Starter problem?
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Boat Maintenance
Forum Discription: Discuss maintenance of your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39401
Printed Date: November-16-2024 at 12:36pm
Topic: Starter problem?
Posted By: kylem428
Subject: Starter problem?
Date Posted: July-20-2016 at 6:50pm
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Okay all, ? For you... This year and last I've been having some close calls with the boat starting - 94 sport with 5.8l pro boss - carb'd and converted to electronic distributor from pro Tec. The problem I am having I think is either low voltage based / battery alternator, or starter. What is happening is that the boat will crank just fine when cold but when she warms up and I turn the key, sometimes the starter will rotate the engine maybe a half rotation then won't go any more. If I hold the key maybe it will spin further and maybe not. A few times flipping the key and I can usually get it to fire but it almost seems the starter is having a tough time overcoming the compression. Voltage at the dash is usually 11.5-12. 12.5. Across the battery terminals, and the battery tested well, so I'm maybe thinking starter, but I'm also wondering if my alternator isn't a little weak given that I rarely ever have more than 12.5 volts at the gauge. That said, my hydrophase cruise module has a digital volt meter when I turn off the engine and it commonly reads 12.8 or so, so maybe wiring to the volt meter is questionable. I haven't measured any voltage drop when starting so I can't speak to that. Also, engine runs at about 170 degrees as of this season so I am replacing the thermostat tomorrow (new 142 deg Tstat from Napa) Any thoughts? Some day it's not gonna crank and I'm going to be stuck. I'd like to avoid that if at all possible. Thank you Kyle |
Replies:
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-20-2016 at 7:04pm
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Kyle, Do check for the volts at the starter when attempting to crank to give you an idea if there is a drop. Hard starting when hot can also be a timing problem. Have you checked it? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: kylem428
Date Posted: July-20-2016 at 7:42pm
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Thanks Pete, I'll check voltage at the starter. Also haven't checked the timing since I did the ignition work but Iirc I set it at ~10 btdc at the time and it has run like a champ since! I do remember that members of this site recommended that timing advance as opposed to skidims suggestion of 5 btdc. I'll report back! Kyle |
Posted By: kylem428
Date Posted: July-20-2016 at 7:58pm
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On second thought, I remember that I checked the timing last year when this problem first started and it was still around 10 btdc. Anyway, the battery just read 12.7 at the terminals, and 12.34 at the main cable on the starter with the key on. Voltage dropped to 6.7 as I cranked for a while. I'm thinking I may need a battery... The one I have is a 4 year old interstate mt34. Thoughts?? Kyle |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-20-2016 at 10:45pm
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Kyle, With that amount of drop with the load of the starter, I don't feel you should even bother with having it load tested. It's time for a new battery! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: July-21-2016 at 4:26am
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5 degrees more timing is a huge jump in timing. If the cylinder fires too early it tries to blow the piston back down as you are trying to spin the piston up to start it. Back it off to 5 degrees and try it. If it solves your starting issue you can always bump it up 1 degree at a time till you find the happy spot where it runs great, does not rattle or ping and starts well. A good running engine can turn into a grenade by advancing the timing 2 degrees more than advised. They will run better right up to the point where detonation takes off and starts breaking parts internally. You never want to do that. If you tune it right to the edge on timing you may have issues just by changing brands of fuel. They are all not the same. This is a good reason for staying a little on the conservative side for timing. You are boating not drag racing. In a boat you always want it to start and perform flawlessly so you are not stranded. Drag racing you tune to the very edge of safety trying to win. Tune to run in the world you are running in. The amount of power you will find between 5 and 10 degrees of timing wont vary by 10 horsepower but 5 degrees may be safe and 10 may bust parts. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: July-21-2016 at 11:55am
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I concur these symptoms are exactly like too much initial timing. Its not the compression, its the too-early rapid expansion of burning gasses the starter is working against. A DC motor is a direct short at 0rpm, so that big voltage drop is expected. Get a light on it very soon. 10 initial will not frag an engine, but if it results in having more than 35-36 final (on a 351), then you can put holes in pistons. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: kylem428
Date Posted: July-21-2016 at 1:04pm
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So it doesn't seem to be the battery. I had my dad over this am and he helped me voltage test and I had voltage drop to 9.8 at battery and at the starter when cranking so there's plenty there (from 12.6 or so resting). I think my connections were poor before tryin to do it all myself. I Talked to Vince at skidim about starter problems and we got to talking about the pro Tec conversion and how they recommend 5 degrees btdc timing initial and the advance should be 22 btdc at about 4200 rpm and I should time it for WOT and then the initial will be what it is. I guess I'll start there and hope maybe it solves my issue! Thanks! Kyle |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: July-21-2016 at 1:23pm
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5-22deg, wtf? On a carb'd ford Windsor? That's a recipe for horrendous performance IMHO. I'd aim for at least 32 final, preferably 34-36. My fords all stumble and underperform with anything less than 10 initial, I normally aim for 12. 14 usually doesn't cause problems either... so long as you stay under 36 final. |
Posted By: kylem428
Date Posted: July-21-2016 at 1:42pm
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Hey Tim it's a PCM 5.8 pro boss HO carb'd and converted from pro Tec to distrib. With the Mallory electronic distrib. Vince was saying that all different diatribs have diff initial timing but that engine/ distrib should be timed at WOT for 22 deg. Advance. The kit recommended 5 btdc initial but I changed it to 10 based on others recommendations. Maybe that is the root of my starting issue. I'd like to chat through this with someone if you'd be willing to call me - 715-550-5953. I borrowed a timing light and am ready to go do something but it seems like there's no right answer... Thoughts?? Kyle |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-21-2016 at 1:48pm
Tom, I happen to disagree. Kyle's battery is a 700 CCA. With a 350 amp draw from the starter for 15 seconds any voltage drop below about 9.5 is unacceptable. He got 6.7 and it sounds like that was immediate! Also, regarding the "direct short", you are forgetting the resistance of the windings.  Kyle, Take the battery into O'Riely's (notice I didn't recommend Autozone and O'Riely's is only a couple more blocks!!) and have them put it on their load tester just to see what the results are. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
GottaSki wrote:Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: July-21-2016 at 1:55pm
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I have/had run prestolites, Mallory's and DUI's... Can't imagine what the heck Vince means by different distributors having different initial timing specs. All a dizzy can control is the amount of advance and the rate at which it comes in (in addition to the spark distribution). Initial/final timing is engine specific and not dizzy specific, unless I am missing something? Nothing in the 5-10deg (initial) range should be causing hard starting. I've never seen a Ford bothered before mid-teens. I think this is a battery/cable/starter issue. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: July-21-2016 at 2:03pm
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No, I didn't forget the windings. nor the brushes. At 0 RPM, there is no delta-Magfield to induce reluctance on the winding, so its basically connecting a spool of copper wire across the battery at about 2 ohms per thousand feet. For brevity I excluded the words 'pretty much' prior to 'direct short' so much for brevity... Back to timing... 2yle don't interpret Vince as saying 22 advance means 22 final Initial is set where you position the distributer, its not 'in' the distributer. 10 initial plus 22 advance equals 32 final, which is still conservative by 2-3 degrees. Tim is characteristically spot on, set initial 10-12 degrees and check final not to exceed 35 for peace of mind, and go skiing. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: kylem428
Date Posted: July-21-2016 at 2:15pm
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Okay timing is around 9-10 initial and between 20-35 at WOT. Thinking that's fine. Will take battery to oreilley to have load tested. Otherwise probably a weak starter? Thanks Kyle |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: July-22-2016 at 1:05am
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Kyle, you need to know how much advance you have at 3,000 RPM and when your advance stops advancing. A set back timing light will let you do this test or they sell tape you can put on your harmonic balancer that allows you to test this with a standard timing light. As a couple have advised your max power will be achieved if you hit 35 degrees at wide open throttle but that much advance can't happen at lower RPM or things start going really bad. First verify using the timing light that your distributor advance is actually working well. From idle to 3,000 RPM you should see the timing advance slowly and smoothly as you slowly and smoothly bring the throttle up. IF it is jumpy or sticky your weights are rusty and need cleaned inside the distributor. Very common in boats. If it s smooth you need to record what it is doing for you and when it is happening. Make a chart and write down the results of your test. Start at idle, record the Timing, then you need to know 1,000, 1,500, 2,000, 2,500, 3,000 and then keep going to 4,000 just to see where it stops advancing. Most are all done by 3,500 but you need to know what yours does and how much it gives you if you want full performance. If your distributor only gives you 22 degrees advance your idle timing will need to be set at 13 to get your high speed timing up to 35, 13 +22= 35. If your distributor gives you only 15 degrees you are in trouble and will need to have it fixed. If the timing advances all 22 degrees by 2,000 RPM that also is a problem as it is coming in too fast. Stronger springs in the distributor advance can slow that down. Some times springs rust and break or just get weak. Timing is just math, see what you have and adjust to get what works well. If idle timing is 5 and 2,000 RPM timing is 27 it came in to fast. There are companies that will re curve a distributor to exactly what you want or you can test yours, see what you have and see if it will work. It may be perfect as is and just needs an adjustment. As other stated your issue may be in the electrical. I like to have the timing all advanced by 3,000 but in boats we work them hard and to keep them safe they continue to advance some all the way to 4,000 and hold them back a little at 3,000. If timing comes in too early or advances too high it will rob power and can as others mentioned even break pistons, piston rings and blow head gaskets.. Do it right and be safe. Sorry to be wordy but I hope this helps. |
Posted By: kylem428
Date Posted: August-14-2016 at 11:14am
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So update on this- as I mentioned, the initial and advance timing checked out when I got the light. I didn't have it long enough to check timing at varying ramps to develop a curve but I did do something else. I had been Noticing the boat running a little on the hotter side consistently - 180 degrees or so, so I decided to replace the Tstat with a 143 ordered through my local Napa. After that, boat runs around 150 and the starter issues have disappeared. Hard for me to believe that 30 degrees of heat soak is going to have that effect on a starter, But it seems to have for now. I'll keep you all posted as to whether they reappear. Thanks! Kyle |
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: August-14-2016 at 12:04pm
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Great advice from MrMcD. Dude knows his stuff. I'm a shade-tree mechanic, so I like to confirm my diagnosis and fixes with the real mechanics on this site. Vince at SkiDim is usually a great source, but in this case, I think that he might me be a little off. If the engine is a ProBross "PLP" then it is that "high output" 351 W. Initial timing for a carb version is, indeed, 10 degrees BTDC. Max advance should be 32 degrees BTDC at wide open throttle. That comes directly from the PCM engine manual specs for the PLP carb engine. What type of distributor was used in the Pro-Tech conversion? On the temperature side, I've seen where a too-warm engine struggles to turn over due to metal expansion binding up the engine a bit. Also, heat can impact starter performance. JQ ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: jhersey29
Date Posted: August-23-2016 at 1:12am
| Your positive and/or negative battery cable is bad. When it heats up it is expanding at the clamping area and the connection is compromised. Cut off the ends and replace with bolt on ends or just run new battery cables. To test this take jumper cables straight to the starter to by pass the cables. If she cranks fine with jumper cables then your cables are definitely bad. Jumper cables are also hard to get on the starter correctly when they have small connectors. You might not be able to jump the 2 bolts necessary with jumper cables. |