excel/barefoot engine rebuild rotation
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38273
Printed Date: October-07-2024 at 12:33pm
Topic: excel/barefoot engine rebuild rotation
Posted By: dave12gauge
Subject: excel/barefoot engine rebuild rotation
Date Posted: March-16-2016 at 3:16am
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I have a 1991 excel with the Chevy Big Block 454. Im thinking about rebuilding it. My engine plate reads: Model PRK-WR-R10T serial 311747 Firing order 1846572. line on bottom T04031XR. The Velvet Drive is Model 10-18-002 ratio 1:1 serial no. 16274. So, I will be pulling engine, trans, and vee drive at the same time. Thinking about building the engine with maybe 50 extra HP. Should I keep the reverse rotation or change it to standard? I can have the velvet drive indexed. Looking at buying a new prop no matter what I end up doing. Is it worth the hassle of rebuilding/buying a standard rotation engine? Is there anything I’m gaining beside a more common/ more selection of props? I’m I missing any major pros or cons (I have looked through the forum, but they are all direct drive). I'm still new to inboard boats. Thank you in advance for the help and this great forum. Looked up many questions I had for my new, gently aging boat. |
Replies:
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: March-16-2016 at 5:59am
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18436572 Has been normal rotation for Chevy's since 1955. their first v-8 ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-16-2016 at 11:50am
| http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15594&title=bbc-hp-upgrade" rel="nofollow - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=15594&title=bbc-hp-upgrade |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: March-16-2016 at 12:13pm
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What is the immediate need to pull the entire drivetrain? Really certain the lower end is in need of rebuild? Current Hrs? Else just rework the top end, block in-place. <edit> (Oh, might be hard to get the cam out) ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: March-16-2016 at 3:48pm
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Hi Dave The firing order you have given (18436572) is for a normal (automotive) rotation 454 like Duane pointed out Reverse rotation is 12756348. If you look at your distributor cap, and work your way around CLOCKWISE you can figure out your firing order, then you'll know what the rotation is. the distributor turns clockwise.whether it's normal or reverse rotation so do yourself a favor and check that firing order. there's been plenty of confusion on v drive 454 excel/BFN's. before.  KenO |
Posted By: dave12gauge
Date Posted: March-16-2016 at 5:14pm
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The story... Bought boat May 2014 from an owners best friend (sad story owner died). Told me that the impeller was changed summer of 13. I was planning on changing it anyways. On its madian voyage for me, my second pass I did a tantrum, landed with my knee locked, popped the femur out of the hip socket. Called wife on the way to hospital and she asked "were still going on our houseboat trip in 3 weeks, right?". So I didn't get around to changing the impeller. On the trip, when my wife was driving the impeller disintegrated. Motor got HOT. Changed impeller, at times still getting hot. Pieces floating through motor and getting jammed in the small bypass hose going from intake manifold to circulation pump. (took awhile to figure out) Ran boat rest of summer, but not as much as I wanted to. May 2015 head gasket blew between cylinder 4 & 6. Took off both heads and the surfaced them. Machinist said that the other head was more warped then the head that had the blown gasket. Got it back together 2 days before our trip. Ran rest of summer no issues, I was babying it. Second to last trip of the year I went full throttle (4200-4300rpm) for a few minutes 49MPH Acme #380 prop 13.5x17 VR1 1/8. Then some noise out of the engine, maybe valves floating? Took back to the lake and it did run like normal. I will confirm Rotation of engine today. Oil pressure is lower than when I bought the boat. After the head were surfaced and tanked, I was blowing out the water passages with an air compressor and still was getting pieces of impeller. Who knows whats still floating in my engine. About 900 hours. When checking for blown head gasket the compression were all between 110 and 115. I have another houseboat trip, I will have the only boat. Should I trust this engine? |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-16-2016 at 5:54pm
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Ononewheel's old boat? The lower oil pressure is concerning. Are you running the proper amount, weight and type of oil? What oil pressure do you see now? Any other electrical system changes that may cause the gauge to read differently? Any knocking or other scary sounds coming from the bottom end? I would not put a LH prop on that boat personally, I'd keep the engine RH if you decide to rebuild. Parts are available to do this. You cannot take the firing order off the the intake manifold casting, that does not mean anything. The proper way to verify it is per above. The R in the 2nd position of your engine id number indicates it's a righty (rev rotation), which is consistent with other v-drive excels. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-16-2016 at 6:26pm
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TRBenj wrote:Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-16-2016 at 6:44pm
| Department of Redundancy Department? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-16-2016 at 6:45pm
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I certainly agree with keeping the prop rotation original. There are plenty of RH wheels that are available for that hull/engine combo. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: dave12gauge
Date Posted: March-16-2016 at 11:18pm
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I'll kept the right hand prop. When I buy a new prop I'll have a spare. Checked engine multiple times. It's reverse rotation despite the engine tag saying differently. I even took a video if no one believes me. Haha. Looking at the harmonic balancer it's turning counter clockwise. I've number the distributor and the firing order is 1,2,756348 First years oil was 10w40 topped off with 20w50. . After the head gasket I used 20w50 and I may have throw in some lucus. As far as noises coming from the bottom end I can't hear anything when the lid is closed. Tried cracking the lid once or twice and I really could hear anything. I don't think any electrical issues. Maybe gauge going out. I'll check ononeswheel. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-17-2016 at 1:00am
Your engine tag says reverse rotation
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Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: March-17-2016 at 1:26am
Sometimes, folks get a little confused at the "Standard" vs. "Reverse Rotation" in the marine industry. A "Standard" Rotation in the marine industry is a "Reverse Rotation" in the automotive industry. Automotive industry views the engine rotation from the front of the vehicle -- or from the harmonic balancer side looking toward the bell housing. Marine industry views the engine rotation from the bell housing side looking toward the harmonic balancer. If you are viewing your engine from the harmonic balancer end, a counter-clockwise engine is a REVERSE Rotation marine engine. JQ ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: dave12gauge
Date Posted: March-17-2016 at 2:57am
| I checked my engine either last year or the year before and checked the tag on one of the post here. I knew it was reverse rotation. One of the comments above through me for a loop. It is interesting that the model number says its reverse but on the same same tag it says the firing order is 1846572 which is standard. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: March-17-2016 at 8:43am
 Here's a picture of a rev rotation 454 engine tag that belongs to Air 206 that he posted a couple years ago It says reverse rotation and it also has the reverse rotation firing order on the tag. So for Hollywood what Dave is saying is that his tag says reverse rotation but has a normal firing order printed on the tag. If Dave puts up a picture of his, it will explain things maybe.. Sound like a screwed up tag to me. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-17-2016 at 8:54am
Or as Tim mentioned, the firing order is not off the tag?
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-17-2016 at 9:01am
The first half of this post is wrong. Automotive and marine are NOT different when stating "standard rotation" vs "reverse rotation". They DO differ in regards to LH vs RH convention as they use a different reference point. Standard rotation = "automotive RH" = "marine LH" <-- referred to as LH on this site Reverse rotation = "automotive LH" = "marine RH" <-- referred to as RH on this site. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: March-17-2016 at 9:08am
Pete Read all the words in this quote from Dave especially the part about "on the same tag" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-17-2016 at 9:21am
Ken, I did read all the words very carefully and did see all the mentioning of the tag!  This sure is confusing! What's really odd is the tag model # and firing order not matching and the reason I thought like Tim that David is reading the firing order on the intake?  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: IAughtNaut
Date Posted: March-17-2016 at 10:16am
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maybe it's a bi-curious rotation. most of the time it spins right, but after a few tequilas it can be talked into going left ------------- bring the ruckus http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=5347" rel="nofollow - 2000 Pro Air |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: March-17-2016 at 10:56am
 ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: March-17-2016 at 11:13am
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That Princess Bride meme almost made me spit out my drink. I even read it in Enigo's accent. Lol. ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-17-2016 at 11:18am
The alcohol is our gas over here does have a tendency to goof up the "bi-curious" engine!!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: velde99
Date Posted: March-17-2016 at 3:21pm
| Dave- sent a pm |
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: March-17-2016 at 7:11pm
Thanks Tim for clarifying...My brain was in Reverse Rotation mode when I typed the post above.  When viewed from the SAME perspective -- a Left-Hand or standard rotation marine engine rotates in the same direction as a standard rotation automotive engine. When looking at the 351 Windsor engine in your Ford Mustang, the engine turns clockwise. When sitting in the observer seat in your Ski Nautique and looking at the 351 Windsor PCM engine, the Left-Hand / Standard Rotation engine also turns clockwise. JQ ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: dave12gauge
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 4:33am
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bi-curious rotation. I am on the left coast and we have plenty of screws loose, mostly in people's heads. Commufornia. This engine also has a "cunuter" valve and a muffler bearing. Yup, both. Plan is to pull motor tomorrow. Noise I heard at high RPM is not sitting well with my confidence factor. Plus just think of all the money I'm going to save not having to top off with oil every other pass. Can't add picture of engine tag but its defiantly misprinted. Looking around on the site, it did look like the ford engine in this boat spun both standard and reverse rotation. Besides rebuilding the starter, what are the specific negatives for a vee drive boat to have a standard rotation engine and I'll keep the RH prop? Probably going to reseal and check transmission (velvet drive 72C) for $500. Reason for asking is that the cam may be custom ground and will take a bit longer for me to get the engine back, plus I haven't got a cost yet. My only thinking is that the engine and prop will be turing in the same direction causing the torque to go to starboard and slightly tilt the boat. This is just a family boat and me and my 8 year old are far from being a professional wakeboarder. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 6:41am
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David, I suggest keeping the engine rotation and RH prop as is. Yes, changing rotation affects the rotational torque on the hull. Don't kiss the cam goodbye yet. Chances are that it still may be good. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 10:42am
This is not possible. The transmission can be indexed to spin either way but it can NOT reverse the rotation of the engine (velvets cannot be spun full power in reverse). Engine and transmission rotation must match. LH prop would be the biggest downside of a LH engine. It could be done but it's not just a starter (and you cannot simply "rebuild" it). Cam and distributor change too. |
Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 11:51am
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Maybe you guys can learnt me sumthing here about the BBC's and the V-Drives CC used. Beginning In 89' the 1:23 trans used in the DD boats allowed counter rotation, hence left motor righty prop. At what point were the V-Drives able to counter rotate, lefty motor righty prop? Until 89' all BBC's were right rotation? Thought I recall the special HO BBC offering was a lefty? True or False? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1143" rel="nofollow - Mi Bowt |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 12:11pm
| A 1:1 V drive reverses the rotation, but that is off set by the bacerds installation of the engine which also reverses the rotation. Whatever the output is at the transmission,( RH or LH) should be the same for the prop when goes through the 1:1 v drive. Looking at the trans from the back of it as compared to looking at the prop from the rear. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 12:13pm
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Where is Karras??? I'm no v-drive expert but I'm not following Riley. v-drive boats still have transmissions The 89-94 PCM BBCs remained RH. Yes, the 454 HOs were LH but those only appeared in the mid 80s. The small block Ford powered Excels were LH with reduction/reversing transmissions and RH props. (this is contrary to what Riley is saying?). If he's right the LH fords had NON-reversing transmissions and let the v-drive unit do that. This is where I don't believe Riley is correct. I'm not sure the PCM reduction/reversing trans was able to fit in the Excel OR that PCM wasn't buildind LH big blocks, but probably the latter. |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 12:16pm
| Were the 454 HO boats LH props or did they have a reduction transmission? |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 12:22pm
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RH engine and RH prop I do know that. I thought the {RH} big blocks just had 1:1 velvet drives and then reduction in the V on the order of 1.2-1.5. Seems like the [LH] Fords then would have the regular old reduction/reversing trans as the DDs and then a different v-drive, possibly not reducing. |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 12:47pm
| I'm only aware of BFN's running 1:1 transmissions with RH rotation engines and props. You must be talking about the newer VDrive BFNs? I never knew the HO engines were LH, but if they were in a DD, they must have had a reduction transmission? |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 12:54pm
Bruce you are all over the map.
Uh yes, this whole thread is about the v-drive BFN (Excel) isn't it?
No. 454 HO = LH 425hp, available in early-mid 80's 2001 Ski Nautiques. 1:1 velvet drive, LH prop. GottaSki has some first hand experience with them. |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 1:17pm
| Gotcha. You said mid 80's HOs were LH so I was thinking there were some LH BFNs out there that came from CC that way and I had never heard of that. I'll get back to work... |
Posted By: Air206
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 1:18pm
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Karras was travelin' - enjoying the Midwest....... but you don't need the Excel boys on this post. Hollywood's got it covered. I thought I saw Rod sent a PM (he's torn into these 454 Excels and prolly will help him with parts too). The Excel 454s are counter rotation firing with standard rotation camshafts (don't ask me how I know - BTW, thanks to Performance Distributors for incredible return service! ) ------------- https://tinyurl.com/y6t5e3bu" rel="nofollow - 04 Air206 http://tinyurl.com/9urzgls" rel="nofollow - 91 Barefoot 78 SkiTiq |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 1:18pm
| I haven't seen or heard of any 454 HOs after 1986. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 1:21pm
| Pretty sure all the 330hp 454s were gear-to-gear crank-cam instead of the typical chain drive setup. So, a RH crank turns an LH cam with an RH firing order. Pretty unique... |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 1:26pm
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I have a RH 351w out of a '91 Excel so some of the above info is incorrect. Not sure if there was a change along the excels run where LH small blocks were used to turn RH props (like the super sport that followed). I can think of a few reasons why you wouldn't want a reduction trans in front of a v-drive, space and strength being big ones- you'd have to build a stronger v-drive box of it had a torque multiplier in front of it. Probably why all ski boat v-drives have 1:1 trans and put all the reduction in the v-drive box. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 1:29pm
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Ah Tim, that's just like standards . RH engine 1:1 PCM and RH prop. Nothing new there, simply there's also a v-drive along for the ride. Seems like the 454 [DD BFNs + Excels] get velvet drives throughout their run. I haven't seen any documentation otherwise. 240 hp Excel has to be quite the dog! |
Posted By: dave12gauge
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 1:33pm
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I thought I (the shop for $500, I'm planning on resealing it anyways and he is going to check the clutches) could rebuild the Velvet drive model 10-18-002 ratio 1:1 also know as the 72c, so that full power would match a rebuilt standard rotation engine? Does anybody know how much rotation torque of a Chevy 454 BBC would cause to the hull? If its major than I will build the engine like it came from the factory (reverse rotation). But if you guys say maybe 3% "worse" than maybe I would build the engine standard rotation. I will continue to run the stock rotation prop which is a RH prop. My distributor would remain because BBC turn the cam in the same direction in a standard or reverse engine. Alternator, circulation pump, and water pump don't care which way they turn. So I think its only the starter that would need to get rebuilt. My head is spinning, not sure which way though, standard, reverse, automotive RH, automotive LH, marine backwards, I know upside-down. When I'm pulling the motor today, I hope I still remember "lefty loosy, righty tighty". |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 1:33pm
As far as I've been able to tell, this set up was common to all rev rotation chevies with flat tappet cams from the early 70's thru mid 90's. Possibly more. Not unique to big blocks or Pcm's. I would be careful with terminology as well... Calling them a "LH cam" is a bit misleading as the snout and FO are unique to a RH engine. It's still a reverse rotation cam in that it's made for reverse rotation engines. "Standard rotation reverse fire" is the correct term. LH used the standard chain timing sets. Reason for the HO's being LH only was the lack of availability on RH roller cams. Sorry for the detour. |
Posted By: Air206
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 1:35pm
It is - drives and accelerates like a dump truck...... the 351HO is where it's at for Excels. Best weight / power ratios. ......but when I dream at night, it's of 6 Liters in Excels....  ------------- https://tinyurl.com/y6t5e3bu" rel="nofollow - 04 Air206 http://tinyurl.com/9urzgls" rel="nofollow - 91 Barefoot 78 SkiTiq |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 1:42pm
Tim's comment on "full power reverse" was technically correct but didn't quite answer your question earlier. You just have to index the pump for which direction is forward. So yes, a velvet drive can be setup for LH or RH easily. To Tim's point, don't go WOT in reverse. You'll burn up the trans.
With your transmission and v-drive you cannot rebuild your engine to LH and use a RH prop. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-18-2016 at 2:15pm
So there are RH 351 HOs. Randy has one (I removed his name from my post above) as well as TX Foilhead. Safe to say all Excels got RH engines and 1:1 velvet drives.
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Posted By: dave12gauge
Date Posted: March-19-2016 at 3:09am
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[/quote] With your transmission and v-drive you cannot rebuild your engine to LH and use a RH prop. [/QUOTE] Duh, now I get it. Will build engine correctly. Just to be clear, the cam is/is not an off the shelf part? Its a normal rotation- reverse firing order? |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-21-2016 at 11:43am
| Correct. For what you're doing, save some money and reuse the stock cam. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: March-21-2016 at 11:50am
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some older CCF cam talk http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24350&title=rh-454" rel="nofollow - RH 454 http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8246" rel="nofollow - 454 Rev Rpt/ Camshaft good summary here http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16845" rel="nofollow - BBC Reverse Rotation Cams |