90 SN 351 idle problem
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4046
Printed Date: November-27-2024 at 11:23am
Topic: 90 SN 351 idle problem
Posted By: Kylecraft
Subject: 90 SN 351 idle problem
Date Posted: July-03-2006 at 2:49pm
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I am having consistent problems with this boat and don't know what to do.
I've replaced the tranny, starter, battery, coil, new conv. to elec. ignition, comp. test last year that was great. so up til now I thought all I needed was a carb rebuild; not so sure now, but I will order one from dim this week. at idle the boat will stall when it gets warm; there's little to no oil pressure at idle whether in gear or not. Other than this the boat runs great at speed. so I turned up the idle speed to compensate. Now with the idle speed set high I seem to be getting gas on the dipstick and I am burning more fuel and you can smell it and see it in the water (don't know if its related) Other problem that is connected is the choke seems to stick so when you go to start it sometimes you have to pull the arrestor off and open the choke manually - starts right up and no problems running it after that. It will also start right up usually if you turn it off for just a few minutes, more than that and you have to open the choke manually again... other problem is the linkage seems to stick so when you go to start it from time to time it wont turn over at all - the guages work and all you have to do is fiddle with the throttle back and forth and its fine - I know its the linkage, how do I fix it and would it contribute to my choke and fuel problems? so just a recap, I know its a long one and any help is much appreciated. 1. poor idle 2. fuel in crankcase 3. throttle linkage - wont start |
Replies:
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: July-03-2006 at 3:19pm
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Kyle,
You're getting gas on the dipstick? Oh man. I hate to be the bearer of bad news and I hope I am wrong but based on what you are saying I'm betting on a bad head gasket. This could be the reason for the bad idle and the mixing of oil, what appears to be gasoline, and water. I suspect your "throttle linkage - wont start" problem is a minor adjustment of your neutral safety switch on your tranny. This is an easy fix. We'll see what others say about the oil and fuel problem. As to low oil pressure at idle, I'm a little stumped here. My first thought would be a faulty oil pump but you just never see those go bad. Combined with your other problems maybe you only have a gasket or sealing problem somewhere allowing oil and fuel to mix and pass into a water passage - but I can't imagine where or how. Sounds bad guy. Of course if the block is cracked a bad head gasket would be good news. If it where mine, I'd pull the heads and see what I could see. First, pull you spark plugs and look for fouling and evidence of water. Make note of which cylinder the fouled plugs came out of. This will help point you to the right area when inspecting your block and heads. If after you pull your intake you see obvious evidence of leakage around the intake you may not have to pull your heads. ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: July-03-2006 at 3:31pm
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Another thought for the CCFan research dept., would a cracked or broken ring result in a mixing of fuel and oil? Would his compression test indicate a cracked or broken ring? ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: July-03-2006 at 3:52pm
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yeash, lots of problems, but I smell a blown powervalve or drippy float needle ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-04-2006 at 12:09am
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thanks for the quick replies everyone.
as far as the gas in the oil; would this rear its head even if compression tested normal? could some kind of hydro-lock cause this problem? a bad seal or clocked vent maybe? I have a sneaking suspicion its carb related, but obviously I'm being optimistic. I don't know for sure if there's gas on the dipstick. I changed the oil on saturday and ran the boat for 3-4 engine hours all weekend. It ran great save for the poor idle and choke sticking. The oil is dark in color now and dirty, and smelled like gas I thought, but not sure. Its quaker state synthetic 10w30 which I haven't used before (only used reg. 10w30). I checked the dipstick a number of times on sat and sun to make sure I had enough oil in the case and couldn't even see it on the stick; it was so clear. Then after an hour or 2 on the water yesterday and today (monday) the oil is dirty??? any other hints? I am having my mech. look at it this week and although he is better than I at these kind of things (I did have a 79 supreme with a 351 for 7 years) he is in business and I am not... all help is graciously appreciated. cheers, KC |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: July-04-2006 at 12:25am
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Quaker State Synthetic! YIKES!!!! ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-04-2006 at 12:38am
haha funny Since I got this boat I thought the worst from the get go; blown case, block, trans, etc.. The engine runs hard, so I hardly think its blown (I've never "blown" a 4 stroke motor b4; only 2stroke), but you never know I guess.
this boat has been a nightmare; at least 7k so far into it and I bought it for 14k CAD 4 years ago. It is a nice boat, just neglected badly and I am the bearer of the abuse. The hull is still very strong as well so once I get the motor worked out and some renew graphics it will run mint  just gotta get to the bottom of it
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Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: July-04-2006 at 10:27am
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I guess we'll wait and see what your mech says. ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: David F
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 11:13am
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Kylecraft:
My thoughts: 1. Your carb is flooding the engine, hence the poor idle. May be choke AND/OR needle valve related. 2. The excess fuel in the cylinders (when engine not running) is seeping past the rings and contaminating the oil with fuel. A new carb or rebuild of the one you have will fix problem. Do it soon, or the excess fuel in the cyliners will contribute to excessive cylinder wall wear and loss of compression (the fuel washes the oil off the cylinder walls). 3. The linkage issue is common. Fine adjust the linkage at the transmission end. The neutral safety switch is preventing the starter from operating due to the misadjustment. 4. Low oil pressure at idle could simple be a faulty sending unit or poor electical connections. How low is low? 20psi on a warm engine I have seen before. Good luck. ------------- |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 11:34am
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David, thank you for the response.
You seem to have a good take on the situation. I'm almost positive the carb has never been rebuilt and now with the choke sticking it makes sense that its letting fuel pass directly into the combusiton chamber. I'm not positive, but it smelled like gas on the dipstick although I couldn't tell visually or by touch if there was gas in it. I turned up the idle speed to compensate for the stall at idle and when you put it in gear. This of course causes increased stress on the tranny but the boat will only get an hour or 2 of use like this until the carb is rebuilt. the oil pressure backs off to around 10psi when I put it in gear with the idle set as it is. once you return it to neutral 20-30psi is average, and I don't get more than 40psi at speed. When the idle is set down (when the boat stalls out) the oil pressure is very low and the idiot light comes on; if you rev it up in neutral or increase the speed of the boat the light goes off and the oil pressure comes back above 20psi. any other insight is greatly appreciated thanks, Kyle |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 12:17pm
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have you set the timing correctly? if it's off then you've been waisting your timing messing with the carb and have to start over. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 12:19pm
| yes timing is good. New electronic conv. last year. |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 12:32pm
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so what is it set at? just because you set it last year doesn't mean it's correct now. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 12:50pm
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not sure what its set at, but its not timing related. This is a problem I've had since the boat was new. I may have gone about it backwards by doing the ignition before the fuel system, but changing to elec ing. was cheap and easy. I will double check the timing to be sure it is set correctly, and we did look at it before the boat hit the water this summer.
I have no doubts this is a carb/fuel system problem, possibly worst case is the head gasket or blown case, but I find it unlikely with the way this boat runs. Once again its a idle problem we've had since we got the boat. new timing, starter, tranny, full diagnostic last summer including compression test. If anyone can elaborate on David's response I am leaning towards what he has said as to what is going on with this boat. thanks, Kyle |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 1:23pm
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in other words you realy don't have a clue on the order of things and how the engine should be set and that your idle starts with the timing and idle mixture screws and idle screw in that order.
you have to set the timing and dwell, if points, then you adjust the idle mixture screws and then you adjust base idle, then you adjust the accel pump and choke if needed. Your just shooting in the dark guessing at crap, otherwise you wouldn't be dicking around with items that would effect the whole rpm range and not just base idle. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 1:36pm
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I don't think your above post is fair. I've stated all that I can as to what I've done with this boat. I'm just looking for a little help. I realize the importance of proper timing and I'm telling you that the timing is fine and it was handled first and this idle problem has been around before and after the timing was set and the points were junked.
I proably should have had the carb rebuilt first but it is a lot more work that I can't do and its a lot more $$$. I did the conv myself and have done it before on my old boat that was a 79supreme. I also replaced the coil and have inspected all the plug wires. I am not a mechanic but have dealt with the 351 a fair bit in the last 10 years. I don't know if you are a cowboy or not, but the fact that every other member who has posted on here says carb, leads me to believe its a carb problem; just as I suspected initially and what my mechanice who builds raceboats told me. He doesn't work with pcm ever other than my boat so I wanted to see what everyone else thought about this situation. I thank everyone for all the help so far. However, I would appreciate more empathy from a senior member. ------------- |
Posted By: tommer12
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 1:37pm
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Check out this link.
http://www.recarbco.com/technical/newtrouble.html I find it pretty helpful |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 1:52pm
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did you re-time the engine when you installed the E-conversion? if not then the timing is correct. Did you read the instructions for the kit and by-pass the ballast resistor or by a coil with an internal resistor according to the instructions of the kit?
your problem is a vaccum leak, timing and/or carb issue and if cann't find the leak, or the timing is off then dicking with the carb is going to do nothing until they are fixed. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 1:57pm
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conv was done to spec. there is no timing problem currently; it has been checked over by a third party as well.
the choke is sticking on start up so I have to open it manually to start. I may be getting gas either on the dipstick or out the exhaust, regardless I'm burning more fuel than usual. btw that link is great tommer! ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 2:09pm
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so the choke needs replaced, if your getting gas in the oil then you have a manifold leak which is also your vaccum leak.
so what is the timing since it been triple checked? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 2:12pm
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don't know what the timing is I don't have the boat in front of me. ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 2:18pm
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sure sounds like it's been a while, or your memory is short ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 2:19pm
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it is short, so is my patience... ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 2:30pm
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you've been pretty patient standing in the wind pissing on your self for a long time fighting a idle issue and doing a compression test trying to fix it. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 2:37pm
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maybe you should read my posts before you hijack this thread.
what's wrong with doing a comp test on a 16 year old boat with issues? If it showed a problem then a lot of the work that has been done would have been useless. The test was done because there was a lock in the motor a few years ago as well as tranny issues so it was done to rule out certain problems ie. blown motor. how many times do I have to say the ignition system is not the problem - you kept saying adjust your timing for points yet in my first post I stated I converted it to elec.  I appreciate your help, but your negativity is starting to wear on my already lacking patience... ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 2:48pm
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My point is you have no clue and realy should take it to someone that does. Obviously your not smart enought to figure out that the choke is screwed up, amoung otherthings, and can't figure out why your using so much gas and it won't idle. How the hell can you adjust things proberly when you don't even fix the things right in front of your face that are screwed up. Why should I believe the timing is correct when you can't or anyone else that has worked on it for that matter, fixed the basic stuff and the things that should have been done first.
Till you fix the choke and the other issue with the carb your never going to have a good idle or gas consumption, so I hope your used to the smell by now. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 2:53pm
no crap, that's why I posted on this site. I'm not on here telling everyone how great my boat works.
the reason I stared this thread is because I am having problems and want to fix them. I'm looking for ideas and everyone except you has been a great help. can you please stop posting on this thread. thanks ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 3:01pm
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fix the choke and have the carb re-built or you can continue to listen the the idoits that have got you no where. How can you adjust the base idle with the choke on and screwed up. It doesn't run right because you have the carb all f**ked up and are dicking around with bullsh*t instead of fixing the obviuous.
The obvious, the choke does not disengage flooding the engine. I can not get a good idle because I have to have the idle so high it's off of the idle passage curcuit to compensate for the richness caused by the choke be screwed up. My gas consumption is screwed up because I can seem to fix the choke and would rather stick something down the carb to get it going. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 3:06pm
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once again, if you read my posts you would know that the boat is in the shop right now and a rebuild kit is ordered. I'm just trying to get other opionions on the problems I listed.
I have spoken with my mech about all of these issues so I'm on here just for other opinions. 1. in case the problems aren't fixed after the rebuild. 2. so I have an idea about what is happening so I can understand my mech and know what to watch out for in the future. ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 3:25pm
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if your mech doesn't fix it then you need to go to another mech that know what he's doing, because they haven't been very smart with it so far. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 4:01pm
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funny you mention that.
The mech its at right now has done very little to this boat. He installed the new starter and worked on it a few years ago when we had a vapor lock (float bowl problem if I recall). he is the type of mech that you have to spell out what you want him to do. He is very smart and does a good job, but also is very busy and if he fixes one problem he stops there unless you tell him that something else isn't right. Which is a reason I wanted to get other opinions so when I talk to him I can bring up other points or make suggestions and see what he says. what is funny is that I took the boat to the only correct craft dealer in ontario; Pride of Muskoka. They kept our boat for over 2 months from June until mid august for a new muffler and to fix the idle problem. This is a huge dealer for CC and our summer's are short (mid june-mid sept) I'm not going to get into it but these guys screwed us around more than I have ever seen by any business. I wrote CC and they were great, but our little pos 90 SN didn't mean squat to them or the 100s of new boats they sell. And as you can see I still have an idle problem. At that time they checked over everything (they said) but when I went directly to the mech that worked on the boat and bypassed the bs'ers at the front desk we went out together and he showed me how to perform a "poor mans tune up" by opening the choke and forcing some of the crap out of it. After a few grand and 2 months of sitting I never wanted to see or talk to them again. I will never buy a new CC because of these guys (they are the only dealer in ontario) and never recommend them to anybody for anything (not that they care, even though I'm involved in the provincial waterski assoc.). You're right about one thing, if my mech can't fix it this time I will try someone else. However, it is hard to find people that work on these boats around my area and I would do it all if I had the right tools and the time. thanks, Kyle ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 4:12pm
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you've done a lot of things you didn't need to and most dealer mechanics are fresh out of school and don't know anything. And maybe you have your terms wrong but what you do is close the choke butter fly plate while raising the rpm to flush the jets, not realy a tune-up at all or anything for that matter. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 4:15pm
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I do have my terms messed up.
the butterfly plate is closed at start up so it wont start; I have to pull the arrestor off and open it manually to fire it up. I was told that by closing it and revving up the motor is effectively a "poor mans tune up", and the mech wasn't fresh he was older and knew what was going on. Unfortunately he was probably being paid nothing and they wouldn't want him fooling around with us when he could be working on something else. ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 4:17pm
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And start looking for a new mechanic if he is not suggesting what else is wrong then you are either not letting him do his job and tell him specificly what to do or he's not diagnoising the problem and fix it correctly.
Most good mechanics will ask what problems you are having then tell you what all needs to be fixed, not you telling him what you want fixed, that's foolish because he is missing out on a lot of work by not fix the problem and only do what they are told to do. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 4:22pm
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ya he may be missing out, but he is very busy at this time of year. come september/october before snowmobiles he would be glad to take a lot of time.
I just tell him what problems we were having and he agreed that a carb rebuild is a good idea. He knows the choke is not working properly and that I thought gas was running through the motor. I will give him the benefit of the doubt until I get the boat back. If he fixes these problems he will continue to get my business for this boat and my other toys. I appreciate the help, and wish someone would have taken the time like you have to help when we were initially confronted with this problem. I just want to be on the water; I only get to go out on the weekends and there are so few anyways. ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 4:24pm
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I've been out once this year and it wasn't even in my boat. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 4:34pm
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boo hoo, if only it were a perfect world.
I used to coach and ski all summer long, now I stare onto a 12 lane highway! tis life I guess. Just sucks knowing when I go to pick up my boat it may not work properly. Its all I have to keep me sane...------------- |
Posted By: TerraNovaSkier
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 5:08pm
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Kylecraft,
I hope you get your problems worked out and get out on the water ASAP. I know the feeling of a short season as we have here in NL. Did you say you were involved with a PSO of WWC? I am the President of the PSO in NL and trying to get my '91 Nautique back in good working order as well. Lots to learn here for sure, along with the process of elimination for diagnosing problems! Good luck! ------------- 1991 Nautique owner |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-05-2006 at 5:54pm
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Thanks for the kind words! I've been involved in the Ontario Water Ski Association for over a dozen years as a volunteer, coach and compet*tor.
Where do you ski on the rock? ------------- |
Posted By: David F
Date Posted: July-06-2006 at 12:40pm
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Kylecraft:
Make sure and tell us how the carb repair works out for you. Don't worry too much about 79Nautique, he means well. One of his biggest hangups is timing being perfect. My experience tells me that timing, while important for a well running engine throughtout the rpm range is not so important in achieving a good idle. Sure, way advanced or retarded will greatly effect idle, but anything close to spec and it should idle relative good on the idle circuits. Again, your description tells me that the engine is flooding while on the idle circuits, so you have to introduce more air hence out of the idle circuits, to keep it from stalling. 79Nautique did mention vacuum leak as a possible cause, and I agree. So, look for obvious and not so obvious vacuum leak sources. One not so obvious is the manifold gaskets. Start by making sure all the manifold bolts are torqued to about 35 ft-lbs. Also, check the carburetor base gasket...but this will be done during the rebuild process. Basically, any air introduce below the carburetor is unmetered and hence will cause idle problems (usually unable to get it low enough). One other thing to remember is that carburetors on boats can and do corrode on the inside from water in the fuel. If this is the case, all the rebuilding in the world will not solve the problem for more than one or two uses (after rebuild). Bottom line is that the carb should be replaced. Once the corrosion starts, it never sleeps. Good luck and let us know how things turn out. ------------- |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-06-2006 at 1:25pm
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Thanks a lot, I will be sure to follow up here when its been done. I hope its all positive (fingers crossed).
I think you're right about the leak, and if replacing the carb is the solution then so be it. I will then have a new starter, muffler, tranny, and carb. I may need a new water pump, but its been good to me so far... ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-06-2006 at 1:28pm
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makesure that the spacer plate that goes under the carb is no warped and that you do not have a vaccum leak from the hose between the spacer plate and PCV valve. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: July-06-2006 at 3:56pm
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Ditto. I had a vaccum leak I couldn't seem to fix. When I laid my spacer plate on sand paper on the flattest floor I could find (as I recall I used a window pane I had in the garage), rubbing on the sand paper showed the spacer was warped. You couldn't otherwise see the warp with your eyes. ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: Jim_In_Houston
Date Posted: July-06-2006 at 4:03pm
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Also, you should adjust your carb after you set your timing - no way around it. ------------- Happy owner of a '66 and a '68 Mustang |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-10-2006 at 10:49am
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ok guys, had the boat out again this weekend as the parts had just come in on friday so no use in pulling everything off. My mech is going to pull the carb, soak it and put the kit in and then see if we can find out where we are losing oil pressure from.
so I noticed a few things. 1 is that there is no gas in the oil (good!). However the oil pressure seems to be getting worse as the motor warms up. When I fired up the boat on saturday it ran great; no oil light and pressure was right up to 30-40psi, until later in the day after an hour on it or so it started bogging out and the oil pressure dropped. It now sits around 20 when at skiing speed and really low at idle around 5-10psi - to the point where you have to rev it up to gain psi and turn the idiot light off. any extra thoughts on where we are losing pressure? If my mech doesn't fix it this week I am going to have to take it somewhere else or do it myself its getting too expensive. thx KC ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-10-2006 at 11:21am
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what weight oil are you using?
The only fix your going to have to fix the oil pressure issue is re-building the motor because the bearings are shot causing the lose of pressure. the only other thing that it could be is a bad sending unit, or a poorly grounded sending unit. but since it reads fine when cold I doubt it's bad. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-10-2006 at 11:25am
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10w30 synthetic oil.
------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-10-2006 at 11:44am
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that explains a lot, syn isn't very good with old motors,
try some 20w-50 non syn oil and that might help you out for a while but a re-build is in your future. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: July-10-2006 at 11:47am
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I agree with dumping the oil in there, your engine calls for staight 40w I believe. I don't think your pressure problems are too bad, just borderline when warm the oil change alone might work out.
-Joe. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-10-2006 at 11:50am
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thanks guys, this is the first time I've used sythetic. I've always used 10w30 in 351s including my 79supreme with no problems. and the oil pressure was never this bad.
I have my manual at home and I always thought straight 10w30. I will use regular oil and whatever it recommends for weight and then go from there. what are the differences with the 20w50, 10w40, etc? ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-10-2006 at 12:09pm
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the higher the the number the thicher/heavier the oil gets or is. If you had a lot of colder weather then the thicher oils can cause cold start issue like slower cranking speeds because the oil is thick cold then thins out when it gets hot. Since your engine appears to have some wear based upon the oil pressure reading I would go with a heavier oil and with the summer temps you won't have an issue. But I would use 20w-50 or straight 40 if you can find it. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-11-2006 at 1:08pm
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Thanks guys, got some 20w50 high temp oil that I'll put in er and see if it adds psi. If it doesn't, could there still be some kind of vacume leak that causes the pressure to drop as the motor heats up?
Worst case scenario being a rebuild of the crank bearings - how much time and how much $$$ would this cost me to have done by a pro? would an engine swap be more cost effective? ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-11-2006 at 1:14pm
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there is nothing that can be done beside replacing the bearing to improve oil pressurer unless the oil pump is shot, but they usually don't ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-11-2006 at 1:23pm
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Ya, I doubt the oil pump is shot if it gives good pressure when its not up to full temp; right? That said, how much does a full bearing job usually run? ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-11-2006 at 1:25pm
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it's called a re-built motor, you can get a short block or a long block 1,500-3,000+ depending on what your having done to it. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-11-2006 at 1:33pm
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so I can't pull the motor and just replace the bearings? I have to replace the whole block? my pistons I'm assuming are good because compression reads well. I'm assuming its the long block that I would need, but whats the difference? ------------- |
Posted By: tommer12
Date Posted: July-11-2006 at 1:53pm
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Not sure if this will work, but I have used the Engine Restore in my Jeep Wranglers and they have worked wonders. It increased my oil pressure everytime and sealed up anything that my have been leaking. I have had great sucess in in. Might be worth a try rather than pulling the engine.
Oh.. wait... to hear 79nautique chimming in knock this theory down? (just jokin 79nautique!) |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-11-2006 at 1:59pm
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it's a lot cheaper than a re-build and is a band-aid at best, it usually will only increase your compression, can't hurt, just add it when you put the heavier weight oil in it. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-11-2006 at 3:40pm
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I will buy some restore, any brand recommendations or ways to better add it?
I'm not going to jump the gun on the rebuild just yet. This all goes back to my idle issue, so we'll see what happens once my carb is rebuilt and my timing is perfect. I don't know if I can justify a rebuilt motor on this boat. If I can't get the pressure up any other way than I might just sell it and pass off the problems to someone else. thx ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: July-11-2006 at 4:22pm
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Kylecraft, hopefully your carb rebuild does the trick and a rebuild isnt necessary! If that doesnt do the trick and you decide to let her go, theres a chance I may be interested. What color is your boat and where exactly are you located?
Good luck! ------------- |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-11-2006 at 4:29pm
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its a yellow one. boat is close to toronto. Its on a new custom galvanized trailer. new trans, elec ignition, starter and now carb rebuild. Its in good condition, floor and stringers are excellent, so is the carpet. few rips in some of the vinyl, and the yellow and decals are a bit faded. Gelcoat is excellent. Overall its a good boat, I just want to ski. what would you offer me? ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: July-11-2006 at 4:35pm
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Shoot me an email: TRBenj@gmail.com ------------- |
Posted By: tommer12
Date Posted: July-11-2006 at 5:03pm
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It's in a gray can and it is called "Engine Restore"
Yeah, it might be a band-aid, but I have seen it work for quite a long time, at least on my wranglers. http://www.restoreusa.com/ |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: July-11-2006 at 5:11pm
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I don't think you need to be worring about a rebuild at this point. Replace the oil with what's recommended (probably 20W50) and you should be fine (and keep gasoline out of the crankcase).
I'd suggest learning to work on it yourself. It's not all that hard and it saves a lot of time and money, most of the time. Plus it gives me a good feeling to fix things myself. As far as troubleshooting: --Work on one commponent at a time --Have a reason for fixing that component --Take a systematic approach --Eliminate the simple/obivious things first (most problems are the simple/obivous or they started out that way and messed up other things) The fourm is a great resource. |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-11-2006 at 5:52pm
I don't want to get ahead of myself, but I've thought for a long time that this motor may need to be overhauled (wouldn't that be a great show for us boat freaks!!!!) & it eventually will. it has 830 original hours on it and until I bought it nothing has been replaced. So I am now the bearer of the rebuilding process. I will see how the carb rebuild goes and the oil swap and then work my way from there. will update once that work has been done. you're right this site is an excellent resource, but during the summer I have no time to work on this boat. the off season I can, but I am a skier first boat owner second. I just want to be on the water, not screwing around with my boat. I have learned a lot about these motors over the years from my old ski supreme, but as I mentioned there is little time in my schedule to work on this boat. thx all for the help, I'll keep you posted. ------------- |
jimbo wrote:Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-12-2006 at 1:15am
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an idle issue will not effect an oil pressure issue, if you don't have a good oil pressure at 2000 and a bad idle, your not going to have good oil pressure at 4,000 rpm or 1000 rpm. Keep telling your self it's going to fix it's self. All of the suggestions are band aid's mine included, to get you a little more time but the bottom line is the motor is junk and needs rebuilt, keep telling your self it's ok and when the rod shoots out the side of the block, while your being towed in, call me and I'll remind do you remember..... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-12-2006 at 9:13am
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Hey dude, chill out. I'm not telling myself anything. I know that these motors run low on the psi side of things and I will see what happens when I change the oil to the 20w50. I realize a rebuild is in its future it has 830 hrs on it and I don't think its had a lot of attention over the years.
How about I call you to do the rebuild? what would you charge to either do all the bearings or swap out the short block? ------------- |
Posted By: 64 Skier
Date Posted: July-13-2006 at 3:39am
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Kylecraft,
Just stick with it a while longer and you'll be skiing in no time. You've stated you have a solid hull and new tranny to say the least so your almost there. A Carb re-build is great when you do it yourself. If you pay a mechanic then the labor plus the kit is probably more than a new Edelbrock Marine carb. If you really like your hull and the boats performance then rebuild that engine. If you need help talking to the machine shop, drop me an email and I'll call them with you. Regarding the engine, very few Dealers dig into the internals and repair them and the result is they can offer little or no help with the oil pressure issue. I always check around and find a machine shop that is fully equipped to pull the engine, tear down and bore and re-assemble. Find one that does performance engines. Most Dealers/Mechanics will send the engines or maybe just the block and heads to the same place and reassemble themselves, but pay the machine shop to reassemble is only about $200 and now you have only the machine shop to deal with. If you just teardown, replace all bearings and gaskets the total price should be around $1200. Takes about a week. Boring adds no time, but the last one I did cost me $150 to bore and I bought forged pistons for about $240 bringing my total to around $1800. The shop pulled the engine on Monday and had me skiing on Friday. You can buy cheaper pistons but make sure the piston to cylinder wall clearance is 0.40" or you'll be right back on this forum. I went with forged since several of us slalom at 36 MPH and 3600 RPM for long periods of time. Cruising and Wakeboarding don't require this attention but if you've got the $'s it's money well spent. By Performance I'm refering to guy's that machine during the day and possibly race on weekends. These guy's can rebuild a Holley and check all circuits in their sleep and the finished engine will have equal compression (as close as can be measured) in every cylinder. These style shops are all over and the guy's who work them are well experienced for rebuilding a performance marine engine. If you bore, you have a great chance to increase compression which IMHO is a great way to begin performance modifications. Just stay under 180 psi and you can still run pump gas. Good Luck ------------- 64 Skier 66" HO VTX and 67" HO Triumph http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1071&sort=&pagenum=3&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 71CC |
Posted By: 64 Skier
Date Posted: July-13-2006 at 3:57am
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Sorry...0.040" clearance. Auto's and Crate engines are typically 0.025 so if you go the Crate route make sure you cover this point. ------------- 64 Skier 66" HO VTX and 67" HO Triumph http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1071&sort=&pagenum=3&yrstart=1971&yrend=1975 - 71CC |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-16-2006 at 7:49pm
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newsflash.
so got the carb rebuilt. it now runs worse than ever (virtaully no oil pressure) and it cost me 600 bucks. I don't have very much money and my one passion is skiing. writing this is tough, I don't know what to say... all I want is someone who knows what the hell they are doing to tell me how to fix this boat. I appreciate what everyone has done on this site, unfortunately none of you are close to me. The biggest problem I have now is the boat is in the water; I didn't have time or a truck to pull it out and take it somewhere else, wherever that even is... I don't know who to trust with this thing. So I have to wait until next weekend to pull it out. At least that gives me some time to think about how I'm going to handle it. My incling is to phone all the marinas close to me and talk to them about it. There is 1 mastercraft dealer but they obviously don't use pcm motors. I won't take it to the CC dealer as I mentioned in earlier posts because it was the worst experience of my life dealing with them last year. I don't know how they are in business other than the fact that they service a rich area and rich clientelle. what should I look for in a mechanic, to work on this boat? anyone that you guys would recommend in central ontario? any other causes other than rung out bearings for the low oil pressure. it doesn't happen until you run it for 20minutes and it has to be a cold motor for you even to get decent psi. It didn't do this earlier in the year. I've only put a few hrs on it this season. ------------- |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: July-16-2006 at 11:45pm
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1. What exactly do you mean by it is running worse than ever? Idle? Just the oil pressure?
2. Did the mechanic adjust the carb on YOUR boat or a test engine? You will probably need to adjust the idle and fuel/air mixture. 3. Have you changed the oil to some Dino 20W50? Are you sure you have the correct filter installed? If you don't want to wait until next weekend, any mechanic should be able to change the oil,check the pressure with a manual gaugeand dial in the carb. If you can wait til next weekend, pull the boat out and change the oil. Put it back in, check the base timming, set the idle then the fuel/air mixture. If you're still having pressure problems, check the pressure with a manual gauge. An oil change is cheap and dialing in the carb is pretty easy. Don't give up yet. |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-17-2006 at 9:44am
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Thanks Jimbo.
1. it still stalls at idle. Carb kit was installed, but the mechanic mentioned something about a front end kit???? I thought a carb rebuild was a carb rebuild? I could've put a new carb on for the price I paid him. EDIT: The oil pressure is lower than it was before the kit was put in. When hot it idled below 10psi on the guage and at 30mph will be up around 15. so it is worse than before. 2. he took the boat out himself and adjusted it in the water. He said it ran great until about 20minutes, which is approximately the time it takes to warm up completely. He said he adjusted it but how well I don't know. 3. he changed the oil without me asking for the same reasons you all mentioned. I don't know what he put in; probably 10w30, but I will confirm. I will also confirm the proper filter. I bought a jug of 20w50 so I can swap it out easy. How do you check the pressure with a manual guage? and who can I take it to to dial in the carb. I don't have a manual and I'm not taking it back to the guy that just did it. For $600 and $500 in labor you should be able to get to the bottom of virtually any and every problem IMO. I have to find a good mechanic!!!! would any good ford mechanic be able to work on this boat. what should an auto mechanic know about this setup that would be different (rotation, etc.)? thx Kyle ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-17-2006 at 12:40pm
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Odds are it's not 20w50 oil and odds are the mechanic's a dumb ass, and for $1100 you better sue the guy or make him fix it because it's not right and you got screwed, did you know he was going to charge you that much up front? If you did that was pretty stupid to allow him to do it, all you did is get ripped off. If a mechanic doesn't want to work on something them they will give you an extremely high quote in the hopes that you go some where else, but if you bit then your not too smart concidering a carb kit cost $40.00 or less and even if you bought everything to replace on the carb you still have less than 100 bucks in parts.
Bottom line your motor is smoked and has to be re-built to fix your problems. I've done this a long time and I told you not too dick with the carb, but did you listen, doesn't sound like it, and it doesn't sound like you believe the only way to fix your problem of low oil pressure is to re-build or re-place the motor. So waiste some more money and by the time yopu figure out I was right and you add up the money you have spent you could have had the motor re-built and been skiing. It sounds like you have spent 1100.00 already and thats have of the price of a short block. So hope you get it figured out because you obviously don't want to listen to us. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-17-2006 at 1:20pm
easy tiger. re-read my post. I don't know where you came up with 1100. but anyways I still spent too much. I gave this mechanic 1 shot and it didn't work. Now I need someone who can fix it. he did rebuild the carb and also installed a new tach for $600 CAD - we have 14% tax, either way its too much and the problems are still there. I don't need you ramming my stupidity down my throat. but for someone on the internet to tell me i need to rebuild my motor without even looking at it is pre-mature IMO. Not saying you're wrong, but the problems are bigger than just low oil pressure. Not to mention the oil pressure was fine until a few engine hours ago. I would love to just pull the motor, sell it for scraps and throw a new one in. but I don't have 8 grand to put into a boat worth 15. Even if I threw a new block in it would still have idle problems. back to my last question: anyone know a good mechanic in ontario or what to look for in one? thx EDIT it was $600 total $200 in parts $400 in labor I just relooked at my reciept. $75/ shop hr. 14% tax. not a rip off but not a deal. The mechanic has worked on all kinds of my stuff, but he mainly does outboards and snowmobiles. I've never had a problem with him, but he obviously doesn't know how to work on this boat. i need someone who can!!!! ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-17-2006 at 1:39pm
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all your doing is avoiding the root cause of all of your problems. And I can tell what's wrong from your description and I've told you several times dicking with the idle is not going to fix an oil pressure problem.
HERE IS A LIST OF THINGS THAT CAN CAUSE LOW OIL PRESSURE. 1. THE ENGINE BEARINGS ARE SHOT 2. THE OIL PUMP IS SHOT OR BROKE 3. YOU HAVE A BAD SENDING UNIT AND/OR GUAGE. Two of the three require the engine to be pulled. One requires the sending unit to be removed and mechanical gauge installed in it's place to check actual pressure. SSSSOOOO do what the hell you want and keep pissing on your self, I've told you for over a week that dicking with the idle is a waiste of time and that if you change the oil and use heavier weight oil that will limp you through to the end of the season, but BOTTOM LINE YOUR MOTOR IS JUNK AND NEEDS REPLACED END OF STORY PLAN AND SIMPLE NO WAY AROUND IT IT'S SMOKED AND NEEDS REPLACED. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: David F
Date Posted: July-18-2006 at 10:15am
Ok, something in the qoute above got me thinking outside the box. Could the problems be electrical related? Mech said boat ran great for 20 minutes, then everything went to hell. Maybe something or a connection in the electrical system is getting hot due to a poor connection and screwing with the ignition system and oil pressure gauge. So, check all the electrical connections at the gauges and the engine. Especially pay attention to the engine/boat wire harness connector (black rubber). Now, I tend to agree with 79Nautique that bad bearings are the mostly likely cause of actual low oil pressure. However, such a result is usually slow and does not just happen over several engine hours of operation. I guess what I am saying is that something less obvious might be happening...like electrical. Definately make certain that you have 20w50 in the engine then do not worry about the oil pressure any more...nothing more you can do. Then you must get it running correctly all the time. If it continues to run poor after 20 minutes from cold, something else is going on other than the condition of the engine. Find that problem, then maybe the oil pressure gauge will read correctly and your problems will be gone. I do like the idea of using a manual oil pressure gauge for peace of mind. Good luck and do not give up. The Ford/PCM 351 engine is about as simple as you can get. Electrical and fuel are usually what gives people headaches due to the harsh marine environment. So look toward electrical. ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-18-2006 at 10:21am
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the first thing that needs done is pulling the sending unit and replacing it with a mechanical gauge and find out what the actual pressure is to determind if the pressure is sufficent for normal operation. If the pressure is low then it doesn't matter what you do to anything else because it's still not going to run right. Doing anything other than verifing oil pressure is a waiste of time and money, and there is already a bunch of money that has been waisted. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-18-2006 at 10:46am
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thanks for the responses guys.
I'm not a mechanic, but not an idiot either. I've had crank bearings go in my 2strokes before and you notice it over time; slowly. My oil pressure issue is new (2-4 engine hrs) which is why I'm hesitant to throw in the towel just yet, but I know a rebuild is in this motor's future. Its just hard for me to believe that it happened this fast. I will throw a mechanical guage on the oil sender, or would a new sender do the same thing? Could heat be getting to the sender and causing it to loose its strenght? I don't notice any rattling or grinding which is why I'm hesitant to pull the motor just yet, but as stated I need someone who knows WTF they're doing to look at it, and more importantly with the right tools. I don't have a pressure guage or other auto tools so its tough for me to find the problems. The mech that did the carb suggested that maybe the idle issue was being caused by the fuel line leaking air; he suggested a new float bowl on the carb. I have had gas drip from where the line comes in and I just give the bolts a 1/8 turn and it stops. thanks guys ------------- |
Posted By: 79nautique
Date Posted: July-18-2006 at 11:18am
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do you have an auto parts store close to you? they sell mechanical gauges pretty cheap and the only ones I see that don't know WTF they are doing is your mechnanic and the dumb ass paying rediculus prices for him to do it and still not fix it. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=756&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1979&yrend=1979 - 79 nautique |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: July-18-2006 at 11:39am
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Don't just change the sending unit. The only way to find the real pressure is to use a mechanical gauge. I'm not sure what they cost (maybe around $30). You may be able to borrow or rent one from an auto parts store or shop. Go out in the boat; let it warm up. Unscrew the sending unit and screw in the gauge. Turn off the engine to do this of course. It's pretty easy.
I really think you have two separate problems here. I recommend working on one then the other. RE: the idle. Any chance you have an exhaust leak? Does the idle improve with the cover open? By the way, isn't there some 60-something year old guy in your neigborhood or your parent's neiborhood or somewhere that used to work on is own car? Strike up a conversation with him and if it seems like he knows his stuff, tell him what you got going on and ask him if he'd be able to go out on the boat with you and take a look. It would make his day and you'd learn a lot. Just check with us before you start installing a bunch of automotive parts. |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: July-19-2006 at 12:52am
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I'll get a gauge then and bypass all the electrical.
The boat isn't in a very populated area. I live in Canada and you'd be impressed with how "wilderness" this is but still in civilization. If you walk north from the edge of the lake you will not come accross a handful of people until you hit james bay. So there aren't a lot of people around to help out or a lot of qualified inboard marine mechanics. I'll post a map later to show you where I am... I'm not going to install auto parts, I usually get my stuff from DIM and they've always been very helpful. Problem with working with a marina is they want to sell you parts... so I have to find a private garage or mobile mechanic (which I have a line on). I've contacted a bunch on local marinas and told them my situation and they haven't gotten back to me; which I appreciate because I don't want them to dick around like the other 2 have and it cost me a small fortune. btw I don't think its an exhaust leak the idle doesn't change with the hood down, but I haven't run it for long with it up so I'll pull it right off when I take it out and throw the gauge on. the mech that did the carb rebuild mentioned it could be a leak from the intake to the front end of the carb and a new front bowl may fix it ? thanks again guys. I will keep my fingers crossed about the pressure and go from there once I check it manually. ------------- |
Posted By: jimbo
Date Posted: August-02-2006 at 7:05pm
| Any updates? |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: August-02-2006 at 9:39pm
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not at this point, but I did find a good marina(I truly believe) he bought it in 1968 when he was 18 and his whole family runs it. Their primary expertise is in the shop not new boats sales...
I should know more in the next few days. They had 700 work orders when I took it in but they were going to rush it as it was a referal from a freind and a good customer of theirs. they have a full machine shop so anything can be done on site which is good also. btw his last name is holley so I hope they can tuen this carb!!!! I will update when I hear from them ------------- |
Posted By: Kylecraft
Date Posted: August-22-2006 at 2:13pm
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So... turns out the oil pressure is fine (whew!) just bad electrical like many mentioned. compression is good with no bad holes. carb was not set up right ever so they've adjusted the throttle, mixture screws and idle speed correctly. They are waiting on a new distributor as they believe the old one was the root of the problem. Nothing wrong with the timing, but due to moisture and heat it would throw off the timing after running for a while. so a whole new distributor is going in and I should have it this weekend to test.
If all goes well and it runs properly I am selling it. I haven't had it out more than 10hrs and I'm just sick of this boat and if anything ever goes wrong with it again I may start at it with an axe. Its worth more to someone else than me right now. If you don't mind coming to the Toronto, ON area let me know this boat is for sale pending a water test (even if the test is not good I will fix it to sell it). thanks for all your help, Kyle ------------- |