Impeller lubricant?
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: Common Questions
Forum Discription: Visit here first for common questions regarding your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35374
Printed Date: November-24-2024 at 2:59pm
Topic: Impeller lubricant?
Posted By: GMacLaren
Subject: Impeller lubricant?
Date Posted: February-06-2015 at 9:00pm
I'm installing new impellers in Sherwood sea water pumps of both my CC boats. In the past, I've used vaseline as a lubricant. A "how to" MerCruiser video recommends wheel bearing grease and, I've seen dish washer detergent recommended. Anyone have a better idea? Thanks, -=Grant=-
------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier
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Replies:
Posted By: dwouncmd
Date Posted: February-06-2015 at 9:11pm
I think the lubircant just gets the impeller in. After that, the water washes the petroleum away and becomes the lubricant. Use whatever works/is available that won't break the rubber down.
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: February-06-2015 at 10:03pm
I have used water when I had to replace one while I was out and have also used a little Dawn when I have done them at home.
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-06-2015 at 10:21pm
I have never used anything! Wayne is correct.
dwouncmd wrote:
I think the lubircant just gets the impeller in. After that, the water washes the petroleum away and becomes the lubricant. |
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Posted By: Tim D
Date Posted: February-07-2015 at 5:20pm
Pete, how do remember that, you haven't changed one in 14 years.
------------- Tim D
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-07-2015 at 6:08pm
Tim D wrote:
Pete, how do remember that, you haven't changed one in 14 years. | Impellers: One when I bought the X55 then again 3 years ago (14 years). One 2 years ago on the Tique. One when I bought the Atom and then again about 5 years ago. 3 friends boats within 2 years. Several through the years at boat shows when people encountered problems. Too many to keep track of when I worked at Watercraft Sales. When you have changed a few, you have the tendency to remember the procedure.
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Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: February-07-2015 at 6:29pm
Spit on it
------------- Jesus was a bare-footer.............
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Posted By: dwouncmd
Date Posted: February-07-2015 at 10:35pm
baitkiller wrote:
Spit on it
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Spit shouldn't break the rubber down...
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Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: February-08-2015 at 11:41am
I received this note in my inbox, but don't find it here: Forum: Common Questions Topic: Impeller lubricant? Posted By: Donald80SN
I also do not use anything, but be careful using Sherwood impellers. About five years ago, one of out CCFANers installed a new Sherwood impeller at the St. John's River Run and his boat ran hot all weekend. It was not until Art C. pulled out a OEM impeller did his overheating issues go away. The impellers did not look any different to the naked eye, but they were indeed different size (Tolerance) and it was enough to have this guy chase his tail for many hours instead of enjoying the river with the other folks. I only use PCM impellers in my PCM engine. JMO, Donald ***************************** Anyway, I find this of great interest because 1) both my CC boats were purchased used, yet both have Sherwood pumps -- and I assumed they were original equipment. Do you suspect they are not? and, 2) we intend to take the newly acquired '77 on the St. John's Cruise and I was replacing the impeller in an attempt to avoid the problems Donald described above.
------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier
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Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: February-08-2015 at 11:45am
PS -- the new impellers I have are in packages labeled "Sherwood." They are marked "09959K" (where K=kit)
------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier
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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: February-08-2015 at 11:50am
Donald was wrong in his post referenced above. I believe Marty had an issue with a non-original impeller made/branded by Sierra. Sherwood is the factory pump and impeller manufacturer. PCM rebrands the Sherwood and is also a safe bet.
I have never used lubricant when installing an impeller and always get long life out of them. Spit or a little bit of water might make install a little easier but dry is fine too.
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: February-08-2015 at 12:22pm
Tim is right,Marty was using the ones he got thru Carquest. The Sherwoods ones have a little raised edge on both ends of the impeller,Marty's did not and therefore must have been too narrow and would not create a suction.
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-08-2015 at 12:29pm
Correct on the Sierra.
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Posted By: Donald80SN
Date Posted: February-08-2015 at 12:30pm
I typed that response last night and as soon as I posted it I released that he was speaking about SHERWOOD and not Sierra I deleted the post. I self corrected my mistake, I thought.
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: February-08-2015 at 12:32pm
I have been waiting on Quinners recommendation on this question
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Posted By: Donald80SN
Date Posted: February-08-2015 at 12:35pm
Gary S wrote:
I have been waiting on Quinners recommendation on this question |
Quinner rolls them in flour and looks for the wet spot.
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Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: February-08-2015 at 1:17pm
I once tried a Sierra impeller, it didn't even make an entire season. They are much softer and have sort of a grainy feel. Sierra point sets are also junk.
I always use either vaseline or binding slime (dish soap) for installing impellers. Wheel bearing grease could clog-up your trans cooler.
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Posted By: OverMyHead
Date Posted: February-08-2015 at 1:18pm
dwouncmd wrote:
Use whatever works/is available that won't break the rubber down. |
I am guessing Quinners go to would be K-Y.
------------- For thousands of years men have felt the irresistible urge to go to sea, and many of them died. Things got better after they invented boats. 1987 Ski Nautique
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Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: February-08-2015 at 1:22pm
I've installed the last 2 of mine dry as well. Didn't see any need for lube as they went in very easily. Maybe my pump is a whore and not as tight as lower hour pumps.
------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique
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Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: February-08-2015 at 1:25pm
Truthfull ky would be a good lubricant, so would binding slime. While no lubricant is really needed sometimes people get excited and dry start thier boats on the trailer and a little lube doesn't hurt. On the less self inflicted side if you have a slight air leak or blockage and the system doesn't prime right away having lubed the impeller will keep you from smoking it before you figure out the source of your troubles. Anything that doesnt soften the rubber certainly wont due more harm than good.
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Posted By: Smithfamily
Date Posted: February-08-2015 at 5:26pm
JoeinNY wrote:
Truthfull ky would be a good lubricant, so would binding slime. While no lubricant is really needed sometimes people get excited and dry start thier boats on the trailer and a little lube doesn't hurt. On the less self inflicted side if you have a slight air leak or blockage and the system doesn't prime right away having lubed the impeller will keep you from smoking it before you figure out the source of your troubles. Anything that doesnt soften the rubber certainly wont due more harm than good. |
That sounds good. I use Vaseline.
------------- Js
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Posted By: Frankenotter
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 12:39am
baitkiller wrote:
Spit on it
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LMAO
------------- 1999 Ski Nautique 196
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 3:47am
I worked for a rubber company for 10 years 1980 to 1990, any petroleum based product will help rot the rubber. Personally I want the new impeller to last so I don't use petroleum based product on the rubber impeller. Putting them in dry is a lot of extra effort for no gain. I use Dawn dish soap in a strong mix with water. Makes it slippery for install with no danger to any parts or the rubber impeller blades. I also laughed at the SPIT comment but it would work well if you work fast. The soap will evaporate slower and give you more time to get the impeller installed. I imagine any dish soap would work but I have Dawn on hand so that is what I use. My Slime in the boat for getting feet into tight ski boots is the same mix, helps with the install with no aging of the ski boots.
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Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 11:26am
Mark, thanks for the excellent info. I wondered about the "grease" recommendation by MerCruiser. I had settled on petroleum jelly (Vaselene) but will use Dawn or similar dish water soap instead. I've seen ads for impellers that will run "15 minutes dry" and wonder if they are rubber.
Here is the impeller being replaced (on left) and the new one (on right.) Note the difference in thickness of blades.
------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 12:06pm
The one on the left is not oem. The oem one on the right has the ridges on the edge. The run dry ones are made of some sort of plastic material which if were any good I'm sure Sherwood would use.
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 5:10pm
I have only worked on PCM Marine and Mercury Marine V-8's with the raw water pumps. Every used impeller I ever pulled out had the blades rolled over in a set like the left photo above. I think they just acquire a set over time.
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Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 5:24pm
MrMcD wrote:
I worked for a rubber company for 10 years 1980 to 1990, any petroleum based product will help rot the rubber. |
MrMcD, how about ski bindings and drysuit seals, also rubber based in many cases, what would be the ideal lube solution for those?? I was under the impression dishwashing liquid was bad for rubber and the best/safest solution for binding lube is laundry detergent mixed 1:3 with water?? Obviously now I am wondering if the dawn being bad was mis-information?? And if the laundry detergent is a safe alternative?? Thanks
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Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 5:39pm
I am certainly learning a lot about impellers. A good thing, methinks. Here are two pumps I'm "restoring" as this topic is being discussed.
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Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 5:48pm
Here's one where we waited a bit too long:
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Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 5:56pm
I wonder . . .
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Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 6:00pm
^^^^^ bet its just glycerin
------------- Jesus was a bare-footer.............
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 7:04pm
I wish I could give you a real answer about dish washing detergent vs laundry detergent. No background on that. Could be worth a little reading to find out. I am not aware of dish soap hurting rubber products. I always used the dish soap figuring it always washes off with water otherwise our food would taste of the detergent. I have never questioned the thought till you brought it up. To be safe certainly stick with the manufacturers recommendation if possible.
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 7:36pm
GMacLaren wrote:
Here's one where we waited a bit too long:
| Or ran it without water. Looking at the damage, that's the likely cause.
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Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 7:56pm
The boat was never run out of the water. It lives in a wet WI boathouse and has never been started until in the water. Maybe it was "run dry" because the impeller was worn and could not properly prime the pump. It had been running on the lake for about an hour before the temp. increased, and I stopped the engine. On the other hand, my friend who owns the boat, had not looked at the impeller for more than six years.
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 8:26pm
GMacLaren wrote:
my friend who owns the boat, had not looked at the impeller for more than six years. | And I've gone (as Tim remembered from a previous post) 14 years on impellers (dual cavity on my 312). It too lives in a boathouse in northern Wisconsin. Yours is a classic case of running dry. Even if you or your friend drops it in the water before starting, does he check to see if the RWP is primed?
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Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 9:26pm
8122pbrainard wrote:
. . . does he check to see if the RWP is primed? |
She never checks.
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Posted By: jhersey29
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 9:31pm
Why do the darn things shred apart in the first place? A piece breaks off and gets stuck in the outlet hole or inlet and rips the rest apart? I know the last time I shredded one it was right after a start heard the belt squeal and thought it strange. Ski course run later steam blowing out the back. Gave me a good clue why the squeal but it seemed so spontaneous with no warning signs at all.
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Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 9:37pm
And I've gone (as Tim remembered from a previous post) 14 years on impellers (dual cavity on my 312). It too lives in a boathouse in northern Wisconsin. Yours is a classic case of running dry. Even if you or your friend drops it in the water before starting, does he check to see if the RWP is primed?
This is absurd and an anomaly. 14 years on an impeller is not something to boast about. In addition I will add that a well maintained pump and plumbed system will not require priming. These are not flooded suction pumps. You want a rule-of-thumb? How about the third year is borrowed time.
------------- Jesus was a bare-footer.............
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Posted By: OldSchoolBlue84
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 9:43pm
It's cheap insurance, I replace mine every spring
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 10:02pm
In our group of ski friends with many tournament boats and 30+ years boating together it seems we usually get a small warning. The engine starts to run a little warmer at idle not long before it goes out. Usually temps are normal running but hotter at idle. Heed the warnings, I don't think you get 1 more hour use after the temp fluctuates before you are stranded with no pump at all. I am an every other year replacer now.
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Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 10:56pm
MrMcD wrote:
I am an every other year replacer now. | I like that idea. I'm also thinking of removing the impeller when winterizing (some of us have to) -- just to see if it loses its "set" when out of the pump.
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Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 11:29pm
I used to review test results for rubber parts, they test against heat, aging, UV, ozone, oil, & compression set, but not alkali resistance. I think dawn is a safe bet.
Ozone is one of rubber's worst enemies. If you remove it during layup, put it in a ziplock bag, out of the sunlight & it will last much longer.
------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: February-09-2015 at 11:40pm
It has been my experence that once they take a set it will always be there. On a Sherwood they are easy enough to remove,so I do. But the Jabsco on the HM is a different story,it uses a paper gasket thats 12.00 a pop so I rarely remove it. It was left up north for the first time in years so I pulled it to make sure there was no water in it.
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-10-2015 at 8:34am
8122pbrainard wrote:
baitkiller wrote:
a well maintained pump and plumbed system will not require priming. These are not flooded suction pumps. | Correct a flex impeller pump is self priming but, if there is a air leak or say a hose not connected after winterizing preventing priming, it doesn't take long to heat up from lack of lubrication. The rubber quickly deteriorates and breaks up from heat. |
baitkiller wrote:
14 years on an impeller is not something to boast about. |
Did you read the original thread? It was not boasting but rather stated fact. It was mentioned due to the belief that impellers need to be replaced every year. That is what's absurd!
This is the only reason to use a non petroleum based lubricant:
JoeinNY wrote:
On the less self inflicted side if you have a slight air leak or blockage and the system doesn't prime right away having lubed the impeller will keep you from smoking it before you figure out the source of your troubles. |
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-10-2015 at 9:10am
GMacLaren wrote:
I've seen ads for impellers that will run "15 minutes dry" and wonder if they are rubber. | They are a urethane compound instead of a Buna-N.
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Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: February-11-2015 at 12:32am
Found on page 11 of the Sherwood Pump manual:
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Posted By: turningpoint84
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 12:52pm
GMacLaren wrote:
8122pbrainard wrote:
. . . does he check to see if the RWP is primed? |
She never checks. |
How are you checking to see if your's is primed, seems like a PITA everytime you want to go out on the boat...
I have noticed mine struggles when i'm idling, i have to speed up to get the damn thing to work, my engine temp just starts to sky rocket, so i pick up the speed to cool her down. It's an issue I haven't had a chance to spend time on, but would love to get it fixed.
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Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 1:04pm
I am really learning as I go. Sound to me like you are really ready for a pump rebuild -- maybe only an impeller. But I'd suggest you do it NOW; don't put it off. With a good pump, you won't have to "check for prime." If you see water at the exhaust very shortly after engine start, ypu'll be good to go.
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Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 1:07pm
he's more likely sucking air
poor pump performance and you'll only get hotter with RPM
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Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 1:14pm
8122pbrainard wrote:
GMacLaren wrote:
I've seen ads for impellers that will run "15 minutes dry" and wonder if they are rubber. | They are a urethane compound instead of a Buna-N. |
A friend here looked at my new Sherwood impeller and said he doesn't think it's rubber. (He's the once-owner of the once largest boat dealer here in STL and has rebuilt many boat engines. He's retired now, but still restores outboards -- he's rebuilt hundreds.) He thinks the material is a sophisticated compound devised especially for the pump impeller application.
BTW, Sherwood has a nice PDF of their 2009-10 manual on the 'net. They sure make many models.
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 1:17pm
turningpoint84 wrote:
How are you checking to see if your's is primed, seems like a PITA everytime you want to go out on the boat...
I have noticed mine struggles when i'm idling, i have to speed up to get the damn thing to work, my engine temp just starts to sky rocket, so i pick up the speed to cool her down. It's an issue I haven't had a chance to spend time on, but would love to get it fixed.
| Checking each time you go out isn't needed. It's after draining when it should be checked. Hoses should feel cool, feel pressurized and water should be exiting the exhaust.
Speed up to cool!! That's not a solution. You have a problem that needs to be attended to. Check for leaks on the suction side of the RWP. If none, then rebuild the pump. The shaft seal may be sucking air. How does the impeller look? Hopefully you NEVER run the boat without being in the water or hooked up to the hose.
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Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 1:25pm
Making sure everything is leak free is paramount in impeller performance. People shred stuff all the time and I have no clue how.
I use just a little cheap dish soap sometimes if it is available. Otherwise I just put water in it. I dry start before I go to the ramp just long enough to hear it fire. I drive my stuff like I stole it and I get about 3 seasons or 260-350 ish hours out of the G21 impellers.
My trigger to replace is when the temp starts to creep up a little at idle after a long BF run and takes a while to come down.
Not so much the wear but the rubber compound gets soft and squishy and reduces pumping efficiency.
(edit) I also remove belts/hoses during winterization and turn the impeller backwards to remove any water in it. Leave it that way till spring and turn it by hand to make sure it isn't stuck to the housing an rips a blade off like I've seen so many times.
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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 1:26pm
Hollywood wrote:
he's more likely sucking air
poor pump performance and you'll only get hotter with RPM | +1
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Posted By: turningpoint84
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 3:57pm
8122pbrainard wrote:
turningpoint84 wrote:
How are you checking to see if your's is primed, seems like a PITA everytime you want to go out on the boat...
I have noticed mine struggles when i'm idling, i have to speed up to get the damn thing to work, my engine temp just starts to sky rocket, so i pick up the speed to cool her down. It's an issue I haven't had a chance to spend time on, but would love to get it fixed.
| Checking each time you go out isn't needed. It's after draining when it should be checked. Hoses should feel cool, feel pressurized and water should be exiting the exhaust.
Speed up to cool!! That's not a solution. You have a problem that needs to be attended to. Check for leaks on the suction side of the RWP. If none, then rebuild the pump. The shaft seal may be sucking air. How does the impeller look? Hopefully you NEVER run the boat without being in the water or hooked up to the hose. |
The pump i took apart several times to try to diagnose the issues, but couldn't figure it out, the pump is in great condition. Also the hoses are fine...i figure if i'm sucking air just about the only spot i could is where it attaches to the RWP....anything below that and wouldnt i be taking on water into the boat when it's at rest?
I'm thinking about installing my left over 318 RWP i have laying around from the 318 i junked. my 1970 has a 273.
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 4:25pm
turningpoint84 wrote:
The pump i took apart several times to try to diagnose the issues, but couldn't figure it out, the pump is in great condition. Also the hoses are fine...i figure if i'm sucking air just about the only spot i could is where it attaches to the RWP. | How did you "diagnose the issue" with the RWP?
How do you know the pump is in "great condition"?
Have you tightened up hose connections?
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Posted By: jhersey29
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 4:39pm
Strainer cup cracked or missing oring?
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 5:32pm
jhersey29 wrote:
Strainer cup cracked or missing oring? | Unless a strainer was added, a 70 would not have a strainer. Also, with a dual pickup dual pocket RWP, Peter would need two strainers on his 318.
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64 X55 Dunphy
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Posted By: turningpoint84
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 6:14pm
8122pbrainard wrote:
turningpoint84 wrote:
The pump i took apart several times to try to diagnose the issues, but couldn't figure it out, the pump is in great condition. Also the hoses are fine...i figure if i'm sucking air just about the only spot i could is where it attaches to the RWP. | How did you "diagnose the issue" with the RWP?
How do you know the pump is in "great condition"?
Have you tightened up hose connections? |
I took off the outlet hose connections and ran the engine, water came out at a decent rate, (only for a minute or 2).
Hose connections I can't make any tighter unless i break the hose clamp
and yes I have 2 strainers. John B and I didn't spend too much time on it, next summer, i'll spend sometime on it and figure it out, new hoses wouldn't hurt.
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Posted By: Tim D
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 6:16pm
I would really like to see video evidence of a RWP sucking air at the shaft seal. The only place where lift or "suction" occurs is at the cam where the impeller blades bend. If a shaft seal is bad, water is going to come out. The seal is designed to keep water away from the bearing.
------------- Tim D
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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 6:17pm
An overheat at idle is still all but guaranteed to be an air leak. There are more opportunities in a dual impeller Chrysler than most. Hose condition can be a contributor as well, and no, I would not expect an air leak to show up as a water leak with the engine off.
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Posted By: harddock
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 6:38pm
Lately for water ski bindings we have been using hair conditioner. A little remains so taking off a tight binding is easier as well.Some use shaving cream, some a mild dish soap. Nothing is petroleum based!
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 7:18pm
TRBenj wrote:
and no, I would not expect an air leak to show up as a water leak with the engine off. | I agree since without the engine running, the delta P is equal inside to outside. With it running, the delta P is less inside than out.
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 8:27pm
turningpoint84 wrote:
John B didn't spend too much time on it | Peter, I feel I've figured out you problem!
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Posted By: The Godfather
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 8:56pm
Just replaced mine and it was bad with 45 hours.. Sorry no pics
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: February-12-2015 at 10:10pm
Our 95 was sucking air initially. It was the seal on the water filter cover. It does not take much to pull air rather than water and air will flow through holes that water may not leak from.
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Posted By: turningpoint84
Date Posted: February-13-2015 at 2:26pm
8122pbrainard wrote:
TRBenj wrote:
and no, I would not expect an air leak to show up as a water leak with the engine off. | I agree since without the engine running, the delta P is equal inside to outside. With it running, the delta P is less inside than out. |
Really? i figured there would be a little bit of pressure inside that hose due to water just wanting the fill the cavity of the boat if the hose wasn't connected to the strainer.
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-13-2015 at 4:06pm
turningpoint84 wrote:
Really? i figured there would be a little bit of pressure inside that hose due to water just wanting the fill the cavity of the boat if the hose wasn't connected to the strainer. | It's a open system. The only pressure past the RWP is from restriction and head. Not much head since 27" equals 1 PSI.
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