No spark=No start, need to winterize!
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37539
Printed Date: October-07-2024 at 2:24pm
Topic: No spark=No start, need to winterize!
Posted By: matcbr
Subject: No spark=No start, need to winterize!
Date Posted: October-18-2015 at 3:41pm
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Need to winterize but no spark. Hit some shallows and the boat stalled, now it only turns over but won't start. Had the boat for a year, 2nd owner really good condition 700 hours. It was converted to electronic ignition. Had a mechanic look at it today and couldn't fix, talk to two more mechanics and got two different opinions. Would appreciate any input that can point me in the right direction. Temp is dropping in new england and i need to winterize. Thanks  1981 Ski Nautique Correct craft |
Replies:
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-18-2015 at 4:53pm
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Why do you have to start it for winterizing? Drain, pour in the antifreeze, fog via the spark plug holes and put it to bed. Then over winter it will give you plenty of time to pull the EI conversion and go back to a reliable set of points.What are the other mechanics telling you? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: matcbr
Date Posted: October-18-2015 at 4:59pm
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Thanks for the reply. Its how i did it last year, very quick and easy. I have no idea how to properly drain all the water and get the antifreeze in without starting. If you have the details on that i would love to hear them. I would rather get it running in the spring anyway. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-18-2015 at 5:08pm
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Matt, Check out the sites reference section under manuals. There's a PCM manual with some pretty decent lay up instructions. Basically there's 5 drains. One on each side of the block, one on each exhaust manifold and then the last is on the J tube in the front of the engine. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: October-18-2015 at 7:55pm
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Don't forget to pull the hose off the trans cooler & also drain the strainer. Changing oil is also a good idea, it will just come out slow cold. Have a beer & come back later! ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: matcbr
Date Posted: October-18-2015 at 8:12pm
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Found the lay up instructions, seems easy enough. I don't think i have a tranny cooler SNobsessed. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-18-2015 at 8:53pm
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Matt, Follow the thru hull water pick up hose to the raw water pump. In that hose you will find a cooler with the water hose connected to each end and then 2 oil line between it and the trans. Yes, as Chris mentioned, remove the lower water hose to drain it. The lay up instructions say to remove a drain plug in the cooler but some have damaged the cooler shell trying. The shell is a very thin copper. It's easier to remove the hose. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: matcbr
Date Posted: October-19-2015 at 4:22pm
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Thanks guys for all the help. The only problem i see with following the lay up instructions is that the boat was always kept in warm storage and those plugs have never been removed. I would really like to get it started if anyone knows what would cause it to lose spark, coil, pick up coil, rotor or something else. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-19-2015 at 4:25pm
The Ei conversion would be the first thing I'd look at. Yes, what did the other mechanics say?
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
8122pbrainard wrote:Posted By: matcbr
Date Posted: October-19-2015 at 8:01pm
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First one said the coil was good but didn't know what the problem was. Second said its probably the pick up coil. I talk to the third one over the phone said its the ECM, which i don't know if that boat even has one. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-19-2015 at 8:38pm
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Matt, An 81 will not have an ECM. Sounds like the mechanics are guessing. Did any of them actually look at the boat or have you just been verbally asking them questions? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: matcbr
Date Posted: October-19-2015 at 9:06pm
| Its an 81 correct craft with PCM 302 i believe. The mechanic that said ECM was over the phone. |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 12:29am
Pete - That's OUR job! ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 4:40am
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Since it happened by hitting the shallows I suspect you hit mud or bottom with the prop stalling the engine? And now it won't run? Check to make sure your key switch still works. Maybe a wire got pulled off or the switch failed with the jolt. Verify your engine is getting spark at the spark plugs. If no spark start with the start circuit at the key and work your way back to the engine. Most likely you lost power when something was bounced hitting the shallows. Remember there are two power wires that make the engine run leaving your key switch. One is the start circuit and one is the run circuit, they both need 12 V. Your coil or coil pak will need 12V while you are cranking the engine. and the key is in the start position. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 9:15am
Does this PCM year utilize a ballast resistor by pass during cranking? If it does, then the coil should be getting power from the start relay and not the key switch. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: matcbr
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 10:43am
| The resistors are still mounted but were disconnected when the EI was installed. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 11:07am
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Matt, What tests have you done with the VOM (volt Ohm meter)? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: matcbr
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 1:33pm
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I am doing some test myself now. I am getting 12v at the + and - side of the coil when its grounded and turning the engine over. But not getting any voltage when checking just the -+ on the coil. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 1:38pm
| - side of cool should not have 12v on it continuously when cranking- if it does, nothing is triggering the coil to fire (points/module aren't functioning). |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 1:47pm
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: matcbr
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 2:09pm
| I am not gonna be able to lay up by removing the plugs they are way too hard and i can do more damage. I am gonna have to get it started anyway so i'd rather do it now and have an easy lay up and be ready to go in the spring. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 3:04pm
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Matt, You mentioned before that the plugs have never been removed and then above you mention they are "way too hard". Are you thinking they will be hard to unscrew or hard to get to with a socket? Sooner or later they are going to have to come out. It still is an option and may be easier than swapping back to a point set. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 4:02pm
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If you hit the stuck plug with a torch and heat it, then touch it with wax it will draw wax into the threads and after it cools you will be able to remove it. Very similar to soldering copper pipe. Touch the wax and watch it draw in. Production Engine Rebuild shops have been using this technique for years to remove drain plugs from blocks, it works. |
Posted By: matcbr
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 4:09pm
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Thanks for the help guys. As i wasn't getting anywhere with the EI i decided to try and remove the drain plugs. The two manifold ones were as hard as i thought they would be but was able to get them off with a ratchet and small pipe for added torque. The block ones were very easy and on the front U pipe i just cut the hoses. Should i convert back to points or leave it as EI. If points are better or more reliable why do people convert to EI in the first place ? |
Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 5:45pm
Do not listen to Pete's rants on this, EI is better. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1143" rel="nofollow - Mi Bowt |
Posted By: matcbr
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 5:47pm
LOL. Don't see why people would go to EI if it wasn't. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 6:21pm
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I'm convinced people convert to EI because they refuse to learn how to adjust points properly. It's not hard or time consuming. If EI were better you wouldn't be facing a $100 module replacement when you lose spark- you'd just need a piece of sandpaper and worst case, a $20 tune up kit. Short of a performance build where improved advance curves and hotter spark are advantageous, electronic ignitions are not beneficial IMHO. I do not care for the conversion kits. Good work on getting the drains out. It's the only foolproof way to make sure your engine has sufficient freeze protection anyways! |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 6:42pm
Matt, Don't listen to CQ's rants on this, points don't have the reputation of failure like the EI conversions do. Tim sums it up very well: QUOTE=TRBenj] I'm convinced people convert to EI because they refuse to learn how to adjust points properly. It's not hard or time consuming. If EI were better you wouldn't be facing a $100 module replacement when you lose spark- you'd just need a piece of sandpaper and worst case, a $20 tune up kit. Short of a performance build where improved advance curves and hotter spark are advantageous, electronic ignitions are not beneficial IMHO. I do not care for the conversion kits. [/QUOTE] Thank you Tim. BTW, I'd trust you under the dog house rather than Chris any day!   ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: matcbr
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 6:45pm
Whats the best place to buy a point ignition and do i need part # or just make model and year? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 6:51pm
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Matt, See if you can try this test. Pull a spark plug and remove it's wire from the distributor. Remove the main wire off the middle of the distributor and plug the spark plug into it. Ground the plug. (a jumper with alligator clips works best). Turn the ignition switch to run and confirm you have 12 volts nominal to the + on the coil. (don't leave it turned on for long periods of time) Remove the - wire off the coil that runs to the distributor and then using another jumper, ground the - side of the coil. When you remove the - jumper, you should get spark at the plug. Report back. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: matcbr
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 6:59pm
Ok will try first thing tomorrow. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 7:27pm
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Unfortunately, it is usually difficult to revert back to points... The conversion kits tend to come with their own baseplates and the points-specific plate tends to get thrown away. You can't mount the points and condensor without one. I am unaware of a source for the points plate (but would love to know if one exists). To determine the parts you need in any case, the year of the boat and engine (marinizer) are a good start. Confirming the manufacturer and style of distributor would be helpful too. Pictures go a long ways. |
Posted By: matcbr
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 7:31pm
I think thats the exact IE kit i have. Just need to find the coil now. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 7:41pm
Why the coil. Did you confirm it's bad? The test I outlined will confirm if the coil is bad or not but, from the voltage tests you got, I sure feel it's the unreliable EI conversion!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: matcbr
Date Posted: October-20-2015 at 7:44pm
I will test it first, just looking for what type of coil i would have to order if it is bad. |