Clatter going into forward and reverse intermitten
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=36213
Printed Date: June-25-2024 at 2:21am
Topic: Clatter going into forward and reverse intermitten
Posted By: Spievy79
Subject: Clatter going into forward and reverse intermitten
Date Posted: June-02-2015 at 4:03pm
| I recently had a transmission swap done on a pcm 351, I had a bad oil pump on my 1:1 velvet and I swapped to a used in good working order velvet 1:1 that came from my parts motor. I had it done by a shop locally due to my lack of knowledge on transmissions and time. They performed the swap and when I dropped it off I said replace anything that needs it. Specifically the damper. They ended up using one of the two used dampers and I'm trying to figure out if it went south on me already? I've now timed the engine 3 times and got the new motor running very well so I'm fairly sure it's not engine related. What I'm getting is a rattle/chatter noise from the tranny/bell housing. Every post I've read says damper plate. However, it's putting a strain on the engine so much that it kills it most times if I don't goose it a little. I've yet to read of anyone else having it that severe. And finally which stumps me the most is it is doing it intermittently? Any help is appreciated. Btw I'll be doing it myself, I would rather eat the free repair and KNOW it's done correctly |
Replies:
Posted By: scootdogydog
Date Posted: June-02-2015 at 4:09pm
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did they align the prop shaft? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7183" rel="nofollow - 1999 Python 1980 Ski Tique 1968 Mustang WIP |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-02-2015 at 4:21pm
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It sounds like your engine is not in as good of tune as you think it is, could be as simple as you have the idle too low, or you adjusted the idle mixture in neutral and not in gear under load. A bad damper would not kill the engine, a really botched rebuild might but more likely is a not quite right engine tune at idle. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-02-2015 at 4:21pm
| Yes, I separated the flanges when I got it back and in the water for 24hrs. It is within .003 |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-02-2015 at 4:26pm
To where the prop spins freely? Because it's easy to dial in massive misalignment to within .003". Agree with joe, engine tune is your culprit if your alignment really is good. Possibly combined with a bad damper. |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-02-2015 at 4:32pm
| It's possible I could not get to 10 btdc @600 rpms. The best I could get was about 13 any lower and it just sputtered and died. I then turned in each idle screw until it stumbled, then backed each out a 1/4 turn, then readjusted idle and repeated. Maybe I'm missing something. I'm still learning how to tune an engine. |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-02-2015 at 4:45pm
| Could one of you direct me to a thread or tell me how to start back at square one as I'm entering the boat on what to start with first? |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-02-2015 at 4:48pm
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Sounds like tuning issues at a minimum. Try this: 1. Set idle mixture screws 1.5 turns out. Set idle adjustment to 700-750. 2. Set timing to 10-12 initial. Check final while you have the light out (should be 30-35 all in by 3000rpm). 3. Go back and dial in your carb. Adjust mixture screws for the strongest vacuum while at idle under load (in gear on the water). Readjust idle level to 650 while in gear. Make sure neutral idle isn't much higher (750 max) or that may be a sign of other issues. |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-02-2015 at 5:07pm
| Ok, a couple questions...30-35 max at 3000 rpms is at the dock I'm hoping? ;) as far as the idle mixture and idle screw do I leave it where it runs decent in neutral then go into gear THEN adjust idle screw or mixture screws first? That's where I get confused |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-02-2015 at 5:16pm
| Sorry one last question, I'm going on vacation and wondered if I should order a damper so it's here when I get back? Or would you advise doing the aforementioned items first? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-02-2015 at 7:48pm
Joel Tim's question is a good one. You were asked if they aligned the engine to the shaft and you did check that it's within the .003". However, is the strut aligned with the shaft??? It all starts at the strut!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
TRBenj wrote:Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-02-2015 at 8:19pm
| I could put it up on a lift to check it. Now that you mention that I've been getting a considerable shaking going on in gear. I assumed that it was The damper and or engine shaking. I will start there. This engine was a used pcm that I had bought last fall and I had to move the mounts around a lot compared to my old motor. Thank you for mentioning that. It could be binding up on me and it's causing all that extra stress. Shoulda kept my mustang 😖, this boat has brought nothing but headaches |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-02-2015 at 8:46pm
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Joel, When you got the .003" difference between the coupling faces, did you do the "quick check" for shaft straightness by rotating the shaft in 90 degree increments? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: June-03-2015 at 12:34am
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Spievy - Are you sure all cylinders are firing? If there is any question regarding the health of the damper- they don't cost much & are mission critical . . . ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-03-2015 at 2:15pm
| I am not familiar with the "quick check" I did rotate the shaft in 90 degree increments during the alignment and rechecked my gap. If you have a trick to check it I would love to hear about it |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-03-2015 at 2:20pm
| The engine runs excellent at idle so I didn't think to check all the cylinders 😟 |
Posted By: 74Wind
Date Posted: June-03-2015 at 2:54pm
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These guys are the wizards, but to my understanding if it were the dampener it would rattle every time, not intermittently, and also mostly just in reverse ------------- 1974 Southwind 18 1975 Century Mark II |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: June-03-2015 at 3:29pm
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Here's what Joe said: (except he didn't use all caps like I'm going to) "YOUR IDLE IS TOO LOW" 650 in gear is ideal. If I turn mine down to 600 it clatters. And mine does run absolutely perfect. Shaking ??? Have you looked at your propeller ? Bent or missing a blade ? How old are your plug wires ? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-03-2015 at 8:03pm
If you rotated the prop shaft and checked the difference after each rotation, then you did the quick check. If the shaft is bent, any clearance difference will follow the rotation. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-03-2015 at 8:22pm
| idle is set at 650. If I don't goose it, it clatters and dies. Prop is brand new as are plug wires, cap, rotor, plugs and electronic ignition ( which I am curious whether it's to blame??). I replaced the strut bushing with a vesconite when I redid all the stringer work. I did not touch the strut or shaft. |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-03-2015 at 8:40pm
| I'm planning to start with the strut to shaft alignment, then motor to coupling alignment and see if it helps. Then move on to the timing and carb adjustments after verifying all 8 cylinders are firing. Sound like a decent plan? |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-03-2015 at 9:20pm
| Always do timing first. |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-03-2015 at 10:14pm
| Gotcha. Thank you Tim |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: June-03-2015 at 11:06pm
| Shake and clatter??? Plug wires crossed??? |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-04-2015 at 2:56pm
| I will double check that. I checked and rechecked that ten times when I originally put it in but who knows I've pulled them for fogging and checking plugs since then. |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-16-2015 at 3:17pm
| Well today turned out to be a success! I started with my strut to shaft alignment and then to shaft, motor alignment and they were both spot on already. I started it up and double checked all cylinders were firing with my timing light. I then took each mixture screw to 1 1/2 out fired it up again and timed it to 11 btdc @750 rpm in neutral. What I wasn't doing initially the last several times was adjusting up the idle screw to get it to run at that time. Rookie mistake 😳 Once that was done I snugged up the distributor hooked up the vacuum gauge to the pcv port put it in gear and started my adjustments. After several up and downs to each mixture screw and idle screw adjustments the best I could get was about 13.5. Each mixture screw is I would guess pretty much where it started give or take an 1/8th or so. It ran excellent, no clattering at all and I was able to get 750 in neutral and 650 in gear. I really appreciate all the help!! |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-28-2015 at 5:03am
| I hate to have to continue this thread but my issues seem to have not gone away. For an hour run I had no issues, it ran perfect. This past week I took her out and it started up fine, idled well in neutral and under load. I ran it for a bit at WOT, then as I returned to idle after a few moments it started coughing and clattering again and died. Started it back up, idled in neutral pretty decent put it in gear and same problem. I limped it back home and decided to order a rebuild kit for the Holley and rebuilt my first carb. I never knew it's condition when I bought the motor so I figured it's a cheap item to rule out. It went pretty smoothly I thought, a lot of YouTube and threads from here and I was confident I did a good job. I reinstalled it started at 1 1/2 out on each mixture screw, hooked up the vacuum gauge again and got to a 14 which from what I've read is possibly a sub par number?? Anyways, it was idling good in gear and I took off it ran good wide open. I started and stopped 8-10 times and it ran perfect then once I hit a channel I idled through and a minute in it started doing it again. I'm at a loss 😤. I have a pertronix ignitor 1 on it with a 40000 volt pertronix coil on. It seemed pretty damn warm but I'm not sure how warm it should be. I'm not sure if it's an ignition problem possibly or if it's just a tired motor in need of a rebuild? Any suggestions I certainly appreciate. The issue never seems consistent so it's hard for me to know what to look at next. I'm happy to put points back in and try them but I don't know much at all about them |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-28-2015 at 7:20am
Joel, This was going to be my suggestion but you've already thought about it. If you can handle a carb, you won't have any problem setting the dwell. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-28-2015 at 8:37am
| from reading it looks like I would just need to pick up a dwell meter then? I already have the points and condenser from when I bought a new cap.. However I don't know that I know where the plate is. May have been misplaced?? Is that an item I might be able to find locally? Or perhaps I have my other prestolite distributor that I pulled which has the screw down cap though. Might that plate work? |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-28-2015 at 8:59am
| The points plates should swap between Prestolite styles. Otherwise you're probably out of luck... That plate can be hard to find. The commonly went in the trash when people converted to EI. Makes swapping back difficult if you didn't hold onto it. |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-28-2015 at 9:03am
| I'm thinking its a goner but I do have the spare so I'll see what I can do with it. It should just be as easy as moving my resistor wires back over and I'm guessing pick up a new coil as well? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-28-2015 at 9:26am
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Joel, Don't worry about the dwell meter just yet. Set the point gap with the feeler gauge, see if the problem persists and then go after it with the meter. I wouldn't worry about the coil ether. Many run the "high performance" coils on point sets. Do check to see if it needs the ballast resistor or not. BTW, I'd leave the point set in the boat!! It's been debated many times but in my opinion, the EI conversions are a PITA and do nothing. Were you expecting a performance gain? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-28-2015 at 10:11am
| I've had points in all of my past boats and they worked fine. Hell, I don't know why I felt the urge to try the ei, several buddies of mine raved about them. I personally thus far disagree on both ends. It MAY be my running problem and it's definitely not improved my cold or warm starts either so I do not see the benefit. I guess because I did not know how to replace or adjust points and nobody I talk to seems to either where I live, I figured it might be a positive upgrade was all. |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-28-2015 at 10:15am
| Btw Pete, what should the gap be with the feeler gauges? I was thinking I had read .018 somewhere? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-28-2015 at 1:09pm
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The .018 sounds good but do check the manual. In a pinch and at a landing, I've even used a matchbook cover! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: June-30-2015 at 11:21pm
| Well I grabbed my spare distributor and had forgotten that it had the older style prestolite electronic ignition in it so hence, no plate 👎🏻, so I am currently searching to find one. In the meantime I have been making some different changes and I was actually able to get it to run and stay running....however what I did is certainly not a permanent solution but maybe explaining what I did may throw flags to one of you experts?? I advanced the timing to 13-14 btdc first off, then I have my drivers side mixture screw at 2 turns out and my passenger side out 2 1/4 turns. I am able to be at 650 in gear but idle in neutral is 850. It is pretty shaky but idles and doesn't die. When I get to WOT though it is popping so I'm not sure if that's because it's a bit advanced or what. Any input as always is appreciated. I'm certainly not planning to keep things this way I just figured I would try some different things while trying to located the parts to reinstall the points again. |
Posted By: Spievy79
Date Posted: July-02-2015 at 1:53pm
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Well as hard as it is to admit it turns out I had a dumb$&@ attack....I pulled all my spark plugs and cylinders #5 and #8 were fouled and wet. Fearing the worst I did a compression test and all eight cylinders were between 123-130 so that was a good thing. So I decided maybe my checking and rechecking the firing order upon my build initially I somehow screwed it up. I swapped 5 and 8 and boom, she started right up didn't shake and I ran Her to about 45mph @ about 4800 rpm which I never even came close to since this engine has been in. At best I could get to maybe 3300 rpm before. So, problem solved. I really appreciate everyone's help, it always comes back around to the basics it seems.
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