Unexplained Episodes of Stalling
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38686
Printed Date: November-21-2024 at 3:41pm
Topic: Unexplained Episodes of Stalling
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Subject: Unexplained Episodes of Stalling
Date Posted: May-23-2016 at 9:25am
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Hello CorrectCraft Experts....I have a odd one for you that I can't solve and need your expertise. I have done my best to cruise existing topics as well as provide as much information as possible below. Thanks for taking a look! Boat: 1989 Ski Nautique 2001, PCM 351. Electronic Ignition Background: Purchased last October, I only took it out on the water twice, both without any issues. Over the winter it was winterized following best practices including an oil change, oil filter, etc. Also during this time the fuel Filter housing was upgraded to a more modern one so filters were easier to find, etc. Symptom: From a cold start, boat will turn over without issue, idle and level off as normal. I can cruise for 30-45 minutes without issue and this is usually about the time I make it to my destination so I dock it. Coming back 1-2 hours later (engine still warm), it will start fine, but then stall/die after about 45 seconds. After dying, I can usually start the boat right back, sometimes I have to wait a minute or 2. Apon turning back over, it will again run for about 30-45 seconds, then stall. This will continue 8-9 times until finally it decides to stay running and will be fine. More Info on Scenario: The stalling happens regardless of idle, neutral revved, underway, etc. Two weeks ago I decided to replace the ignition coil. This seemed to have fixed the issue with an entire weekend without issue. That is until the last run of the day, when it stalled again, same scenario as above. After looking at it when the issue was happening, I noticed the ignition coil was unbelievably hot. So I did some reading, noticed that it said "external resistor required" on the coil and started tracing wires. I Found that the external ballast resistor had been bypassed. So I purchased a new ign. coil, and new ballast resistor and installed. Boat started an ran, but only had 1 hours to test. I am not confident this is a solution... What I have Checked: I have attempted to follow the wiring system throughout the boat to ensure good connectivity an no major drops in voltage I have tested the battery with a load tester I have tested the alternator and confirmed a healthy 13.5-14 while engine on at the battery and throughout the system The boat has run 2 tanks of gas, so the gas that sat over the winter should be gone What I have replaced: - Fuel Filter and Housing (as a part of wintirization last October) - Distributor Cap (likely unrelated, but it was time) - Battery (again, no issues with the other one, but a just eliminating items) - Dash Wiring (my local mechanic re-wired the dash switches so they all did not feed off the ignition) - Ignition Coil & Ballast Resistor (see "More Info on Scenario") Side Notes: I have noticed that the volt meter on the dash never goes above 12.5 while engine is on. I have read this can be from corroded connections on the gages, etc. I am getting a ful 13.5 at the batter while engine running. This may/may not be related. I greatly appreciate any thoughts/feedback on this one. I am stumped! |
Replies:
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-23-2016 at 9:37am
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Byron, First I'd like to welcome you to CCfan. New members are always great to come on board. Pictures would be great as well. The coil and ballast resistor not being wired correctly sure sounds like it was your problem. Time will tell. The other potential is the EI conversions have been know to create problems. Unfortunately there isn't an easy way to test them. Run the boat and if the problem comes up again, I'd switch back to a point set. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: May-23-2016 at 9:54am
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Thanks so much for the quick feedback and welcoming me to the Forum, I appreciate it. I believe the EI conversion has been in place for several years (certainly does not mean it could not be causing issues)., I will ask the previous owner who I met and purchased this boat through CCFan about when that was done and if he had any issues. Do you (or anyone) have any concerns about the 12.5 voltage on the dash or think I need to be look at the fuel system? Again, thanks everyone for the feedback and help. |
Posted By: DayTony
Date Posted: May-23-2016 at 10:00am
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Make sure the coil you have is not an internal resisted coil. Have you by chance felt the coil after running it for a while? They usually get hot but if they are REALLY hot than you have a supply issue. Make sire the voltage is good and clean going to the resistor and coil. You dont want to be tagging off any supply that may get interrupted. The symptoms sure sound coil related to me. I wouldnt give up on the ei right away. ------------- 1988 Barefoot nautique-454 |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: May-23-2016 at 10:06am
| Thanks Tony for the input. I was able to clearly define that the coil requires an external resistor based on its specs. Initially, I thought it was coil releated so replaced it, but then this weekend it happend again, and only then I noticed that the resistor was not wired in, so replaced that and got another coil for good measure.... |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: May-23-2016 at 10:24am
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Byron - The 12.5V at dash is a common problem. The wire feeding the dash is just barely big enough to carry the load, some will argue that it is undersize. Some of us (myself included) had added another wire to supply the dash, which will minimize the voltage drop. I also added another ground, which helps with gauges. Here is a thread: http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22036&title=1990-dash-wiring" rel="nofollow - wiring ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: May-23-2016 at 12:00pm
| Agree on your response and thanks for the link. Do we think that issue of poor power to the dash is related to the stalling? Regardless I will likely do the upgraded wiring to alleviate the 12.5v reading issue. Consensus on ignition coil being the culprit and replacing it, this time with a resistor, needs to be focus? Appreciate the feedback everyone. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-23-2016 at 12:03pm
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I suspect your igniter module is smoked. The damage internally is already done. Seen it before give your scenario, running coil without matched impedance. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: May-23-2016 at 12:09pm
| Thanks for reply. And excuse my lack of knowledge, the igniter module is the rotary that the distributor cap attaches too? |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-23-2016 at 12:16pm
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No, speaking of the EI points replacement module, often called an igniter. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: May-23-2016 at 12:36pm
There are easy ways to check the EI modules with a Volt Ohm Meter. Just google your brand of EI and find the trouble shooting section. Just did my Mallory setup last week. It checked good and was a coil issue. Some on here are against EI conversions or EI in general. Seems odd to me that 99.999% of the auto and boat manufacturers would switch to inferior ignition systems. Thanks but I'll keep my Electronic Ignition in everything I own. ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
8122pbrainard wrote:Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-23-2016 at 2:50pm
Duane, You are correct but this is a static test. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: DayTony
Date Posted: May-24-2016 at 3:53am
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How is your coil mounted? If its mounted sideways than move it upright or get an epoxy filled coild like the msd blaster. oil filled coils don't like to be mounted sideways. some run forever like that without issue but most do not. ------------- 1988 Barefoot nautique-454 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-24-2016 at 6:57am
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Bryon, I still suspect the EI conversion. Regarding the coil mounted horizontal, I'd like to respectfully say there are 10's of thousands out there running that way. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-24-2016 at 11:22am
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Concur, The EI was overstressed in an out-of-spec high current condition, and now fails under high ambient heat even if the coil's primary resistance was now corrected. Its a toxic environment for electronics, high heat, high current (which was exceeded) and suppressing the back-emf of a couple hundred volts from the coil, 200 times per second and more. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: May-24-2016 at 3:03pm
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Thanks so much for the replies everyone. So it sounds like everyone agrees that the symptoms point to the ignition system (coil and module). It also sounds like we may have stumbled on the fix (getting a new coil and resistor inline), but that damage may have been done to the module which should be tested and considered suspect if issue persists. My only feedback is that the system was running without a resistor, with a coil demanding a resistor, on its side and with EI...without issue for several seasons (according to previous owner.) It seemed to run well for me before winterization and only had this issue post summerization. No argument ignition system needs attention and focus on this item. Final question would be is anyone concerned about fuel system. My mechanic did install a new fuel filter housing (to support more modern filters). Should I examine fuel filter, fuel system, and or carb as a possible cause for this issue? Maybe I had a bunch of condensation in tank over winter and now fuel filter is messed up with water? I again greatly appreciate all the feedback, this has been a huge help. I am going to take this post with me to the lake this weekend and go line by line. You all are awesome. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-24-2016 at 4:07pm
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I understand it doesn't make sense at first. With these boats fuel starvation is the typical diagnosis with stalling out under heavy load, but almost never occurs in neutral or low-flow conditions, it will manifest at highest speeds first. Your description was contrary to that, once it occurs after use, you said it can reoccur even in neutral. If you still want to check your fuel system, make certain the tank vent is open, and the barb fitting on the tank outlet is clear of debris, those are the most common points of failure. Consider electronix are unlike a fan belt or light bulb. They will fail in a myriad of ways, from entirely open or resistively shunted (easy) to more subtle and fail at certain temperatures, certain air gaps, conditions etc. and this is likely one of them... You would not believe the processing that can occur on a two-wire part. Failure analysis of mixed signal Hall effect sensors is my bread and butter. I diagnose similar and more complex automotive components, from ignition, crank sensors, proximity sensors, as well as stepper motor and LED display drivers, and find the point of failure to the sub-micron level when necessary. I've seen how the sausage is made, and also know how it goes bad. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: May-24-2016 at 7:53pm
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So GottaSki, do you still eat sausage? Byron - How about a picture of the EI unit? Maybe we can figure out what brand it is, & possibly you won't have to replace the whole dizzy. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: May-24-2016 at 11:54pm
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GottaSki, hear you loud and clear. SNobsessed, I failed to take a picture, but I did write down "prestolite marine distributor sae-j1171" I know the sae # is genral, I could not read the exact model number very well. Its been in place for about 5-6 years, I believe. If we are convinced this module needs to go despite the addition of a new coil and resistor, maybe I should buy a new one this week and have it on standby for the long weekend?? Again, appreciate all the expertise. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 12:15am
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There are at least 3 electronic conversions,Mallory E spark,Accel which looks exactiy same just in their color yellow and the infamous Pertronix. They all make a unit for a Prestolite distributor. A picture with the cap off would help alot. For some reason when ever there are ignition problems it's always a Pertronix,not just here but other sites as well. You never hear of trouble with any other one. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 12:32am
| ah! I understand now, OK, will have to wait until the weekend when I can get some pictures, details. Thanks again everyone. |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 9:56am
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If http://inetmarine.com/jms1463-65189replacementmoduleplate-sensorjms1477-1589.aspx" rel="nofollow - this is what it looks like, then they still can be found, although it takes some looking. they go for around $90. Not to obfuscate the problem, but I have the prestolite EI & run a ballast-type coil without ballast.. Been fine for 8 years now. The only heat involved is from site! Went so far as to call Vince at SkiDim. He said the high voltage aftermarket 'Flamethrower' type coils fail all the time, but the MSD epoxy-filled coil I had was good to go in my setup. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: gun-driver
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 10:45am
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I have one I'll sell cheap http://s256.photobucket.com/user/gun-driver/media/DSC00317.jpg.html" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 11:31am
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SNobessed, I hear you. Mine was configured with a coil "requiring an external resistor" without the resistor in place for a lengthy amount of time for sure. I am not even sure me putting a resistor back in line with a new coil addressed the issue. It is so hard to consistently re-create I am grasping at straws. The other odd item is that it is literally an episode. So boat fires up, take it out for an hour, come back to dock, it sits for an hour or 2, come back, fire it up...30-45 seconds it dies, fires right back up, dies 30-45 seconds...this repeats about 10 times over the course of 30-40 minutes until it starts and decides to stay running without issue. GunDriver, I may be interested in getting that part from you just so I have something to try this weekend. Thoughts everyone? Still convinced issue lies with module and should consider replacing? Again, thanks everyone for the feedback and help. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 11:40am
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Jumping to conclusions,you don't even know what module is even in yours. If it is like Pauls go for it,but you gotta know first. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 11:59am
| Agree, going by memory is not my best attribute. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 12:05pm
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I would getting a new coil and module if I were you. Don't fool around with faulty electronics. I also have a Prestolite EI module (purple wire). It was already on the boat when we bought it 15 years ago, too bad they are NLA. |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 3:52pm
| Understood, thanks for the feedback Hollywood. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: May-25-2016 at 4:01pm
| Read the install directions and don't go bypassing the ballast resistor because someone once said so. |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: May-26-2016 at 12:03am
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Yea, I got the bypass idea from 'ole 79 Nautique. Maybe shouldn't believe everything on the net! ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-26-2016 at 11:33am
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The igniter will have a minimum coil resistance spec. So the best case is to actually measure the coil resistance, and add the resistor to match. On boats where this is ignored, I've witnessed the Voltmeter actually bounce at idle in proportion to RPM. Followed in a few seasons by the symptoms above. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: May-27-2016 at 12:08pm
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GottaSki, I am with you, will read up on full documentation of wiring for my setup and confirm. Alright, so ready for the weekend I guess. New ignition coil and resistor in place already, Have a replacement ignition module on stand-by. I still have in the back of my mind this dang fuel filter housing. That is literally the only thing that changed over the winter. Its a more modern housing to allow for more modern fuel filter. I wonder if my mechanic did not know what he was doing and we now have a part that the rest of the fuel system does not know how to behave with. Thanks for all the feedback everyone, I appreciate it and will keep you all posted. |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: May-27-2016 at 12:34pm
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You're right to suspect whatever was last touched. I even like to test each replacement item or group items with a run test between procedures just to prevent troubleshooting difficulties. I like to do all the new stuff in Spring each year rather than Fall so that I can prove out each new item. For example I won't go and replace all plugs, wires, Cap and rotor, fuel filters, or impeller and t-stat at once. I might group a few together. A bad wire or defective plug or defective new pump is easier to troubleshoot if you start briefly between replacements. Just my preference. Adds a little time but can save much more. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: May-27-2016 at 12:36pm
| bypassing the fuel filter is rather simple........ |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: May-27-2016 at 6:35pm
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Could also run it from a small can - to rule out the entire fuel supply chain.before pump. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: May-27-2016 at 6:42pm
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Good points, will consider for sure. This afternoon I called Pertronix Support and briefly explained the situation and to confirm my model number and the proper wiring for it. I got what I asked for (correct wiring diagram), but he also mentioned the symptoms sounded like a drop in voltage to the coil. Suggested when the issue occurs to connect coil directly to battery (temporary only) and see if issue persists. Interesting thought... if its clean then I have to play the wire tracing game to find the problem spot. Will be troubleshooting my head off this weekend and will report back. Thanks again everyone. |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: May-29-2016 at 7:36pm
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Alright....on the water....here is what has been happening... Arrived Saturday morning, got boat in water. Started up fine. Idled to gas dock, put 10 gallons in, started up again fine, idled away from gas dock STALLED! Started right back up, cruising at 20mph, split second loss of power, but did not stall out, made it to dock. Let sit, and then started troubleshooting. Was able to recreate the stall several times...sometimes I would have to wait a minute or 2 for it to restart, but I could usually get it to turn over. Confirmed that ignition system was wired properly and have a coil that meets requirements of the pertronix. For troubleshooting, I wired the positive terminal of the coil directly to the positive terminal of the battery. Starts up and runs. Have put 2.5 hours on it since, not stalling. Far from claiming victory (of at least isolating to a wiring issue between the dash and coil) becuase sometimes it would run without issue for days before cropping back up again. Also, I am disconnecting the coil when engine not started. So, all that said. Suggestions on what else may be beneficial to test? I just planning on continuing to run it like this for rest of weekend to see if it will stall with dash bypassed entirely for ignition power. Thanks again everyone and hope everyone's holiday is going well. |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: May-29-2016 at 11:35pm
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Sounds like you nailed it. could be ignition switch or breaker. It would be easy to pull a new wire to dash if that is what you need. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-30-2016 at 7:06am
Did you get any voltage readings? Although the problem may be intermittent, get the VOM out and see if you can detect a problem. Wiggle the ignition switch and the wiring connections. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: May-30-2016 at 9:27am
| Hey pbrainard, I do have a meter and have been doing my best to measure the voltage of the wire which is supposed to feed the ignition coil. Unfortunately, I have not noticed anything odd when wiggling, etc wires under the dash. It stays at 12.8 engine off and 13+ on. It's almost like a short or something. A split second of disruption...will keep trying.... And will keep it bypassed to see if it really does cease to exist with the dash bypassed. Thanks for the feedback! |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-30-2016 at 9:37am
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Bryon, Yes, intermittent electrical problems can be a real PITA. A real high end VOM would come in handy to record any voltage drops. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: May-30-2016 at 9:52am
| Agreed. I have 2 cheap ones and have been concerned with incorrect readings. I guess 2 cheap ones do not equate to one accurate one. Will get a nice one asap to help with this one. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-30-2016 at 10:58am
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Bryon, There are times when I prefer an analog VOM over a digital. Digitals unless they are the high end recording type, are slow to react so you won't see a momentary change in the reading. With an analog even the cheap ones, if you are watching, you will see a momentary blip in the needle movement. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: June-01-2016 at 11:57pm
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Well, the once successful bypassing of the dash (connecting coil directly to battery) did not live long. Had a nasty episode of it not wanting to work on Tuesday morning...theory busted. I did confirm that I have a Prestolite EI (purple wire) and not a pertronix as I assumed. I got the replacement module previsouly posted... So, same situation....here is what I tried while the issue was occuring: - Connected coil directly to battery (no change) - Opened gas tank (just incase of back pressure) - Swapped out ignition module...would not even start (maybe i did not install right???) - disconnected auto choke (just a shot in the dark) Issue persisted regardless of hot or cold engine. However, if it stayed running longer than 2 minutes, then I was good for a solid outting...if it misbehaves, it does it within a few seconds of starting up. Again, will stall regardless of RPMs, in gear, out of gear, Running out of ideas to check/confirm, borderline ready to throw parts at it (kidding), but really at a loss.... |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: June-02-2016 at 11:32pm
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An in-line spark tester tool like this would be helpful to you. You can leave it connected for a while, till you sort things out. Then, at least you'll know if you're getting spark when it's not starting: https://store.snapon.com/Spark-Plug-Tools-In-Line-Spark-Tester-Blue-Point--P641969.aspx" rel="nofollow - https://store.snapon.com/Spark-Plug-Tools-In-Line-Spark-Tester-Blue-Point--P641969.aspx |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: June-03-2016 at 12:20am
| Nice. Will pick one up. Thanks for the input. |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: June-07-2016 at 11:35pm
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Alright, so here's the update from this past weekend. The issue occurred more frequently than before, almost with every start. Sometimes it would occur only two or three times, and then would stay running. I did notice that now when the issue occurs I have to wait at least one minute sometimes two before the boat will turn over. This is a new development as I used to be able turn the boat back over again immediately when it occurred. Most interesting was the final run of the day, I tried over the course of an hour to get it to stay running, it would consistently start but then stalled within a minute. Needing to get the boat back to the marina I decided I would go in 1 minute increments. So I turned it over idled away from the dock, it died. Waited two minutes and it started back up then I floored it. Surprisingly I made it all the way to the marina without it dying, but the second I brought it back down to idle it stalled on me. Waited two minutes then it started back up and I was able to make it to the dock. Thoughts!? This just gets more and more odd. I do have a new coil, ignore module, and spark tester ready for next weekend...but really starting to think about other systems... |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: June-08-2016 at 12:58am
| Did you get the igniter/module to work? |
Posted By: Bri892001
Date Posted: June-08-2016 at 1:36am
This does raise one question, are you sure your choke is consistently opening? It's an easy check. When you give it wide open throttle, it mechanically forces open the choke, whether the choke has opened electrically or not. When you say it ran great at WOT, it made me think of this. |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: June-08-2016 at 11:49am
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Hey tryathlete, When I first installed the replacement ignition module, it did not work...I later learned that I did not properly space the sensor though. I am trying to find the original instructions for the Prestolite EI to confirm that and wiring setup, etc. No luck...anyone out there happen to have a copy? Bri892001, That is what my mind went to as well...I'm no expert on carbs and auto chokes, etc. but I bet a little internet research will at least tell me what I should be watching for. The saga continues... Thanks everyone for the feedback and help. |
Posted By: desertskier
Date Posted: June-08-2016 at 12:25pm
| http://documents.holley.com/mallory_instructions_unilite_distributor_37_38_45_47.pdf" rel="nofollow - Prestolite instructions |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: June-08-2016 at 12:28pm
| I had a situation like your stalling once and it turned out to be a sticking needle valve in the carb. I do like the thoughts about the choke. You can see that with your own eyes if you take off the flame arrestor. Now you have the Prestolite instructions and maybe even a spark tester to boot. Your going to win this soon. |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: June-09-2016 at 5:59pm
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Quick Update...I had the mechanic at the marina take a look at the boat today. He is stating that when the issue occurs (stalls) and when they try to restart it, it does not have spark. So, back to the ignition module we go. I have the prestolite EI (purple wire), and got a module second hand...mechanic is stating it will not spark with the replacement module. They are trying to confirm gap now for the sensor... That said and prematurely assuming that I do not have a prestolite module replacement I can get since they are not made...recommendations? |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: June-09-2016 at 6:06pm
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So your current Prestolite module is failing (purple wire) Replacement module is garbage (brand unkown) Options: Original points (availability?) New module: Mallory Pertronix New/used electronic distributor Prestolite NOS (availability?) Mallory DUI |
Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: June-09-2016 at 6:09pm
| Now is your chance to upgrade to DUI. Get 'ER Done. |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: June-09-2016 at 6:12pm
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Hollywood, yes you are correct in my current situation. I do not have the Original Points, long gone with a previous owner. So if I understand you, I can put a Mallory or pertronix module in direct replacement of the prestolite module without any other changes needed (same coil, same dist., same rotary, etc.) Assuming the correct part number, etc. OR, I buy a complete system entirely. Just confirming I understand...certainly like the "opportunity' as tryathlete put it :) |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: June-09-2016 at 6:21pm
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Not sure on the coil, reference the instructions. You may need to reincorporate the ballast resistor. There are multiple versions of the Pertonix FlameThrower (I, II, more?). Lots of complaintes with the Pertronix, not sure they are all legit claims though. I would probably seek the Mallory conversion then an entirely new electronic distributor. An original [points] coil will still want power through a ballast resistor but the EI module will want 12V. This is how my 351W (Prestolite conversion) came to us wired as well as the 454 (Mallory conversion). The 351W has some kind of MSD blaster coil, probably low resistance(<1ohm), and the 454 has the original coil, probably low resistance (<1ohm). I can measure the 454 coil tonight but the ignitions systems were originally wired identically. Basically you always want 1.5 ohm AFTER the coil (ballast + primary coil winding) AND 12V to the ignitor on most conversions. I think the damage typically done when you ditch the ballast AND use a low resistance coil (<1ohm). This will burn up both the coil and the ignitor eventually. SNobsessed and I both have the Prestolite ignitor conversion. He does not use a ballast resistor. I can't remember what coil resistance he as. I DO use a ballast resisitor. If I have a low resistance coil and he has a high resistance coil we are both wired up OK. My boat has been this way for 15 years and his about 10 so I think we have different coils. ANYWAY, I got a DUI for my 351W so this converted distributor is going on the shelf eventually... |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: June-09-2016 at 7:48pm
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Hollywood, I hear you loud and clear and it makes sense. By pure coincidence, I had my mechanic and Vince from SKIDIM call at the same time so we all got on a call together a few minutes ago. Through some troubleshooting we further confirmed that the ignition module seems to be at fault and my replacement module purchased second hand is dead. As luck would have it, Vince had an original, prestolite conversion kit in box. It was for a 4 cylinder, but he confirmed the module was identical as those used in the 8 cylinder. So he is shipping that bad boy to us for replacement. We also got a new coil (link below) for good measure. Based on your reply Hollywood, I need to determine if I need to put the ballast resistor inline or bypass...will see what I can determine. Greatly appreciate all the input guys, a wealth of information and help. Thank-you and I will keep everyone posted on what happens. http://www.skidim.com/COIL-ELECTRONIC-IGNITION/productinfo/R117004B/ |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: June-18-2016 at 10:20pm
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Alright, so finally at the lake. This morning I installed a new coil (linked in previous post), and original prestolite ignition module (complements of Vince at skidim), and a new rotary (just for good measure). It fired up and I had two good test runs today. Not claiming victory as the issue was so random, but have fingers crossed. I did want to ask about the coil. I bypassed the ballast resistor as indicated in the prestolite instructions. But that thing gets hot! Is that normal? The instructions seem to indicate that a lower resistance coils with a bypassed resistor is what is needed. Thoughts? |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: June-19-2016 at 11:28pm
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I recommend following HW's advice & using ballast resistor for coil but feeding purple distributor wire full 12V. I will be changing mine soon too. I was given bad advice & somehow luckily avoided calamity. Glad you got it running. Vince at SkiDim is a great guy as you now know. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: June-20-2016 at 12:53am
| What is the primary resistance of that coil?? If its getting blazing hot you should probably keep the ballast resistor. |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: June-21-2016 at 8:18am
| It's a low resistance coil, I believe 1.5. I will measure for sure this weekend. Also appreciate the advice of putting ballast resistor back in place, and running ignition module directly to 12 volt source. I may be over thinking it...or have a really dainty hands. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: June-21-2016 at 10:51am
No, a burning hot coil is NOT normal! So the instructions say bypass the resistor but if the coil gets not don't bypass the resistor? Rhetorical question, the Prestolite instructions (or lack there of) suck. The Prestolite has 2 wires. One tach one RESISTED voltage. The Mallory has 3 wires. One ground, one full 12V and one RESISTED voltage. Why are you risking burning up yet another module by wiring it the same way as before?
Well then use the ballast. That is the same as the factory Prestolite coils that all used ballast resistors.
This makes as much sense as eating ice cream on a diet. |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: June-21-2016 at 11:11am
| Got it. Put resistor back in line leave all other connections as they are. Sorry, was not aware the prestolite instructions were that off base and misunderstood previous post on wiring. Hopefully no permanent damage done...only ran new ign module 1.6 hours without ballast. Will correct before next run. Thanks for the help. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: June-23-2016 at 5:38pm
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MSD coils are .7 ohm. Pertronix Flame-Thrower II coil is .6 ohm. I'd really call these low resistance coils. The #1223 coil from skidim [COIL IGNITION (FORD/GM) STANDARD IGN. Point Type Ignitions (Used with external resistance)] is advertised as 1.5 ohm. This is basically a stock replacement for the original Prestolite coils used with points & ballast resistors. Skip to the #1230 PCM PowerPlus coil [COIL ELECTRONIC IGNITION c/o Prestolite, Mallory or Pertronix Breakerless Electronic Ignition System] does not have an advertised resistance. I have one however and measured 1.5 ohm. So, there is no difference between this one and the first one, besides being $10 cheaper. The whole business with bypassing a resistor for conversions is to get 1.5 ohm resistance (relied on solely from the STOCK coil) for the Prestolite (purple wire) EI conversion module. Sorta the same thing for the Mallory conversion, except it wants both full 12V (red wire) AND 1.5 ohm resisted supply (black/green wire). Stock points setup gets .8 ohm resistor + 1.5 ohm coil. Situation 1: Burnt ignition module If bypass your ballast resistor and you use a low resistance coil (MSD or Pertronix) with a Prestolite or Mallory conversion you'll burn up the module. (SNobsessed is currently proving me wrong on this however). Failed modules make for sporatic running before complete failure. Situation 2: Hot coil Stock Prestolite, #1230 from skidim or PCM PowerPlus coils will burn up if you bypass the resistor. The points can take the lessened resistance (a total of 1.5ohm) but the coils cannot take the full 12V. Result is poor running warm/hot engine, runs fine cold. Situation 3: Upgraded coil with points (hasn't seemed to be an issue here) MSD and Pertronix coils can take 12V, unresisted. However, when running points and a low resistance coil MSD recommends adding in a .8 ohm ballast resistor, netting a 1.5 ohm total resistance. A low resistance coil only will probably burn up your points pretty fast. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: June-23-2016 at 6:33pm
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Well explained! So, taken one step further in explanation, why do these low-resistance coils exist? In an MSD system, the coil is whacked multiple times with a 400- 500V primary spike, but its capacitive discharge design and the duty cycle on the coil is extremely short. In a points or igniter system, the coil is sinking current for a relatively long period to GND keeping the magnetic field energized, and when grounded by the points or igniter, the mag field collapses and the secondary produces a single high voltage spike due to the abrupt delta-Gause. The dwell is basically the duty cycle of the coil conducting this current and holding the field live. Hence the extra heat that develops when the total system resistance is too low. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: June-23-2016 at 9:24pm
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Hollywood, greatly appreciate the time in explaining the situation and scenarios. I do indeed have the PCM coil (number 1230 from SKIDIM) and the Prestolite Conversion (with recently replaced ign. module) so will proceed with the recommendation of getting that ballast resistor back in place before the next run. GottaSki, right on. My novice mind would have expected the opposite of "extra heat that develops when the total system resistance is too low" but there you have it...makes sense. Thanks again to you both for your direction through this, I appreciate it. |
Posted By: Trader144
Date Posted: June-28-2016 at 1:17am
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Here is what I did to remedy my issue: 1. Add new dash to engine ground 2. Replace coil with a new one 3. Replace alternator (possible voltage regulator issue even though it charges) 4. Clean every possible electrical connection on the engine with a dremel tool, and I mean every one 5. Replace ignition and other key switch/breakers with new ones - and add new wire connectors 6. Replace deep cycle battery with standard car battery 7. Clean the big engine breaker connections on the back and the transmission neutral switch connections 6 hours later back on the lake better than ever. |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: June-28-2016 at 12:10pm
wow, talk about a parts changer!
Again, this won't fix the issue if you're using the wrong coil from the get go. 
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Posted By: 1989sn2001_985
Date Posted: July-07-2016 at 4:51pm
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Alright guys, so I put the ballast resistor back in place this past weekend. Ran it for about 10 hours over the course of 6 days and all good...no issues. So final items replaces include: new prestolite ignition module, new pcm ignition coil, new ballast resistor, new distributor and new rotary. I agree with you all that coil and module were main items at fault. Hopefully will keep running like a champ. I greatly appreciate the feedback and help, I could not have done it without you all and I learned a lot. Thanks again and if you see me post to this thread again, it bad news ;) |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: July-07-2016 at 4:55pm
| Yay. |