- stang Face plants are not that funny when it's you face! http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/images/3720/photo1.jpg" rel="nofollow - The Super Air |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: May-14-2006 at 8:28pm
Did you pull the distributor when you upgraded to electronic? The firing order 1-8-4-5-6-2-7-3 is correct in the counterclockwise direction when viewing it as you described. From memory when I did my conversion I think the #1 should be around 2 O:clock not 1, if you pulled the distributor maybe it went back in one tooth off. If you're a tooth off you wouldn't even be able to see the timing marks when you throw a light on it. I would pull #1 plug and get the motor to TDC and check to see if the position of the rotor is where you think # 1 is. I just went through this last week, I installed the conversion kit and when starting my engine for the first time I had it 180 out. Took me about an hour of head scratching and my neighbors help but we got it figured out. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-14-2006 at 8:37pm
| I didn't do the electronic conversion. It was done previous. I can only assume that it ran fine as it is. Number on is at about 1 o'clock. Can I just move each wire clockwise to get it to about 2 o'clock? Would that change anything? I wouldn't think so, but I'm posting because I'm lost anyhow. |
Posted By: Nautique2001
Date Posted: May-14-2006 at 8:46pm
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I hate to mention this to you, Don, but you have the exact same issues that I had last year. I replaced all the fuel and electrical parts. My timing advance was fine, my timing was perfect. I engine would start fine, idle fine, rev. fine, but as soon as I put it in gear and accelerate it would buck and lose power. My end result was that two of my cylinders were worn and two more were on their way out. I had so much loss of compression that I was only firing well on four good cylinders. The gas was slipping by the rings and mixing with the oil. My dipstick would blow out due to the "blow by". I replaced my engine with a remanufactured engine and that solved everything. Get yourself a compression or leak down test!!
Good Luck, Ken ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1052&sort=&pagenum=4&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-15-2006 at 7:31am
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Wow! That would really suck. It only has about 660 hrs.
I hope you are wrong, but I appreciate the advice. How do I check the compression? The boat shop is back logged, can I take it to a regular shop? nuttyskier2002? |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: May-15-2006 at 7:49am
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eyedsn2001,
Don't take this the wrong way but if you're not sure what you're doing at this point I think it's time to take to a pro and get the thing sorted out. You've already spent a bunch of money and it's no closer to running right. The marine dealer is backed up and that will only get worse so get it on his schedule now and then you can enjoy the summer without worrying whether the boats gonna run everytime you take it out. ------------- You can’t change the wind but you can adjust your sails |
Posted By: jameski
Date Posted: May-15-2006 at 8:11am
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Set the timing first. I think your problem will disappear. ------------- current boat http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1977 - 94 Sport Nautique previous boat http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=601 - 78 Martinique |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-15-2006 at 8:12am
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I'll get on the schedule today. Problem is, speding more money to find out motor needs rebuilt/replaced, when I should be able to figure that out for myself.
Where's a good place to order a rebuilt/new 351 marine? That way I can see what I'm in for. |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: May-15-2006 at 8:38am
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You don't necessarily need to take your boat to a "marine" shop or dealership to get the mechanical condition checked. And general engine repair shop/garage can do a compression check for you. Look in your local phonebook and make some calls and find a shop who does general engine repair. They may be able to give you some instruction so you can do the check yourself. Do you have access to a compression gage?
Where are you located? You can shop the internet or order a marine replacement engine from Discount Inboard Marine. Shop around before you buy. Also take into account that shipping on a complete engine is going to be pricey. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: Nautique2001
Date Posted: May-15-2006 at 8:55am
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Agree, a good automotive shop that can simply fill a bucket of water for the raw water pick up would work, or fake a lake. I would find an automotive place that might be able to set you up with a re-build if necessary. The compression test is your best option right now. I'd stop spending money or replacing more parts. Keep us posted.
Ken ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1052&sort=&pagenum=4&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: stang72
Date Posted: May-15-2006 at 9:48am
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Before worry sets in regarding rebuild cost...be sure all the simple stuff is checked...comp , timing , fuel system...ign. etc.If it was running well when put away...I can't imagine that all of a sudden the cylinder walls are worn to the point you can't go(unless there were probems before)! There are several things that can cause proplems like you describe.And because you still scratching your head(I know how that goes)...getting a mechanic to look it over may get you your answer.
BTW...if you are running the engine in the drive and put it in gear , be sure to spray some wd40 on the shaft bearing...don't spin it dry or it will heat up. ------------- stang Face plants are not that funny when it's you face! http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/images/3720/photo1.jpg" rel="nofollow - The Super Air |
Posted By: David F
Date Posted: May-15-2006 at 11:49am
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Compression test are simple to perform and cheap. Go buy a compression gauge at your nearby autoparts store. Remove the spark plug and screw in the gauge. Crank the engine over until you get the highest reading. Write it down and go to the next cylinder. Remember, the reading is not really the important thing. The important thing is that all the readings are within 10% of each other. If one or more are way down, you then know you have a problem.
I suppose you could have stuck rings that occurred during the storage period. If you get a couple of low readings, pour about 1cc of Marvel Mystery oil in the cylinder and let it sit over night. Long shot here, but it could happen, I suppose. ------------- |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-16-2006 at 8:23pm
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UPDATE:
So, I got the timing light. I started it in the drive advanced the timing by ear as was mentioned here. It began to idle higher but much smoother. I checked to see if it would start in this position and no problem. Now in idle it is very smooth, no more shake. Now the problem, when I would try to tighten the nut again it would bogg and almost stall. It is as if the angle of the distributor in the same position causes a timing problem. If I leave the nut loose it runs much better. Is this a bad distributor? If I get enough yes responses I will order it right away. The people at the distributor said they rotate the same for the revers rotation motor and lh both counter clockwise, is this true? I'm getting a little excited, I hope this is the answer! Don |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: May-17-2006 at 12:23am
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Are you saying that when you tighten the distributor hold down clamp (bolt) the engine starts to bog? If so, check your timing after you tighten the clamp to see if it changes. It's normal for it to change some and you may have to compensate for this before you tighten the bolt. If this is all that you're talking about it's simple to fix. However, the way you are discribing this makes me think that something is binding when you tighten the bolt down. Could this be your problem? ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-17-2006 at 7:50am
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nuttyskier2002, exactly, it seems like something is binding when I tighten the clamp bolt. The distributor was carefully held in position. When I tighten the bolt clamp the distributor shaft angles slightly and the motor boggs, loosen the bolt and it runs smooth. Would this have something to do with the magnets? Obviously I can't use it loose, but no matter what position I try to tighten the clamp the motor start to shake, like its missing, and bogg.
I think I will call skidim today. Don |
Posted By: David F
Date Posted: May-17-2006 at 9:34am
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I think you are starting to pinpoint the cause of your issues. Let me say that just before I sold my '77 Martinique, I want to replace the automotive distributor with a marine unit for liability reasons (did not want new owner to sue me). So I purchased a NOS point type Prestolite distributor and dropped it into my 351W. Never has the old girl run so good. Poor idle quality disappeared (but, I also replaced a worn out carburetor at the same time). The engine started effortlessly and ran beutifully.
So, it is very possible that your current distributor is simply worn out. The bearings/bushing could be shot. I suppose when tightening down the clamp bolt, you are causing the shaft to shift in the bearing and it starts to wobble. this wobbling could cause erractic behavior of the triggering device in the electronic module. I suppose your distributor could be cracked. Might explain the issues when tightening the clamp. So, look on Ebay and buy one of those NOS Prestolite point type distributors. Remove your electronic module and install it in the new distributor and go from there. I would bet it will solve your problem. ------------- |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-17-2006 at 10:00am
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David F. thanks for your help. I just spoke with Rich at skidim, they are great. He seemed to think the gap in the electronic conversion kit could be off, closer on some points and further on others. Loosening the distributor bolt probably allowed some play and the bogging when I tightened it down could be forcing the gap to be closer again for some and further for others. I will pich up a feeler gauge tonight and check the distance of the "black box" it should be 8 thousandths.
What do you think? How difficult a job if I need to replace? Ebay for what about $70? |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-17-2006 at 10:17am
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all of that is inside of the dist. and the only way tightening the bolt to the housing could effect that is if the base housing of the dist is cracked. I would say something in the clamp block is off, like it's the wrong style/application or the dist is not seated correctly.
------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: David F
Date Posted: May-17-2006 at 10:24am
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I remember getting my NOS distributor for about $59.00 shipped. FWIW, I concur with 79... Tightening down the distributor should have no effect on the internals unless it is simply worn out, broken or not installed/seated correctly. ------------- |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-17-2006 at 8:53pm
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I ordered a NOS rh distributor. It should be here on Friday. Can anyone direct me to a descent step-by-step on the change out of the distributor? The electronic conversion should just set right in the same as the old, I just need to run the wires.
What I think I know: Pull the old distributor out, mark number one, put new in one tooth back. If this doesn't work, I need cylinder 1 at top dead center and the rotor at the number one plug. Get it to start and set the timing to 6 degrees before top dead center at 600 rpm. Obviously it will be my first so be gentle! Thanks in advance |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-17-2006 at 9:43pm
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I just did this, and its not that hard.
Before you pull the old distributor out, mark where rotor is relative to the motor (mark A). Also note the position of cylinder #1 on the distributor relative to the motor. This will give you a starting point to adjust the timing from when you put the new distributor in. It will also clue you in as to where to where your spark plug wires go. When you pull the old dist out (straight up), the rotor will turn. When it is all the way up, mark the rotor's position again, relative to the motor (mark B). When you put the new dist in, align the rotor to start at mark B, and make sure it ends up at mark A when it is fully seated. If it doesnt, repeat until it does. If the distributor wont sit back down all the way, put a socket on the crank and move it slightly so the gears line up. It should drop right in. If you move the crank too far, remember it will change the position of your rotor off of mark A. Turn your distributor so that your #1 cylinder is approximately where it was on the old dist. Not sure what the base timing should be on your motor. Mine is set at 14 degrees BTDC at 600 RPM and doesnt ping at full advance with 89 octane fuel, but YMMV. ------------- |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: May-18-2006 at 5:10am
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When you get your new distributor, compare the shaft and gear of the new one to the old one. Measure how far the end of the gear is from the base of the housing on both units (as as possible). Also grasp the gear and try to move it latterly on the old distributor and see if you can sense any play in the bushings. Let us know what you find. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-19-2006 at 7:33pm
All right guys, I made all my marks, pulled the old distributor. When I tried to in stall the new one the was a pin off center in the area where the distributor shaft was to seat. Well I tried to center it with a flat screw driver and it dropped straight into what I beleive was the oil pan. How screwed am I? I don't know what it was, how important it is, or how in the hell I am going to get it back into place. What am I to do now?
Thanks, Don |
Posted By: stang72
Date Posted: May-19-2006 at 10:33pm
What dropped...the srew driver or the pin
Thats a new one for me...I wonder if you can fish it out with one of those skinny extention magnet things you see at auto stores...if there is room enough????? Someone else...chime in. ------------- stang Face plants are not that funny when it's you face! http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/images/3720/photo1.jpg" rel="nofollow - The Super Air |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: May-20-2006 at 4:57am
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The only pin I can think of that you must be talking about is the one that holds the gear onto the distributor shaft. Is this right? Did it fall into the distributor mounting hole? It shouldn't have been anywhere loose enough to just fall out. Was this the new distributor? Or was it the screwdriver that fell? Had to be a very small one. Let us know! ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-20-2006 at 7:05am
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Wasn't part of the distributor. If you look down the hole where the distributor shaft seats, there was about a 4mm pin that looked as though it would fit into the center of the distributor shaft. That is what dropped loose, not the screwdriver or part of the distributor.
I might be able to fish it out with one of those magnets but I doubt it. I may have to take he oil pan out to do it. Anyone know what it could be that dropped? It wasn,t part of the new distributor, it was there after I pulled the old one. |
Posted By: pswann
Date Posted: May-20-2006 at 9:06am
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Is the pin in this picture what dropped?
http://home.austin.rr.com/bigtoe/pin.pdf - pin.pdf That pin that holds the gear on the old unit? May have something to do with the slop. This is the only pin in the area I can think of. |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-20-2006 at 11:01am
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I'm betting it's the shaft to the oil pump and you need to pull the pan. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-20-2006 at 6:22pm
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79nautique, That is what I am guessing. It wasn't part of the distributor. So, I need to pull the pan? Do I need to pull the motor to get the pan off? And after I get the pin out of the pan, where does it go?
Thanks for all the help. What does the pin do and why in the hell would it fall thru to the pan so easily? I am going to forget what a wakeboard is if I don't get this thing straight. Don |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-21-2006 at 3:55pm
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OK
I pulled the oil pan, reset the oil pump shaft, seated the distributor properly with the pump shaft. The nos rh prestolite I ordered was the screw-down cap type, my old was the clip kind. So I couldn't use the old electronic ignition. I am going to order the new ignition from skidim. I was going to just use the points this season but I can't seem to get any spark from the coil after moving the red wire to the opposite side of the resistor (opposite of what it should be with electronic ignition). I guess the reset or breaker could be bad. Instead of fixing that, I am going to get the new electronic ignition for this distributor. Question: In all of my efforts to reset the oil shaft pin, I have lost the position of the original distributor. I put the big wrench on the crank and rotated it to 0 degrees, noted the position of the rotor, then assumed that would be number one cylinder. Is that correct or do I need to do something else for top dead center at number one cylinder? All I need to do now is hook up the new electronic ignition on Wednesday (shipping time) and figure out how to get distributor and number one cylinder at a good starting point to them set the timing. I hope this answers the question of why it was running so bad. I think it will. |
Posted By: Nautique2001
Date Posted: May-21-2006 at 3:59pm
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Any progress, Don? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1052&sort=&pagenum=4&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-21-2006 at 7:41pm
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Just waiting for the electronic ignition. Also on some info on top dead center for number one cylinder.
Don |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: May-22-2006 at 7:01am
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Okay, here goes ----- to get your engine at #1 cyl firing position, not only do you have to have the timing mark on the harmonic balancer at 0 deg, but you also have to have both valves closed on that cyl so it's ready to fire. If you don't know if both valves are closed, pull the #1 plug, disable the ignition and hold your finger over the plug hole while someone else bumps the engine over with the starter. Just bumps,...no continuous cranking. When you feel your finger being blown out of the hole,...stop. Then hand crank the engine to 0 deg. This is #1 TDC firing position. Now fit the cap on the distributor and note which position the #1 wire is on the cap. Mark where that position is on the distributor housing then remove the cap. Stab the distributor while rotating the shaft so that the rotor lines up with your mark. The distributor may not go all the way down due to miss-alignment with the oil pump shaft. If this is the case the engine will need to be bumped over to align this shaft. Now bump the engine over to #1 firing position again and check your mark (rotor to mark on distributor). Now turn the distributor clock-wise about 10 deg, install everything and you're pretty much ready. Any questions,...write back. ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-22-2006 at 7:23am
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nuttyskier2002, I have the distributor perfectly seated into the oil pump shaft already. From what you are saying, I need to pull the distributor up and out again? Then get the compression stroke by bumping the motor, then hand rotate the harmonic balancer position to 0 degrees. Try to seat the distibutor with the rotor position noted, this will be where the number one plug starts. Then run the rest of my plug wires per my firing order. Rotate the distributor about 10 degrees clockwise, Start the motor and set the timing to 6 btdc at 650 rpm.
Thanks again for all the help. |
Posted By: nuttyskier2002
Date Posted: May-22-2006 at 9:49am
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Sounds like you got it! When you bump the motor over to get to #1 firing position (compression), try not to go past 0 deg as the crank rotates. Then, by hand rotate the crank in the same direction 'til you get to 0. Then do exactly as you stated above. You'll get it! Write back if you have problems. Good luck! ------------- 95 Malibu Echelon w/Mercruiser 350 Magnum Skier Former boats: 88 Ski Centurion Tru Trac II 59 Chris Craft Capri (woody) |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-22-2006 at 10:54am
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Man that's kinda long winded. All you realy have to do is get the #1 cylinder on TDC of the compression stroke, look at what tower the rotor is point to in the cap and that's your #1 plug wire location, know go CCW with the firing order. Every one makes it sound like there is a specific tower on the cap that has to be the #1 tower when in fact any tower works, it's all relative to where the rotor is when installed and that's your starting point. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-22-2006 at 8:02pm
| Thanks 79nautique that is the way I was hoping I could do it. I will let you guys know how it goes after I get the electronic ignition from skidim. |
Posted By: pswann
Date Posted: May-22-2006 at 8:22pm
| Looks like I bought the same nos as you did off ebay. Which one did you go with from skidim and why? I was going to talk to them about this when I figured out I messed up but they were closed. Thanks. |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-23-2006 at 7:37am
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pswann
I bought the 87&up because of the gasket for the wiring. 86 and prior has a round opening and the screw down 87 & up cap has a rectangular slid in gasket. |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-24-2006 at 10:46pm
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OK here's the dilly. Seems to run super smooth now. I haven't put it on the water yet but it is completely different now.
The problem, I'm not a 100% sure yet. It definitely had something to do with the distributor. I put the new prestolite distributor on with new prestolite electronic conversion on it. Hand-cranked number one to tdc, set firing order, started right up, set timing to 6 btdc @ 650 rpm and it ran super super smooth. So, the original problem? Not sure, but it has to be one of three things: 1. Bad distributor 2. Bad electronic conversion module 3. The oil pump shaft was not seated into the bottom of the original distributor properly, hence why it bogged when I tightened the distributor set bolt. Number 3 is what I am leaning towards, because the shaft is what fell out when I tried to replace the new one and when I loosened the bolt on the old distributor it ran better. I am not sure but just wanted to let others know what I went thru. 1st new carb 2nd new fuel/water separator 3rd clean anti-syphon valve 4th new fuel pump 5th new plugs/wires/rotor/cap 6th new distributor with electronic conversion set timing and all is good..... I hope. I will take it out on the water in the next day or two and post back. Feel free to ask any questions and I will answer to the best of my knowledge. Thanks to all who have helped me get this thing going, I just can't wait to get on the H20. Don |
Posted By: stang72
Date Posted: May-24-2006 at 11:54pm
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Don,
Sounds like maybe you got it this time...good luck on the water! Let us know how the run goes! ------------- stang Face plants are not that funny when it's you face! http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/images/3720/photo1.jpg" rel="nofollow - The Super Air |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-25-2006 at 8:34am
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well all and all you wheren't that far off you need to change your order a little and it would have saved you some cash.
When faced with engine problems you have to start with the easy stuff first and eleminate them one at a time before you start changing parts out. number 5 & 2 should have been compined and done first. I always do a tune-up at the start of the season, I inspect the cap,rotor ans wires and don't always replace them, especially the wires. But plugs, filters, timing and re-adjust the idle mixture screw and idle are a must. Then you would have wanted to do #3, and used a pressure gauge to test the fuel pump and the last would have been a re-build on the carb instead of replacing it. You get extremely lucky if you can just bolt on a carb and not have to adjust it. To dial in the carb you need a vaccum gauge for the holley's so that you have maximum possible vaccum at idle leaning towards the rich side of the setting or screwed out not in. On the q-jet's or edelbrocks there a lot easier and can be done by ear given some instructions on what to do. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-25-2006 at 10:50am
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79nautique, I agree. My knowledge has grown tremendously thru this process. This was my first venture into this kind of motor work.
On the carb, I was lucky enough to catch my neighbor outside last night. He seems to be real good with motors ( he has 6 cars corvette, lincoln, 2 rx7s, bmw, another I haven't seen all of them, even the rx7s have LS1 gm motors swapped into them by him). He just moved in to the neighborhood, so I haven't bugged him up until last night. Anyway, he adjusted the carb mixtures and really seemed to dial it in. Then he said we should yank it and drop in an LS1 motor from his garage, he has two extras! I should get the boat on the water by Friday, I'll post how it goes. I can always do the motor swap
Don |
Posted By: Nautique2001
Date Posted: May-25-2006 at 11:00am
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Don,
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you. Sounds like you did a fantastic job. I hate to hear when people have issues with their boats. I've been following your thread since day one. I'll be looking for your response after Friday. Nice work. If and when I need help, I'll call on you guys instead of paying labor charges. Good luck, Don and enjoy yourself this weekend.
Ken ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1052&sort=&pagenum=4&yrstart=1986&yrend=1990" rel="nofollow - Nautique 2001 |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-25-2006 at 2:16pm
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don, the LS1 would be pretty sweet, but there are a couple of draw backs, one the rotation isn't right for what you need but you could upgrade to the gear reduction tranny and make it work. The second is and I'm not up to date on the LS1 but if it is a steel block with aluminum heads then you really don't want to use it. Boat engine's run much cooler than car engines and with the aluminum head and steel block the expansion rates are different and one expands more than the other and causes sealing problems from what I've seen. Now if it's all aluminum then ship it on over and I'll work out all the bugs and figure out what prop to use. So when you drop that other one into yours you don't have to go through the same learning curve and trial and error that I have too.
To have the weight savings and power that an all AL LS1 has would make a rocket in an older nautique, now If I could get Bill to clue me in on tweeking the underside of the hull we could get that bad boy over 60mph easy. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-25-2006 at 2:27pm
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79nautique, I think they are steel block and aluminum heads, and yeah already knew the rotation was opposite. I'll be happy with this 351W as long as she can keep pullin'
Don |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-26-2006 at 9:58pm
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Well, me and a buddy took it out tonight for a test run that turned into a couple sets. I runs awesome. The only problem I am having is after its warm, it doesn't want to start. I have to mess with the throttle. I think this is a carb thing. Cold it starts easy. Warm, not so easy. The choke is open when warm, just not sure about the gas.
Anyway, the thing runs smooth and pulls strong with the Acme 542 prop I have on it. Any ideas about my warm rough starts would be appreciated. Don |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-26-2006 at 10:26pm
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richen up the choke setting and double check the timing, you cold have a coil or modual breaking down when hot. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: stang72
Date Posted: May-26-2006 at 10:48pm
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If getting it a bit richer does not do it...I would try advaning the timming a tad and see if that does it...worked for me when I had trouble with warm starts.
------------- stang Face plants are not that funny when it's you face! http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/images/3720/photo1.jpg" rel="nofollow - The Super Air |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-27-2006 at 7:22am
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Yes, I concur, likely a richer idle and well set timing is needed.
If the air screws are too lean or the static timing is too retaded, those symtoms will persist. An engine set 6-8 degrees can be symtomatic where 10 sees marked improvement. Set the air screws with your buddy in gear, making the engine run strong and smooth at idle. The results will be markedly little drop in rpm when you put it in and out of gear, minimize the flat spot off idle, and make most restarts a hands-off afair. You will be able to feel the engine's smoothness and pull by gauging rpms, speed and smothness right through your feet, its very effective. This results in the perfect idle mix when under load, a strong condition that is a touch richer than most set-at-idle-in-nuetral methods. Check for fuel expansion, drippy venturi or accel pump squiring fuel a few minutes after shutting down. If this is occuring,a dress the excess heat or bad needle/seats because the above adjustments wont overcome the overly rich condition on the next startup from the raw fuel. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-27-2006 at 9:10am
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Great, thanks. The timing is set to 6btd, so I will advance it a little. Will also try to get my neighbor to tweak the carb a little.
Don |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-28-2006 at 4:22pm
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Put the old carb back on last night. Advanced the timing to about 9 btdc. Ran about 6 hours straight today and no problems. The plugs were a little fouled from the other carb running so rich.
Is it fairly normal to get a little puff of smoke from exhaust when taking off pulling a boarder? It didn't seem to run poorly, had plenty of power. Just wondering if there is anything else I should be looking for. I also get quite a bit of H2O in the bilge, I suspect from the shaft. Thanks again, D |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: May-28-2006 at 10:39pm
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What color smoke? white's water vapor and would be most common and nothing to get excited unless it constant. A little after stopping for a few minutesis normal. Adjust the shaft and ridder stuffing box's and it should reduce the amount of water but you will always get some water in the bilge unless you go to a dripless shaft log and the dripples packing flax for the rudder. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: eyedsn2001
Date Posted: May-29-2006 at 9:07am
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White, and for about 1-2 seconds. Yeah, I read a post about the shaft and stuffing box.
These boats are suprisingly roomy. We were out with 6 people wakeboarding and all of our gear and had plenty of room. D |