Flow of raw water through motor
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: Anything Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38514
Printed Date: January-05-2025 at 4:50pm
Topic: Flow of raw water through motor
Posted By: t.franscioni
Subject: Flow of raw water through motor
Date Posted: April-28-2016 at 2:58am
Been rebuilding and restoring my GT40 and trying to figure out the flow of water through the motor before it goes back into boat. Im sure this is wrong but I will start with this flow pattern and you guys correct me. Water comes into the upper thermostat housing (via raw water pump), upon startup thermostat is closed so water can't pass down into the 1.25" white stripe rubber pcm hose that feeds the engine water pump so until warmed up it gets directed from the upper thermostat housing intake straight to the 2 upper thermostat housing outputs which direct the flow of water to the right and left exhaust manifolds and then is expelled overboard. When engine reaches temp the thermostat opens allowing raw water down into the 1.25" white stripe pcm hose that feeds the engine water pump which then pushes water into the right and left side of the block where it flows up each side and exits out the lower intake plenum into the upper thermostat housing and out to the right and left exhaust manifolds and expelled overboard. Im sure that's wrong because with that flow pattern I don't have any water running to the engine water pump and through the block UNTIL the thermostat opens....enlighten me please...
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Replies:
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: April-28-2016 at 6:31am
 This diagram "may" help. Thermostats deadhead water leaving the block which allows water inside the block to heat up to the point the the thermostat opens and allows flow out of the intake. The engine water pump should have water to it 100% of the time. There are bypass holes inside the thermo housing that allows water to route to the exhaust until it is overcome by heated water exiting the engine. All systems vary somewhat. I may stand corrected but this is my take. Hope others can help ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: DayTony
Date Posted: April-28-2016 at 6:43am
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I'm not familiar with the gt40 particularly. so exact application might differ. But most raw water cooled engines are similar in design. your forgetting about your circulating pump which is the main center pulley on the front of the engine. Most engines the coolant flows from the block into the heads. unless its a cadillac northstar then it goes all over the place and never gets a chance to normalize. but thats another story. Anyways i found this picture in a google search  That smaller hole supplies water to the circulating pump on demand. meaning the RWP is supplying the water to the circ pump and anything the circ pump doesn't want will flow through and out the tstat housing. once the engine warms the water thats before the tstat enough to open it the circ pump pretty much takes the majority of that feed and circulates it rather than it going through the bypass. ------------- 1988 Barefoot nautique-454 |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: April-28-2016 at 11:12am
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Tom you have it quite wrong, not certain where to begin. Tony and Duane got it down. Fresh water can always get to the engine. and stays in the circ loop. Any extra goes to the manifolds. Your manifolds stay somewhat dry till the engine fills, if it was drained prior. The Thermostat opens, letting too-hot water out of the circ loop, to be replaced my fresh water. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: t.franscioni
Date Posted: April-28-2016 at 12:22pm
| That makes sense. Behind the engine water there are two water jackets. Looks like one going to left side of block and one to right side. Are this both pump discharge jackets or is one a discharge and one an intake for the engine water pump? So the closed loop (prior to thermostat opening) is circulated between those two jackets behind engine water pump? Or are those both discharge jackets that allows water to the right and left side of block and the closed loop (prior to thermostat opening) is completed in the upper thermostat housing? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-28-2016 at 12:27pm
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Thomas, Behind the circ pump there are two ports to both sides of the block. Circulation to both sides of the block is only when the T stat opens. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: t.franscioni
Date Posted: April-28-2016 at 12:41pm
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Here is a picture with the engine water pump off. The top hole in the lower intake plenum is discharge from engine block and heads? The two right and left holes where the engine circulation water pump goes are both circ pump discharge or is one intake and one discharge? I'm talking about just when the system in is "closed loop" for lack of better term I'm referring to before the thermostat opens. I'm getting it slowly here.... Thanks |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-28-2016 at 12:54pm
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Thomas, The top hole is common to both sides of the block. The two behind the circ pump go to the left and right sides of the block and feed the pump. Water from the RWP is constantly being pumped out the exhaust manifolds and only diverted to the engine when the T stat opens. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-28-2016 at 1:17pm
| I think pretty much that entire statement is incorrect, Pete. |
Posted By: t.franscioni
Date Posted: April-28-2016 at 1:46pm
| Ok so maybe I'm more screwed up that I figured....Both right and left holes behind circ pump are INTAKES for the circ pump? Which means the top hole on the intake plenum is where the water flows into the engine? So if those 2 holes behind circ pump are intakes then circ pump is pumping water INTO the 1.25" pcm white strip hose that goes up to the thermostat housing? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-28-2016 at 1:50pm
Tim, How so? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
TRBenj wrote:Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-28-2016 at 1:55pm
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No they both are the intakes of the block,the water comes into the circulation pump thru the round hose, then thru those holes in the block circulates thru each cylinder bank then into the heads. Then out thru the heads into the intake manifold then out thru the thermostat mounting ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-28-2016 at 2:14pm
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Like Gary said, the large (1.75") hose feeding the circ pump from the stat housing is the inlet. That passage is always open regardless of thermostat position- like was said above, the block will always fill up with water if it's empty. The 2 ports on the back side of the pump are the outlets (of the pump, ie, inlet to the block). The engine fills/flows from the bottom up (block-->heads-->intake) and the thermostat controls water flow out of the intake. Even when the block is filling, there will be some amount of water cooling the exh manifolds. This is the basic PCM ford set up. Other cooling systems do it a little differently- Chryslers, HM's and interceptors that lacked circ pumps, LT1 indmars (reverse cooled), fresh water cooled engines, etc. |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: April-28-2016 at 2:15pm
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Actually the therm hole is both an "In" and a "Out" So, the therm housing is kind of like the "brain" or the "Dictator" |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-28-2016 at 2:31pm
So what's incorrect with pretty much of my entire statement?? http://www.boatinghowto.com/content/how-boat-cooling-systems-work-240/" rel="nofollow - Tim, just so I don't confuse you any more with my wording, I found a very nice PICTURE on how it works.  Note the picture does show water exiting via the risers and not the manifolds and then out the risers. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: April-28-2016 at 2:39pm
| But the animation is wrong. We do have a bypass that feeds the exhaust before the tstat opens. |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: April-28-2016 at 5:19pm
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FWIW -- This is the way the water flows through MacSkier: http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier/cooling5/index.html" rel="nofollow - MacSkier cooling You will have to follow the links to see how this was determined. I'm now quite confident of my understanding of the cooling system on the 1972 Skier. (The thermostat may never open.) -=Grant=- ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: April-28-2016 at 5:26pm
Not true for my boat. ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 11:49am
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My boat’s cooling system uses lake water to cool the engine — a 302 Ford V-8, marinized as a Conquerer-Crusader (when they were owned by Thermo Electron, equipped with its original (1972) exhaust manifolds. Unlike the closed loop systems systems found in cars and many boats (which use a "radiator" or heat exchanger and thermostat to supply coolant of an appropriate temperature), the cooling system described here uses the practically unlimited amount of lake water to cool the engine. A "raw water pump" moves a large volume of lake water into the boat, through the power plant and -- mixed with the engine's exhaust, out of the boat. When the water exits the RWP, it first passes through a small heat exchanger used to cool the transmissions cooler. (This increases the water's temperature a few degrees. We measured it.) Leaving the transmission cooler, the water enters a two-part chamber containing 1) a pressure relief valve and 2) a thermostat. The two chambers are adjacent, but not completely separated. There is a passageway between them. The lake water is pumped into the chamber containing the pressure relief valve. The valve is pushed open, and much of the water flows through it, then out the top of the chamber and on to the front of the exhaust manifold — cooling the manifold. The water that does not exit the chamber via this route, enters the chamber containing the (now closed, and possibly always closed) thermostat, then out of that chamber to the engine’s circulating pump — a recirculating type pump. The pump pushes this water through the engine block, through its heads and through its intake manifold. The water exits the exhaust manifold (where a car’s thermostat would be located.) The engine’s pump pumps the water into the front of exhaust manifold — and aft, via two “side” passageways in the manifold. A cross section of the exhaust manifold reveals four passages; one for the exhaust gases, and three for water. The top passage carries the water previously described, i.e., via the pressure relief valve (and via the thermostat if open.) The two other passages, one on each side of the manifold are fed by one inlet at the manifold’s front. At the rear (aft end) of the manifold, there are three possible exits, 1) a side exit to mix with the exhaust gases, 2) another side exit to mix with the exhaust gases, and 3) a bottom exit that carries water back to the thermostat chamber. I refer to this “bottom” flow of water as the “lower loop.” It is this “lower loop” water that has been heated by the engine block, heads, intake manifold and exhaust manifold. It is circulated by the engine’s pump back to the thermostat chamber where it is mixed with lake water being introduced by the RWP. If there is enough of this “lower loop” heated water returned to the thermostat housing it will raise the water temperature in the housing enough to open the thermostat, permitting more cool lake water to enter the block, etc. If there not enough of this “lower loop” water to open the ‘stat, the ’stat will stay closed. We have experimented enough with this system to know that restricting “lower loop” water from exiting the rear of manifold, we can raise operating temperatures to desirable ranges. But we will not be doing that until we can experience higher lake water temperatures. In summary, if you want good, predictable engine operating temperatures in your inboard boat, get one with a “closed loop” system. -=Grant=- ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 12:43pm
| Grant, you have a Conquerer-crusader (when they were owned by Thermo Electron). Not sure where you got PWC. |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 2:00pm
| He probably just got the M upsidedown, then the C exchanged places when he wasn't looking. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 3:59pm
Plus Grant, you're confusing Thomas the OP who has a PCM!! Nice schematic you drew of you Conquerer-Crusader's cooling system but again, you're confusing poor Thomas!!!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: t.franscioni
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 4:14pm
| Im so confused.... I'm not even sure who I am anymore? |
Posted By: t.franscioni
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 4:17pm
| Iv settled on the fact that as long as I put the motor back together with the cooling components in there correct places the motor will figure out the correct way to flow the cooling water through itself. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 4:50pm
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Exactly Thomas. Much like sausage you don't want to know how it's made. Just remember - never run it dry and keep the clamps tight. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 5:00pm
Thomas, Just don't look at Grant's schematic!!  Just as you mentioned, put it back together and start it up!!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: C-Bass
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 5:34pm
Gary, are you talking about his sausage or his cooling system? ------------- Craig 67 SN 73 SN http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=6103" rel="nofollow - 99 Sport 85SN |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 5:50pm
Errrr . . . Can you spell Dyslexia? ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 6:33pm
Yes both ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 6:45pm
A better way: ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 7:09pm
Grant, You did it again!!! Thomas does not have fresh water cooling!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Tim D
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 7:29pm
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Like TimB said, the engine is going to back fill When I put my GT40 in the water, you can hear it back filling the first few seconds. When you pull your boat out of the water, the block doesn't remain completely full without the water flow. You can take the thermostat out and there won't be any water at the top of the intake manifold. ------------- Tim D |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 7:35pm
Tell him to look under his boat. If he can't find any there - - he can use some of mine. There's plenty enough to share. ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 8:03pm
Grant, I have to ask if you know what fresh water cooling is or are you just trying to be funny? The diagram you posted is fresh water cooling. If you don't know what it is, I'd be happy to explain it but in another thread so as not to confuse Thomas even more. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 8:13pm
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Grant posted a beautiful rendition (in color) of closed cooling. |
Posted By: Blamey
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 8:17pm
Fresh water is closed cooling. Raw water is the open cooling. ------------- 96 Super Sport Previously: 95 Sport Nautique, 1980 Ski Supreme |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 8:22pm
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edited: keep scrolling |
Posted By: Blamey
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 8:30pm
I agree the term fresh water for closed is confusing but I believe it come from use fresh vs salt water for cooling. ------------- 96 Super Sport Previously: 95 Sport Nautique, 1980 Ski Supreme |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 8:50pm
I'll agree. And the latest diagram I posted is a CLOSED system. -- where the cooling of the coolant in the closed loop is via a heat exchanger. It's a much BETTER system for cooling a marine engine. ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 10:00pm
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It is a much better system but also contributes to some of the reason why a new boat costs more than your first house ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 10:12pm
| edit: continue scrolling. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 11:07pm
WHY? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-29-2016 at 11:18pm
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Easier to winterize? the ability to use aluminum block and heads in all types of water? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: April-30-2016 at 12:39am
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Why Better? There are many reasons, but for me the two major reasons why "closed" is better than "open." 1) The engine can operate at optimum temperatures when cooled by a "closed loop." These temperatures are much higher than those you are able to safely regulate with an open system like the one I'm trying to regulate on my old Skier -- the one with a cracked block I had to replace because the previous owner didn't drain the "open system" water. 2) The coolant coming in contact with the block, heads, intake manifold and circulating pumps are of a known chemical make-up -- clean, especially designed for that application -- better (more efficient) heat transfer, less internal corrosion, freeze point depression, lubricating qualities, etc., etc. http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/cooling.htm" rel="nofollow - A DISCUSSION HERE ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-30-2016 at 1:29am
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You wouldn't want an early Holman Moody then Grant- they barely crack 120 on the very hottest days ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: April-30-2016 at 11:48am
Good to know, I'll correct in my notes. Thanks, Wouldn't it be nice if posts here could be edited (by author)? Would make the whole thing more useful, methinks. : -) ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: fanofccfan
Date Posted: April-30-2016 at 11:59am
You can......go to your post and in upper right hand corner is "post options". edit post is one option to use. |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: April-30-2016 at 12:05pm
Good to know. I'll bet there were some interesting discussions between HM and CC about that. I lived and worked in Charlotte in 1964-68. A good friend did special machine work for HM -- bending the rules a bit for HM's left-front suspensions. I visited their shop a few times -- at the airport. I don't remember anything about their marine activities. But they were grinding cams, so it makes sense that they got involved with boat engines. RE: "Flow of raw water through motor" Have we drifted far enough from the subject? ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: April-30-2016 at 12:13pm
Consider it done! ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: May-01-2016 at 12:36am
In http://www.correctcraftfan.com/Downloads/Crusader_Conqueror.pdf" rel="nofollow - THIS manual, we find the following diagrams. And, BTW, with a properly designed Closed Cooling System, water temperature under the boat should have little or no effect on engine operating temperature.  ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: May-05-2016 at 11:45am
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FWIW: We are still not happy with the temperatures in MacSkier, and wonder if anyone here is getting readings above 120F. Our suspicion is that there is too much "warmed" water leaving the boat via the aft-most orifices in the manifolds' aft-cap, and we will again try restricting the "side" openings in those caps. Restrictions here will force more "warmed" water into the thermostat chamber -- where water temps have NEVER opened the 'stat. Also, we have run tests that show NO water is leaving the "thermostat/pressure release" chamber via the uppermost hoses -- the ones leading to the upper jacket in the manifolds. We also suspect there has been no water at the temperature gauge sensor, which would explain cool readings on the boat's gauge -- temps confirmed with handheld infrared gauge. The engine is running great -- outperforming expectations -- but cool running has to be harmful to the engine. BTW, there are some excellent discussions of marine engine cooling here. https://www.perfprotech.com/" rel="nofollow - LINK ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-05-2016 at 11:56am
| I run 150 on my conquerer-crusader. Sounds like you have something plumbed incorrectly. Adding restrictions is not the proper solution. |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: May-05-2016 at 12:01pm
That's what we keep telling ourselves! ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: May-05-2016 at 12:04pm
| It has been my experience that air at the sensor would read higher temperature than water. |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: May-05-2016 at 12:14pm
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"It has been my experience that air at the sensor would read higher temperature than water. " That was my expectation. But a fellow here who owned a big boat dealership showed me how if there is no water around the sensor, readings are low -- this was confirmed with hand-held infrared thermometer. There is plenty of water cooling the block, heads and intake manifold -- and exiting the "engine" (via the intake manifold near the sensor's location.) ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: May-05-2016 at 12:21pm
| How did he show you that? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-05-2016 at 5:27pm
I'm curious too! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: May-05-2016 at 7:14pm
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He drew a sketch, similar to http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier/cooling5/sketch.jpg" rel="nofollow - mine . On the Skier's engine, the effluent from the engine's water jackets is lower than the thermistor's location in the intake manifold, so it is possible the thermistor is not in the coolant. ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-05-2016 at 8:27pm
| Exhaust manifold inlets are always lower than the thermostat housing, why would that matter? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-05-2016 at 9:43pm
I feel Grant should go talk to this gentleman for more information:
He must know more about it that we do??  Maybe big boats are different? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: May-05-2016 at 10:15pm
| But, the water in a exh manif is higher than the temp sender in a big boat. |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: May-05-2016 at 10:22pm
A "big boat dealership" was poorly stated. I should have written "a big dealership" -- ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: May-05-2016 at 10:25pm
I made no mention of a "big boat," nor "exhaust manifold." ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-05-2016 at 11:14pm
Sorry Grant but now I'm really confused!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: May-05-2016 at 11:16pm
| I wouldn't restrict any effluents. You'll need those to keep your exhaust hose from having a singed cataclysmic event. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: May-05-2016 at 11:45pm
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To your knowledge Grant has this engine ever run at an acceptable temp? Does anyone else have the same conversion using the exact same parts? Is it possible,like the HM's,that they never ran any higher and when PCM bought them it wasn't for their superior cooling system design and they quit using it? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-06-2016 at 12:18am
| I have the same marinization set up as it was originally and it cools at 150. Pcm never bought conquerer-crusader, you may be thinking of Escort. |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: May-06-2016 at 12:30am
Gary, 1) Not to my knowledge. I ran it a few hours before discovering the cracked block. I do remember thinking the gauge was broken. I've changed all the gauges except fuel level. Sensor is correct for new gauge. 2) I don't know. I've been told by "CC experts" on recent St. Johns River trip that manifolds are "original." It's a '72 and they look different than the '73s in the 73 manual here on CCF. 3) In my opinion, it's a terrible design. I am wondering how lake water temp. will affect engine temps. I've made all new gaskets for exhaust manifolds today. (3rd time a charm?) We are going to try restricting flow on "side jackets" tomorrow a.m. This should force some water into 'stat housing, and into upper ex. man. jackets. At idle now, top of ex manifolds reach 250F before we shut it down. I've not noticed this at higher RPMs, Tests show NO water in/out of top jackets at idle, up to 2500 in driveway. And the stat has NEVER opened -- except on my kitchen stove top. We have tested every component of the system. We found that (intentional) 100% restriction of "side jackets" bring temp to 200F within one minute, but "top jackets" are cooled by water leaving pressure relief valve. With same 100% restriction, and drain petcocks open, it take about twice as long to reach 200F. So, we know restricting side flow does increase top flow and increases engine temp. Now, it will be "how much?" Not yet mentioned in THIS thread -- I installed a "leakless" thru-hull fitting for prop shaft. It requires some cooling water -- which I picked it up from tranny fittting. It does seem to me that MORE raw water would improve my situation. One of these four passages was blocked up a bit -- but not much:  ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: May-06-2016 at 12:44am
The same volume of water will reach the hoses -- just by a different route. ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: May-06-2016 at 7:37pm
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Some results of today’s efforts to improve operating temperatures in MacSkier: As expected, restricting water flow through the side jackets (the "lower loop") on the exhaust caps greatly improved water flow through the thermostat housing (and upper jacket in exhaust manifold), but still not enough to increase temperatures enough to open the 160F thermostat. All the improved flow occurred through the so-called pressure relief valve. We now know that the flow should be restricted more here, but not restricted as much as by only opening petcocks — optimum restriction is somewhere between the two. (I’m tired of making gaskets — the material is “3 ply” with center ply metal — not easy to cut.) See photos below showing, 1) the aft exhaust manifold cap with no gasket and 2) the same photo painted with blue — blue representing the shape of the gasket used to restrict flow today.   Improvements noted were 1) tops of exhaust manifolds today measured at 200F, whereas before restricted flow, the temps were 250F or higher, and 2) there was heated water in the “return” hoses in the lower loop. We also noticed more even flow between the two exhaust pipes. (Before restriction more flow out starboard than port.) We are now sure that more restriction would get the temperature gauge to read more desirable temperatures, but 1) the boat is to be run during a show on April 14, and 2) we will wait for higher lake water temperatures to observe how higher temps affect engine temps. (My suspicion is high lake water temperatures will still not cause thermostat to open, and therefore engine temps will be too low for optimum engine performance and/or life.) ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-07-2016 at 10:01am
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Lake water temps will affect warm up time but not the running temperature (if everything else is proper). 160 is also the incorrect stat. |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: May-07-2016 at 10:33am
Good to know that. That's what is expected, and what we are trying to obtain. But we are still not getting enough warm water into thermostat housing. In the current situation, lake water temp WILL affect operating temps. We can demonstrate this by increasing water temp in bucket during driveway runs. Is the "correct stat" a secret? Many have suggested 140, but since we have yet to attain much over 110 (on the boat's gauge), it makes little difference at this time. Thermostat housing temp -- (top exterior) -- has yet to reach 100.  ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: May-07-2016 at 12:41pm
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Is your stat housing plastic? Remember that it has warm water from the block and cool water from the rwp in it so that is not the right place to be measuring engine water temp. Try pointing the thermometer to the water jacket on the intake (next to the temp sensor). Sounds like you've already received plenty of feedback on the 143 being the correct stat. Has to be a pretty poorly kept secret.
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Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: May-07-2016 at 4:35pm
That's usually the first place we measure. It agrees with, or is a bit lower than, the boat's gauge -- as it should be. We measure all over! And yes, that upper part is plastic. I wish it wasn't. Are metal castings available?
If/when we get more warm water up there, we'll get a lower temp stat. I plan to run the boat up the Mississippi tomorrow -- dodging all the usual Flotsam and jetsam as I go. In the driveway, with clamped board preventing prop shaft from turning in neutral and ruining cutlass  ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-07-2016 at 4:42pm
Get your trans rebuilt. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: May-07-2016 at 5:07pm
Good idea. And them move engine, prop, drive shaft, thru-hull, rebuilt trans and new "closed" cooling system to my new boat. On second thought, I'll wait 'til trans fluid warms up. ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-07-2016 at 5:19pm
Grant, Considering you had to clamp on a board to prevent the prop/shaft from turning, it sounds like the dirty neutral is pretty bad. With the clutch plates dragging that much, it doesn't matter if the fluid is warm or cold. You mentioned moving the engine, prop, drive shaft, thru-hull (log). Are you wanting to reposition them fore or aft? If so, I'm curious as to why. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: May-07-2016 at 10:16pm
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Just wet the cutlass before starting & let the prop spin. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: GMacLaren
Date Posted: May-07-2016 at 11:58pm
Chris, yes, we've done that for short runs. But for longer episodes of testing, etc. we've clamped it. It really does not turn much. In fact, after a run up the river, it doesn't turn at all in neutral. Clamped, it's one less thing to think about. I'd rather pay attention to keeping the bucket full during longer, faster runs. ------------- -=Grant MacLaren=- Retired Expert http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier" rel="nofollow - http://www.grantmaclaren.com/72skier |
Posted By: 75 Tique
Date Posted: May-08-2016 at 2:00am
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Read all the words Pete. He didn't say he was moving the engine in his boat. He said he would move them to another boat. ------------- _____________ “So, how was your weekend?” “Well, let me see…sun burn, stiff neck, screwed up back, assorted aches and pains….yup, my weekend was great, thanks for asking.” |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-08-2016 at 6:29am
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Larry, Thanks. You're correct that I missed that Grant wants to move the engine to another boat.  Grant, Sounds like you don't have the dirty neutral as bad as I thought. Keep moving forward with your temperature testing. It's very interesting. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |