351 overheating
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35937
Printed Date: June-22-2024 at 11:42pm
Topic: 351 overheating
Posted By: FootFever78
Subject: 351 overheating
Date Posted: May-03-2015 at 3:27pm
| Bought a 92 excel last Fall with a 351 in it and spent the winter reconditioning the boat. This is my first inboard. I ran the engine last week and unfortunately did so without the drain plugs reinstalled (I didn't remember they had been taken out for a quick winterization) Put the plugs in, put in a new strainer with an O=ring, put in a new impeller, and took the boat to the ramp. Engine heated right up to 220. Brought it back to the house and ran it with a garden hose pushed in the hose that goes from the strainer. The boat temp came down to 160. Then replaced that hose on the strainer, and detached the hose from the intake and shoved that in a bucket. It sucked the water in and ran fine at around 160 - 170. Also put that hose down the intake coupling and blew a bunch of junk out of the intake. Thought that was it - took to the ramp and it overheated again. And that's where I am at. I am very coachable here, and while I searched and reviewed threads on "overheating", I wasn't able to locate the same symptoms, I would happy check out any threads someone already knows of. Appreciate the direction. |
Replies:
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-03-2015 at 3:45pm
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Jim, It sounds like you did the needed checking but go over your hoses again. No screwdriver on the hose clamps. You can't get enough torque. Use a nut driver or socket. Overheating at idle indicates sucking air someplace but it could also be a blockage. Check for bits of old impeller at the T stat and at the trans cooler. Was the old impeller busted up? Do use an OEM impeller and not one of the aftermarket ones like Sierra. There are known problems with them. Sucking from the bucket is the best method for troubleshooting since problems aren't masked by direct pressure from the hose. You did find all the missing plugs correct? Welcome to CCfan. We always ask for pictures so when you get the heat issue fixed, post some! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: FootFever78
Date Posted: May-03-2015 at 5:11pm
| Thanks Pbrainard. I did find bits of the old impeller in the housing. I meant to mention that I did check the tstat, which was busted. In fact, half of it (the coil part) wasmissing entirely. Could that be causing a blockage? I replaced that with oem tstat from N3 Boatworks. I did verify the nuts are all back in. I will go over the hoses again with the socket And check the bucket approach again. Will report back asap. Thanks again! |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: May-03-2015 at 5:54pm
| Pretty unlikely but sounds like it wouldn't hurt to check the actual intake. Maybe someone bottom painted over it or something. |
Posted By: FootFever78
Date Posted: May-04-2015 at 1:22pm
| Update: Checked the strainer and hose from the intake. At idle with a garden hose pushed into the intake end of the hose, there were no bubbles in the strainer. When revving, the bubbles began appearing in the strainer. My next move is to bypass the strainer all-together. The intake hose also looks suspect so I'll be replacing that and all other hoses asap. The intake looks clean now. Will provide another update once able to bypass the strainer and test. This sucker really wants to run. Hopefully I can replace the strainer if needed and/or o-ring(s) and be off the races. |
Posted By: halfnelly
Date Posted: May-04-2015 at 1:37pm
Try running the intake hose and a garden hose into a bucket instead of hooking it up directly to the garden hose. When hooked up directly, the garden hose will supply enough water at idle, but as the pump speeds up it will either pull air or collapse the hose. Using a bucket is much more of a real world simulation to see how much the pump pulls on its own without water being force-fed into the pump. |
FootFever78 wrote:Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: May-04-2015 at 3:07pm
| You can definitely buy a new OEM strainer. Zach can hook you up. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: May-04-2015 at 3:16pm
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I had strainer issues last year. My Oring was not sealing. I filled the Oring slot with silicone, Wiped the clear cover with a thin film of Vaseline and bolted it together and let it cure. It works now and the cover is still removable, but now it seals on silicone rather than the O ring. If I had a spare O ring on hand I would have used it. On torqueing the hose clamps, the intake hose is large and stiff, nearly impossible to clamp it cold. Warm the engine and the hose if possible and tighten it while warm and you will get a good clamp. If you don't have a good hot sun and a warm engine to work with a hair dryer can heat the hose up pretty quickly. You will be surprised how easy it is to clamp while warm, it gets more flexible. |
Posted By: spiralhelix
Date Posted: May-04-2015 at 3:27pm
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UPDATE: I stand corrected. disregard the suggestion below. fwiw, when we had water pump issues, a buddy just replaced all my intake lines from the through hull to the t-stat housing with 1" I.D. clear braided vinyl tubing. Every time i start the boat, first thing i look at is that water is flowing from the through hull intake, through the strainer, trans cooler, RWP, to the t-stat. piece of mind for $20. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-04-2015 at 7:50pm
Careful - it may collapse. Wire reinforced has been mentioned many times here.as the recommended replacement ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: spiralhelix
Date Posted: May-04-2015 at 8:07pm
yes. in my head I had reinforced, guess I typed too quickly. Thanks for the catch Pete.
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Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: May-04-2015 at 9:19pm
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Braided clear vinyl and wire reinforced rubber are not the same. Bubbles off the hose are because the house pressure isn't enough to supply a revving RWP, not idicative of any air leak. ------------- |
Posted By: Waternut
Date Posted: May-09-2015 at 7:52pm
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Did you ever figure out this problem? The clear braided hose is usually pretty stiff at 1" ID. Theoretically, clear braided is really meant to assist positive pressure (inside out). Wire reinforced is meant to resist vacuum (outside in) and resist kicking. Considering the low pressure dealt with in our boats, both are plenty stiff and both resist kinking pretty well. ------------- |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-09-2015 at 9:45pm
John, Your stating the intended purpose of the tubing or hose is correct. You being an engineer I'm sure will also agree that the hg" vac ratings (not low pressure) of each are important before selection for suction sides of any pump. On the suction side of the RWP, I do not suggest anyone to use the braided vinyl tubing "Joe Schmo" found I'm sure at the hardware store. On the pressure side of the RWP has issues as well. Yes, it's braided to resist pressure but it gets real soft as temperatures go up and the reason ratings are given along with temperature. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: FootFever78
Date Posted: May-09-2015 at 10:03pm
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All good coaching here. I bought the vinyl reinforced hose and plan to use for diagnosis. Really liked the clear hose idea to sight air pockets, etc. If new hose solves the problem I will replace with the right hose. I am desperate for a smooth running, dependable ride. Until that happens, I will be trying most anything. It's function over firm at this point. Thanks all for the coaching. I hope to have a positive report tomorrow afternoon as that will be my first chance to wrench in a week. First world problems.... |
Posted By: cmacbuck69
Date Posted: May-10-2015 at 11:32am
| I have been having similar issues with my 83 SN. Did the same checks and all is good with the impeller, pump, t-stat, strainer o-ring etc... I pressurized the system with the garden hose and found no water leaks. Then with the bucket water test in the driveway, the RWP was pulling very strong (so the RWP is ruled out for now) yet I was still up around the 200 degree area. Then I checked the circulating pump and the pulley has a bit of wobble to it telling me that the bearings are going bad and it is struggling to take the raw water and push it through the block. Curious if I am on the right path, any thoughts? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-10-2015 at 11:47am
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Chris, You could be heading in the proper direction but I would not rule out there is still a problem with sucking air. You pressure tested the system but air can get sucked in whereas water will not be pushed out at leaks. . Where you connected for the bucket test will also make a difference. Was the strainer and hose to the pick up included? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: cmacbuck69
Date Posted: May-10-2015 at 12:13pm
| Peter, yes it was connected to the hose on the intake side of the strainer. The strainer o-ring is brand new. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-10-2015 at 11:26pm
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Chris, Have you checked the T stat to see if it actually works? The old school method is to put it in hot water on the stove along with a thermometer. While you have the T stat housing open, check for chunks of old RWP impeller. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: cmacbuck69
Date Posted: May-10-2015 at 11:38pm
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The engine was completely rebuilt with a new t-stat and impeller, but still ran both of those checks and both were good. Another interesting fact that I have struggled to process is that the water leaking out of the strainer lid last weekend before the new o-ring was installed was too hot to touch, at the strainer. Points back to circulating pump not pushing water into the engine and heating up the water on the suction side of the RWP... May be reaching here but nothing else makes sense. |
Posted By: kytom2
Date Posted: May-10-2015 at 11:54pm
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I don't think water in the strainer should not be hot. Water in the strainer is straight from the lake. ------------- |
Posted By: cmacbuck69
Date Posted: May-11-2015 at 12:43am
| Exactly! So how could it get hot? My theory is that the circulating pump was not circulating the raw water into and out of the block. The RWP, doing all or most of the work, could not replace the hot water quick enough with raw water so the heat build up made its way upstream into the suction side... Any ideas? |
Posted By: jhersey29
Date Posted: May-11-2015 at 1:28am
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Can we get a video of the exhaust water output when on the bucket or hose? Here is a video of a GT40. 351 but with EFI. Block is probably about the same, water pump is the same I believe. https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=f02b1d32fd09adf0!20367&authkey=!AO6q_AujpeoYyuk&ithint=video%2cmp4" rel="nofollow - https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=f02b1d32fd09adf0!20367&authkey=!AO6q_AujpeoYyuk&ithint=video%2cmp4 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-11-2015 at 7:32am
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Chris, You mentioned the engine has been rebuilt. Check the routing of the plumbing to make sure it was installed properly. How about posting some pictures especially the hose around the RWP. Even though you did a bucket test, are you sure the RWP isn't installed backwards? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: cmacbuck69
Date Posted: May-11-2015 at 10:14am
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Unfortunately I don't have videos of the discharge and I'm out of town this week. The plumbing routing is correct. It's a reverse rotation engine and the RWP screw is to the outside. The arrow on the strainer is also pointing in the correct direction. Water flow through the tranny oil cooler is opposite the flow of dex. |
Posted By: FootFever78
Date Posted: May-11-2015 at 3:28pm
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Update: I installed new hoses (clear with braided reinforcement) so that I could see what's happening. I bypassed the strainer, ran a hose into a bucket full of water. Engine fired right up, ran to temperature, sucked in water no problem. I then re-installed the strainer and put the intake hose in the bucket to run the same test, and the engine only sporadically sucked water before stopping all-together. (all of this was done in my driveway) Figuring the strainer had a leak, I took the boat to the ramp and ran a hose from the intake to where the strainer hose normally attached to the engine (can't recall that part name). So no strainer. The boat sucked water up to the top of the hose but would not suck water consistently, not even for awhile. Very frustrating because I thought I had it isolated to a faulty strainer. So now I am thinking I may have smoked the impeller somewhere along the line and that it needs replaced. I'm going to check that tonight as I ran out of time yesterday (Mother's day obligations). My question is this: Could my other water pump (not the RWP) be bad? Is there a way to test that before buying a new one? |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: May-11-2015 at 4:07pm
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Ski dim mentions a way to check the circ pump: http://www.skidim.com/Faq_TROUBLESHOOT.asp#RWTS" rel="nofollow - http://www.skidim.com/Faq_TROUBLESHOOT.asp#RWTS It's #6 of the overheating troubleshoot. However, I don't think a bad circ pump would have an affect on the RWP's ability to pull water from the lake/bucket. |
Posted By: kytom2
Date Posted: May-11-2015 at 5:23pm
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In my mind the only way you could get hot water in the stainer, is the rwp is putting it there. That would mean you have a hose on backwards. How would you be picking up any water to go thru the block to get heated up? The only water intake would not being used. Instead you would be trying to push water out of the water intake thru the strainer. ------------- |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-11-2015 at 7:41pm
Tom, Gravity!  As the boat is pulled out of the lake, some of the water in the engine runs backwards.------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: May-11-2015 at 8:03pm
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Don't think so ------------- |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: May-11-2015 at 8:40pm
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Any chance you have a shower or heater? sometimes they are plumbed oddly. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: cmacbuck69
Date Posted: May-11-2015 at 11:14pm
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I wish gravity were the answer, but we were sitting in the creek trying to take the strainer lid off to re-seat the o-ring, but the water was too hot. Again though, the plumbing is correct and the RWP pulls strong from the bucket. It also pushes it out of the exhaust, but maybe not as efficiently as Jim's GT40 clip. I think the circ pump is working, but at partial capacity. It is the original pump and has slight wobble to it. I've ordered the circ pump for a Saturday replace. |
Posted By: cmacbuck69
Date Posted: May-16-2015 at 11:33pm
So it's not the circulation pump. Everything has been check, verified, confirmed with the process repeated. Then I decided to shoot it with an infrared thermometer on the intake manifold just before the thermostat housing and it was just above 160 each time I shot it while the dash gauge was reading around 200. The next logical step is the water temperature sender.   
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Posted By: jhersey29
Date Posted: May-17-2015 at 12:34am
| Aren't carbed boats running 140 and efi 163? Do you have the correct thermostat? Looks like a sender or gauge. Good luck |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-17-2015 at 7:41am
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Chris, Before you purchase parts, I always suggest testing first. Get the VOM out and check the resistance at the gauge from the sender. Gauge manufactures do have references available for Ohms to temps. http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=842" rel="nofollow - This one happens to be Teleflex. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: cmacbuck69
Date Posted: May-17-2015 at 12:13pm
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After troubleshooting the Teleflex guide, here is what I found: Codes on side of the the temp sender- one side = 02020, the other side = 782. Neither of these are listed in the manual. Is the temp sensor specific to the temp gauge? At the temp sensor I am getting about 620 ohms. This falls into the lower acceptable range of 600 to 800 ohms. Between the I and G terminal on temp gauge, I am getting 10.1 V. Again the lower of the acceptable range of 10-16 VDC. When I move the S wire to the G terminal, the Teleflex troubleshooting guide says this should peg the temp needle to 240 and it does not move the needle position. I am correct to assume then that the gauge is the issue? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-17-2015 at 1:46pm
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Chris, When you ground the S terminal, you are removing all the resistance from the gauge. Make sure you are grounding to a known good ground. Most gauges have the ground terminal for the lighting only. The 10.1 volts to the gauge is on the low end especially if the engine is running. Start at the battery with voltage and move through the wiring to see if you find a spot you are loosing the volts. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: cmacbuck69
Date Posted: May-17-2015 at 3:04pm
| I connected a ground to my fuse black installed for the stereo system and that had the same result with not spiking the needle to 240+. Also the engine was not running when I took the readings I gave earlier that may explain why they were low. |
Posted By: BoyceByerly
Date Posted: May-21-2015 at 12:09am
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Hey guys, newbie here with an old '79 Correct Craft Mustang, with a question about overheating. I took the boat out last weekend, and the exhaust hoses split pretty badly. (I'll omit the dramatic story about the amount of water it took on, etc.). I've had it for a couple years, and have no idea how many owners it's had, so I just assumed that the hoses were totally old and rotten, and replaced the hoses (plus, every other hose in the cooling/exhaust systems that looked suspect). In reading through the posts, I've seen that an overheating engine often ruins the exhaust hoses, and have been rethinking what happened. Given that: 1) Both hoses ruptured in numerous places, and 2) The temperature gauge did NOT come up, despite the boat having been run for about 5 minutes 3) One of the flappers came off. I'm wondering if something other than rotten exhaust hoses is involved here. Maybe a blocked strainer? Could the water pump be bad (symptom #2 above) is what really puzzles me -- it could be the gauge went bad over the winter, I winterized the boat in the normal way, but it was a really cold winter here. Should I take the water pump apart? ------------- Boyce Byerly Owner of a '79 Mustang |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: May-21-2015 at 12:20am
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That's a little bit of a toughie. At least two issues, one being the gauge/sender situation, and one (or more) making up the actual cooling situation. Did you figure out if the engine actually did overheat? I guess it would be very coincidental for both hoses to randomly split. You need to start with the bucket test, google correctcraftfan bucket test. The essence of the idea is that you make the boat pull it's own water from a bucket, rather than force feeding it with a hose, to get an idea of what's going on. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: May-21-2015 at 12:39am
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36 year old hoses are your problem,time to change them. I changed my Mustangs heads after 20 years the hoses were starting to get bubbles inside them. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: BoyceByerly
Date Posted: May-23-2015 at 11:17pm
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Okay, thanks for the help. The 'bucket test' materials helped me diagnose the problem. I'll explain what the problem was (it was a popped freeze plug) and then ask for more help (I can't figure out how to fix the freeze plug.) When I got all the hoses and exhausts and everything back in place, I started the bucket test, and immediately noted water pouring out of the side of the block on the starboard side. It was a freeze plug. When I winterized, I pulled the lower parts of the hoses and drained it, and then pulled the upper parts of the hoses and poured in about a gallon of RV antifreeze. In retrospect, I should have used more antifreeze, and/or run the engine a bit to make sure it mixed thoroughly around the block. There must have been a pocket of water in the lower part of the engine. It was a particularly cold winter this year in NC; I'm sure my winterizing would have not been up to scratch for colder areas. The missing freeze plug must have (1) caused the engine to overheat, stressing the elderly exhaust hoses and blowing them, and (2) left no water to flow over the engine temp sensor, accounting for the very low temperature reading. Now, my question is, what do I do about it? The videos I've seen online about how to hammer the plugs back into place presume you can swing a hammer onto the plugs to pound them in, and these plugs are blocked thoroughly by the engine mounts. I can press the plug in with my fingers pretty easily, but that seems inadequate to make them stay, even using gasket shellac as suggested. It might be that pulling the engine and unbolting the manifolds would give me some leverage, but that's too horrible to even think about. Any advice? Oh, it's a '79 Mustang with a 302 Ford V8, if that helps. -Boyce ------------- Boyce Byerly Owner of a '79 Mustang |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: May-23-2015 at 11:55pm
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Unfortunately I think by your description you winterized wrong. Sounds like you did not remove the plugs that drain the block,one is on the starboard front near the and about the height of the freeze plugs. The other is the port side toward the rear of the block. You drain those, drain the hoses,drain the manifolds then pour antifreeze in . Matter of fact if you made sure everything was drained North Carolina doesn't get cold enough to even need antifreeze.. Many up here in the Great White North winterize the same way. Antifreeze is just insurance. Part of the problem was diluting what antifreeze you did put in with the water that was left in the block.. You now might have to use a bottle jack under the starboard manifold and depending which plug it is,remove the starter or motor mount so you can put in a new brass freeze plug,after cleaning the hole with some emery cloth just to make sure it's clean. You could smeer the contact area of the plug with some permatex. Google or check u tube on how to put one in,I just use a socket that just fits inside the plug and a hammer. Good Luck ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: cmacbuck69
Date Posted: June-06-2015 at 12:09am
Finally found the issue! I have been so focused on getting cold water into the engine that I overlooked the hot water getting out. The exhaust manifold riser was swollen so bad from corrosion that it was letting a small portion of hot water out of the engine. Two photos, 1 is the old riser and 2. the new riser. Replaced both risers, dunked her in the creek for a test run and she is running like a top!  
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Posted By: FootFever78
Date Posted: June-06-2015 at 9:15pm
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Not sure if I posted the fix to my issue, so here goes if not: I took the RWP off for the 3rd time at the suggestion of Zach at N3 Boatworks. The thinking at the time was a rebuild kit. When we went to take the impeller off, it wouldn't budge - it was stuck on the shaft. After much prying, it popped off. We discovered the "key" in the shaft that should slide in/out easily was actually rusted to the point that it would not allow the impeller to install all the way despite allowing it to rotate. What resulted was a gap between the bottom of the impeller and the back of the RWP plate. This gap both allowed water to skirt the impeller, as well as prevent the RWP from screwing all the way back together despite appearing so. This was clearly the air leak culprit. Did a light "rebuild" inclusive of a new impeller (just 'cause) and a new "key", etc. Now it pulls like a mule. Thanks to all for the advice and patience. And next time I'll know to take pictures while troubleshooting. The fix actually surprised me at the time. JFH |
Posted By: BoyceByerly
Date Posted: June-07-2015 at 3:18pm
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I managed to get it fixed, so I thought I would add a note or two. First, I never did the standard plugs in; I use the "performance" ones you can get with a nut in the middle of it that tightens. That was way easier than pounding the brass one covered in gasket seal in. I just never got the knack of getting it in there, even using the trick with freezing it. Secondly, taking ONE engine mount is not a big deal, just some wrench work. The remaining three support it fine. The biggest problem was that the clearance between the engine mount and the freeze plug was still really low. My experience was that with the freeze plug mounted and tightened, the engine mount would fit, by about 3/8". So what I ended up doing was putting the plug in, remounting the engine bracket, THEN tightening the nut on the freeze plug. The bolt then comes out enough to press tight against the engine mount. It's hardly "factory", but it works and stays in fine with no leakage. ------------- Boyce Byerly Owner of a '79 Mustang |