Heat Exchanger for closed loop cooling
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URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38659
Printed Date: November-26-2024 at 10:23pm
Topic: Heat Exchanger for closed loop cooling
Posted By: PKB1023
Subject: Heat Exchanger for closed loop cooling
Date Posted: May-18-2016 at 8:29pm
I am considering installing a heat exchanger on my 1980 sn to make it a closed loop cooling system. Any recommendations? 
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Replies:
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-18-2016 at 10:11pm
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Phil, I suggest looking into one of the conversion kits. It will take a lot of the guess work out. Why do you want to convert? I hope you find enough room for the tube in shell under the doghouse (engine box). ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: PKB1023
Date Posted: May-18-2016 at 11:14pm
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Peter, I am starting out on restoring my 1980 sn. If the block checks out good after all this time with the many years of not properly winterized and I did run it in saltwater for a year, I figured a closed loop system would protect it from here on out. I do not know all the pros and cons on closed loop systems. I welcome any thoughts. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-19-2016 at 5:49am
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Phil, I suggest keeping it as is and original The cost and the added complexity isn't worth it. I can't even guess at the number of raw water cooled boats running out there and many even running in salt. If in salt, flushing is common and then new exhaust manifolds every 4 or 5 years depending on the run time is the norm for our smaller boats. New engines (or some old) running fresh water cooled (closed cooling) are using it primarily due to aluminum components and todays exhaust emission systems. How about posting some pictures of the project? What's the plan and how far along are you? Any stringer work needed? Fill us in. We'd love to hear about it. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: DayTony
Date Posted: May-19-2016 at 8:27am
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I suggest looking into a kit. but for the most part your going to need. all new hoses. new thermostat housing probably, thermostat i'm running 260 if memory serves correctly. block off plates for the manifolds and 4 gaskets. a handfull of 90 and straigh nipples. 1" and of course the xchanger. IF you plan on doing any salt water riding i wouldn't hesitate to convert. Its the difference between that block being rebuildable or not in the future. heads as well. I highly recommend fresh water cooling the manifolds as well. most systems do this. You will never have to replace a manifold again. and the only thing that salt water would hit is the risers. indmar, and mercruiser make a kit. I don't know if PCM sells one. They are around $1000 and to be honest. if you can buy a "kit" made for your application than i would spring for it rather than try and peice together a kit. especially used stuff. Just remember its one extra step when winterizing. you got to drain that xchanger or fill it with antifreeze. -Tony ------------- 1988 Barefoot nautique-454 |
Posted By: DayTony
Date Posted: May-19-2016 at 8:34am
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my opinion between the two. pros of closed loop. pro is winterizing you only have to worry about the exhaust and xchanger. you'll never crack a head or block. longevity of the block and heads and parts. engine temps stay a little more stable in my opinion. my open loop system fluctuates so much I feel bad for the cyl walls. def not necessary for fresh water only use though. pros of open loop, cleaner looking and lighter weight. ------------- 1988 Barefoot nautique-454 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-19-2016 at 8:46am
Tony, And where would Phil find the space for the tube in shell under the dog house in his SN1980? Finding the space for just for the engine is going to be a issue but do you realize how many BTU's the manifolds add? The tube in shell get's even larger adding the manifold's. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
DayTony wrote:Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: May-19-2016 at 11:37am
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He might even have trouble finding room for the header tank under an 80 motor box too. I have thought about putting one in on the Shamrock,but even with it's larger motorbox it sure would make the engine that much harder to do anything with. I decided to put on the Hi Teks since the manifolds seem to be the weakest link of the whole system and I believe even with a closed system they still get saltwater in them anyway. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: shierh
Date Posted: May-19-2016 at 2:03pm
| Make box bigger, not that hard. I widened mine 2". |
Posted By: nobrainsd
Date Posted: May-19-2016 at 2:40pm
I have a 94 ski nautique. I really have no experience with older nautiques like the 80's model referenced. I did install a closed cooling system from Skidim on my fresh water only new old boat when I bought it. It is now running in salt water twice a week all year round. The conversion kit from Skidim made the switch easy. It comes with the brackets for the heat exchanger and everything you will need. I was impressed with how well it all fit into the pre existing dimensions of the engine. I can't comment on how this will work on your boat. But Skidims customer service was excellent at answering my questions and helping me make the decision. I have attached some images that show how nicely the pieces fit around my engine. One of the nicest things about the closed cooling system is how my heater hasn't clogged up and gotten as bad as my buddies has. Yes, I still flush my risers and exhaust after every use. The system has worked very well and I haven't found it all that difficult to work around. YMMV   
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-19-2016 at 2:41pm
There you go again with the non original ideas!!!   Steve, You must have missed this:
Notice he states "restore" and not "restomod"!!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: DayTony
Date Posted: May-19-2016 at 6:32pm
wouldn't fresh water cooling be considered resto-mod?  jp. My system is hooked through the manifolds, the heat exchanger doesn't grow by much more than what nobrain posted. Mine sits behind the carb above the belhousing and gear. I know it would fit in my 88 If i were to outfit it that way. I'm not familiar with 1980s doghouse though. either way, if its going to be run in salt water i would still recommend looping the manifolds in there if it can be done. in salt water the manifolds and risers are on borrowed time after just a few seasons. some people stretch it further but its still advisable. ------------- 1988 Barefoot nautique-454 |
Posted By: OldBrewer
Date Posted: May-19-2016 at 7:42pm
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I think you should scrap the closed loop idea and look into flushing the engine after your salt water use. There are a number of salt dissolving products out there, some very expensive to use. or use white vinegar. A lot of cheep fertilizer sprayers out there to hook up to a garden hose for your engine flush. PS don't forget to spray down the rest of the boat and trailer too, Salt don't only eat your engine. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-19-2016 at 8:46pm
If the boat was being judged under ACBS guidelines, no under certain conditions. If the owner was using the boat in salt and no outward appearances with the engine hatch/dog house down, then there would not be a deduction in points. The other very big modification that doesn't allow a point deduction is safety. A good example is fusing that the boat didn't have when it came from the factory. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: nobrainsd
Date Posted: May-19-2016 at 11:01pm
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I flush my exhaust with Salt Away after every use. But I've seen how much it rusts anyways when I pull, inspect and polish the mating surfaces on the manifolds and risers. I wanted to keep my very clean engine in good shape, be nice to my t stat, make my heater last and not have to use as much water when I flush to do a good job so a FWC system works for me. But I would wonder whether an original 80's engine would be in a condition where it would be worthwhile? I wouldn't bother with closed cooling on an engine that already showed internal signs of much scale or corrosion. FWC does run with a hotter t stat in my year and the heater runs hotter :) |
Posted By: PKB1023
Date Posted: May-30-2016 at 9:38pm
| Thanks for all the information and the pics. I decide if the old engine will run< I will leave it alone. Maybe after the project is complete, I will look at starting off with a fresh block and then consider installing a kit. |
Posted By: JetDriver
Date Posted: February-24-2023 at 2:25am
| Anybody know of a kit for a 77’ mustang? I just recently moved from the lake to the Chesapeake bay and can’t stomach the thought of running an open system in the salt. Thanks in advance. |
Posted By: nobrainsd
Date Posted: February-24-2023 at 12:02pm
| I haven't seen a kit for that model. You will probably have to piece together a half system. Might start by looking at your engine to dog house spacing. There are a number of different orientations available (side mount, front mount and vertical). I was fortunate to buy a complete system with side mounts from Ski Dim for my 94 Nautique, but that is no longer available. You might try contacting Orca Marine Cooling Systems www.orcamarine.com . They were very helpful when I installed a system on a very different brand of boat. |
Posted By: JetDriver
Date Posted: February-24-2023 at 1:10pm
| Thank you. I’ll reach out to them. If the tank can be mounted remotely I have plenty of space in front of the motor down low. Would you happen to have some up close pictures of your system? Thanks again |
Posted By: Air206
Date Posted: February-24-2023 at 9:22pm
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Here's how they did it in '64-68 on a Buick 300 https://i.imgur.com/HhHeYal.jpg%20" rel="nofollow">   https://i.imgur.com/HhHeYal.jpg%20" rel="nofollow - Click For Full-Size Image .------------- https://tinyurl.com/y6t5e3bu" rel="nofollow - 04 Air206 http://tinyurl.com/9urzgls" rel="nofollow - 91 Barefoot 78 SkiTiq |
Posted By: Air206
Date Posted: February-24-2023 at 9:25pm
From the other side... She's a bit of a rough beauty, isn't she!  https://i.imgur.com/u01BeV0.jpg%20" rel="nofollow">  https://i.imgur.com/u01BeV0.jpg%20" rel="nofollow - Click For Full-Size Image .2 Posts since I haven't posted in a while. ------------- https://tinyurl.com/y6t5e3bu" rel="nofollow - 04 Air206 http://tinyurl.com/9urzgls" rel="nofollow - 91 Barefoot 78 SkiTiq |
Posted By: JetDriver
Date Posted: February-25-2023 at 6:58am
| Thank you. So the risers are still raw water cooled? |
Posted By: Air206
Date Posted: February-25-2023 at 8:20am
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Yes - The coolant (water) for the exhauster manifolds and mixers dump into the lake. Don't want anti-freeze in that.. and yes, they still corrode in salt water. It's not bad if you flush them every time. Plumb in a way to run the boat on a hose to flush the raw water pump, heat exchanger and manifolds. This Revley Marinization setup was used as the '64 Buick 300 V8 engine is a hybrid aluminum and cast iron engine. ------------- https://tinyurl.com/y6t5e3bu" rel="nofollow - 04 Air206 http://tinyurl.com/9urzgls" rel="nofollow - 91 Barefoot 78 SkiTiq |
Posted By: nobrainsd
Date Posted: February-25-2023 at 8:22pm
| Well, when it stops hailing and raining I would be happy to uncover the boat and take a few photos. Yep, a half system still runs salt water through the manifolds. I replace mine every 3-4 years. Probably overkill. But I don't even want the hassle of water in the engine. Still think the freshwater system was a worthwhile investment. My heater likes it? :) If you run much in saltwater it is a good investment. Salt Away flush every time I hit saltwater. When I change my manifolds they always look better than I would think, but I change them anyway. |
Posted By: nobrainsd
Date Posted: February-27-2023 at 8:36pm
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https://ibb.co/Tv8DvFT" rel="nofollow">  https://ibb.c%3ca%20href=" rel="nofollow">  o/3pQsR5S] [/url] https://ibb.co/6bK0tZb" rel="nofollow">  This is my fresh water system on a 94 ski nautique. Obviously you will not have the same installation on your Mustang. But the diagram and photos might help you as you seek to piece together a system. This kit came from Ski Dim and is NLA. Most of the parts are still available, but the freshwater thermostat is definitely NLA and occasionally shows up on Craigslist. The first image is a diagram of the system. The second shows the heat exchanger in place beside the engine. The kit had nice pre made brackets, but that doesn't seem like it would be a big issue on a pieced together system. The third image shows the expansion tank next to the manifold. The last image is of the not to be found freshwater thermostat (might be time to clean it up and repaint :) ). That part might have to be custom made for your application, but I really don't know. I do have installation instructions and a full parts list. If that might help you at all PM me your e mail address and I'll forward them to you. Really glad I run a closed cooling system, but it is not easy to source the necessary parts. Please post back if Orca Marine Cooling is of any assistance so anyone looking back at this thread can know where to spend their efforts. If all else fails I really think Salt Away has been an excellent flush. I also power spray my entire boat with it.
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Posted By: JetDriver
Date Posted: February-27-2023 at 8:49pm
| Thank you. This will help a ton. I will reach out to them and see what they say. So the water comes in at the raw water port thru the circulating pump then to the heat exchanger. Where does it exit? Did you include the manifolds and risers in the closed system and dump the sea water in the exhaust lines? Thanks again for the insight. |
Posted By: nobrainsd
Date Posted: February-27-2023 at 10:46pm
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The raw water, or in this case seawater, is drawn into the boat by the raw water pump. Not sure about a Mustang, but generally the raw water pump is located behind the engine. The raw water then flows to the heat exchanger and passes through a jacket. It cools the hot "fresh water" , or in my case antifreeze and water, and then flows to the individual manifolds where it cools the exhaust manifolds and is exhausted :) The "fresh water", or antifreeze in the block recirculates through the circulation pump. In my boat this on the front of the block. It circulates through the block then cycles through the heat exchanger in a separate jacket from the raw water. This cools the fresh water and it just keeps recirculating. This is a half system. Yes, seawater still runs through the exhaust manifolds and out of the exhaust. Which is why I flush the system every time I hit saltwater. There is a Y shown in the diagram after the heat exchanger and a different upper thermostat housing than that for raw water systems. Some of the freshwater gets diverted from going straight to the circulation pump and goes into the thermostat housing. I am guessing this makes sure enough coolant keeps flowing through the heat exchanger while the thermostat is closed? Someone smarter than me would have to tell you. All sorts of parts are available. The upper thermostat housing for a Mustang, I have no clue. Hopefully Orca might give you some advice or try Hardin Marine (they sell kits for Chevy's and some Fords). Getting the efficiency of the system right sounds difficult. |
Posted By: Fl Inboards
Date Posted: February-28-2023 at 11:12am
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Just throwing it out their, I am getting ready to put a heat exchanger off a 6.0 non cat with a number of hoses and mounting bracket up for sale along with the rest of the yearly accumulation of used equipment for spring clean out. it mounts above the bell housing between the risors. it is not as bulky as some. I know i am a pretty ingenious fabricator and could make it work on just about anything PCM as well as look oem.. ------------- Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise. 1993 Shamrock "fat" 20. 2008 Nautique 196 5.0 |
Posted By: nobrainsd
Date Posted: February-28-2023 at 2:40pm
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Way cool FL Inboards. And I seem to have mis spoke when I said my raw water pump is on the back of the engine. Definitely not so on my boat, but true on the last v drive I changed the impeller on. Oh well. The routing of the raw water is still the same. My raw water strainer is in back :) Jetdriver, if you run a lot in salt water the effort to install closed cooling can be worth it, but otherwise being serious about flushing the cooling system is the next best thing. I don't always feel like doing it when I get home and it seems I support Salt Away big time (not cheap). But I do like riding 5 minutes from my front door :)
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Posted By: JetDriver
Date Posted: February-28-2023 at 2:59pm
| Could you send some pictures please. |
Posted By: JetDriver
Date Posted: February-28-2023 at 3:09pm
| I moved from a lake to the Chesapeake bay. So I’ll be running in salt a lot. I have a dock but don’t have running water there. Is 2000’ from the house so a hose isn’t an option. I could drag it in barrels with the tractor but again a pain. I don’t have a ramp at the house either so in and out won’t work. It’s been sitting it the garage for two years because I keep coming to dead ends. So I appreciate all the help and insight. |
Posted By: Wilhelm Hertzog
Date Posted: February-28-2023 at 3:33pm
I believe standard routing is to go through the transmission oil cooler first, and then through the heat exchanger. I converted to fresh water cooling a few years ago (documented here on CCF - posting from my phone so can't include the link right now). Looks like I got hold of one of the last upper thermostat housings. ------------- 1982 Ski Nautique PCM351W RR II Velvet Drive 10-17-003 1:1 II PerfectPass Stargazer Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light. |
Posted By: nobrainsd
Date Posted: February-28-2023 at 4:17pm
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Yep, there is a transmission oil cooler inline there before the raw water pump. Was trying to clarify the basics for JetDriver. Easy to forget that cooler since it seems to be the only thing in my boat that I haven't had to deal with at any point... so far :) Haven't ever seen a full system with manifolds fresh water cooled unless in a really big boat. Are newer Nautiques with fresh water systems half systems or full? Just curious. |
Posted By: nobrainsd
Date Posted: February-28-2023 at 5:35pm
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Jetdriver, I understand you have a unique situation. I was trying to minimize my water use during the drought here and contacted Salt Away. They suggested drawing water from one barrel with their product and then capturing the exhaust water. By recycling the flush water I could accomplish the task with a minimum of supply. Interesting concept. They claimed that I could reuse the water a few times, but weren't very specific. How many times could one re use the flush fluid? I dropped the idea and just focused on keeping my flush time short, but what looks to be effective. I always wait until I'm getting strong flow in bursts out the exhaust at idle. Any flush is better than no flush.
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