Holley 4160 bowl screws stuck
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Boat Maintenance
Forum Discription: Discuss maintenance of your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38399
Printed Date: November-16-2024 at 8:49pm
Topic: Holley 4160 bowl screws stuck
Posted By: wolfman
Subject: Holley 4160 bowl screws stuck
Date Posted: April-10-2016 at 11:42am
This carb is running good. I would like to make sure the primary bowl is tight so I don't get any leaks. I am trying to replace the gasket and screws since this sat for so many years. The last screw is stuck real good and I'm thinking about cutting the head off. Problem is you can see in the pic the other bottom screw looks different than the rest. Maybe this was modified in the past? Could this cause a problem getting the underlying spring screws out. I could just leave it alone, my concern is safety. Any advice appreciated. Is the small screw in the pic original? I already did the secondaries and they were all the longer type screws. Thanks.
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Replies:
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-10-2016 at 12:24pm
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Jeff, Have you tried an impact on it? Even though the Phillips head looks pretty bad, it may work. If not, then yes, cut the head off. Is that carb off your 78? Yes, it looks like someone's been hacking since I notice the fuel inlet is a hose barb and not the USCG required flare fitting used to connect a steel fuel line from the pump. You mention you are concerned about safety but even if you weren't, it needs to be addressed! Is the carb marine? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: wolfman
Date Posted: April-10-2016 at 1:07pm
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Peter, I will try the impact and cut it off if I have too. The carb is off the 78 Tique and is marine, it has the j tubes and stuff. I just needed the reassurance to address this. I will also get the steel line and a flare fitting.  I have been holding off all winter and am excited to get this done without messing up this nice carb. It runs excellent after replacing the vacuum secondary actuator and accelerator pump spring and diaphragm. By the end of last season we had the boat running almost scary fast(43 mph on not the best water). Unfortunately for my wallet we are about to deal with the fact it came with no front seats or frames even. |
Posted By: LaurelLakeSkier
Date Posted: April-10-2016 at 1:12pm
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All of the bolts that hold the bowls on the carb body should be the long ones like the two you have laying in the photo. I don't think that the short phillips head screw that is laying next to the bolts and the one that is (I assume is stuck) on the right/lower side of float bowl, have any place on that carburetor. The bolts need to run all the way through the carb, metering block and into the carb body. The two phillips head screws shown in the picture couldn't have been doing anything other than plugging the holes that the bolts should go through. If you're putting things back together, I'd suggest using these http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-108-98-10" rel="nofollow - NYLON WASHERS under the bolts. They will allow you to remove the bolts easily in the future and will re-seal rather than break apart like the fiber type that is usually used. If you plan on doing any work/ cleaning of the carb, using the "blue" reusable gaskets is worthwhile as well. You can find those http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-108-200" rel="nofollow - HERE As Pete mentioned, you should also look at a regulation fuel line to replace the rubber hose that appears to be connecting the carb to your fuel pump. ------------- The world is full of youth—what we need is a fountain of smart! |
Posted By: wolfman
Date Posted: April-10-2016 at 1:31pm
| The small screws feel like they engage the springs and ....that is where the logic fell apart for me too. There's no way this is right. I will take it apart and thanks for the links. I think those are the gaskets I have(skidim) but I will go for the nice nylon washers. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-10-2016 at 1:47pm
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Those Phillips headed ones look just like the the ones I had on 3 older Holley's, they thread into a spring which is held in on the other end by a stud. The newer style seems so much easier to work with and when used with the nylon gaskets it's even better. Use the impact by hand first if the bit still fits, sometimes a good bit and a better grip than using a screwdriver will work. Not being at mine to check,many do use 2 different lengths of screws. I'm thinking the primary side uses the longer because of the metering plate that holds the power valve is quite thick. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: LaurelLakeSkier
Date Posted: April-10-2016 at 2:47pm
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Gary is right in that the primary side needs a longer reach to get through a thicker metering block. The secondary side of the stock carb has a fixed metering block (no jet adjustment possible) and is a bit thinner than the primary side. It is possible to replace the fixed metering block on the secondary side with one that allows for replacing the jets but that's another topic. All of the 4160 carbs that I've worked have had the bolts run all the way through and I haven't seen this older type (as Gary termed them). If you can swap out the screws/spring/studs, the lower bolts work well for winterization—I just pull one of them out on each bowl to drain the carb. This seems to help from getting them gummed up over the off-season. ------------- The world is full of youth—what we need is a fountain of smart! |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: April-10-2016 at 4:52pm
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I would NOT even attempt to cut the head off. Only if it was the very last option. As mentioned above a new phillips bit and some impact, maybe get some acetone/atf in on the screw for a day or two. And get and follow the torque specs from Holley. Over torquing could be the reason for the old style spring loaded bowl screws. If you do wind-up with only the last option. Drill the head off, don't cut it off. |
Posted By: wolfman
Date Posted: April-10-2016 at 5:41pm
I was able to cut a slot for a flathead in the screw and remove it. Glad I did because it was full of debris in there. The springs on studs then had to be unscrewed for the metering plate to come off. Amazingly I grabbed the springs with a pliers and they both screwed out ok. Either this is original setup or the heads broke off and someone came up with these screws to make it work. I will now be installing the new long bolts and am going to have to order that gasket kit because I don't have the metering plate gasket. A good cleaning and I should be good to go.  
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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-10-2016 at 5:54pm
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Make sure you blow out all the passages with compressed air and carb cleaner. Those bolts were used for a while. Good idea to replace them with the current style. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-10-2016 at 6:07pm
OK , I need to do some learnin' here. Can anyone show me where in the USCG regs it says that you need a metal fuel line between the fuel pump and the carburetor. ? The way I read it USCG type A1-15 is perfectly acceptable Here are a couple of links to USCG stuff, good reading. http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/AssetManager/ABYC.1002.01.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/AssetManager/ABYC.1002.01.pdf https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title33-vol2/pdf/CFR-2011-title33-vol2-sec183-558.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title33-vol2/pdf/CFR-2011-title33-vol2-sec183-558.pdf |
8122pbrainard wrote:Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: April-10-2016 at 7:29pm
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183.558 Hoses and connections. (a) Each hose used between the fuel pump and the carburetor must be "USCG Type A1" hose* I'm with you on this one Ken. I have been reading up on this also as I am getting ready to order my fuel system components and was leaning toward using hose rather than solid line. I thought maybe I missed seeing the part that states you have to use solid line to be compliant. ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-10-2016 at 7:39pm
Read farther. Yes, W1-15 can be used but it's the termination that's important. Steel line with flared ends is a no brainer for me. I'd sure trust it way beyond a rubber hose. I'd hate to see a fuel pump squirting gas all over. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-10-2016 at 8:49pm
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https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title33-vol2/pdf/CFR-2011-title33-vol2-sec183-558.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2011-title33-vol2/pdf/CFR-2011-title33-vol2-sec183-558.pdf Pete You must have forgot to read the second link so here it is again. Pay special attention to section 183.560 on page 950.or you can continue to the same section of the first link and they even give examples After that you can give people your OPINION on what's best instead of a misleading answer on what's legal. KenO |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-10-2016 at 10:29pm
Ken, I have read them and then again today. I trust the actual government regulation that has a statement "(d) Not depend solely on the spring tension of the clamp for compressive force" rather than the vague publication by the .American Boat & Yacht Council, ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-10-2016 at 10:58pm
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KenO[/QUOTE] Ken, I have read them and then again today. I trust the actual government regulation that has a statement "(d) Not depend solely on the spring tension of the clamp for compressive force" rather than the vague publication by the .American Boat & Yacht Council, [/QUOTE] Nothing vague about it. They even show pictures of what you can and can't use. Can't use the little spring type clamps that depend only on the springs pressure I guess you know more than the USCG and the ABYC. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-10-2016 at 11:10pm
Ken, I'm sorry you feel that way. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-10-2016 at 11:48pm
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Pete's big enough to fight his own battles but I must add that I think this regulation has been changed recently. Being in the Key's there is more law enforcement afloat than anywhere I have ever been. I wanted to have the Coast Guard Auxiliary do a boat inspection so I could get the decal saying I'm in compliance since if there are 2 boats out and one has the sticker,it's the one that doesn't that will get singled out. Anyway I had looked up the regs sometime around October when I was getting things together to do a carb and manifold change. At the time it said hard line or a coast guard approved flex hose. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-11-2016 at 12:42am
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Well Gary Since you're in the Keys, it shouldn't be too hard to find somebody from the Coast Guard to provide you with the latest info. Then you can post a copy of it here, for everyone's benefit I'll even thank you in advance KenO |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-11-2016 at 1:01am
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I'm pretty much done down here for the season Ken I have to take it out in a week and put everything away. But I will next fall because I do want it checked out. While you can never be too safe when it comes to this I do wonder how the CG came up with the spec's. I'm running an Aeroquip AN hose assembly on my Mustang. Developed for army navy aircraft it was not approved before. Maybe now it is ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: JPASS
Date Posted: April-11-2016 at 8:39am
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So I checked around the interwebs and found http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/AssetManager/ABYC.1002.01.pdf" rel="nofollow - this Starting at page 59 I believe, you can find info on fuel lines. Here are some screen grabs regarding fuel lines:    I believe this PDF is dated 2011 as well. ------------- '92 Correctcraft Ski Nautique |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-11-2016 at 9:27am
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JPass What you found is the same thing that I put a link up for yesterday. It's the first of the 2 links in that post Gary I know what I think the answer is to your Aeroquip question, but it's only what I think and neither me or you or plenty of other people would like that answer. I think the fittings are fine but the hose doesn't have those magic words printed on it.. KenO |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-11-2016 at 9:37am
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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=30976&title=hard-fuel-line-not-necessary-read" rel="nofollow - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=30976&title=hard-fuel-line-not-necessary-read Here's a link from 2013 here on CCF I don't think anything has changed since then, the last time the ABYC revised anything in their Gasoline Fuel Systems standard was in 2012 as far as I can tell More people looking and asking questions will get the answer. I'm thinking the ABYC will be getting contacted one way or another today. Edit,I just sent them an e mail KenO |
Posted By: backfoot100
Date Posted: April-11-2016 at 11:51am
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Interesting read from the posted USCG regs. I have to say that I would interpret them to say that an A1 type hose is perfectly fine to use legally. I also think that there are more modern materials and connections that are far superior to anything that is official USCG approved. AN type hose and connections immediately come to mind. As for the OP and his carb, I have to say that it's amazing that carb runs as well as he said it did. We often hear and see carbs that have the smallest particle of dirt really mess it up. The way that carb looks, I'm surprised it ran at all, let alone run good. I've seen that spring/screw setup on marine carbs before and I agree with others that replacing those with the more traditional full length bolts and nylon washers is the way to go. And for God's sake clean that thing up.....LOL. ------------- When people run down to the lake to see what's making that noise, you've succeeded. Eddie |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: April-11-2016 at 12:19pm
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I concur, given the debri, good chance either idle fuel orifice is clogged.by now. If these boats are new to you, might not be privy on how well they should run yet, especually about idle and off-idle. One person's fine or excellent, can be another's meh. We'de just like to see you get the full experience of reliablity, performance, and safety. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-13-2016 at 8:09pm
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Back again with the answer I got from the ABYC technical standards department. USCG A1-15 hose used in conjunction with barbed fittings and proper hose clamps is in accordance with the USCG regs. The links I posted earlier to the USCG reg and to the ABYC guideline on how to comply with the regulations are both the latest versions. The guideline is easy to understand and gives specific examples of the type of clamps than can and can't be used so the average person (that would be me) can be in compliance. The wording is straightforward and there is a ton of information on fuel systems in it. KenO |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-13-2016 at 10:58pm
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Ken, Thanks for following up with the information you received from the ABYC. Now we know! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-14-2016 at 9:01am
| Just trying to keep us all informed Pete |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-14-2016 at 9:05am
And I appreciate that. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-14-2016 at 11:12am
I have AN lines and fittings all over my boats but I don't agree with the AN type hose as being superior to the A1 rated fuel line, at least not when it comes to flammability. The A1 stuff will withstand fire and high temperature much longer than the AN hoses I have bought. I tested with direct flame sources, hard to tell if the stainless braiding would offer any protection in a more real world situation but it doesn't help much with a direct flame test.. the AN stuff lasted about as long as standard Automotive fuel line. The A1 rated fuel hose I had was a whole different ball park. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-14-2016 at 12:55pm
The way I read it, A1-15 is needed rather than just the A1 on the high pressure side of the pump due to it's resistance to flammability? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-14-2016 at 1:13pm
Don't overcomplicate it, the A1-15 rating is just a newer rating that also takes into account permeability - A1 is A1 as it relates to fire resisitance if you buy new A1 line now you will get A1-15 ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-14-2016 at 1:30pm
Joe, I wasn't trying to overcomplicate but rather simplify! Some of those publication you need a law degree to better understand them.  Well, you should have mentioned the A1-15 to begin with.  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: April-14-2016 at 1:41pm
| Wouldn't a flared hardline be better ? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-14-2016 at 1:47pm
I sure feel it is!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |