1986 Ski backfiring
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37193
Printed Date: November-15-2024 at 6:15pm
Topic: 1986 Ski backfiring
Posted By: WHROSS
Subject: 1986 Ski backfiring
Date Posted: August-25-2015 at 11:58pm
Can anyone offer any advice? I am the original owner of an 86 Ski Nautique with a 351w. When I pulled it out of storage last year, I couldn't get it to idle on the trailer. After numerous checks, I found that the fuel lines had started deteriorating and black rubber ended up in the fuel system all the way into the carb. I had the fuel system replaced, tank cleaned, lines replaced, new separator cartridge, fuel pump and rebuilt carb. Also did a tune-up, electronic ignition upgrade, flamethrower coil, new cap, and plugs. Wires had been replaced the year before with ~40hrs on them. Filled tank with 89 octane and used StarTron ethanol additive. The boat ran perfectly for almost three outings. Was idling back to launch area when the engine shut-down....couldn't get it restarted. Took boat back to mechanic (he's a muscle car wrench who has very little experience with boats). He began troubleshooting and found two problems, short in ignition switch and burn marks in the cap. Replaced both and got the boat running again but not well. Replaced rebuilt carb with a new 4160. Took to the water and was difficult to start. Once started, as I eased the throttle to higher rpms, it would only achieve a max rpm of 3600 and then began backfiring badly, almost to the point where the engine almost shuts down. My mechanic's plan is to try these things next: 1. pull and inspect all plugs for possible burns or non burnt plugs and water in cylinder/s from possible exhaust manifold leak. 2. Reverse the set-up on the electronic ignition (heard that works sometimes) 3. Reinstall the points/condenser and coil. Unfortunately, I cannot get any marine shop to look at the boat due to its age. It has 1650hrs on it without any problems. The boat has not been abused and has been maintained per the specs of PCM's owner's manual. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
------------- whross
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Replies:
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-26-2015 at 12:21am
Welcome William.Go straight to number 3,it's the only thing thats different since the day you proudly brought it home 29 years ago. I'm guessing it's the conversion that starts with a P and ends in a X which lately is a piece of excrement. The PCM owners manual has never said to remove the points for a conversion kit
------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport
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Posted By: WHROSS
Date Posted: August-26-2015 at 12:35am
will do....i'll let you know how it goes...thx!
------------- whross
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-26-2015 at 8:07am
WHROSS wrote:
My mechanic's plan is to try these things next: 2. Reverse the set-up on the electronic ignition (heard that works sometimes) 3. Reinstall the points/condenser and coil.
| Go with your mechanic! I didn't catch why the conversion was installed?
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow -
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/diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique
64 X55 Dunphy
Keep it original, Pete <
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Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: August-26-2015 at 8:30pm
Sounds like a vacuum leak to me. Did you replace the base gasket when changing carb?
Lots of guys have had problems with bad carb gaskets.
I have heard you can spray carb cleaner around base of carb to detect leak (it will change RPM if you spray on the leak).
------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin
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Posted By: Dreaming
Date Posted: August-26-2015 at 9:29pm
I might suggest that the timing could be off as well. If you put in a new dist, I wonder if the bolt that holds the dizzy in place may have loosened? this of course could explain your hard starting too, and could be remedied by the coil/distributer/points re-install.
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Posted By: WHROSS
Date Posted: August-26-2015 at 10:06pm
My mechanic recommended installing electronic ignition since the points were corroded when he removed them. If the reinstall of points and condenser work, lesson learned. thx for the guidance. I'll let you know if we have success.
------------- whross
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Posted By: WHROSS
Date Posted: August-26-2015 at 10:08pm
We did replace the gasket when we installed the new carb. thx.
------------- whross
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Posted By: WHROSS
Date Posted: August-26-2015 at 10:12pm
The dizzy and timing has been checked countless times thus far. He even checked the weights and springs in the dizzy and found nothing wrong....weights free of corrosion and springs not broken.
------------- whross
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Posted By: WHROSS
Date Posted: August-28-2015 at 11:41pm
Here's an update....good and bad. My wrench switched out the electronic ignition and flamethrower with points/condenser and original coil. The boat started and idled for ~10mins. When he loosened the distributor to time, the engine immediately stalled. He let the engine cool, tightened and restarted but still encountered the same problem when he loosened the dizzy. He tried to restart immediately but with no success. He did notice a popping sound each time the turned the key to the off position while trying to restart. He bypassed the ignition/dash by connecting a jumper from the positive terminal of the starter relay to the positive side of the coil. The boat restarted but shutdown again after another ~10mins while trying to time (loosened the dizzy and engine shutdown). So the question is, a problem with the dizzy or coil? My wrench is hoping to locate a coil at NAPA and try a new coil first.....if that doesn't work, sounds like a new dizzy. Has anyone run across a problem like this before? Do we seem to be on the right track? Any insight is much appreciated?
------------- whross
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Posted By: mamigacz
Date Posted: August-29-2015 at 10:04am
Just to be clear. You are saying the act of loosening the dizzy hold down bolt (no rotating of the distributor body), will cause the engine to stall?
I would try setting the initial timing while the engine is cranking (not running)
Pull all 7 wires off the spark plugs. (this will keep the engine from starting) Leave plug wire #1 connected to the 1# spark plug. Hook up the timing light (to #1 plug wire) Make sure the distributor is loose Have a friend crank the engine over Time the engine to 8 degree BTDC. while the engine is cranking
After this is done you can move on to troubleshooting other issues.
I just had another thought as to why it stalls when you loosen the bolt. The ignition relies on the distributor being grounded to the block. The condenser and points ground to the dizzy body. Is it possible the ground is lost after removing the bolt? An easy way to prove or disprove this is to run a jumper wire from the dizzy body to a good ground on the engine block.
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Posted By: WHROSS
Date Posted: August-29-2015 at 11:50am
Im not quite sure if the act of loosening the bolt caused the stall or a slight movement did. My mechanic said he loosened the bolt and moved the distributor maybe 1/16th on an inch and the engine stalled. Im forwarding your recommendation and we'll see how it goes. thanks!
------------- whross
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Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: August-29-2015 at 3:01pm
You might want to have him check to see if the dizzy shaft (at top end) has play. That can make the point gap change.
------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin
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Posted By: WHROSS
Date Posted: September-07-2015 at 12:21pm
ok....heres the latest....we're making progress but still not quite there. The ignition system was returned to original but was still problematic. The ignition switch was bypassed resulting in the same problem, loosen dizzy, move slightly and engine stalled. The dizzy was grounded with a separate wire to the block but still no success. Must be the dizzy right? Installed a new Mallory RH dizzy. We think so based on yesterday's test run. Test run results were mixed with good and bad. Started perfectly off the trailer; idled away from launch area for a couple of minutes well. When I eased the throttle down to get on plane, engine could only achieve 1600-1650rpms....tried a few more times but no success. Pulled back to neutral and engine stalled....restarted hard but when it restarted came out to the water great, eased the throttle up through the ranges. Top end rpm could only achieve (a very smooth running) 4000 with no misfires. Could this be attributed to the new 4160 linkage not properly set? Still had a problem with stalling after bringing back to idle. My mechanic was unable to go on the test run with me but we plan to do that today. I believe we are on the right track but still have a few issues to work out.
Any comments and recommendations are greatly appreciated!
------------- whross
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Posted By: mamigacz
Date Posted: September-07-2015 at 2:57pm
These weird symptoms of running good and then running poorly could be fuel delivery issue. I'm sure the coast guard wouldn't approve this, but you could run the boat off of gas can of fresh gas
disconnect the fuel line going into the fuel pump run a new 5 foot fuel hose from the inlet of the fuel pump to the gas can Run it and see if all your issues go away. If they do, possible problems could be:
water in the gas water in the filter/water separator contaminated filter debri in the gas tank clogged pick up filter
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Posted By: WHROSS
Date Posted: September-07-2015 at 5:07pm
Thanks.....we'll give that a try later today hopefully. The fuel system been completely redone with exception to the pick-up tube. If your suggestion works, my guess is the pick-up tube must be the problem. Also, we did install an in-line filter between the fuel pump and the carb. You can visibly see if fuel is getting to the carb via the filter. During the three outings the boat ran as it should, that filter was in place and filled with gas.
------------- whross
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Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: September-07-2015 at 5:16pm
With all of the ignition work, is it possible you have switched plug wires around? Easy to check.
Once you get the problem solved, strongly suggest to ditch the see thru inline filter & change the fuel line to hard metal tube between FP & carb. This is actually a USCG regulation.
------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-07-2015 at 6:25pm
WHROSS wrote:
we did install an in-line filter between the fuel pump and the carb. | William, What type of filter and how was it plumbed? How about some pictures?
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64 X55 Dunphy
Keep it original, Pete <
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-07-2015 at 8:01pm
8122pbrainard wrote:
WHROSS wrote:
we did install an in-line filter between the fuel pump and the carb. | William, What type of filter and how was it plumbed? How about some pictures? |
SNobsessed wrote:
strongly suggest to ditch the see thru inline filter & change the fuel line to hard metal tube between FP & carb. This is actually a USCG regulation. | William, As Chris and I suspect, your "mechanic" may be better at making bombs than working on engines. If he did hack the hard line, I suggest finding another mechanic and also not using the boat until a proper repair can be made. Post the pictures.
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/diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique
64 X55 Dunphy
Keep it original, Pete <
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Posted By: WHROSS
Date Posted: September-13-2015 at 10:37pm
Fuel line has been changed and the new dizzy has been installed. I appreciate everyone's input! Without your help, I would be still chasing this problem.
The boat runs perfectly now.....idles at 900 in neutral, 700 in gear and turned 4600rpms with solid holeshot and midrange throttle response.
Winter project will be upholstery. Any suggestions on where to to get material or have skins made?
------------- whross
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Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: September-13-2015 at 10:49pm
Glad you got it running.
Gary's Upholstery can match your vinyl if you send them a unfaded tail (from underneath the staple line, for example). You will still have to find someone to sew it.
If you want finished sewn skins, Christine's is the top supplier. They have CC original patterns.
------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.”
Ben Franklin
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-14-2015 at 10:11pm
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64 X55 Dunphy
Keep it original, Pete <
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Posted By: Faceplant
Date Posted: September-15-2015 at 12:39am
Just out of curiosity , why is an automotive soft fuel line so dangerous ? I mean , fuel isn't leaking or anything so just curious why this is such a major no no .
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Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: September-15-2015 at 12:45am
It's only dangerous on the high pressure side of the fuel pump.
It's because, if it did happen to leak, it can't just run out the bottom of the engine bay and onto the ground like in a car. It would collect in the bilge and cause explosive fumes.
Great to hear that the original poster is running strong!
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: September-15-2015 at 12:56am
I would suspect Jeff that since it's under pressure in a hot enclosed enviroment and easily damaged. What I don't understand is why you cannot use AN lines and fittings. Developed for Army and Navy aircraft if it's good enough for flight you'd think it would be good for boats
------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport
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Posted By: Faceplant
Date Posted: September-15-2015 at 2:22am
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-15-2015 at 7:03am
Gary S wrote:
What I don't understand is why you cannot use AN lines and fittings. | http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/08/us/las-vegas-british-airways-fire/" rel="nofollow - Maybe the AN system isn't the greatest?
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64 X55 Dunphy
Keep it original, Pete <
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: September-15-2015 at 9:40am
And you have insight that it was a hose failure that caused the whole incidence
------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport
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Posted By: Morfoot
Date Posted: September-15-2015 at 11:00am
Working in the commercial aviation industry I laugh at 99% of the articles written and especially live reports becuase quite frankly they haven't a clue how it actually works. Hollywood movies are my favorite thou. That being said the T-handle that's in the cockpit actually shuts off EVERYTHING!!!! Those shut off valves are in the pylon (structure hold the engine on the wing) or in the wing root itself. However the main fuel line is probably at least 3" in diameter and running up the side of the engine so there are a few gallons of top grade kerosine sitting there. Could be anything at this point. Fuel is used to cool the oil thru a heat exchanger, fuel is used as hydraulics to open and close some valves and to actuate the varible guidevanes inside the engine to increase engine efficiency. The Feds will find out what happened. They are good at that sorta thing. I'm sure the wrench turners who had worked on that engine are sweating a little bit. Records have already been pulled and they are digging to find out what happenend.
------------- "Morfoot; He can ski. He can wakeboard.He can cook chicken.He can create his own self-named beverage, & can also apparently fly. A man of many talents."72 Mustang "Kermit",88 SN Miss Scarlett, 99 SN "Sherman"
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Posted By: WHROSS
Date Posted: September-20-2015 at 10:22pm
If i didn't have bad luck, I'd have no luck at all......After five great days on the water, today ended with another disappointment. I lost reverse on the transmission. Forward works perfectly but when you move the lever to reverse, no engagement. I removed the shifter cable and operated it manually with the same result. After reviewing my owner's manual, it sounds like i have a reverse clutch problem. The velvet drive is original, regular changes to transmission fluid as recommended by the Borg Warner. Any suggestions on how I should approach this issue? Fix, rebuild or scrap and buy new? thanks in advance for your suggestions..... Bill
------------- whross
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-21-2015 at 6:51am
Bill, Some of our members have had success with rebuilding themselves and others haven't. There are some idiosyncrasies of a rebuild that are not in the manual like pump tolerances. Here's a comment from the FAQ thread.
.
8122pbrainard wrote:
Personally, I'd ship the trans up to http://fantasticfinishmarine.net/" rel="nofollow - Fantastic Finish Marine . They aren't as simple as just throwing a clutch pack and seal kit in for a rebuild.
One of our top members here Eric used to own FFM. He's gone onto other things and has sold FFM to his right hand man Vince. Eric taught Vince everything he knows about marine trans's. Eric has rebuilt/fixed them when other "pros" have failed. I remember one thread where the "pro" tried twice!!! |
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64 X55 Dunphy
Keep it original, Pete <
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Posted By: WHROSS
Date Posted: September-21-2015 at 10:16pm
thanks Peter.....I spoke to Vince today. He was very patient and explained the process. i'm impressed. I'm checking with local boat mechanics to see if anyone is willing to remove and install the tranny. If not, I may be hauling it to Medina OH. thanks again!
------------- whross
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