ZDDP Question
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: Common Questions
Forum Discription: Visit here first for common questions regarding your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41583
Printed Date: November-21-2024 at 6:49pm
Topic: ZDDP Question
Posted By: vandykd3
Subject: ZDDP Question
Date Posted: July-22-2017 at 4:54pm
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Hello again Correct Craft savants. I've a quick question about engine oil in my 68 Ford Interceptor. In a previous post of mine, Keno said that 15W-40 oil of any brand would work for my oil change, and, in another post, skutch said to make sure it has ZDDP content between 1200 and 1500 ppm, that is critical to protecting the flat tappet cam. Well, NAPA hooked me with Shel Rotella T4 Triple Protection 15W-40, but there's no info on the ZDDP content. Can I just go ahead and use this oil straight away, or must I add a product like ZDDPlus to it? Thanks! |
Replies:
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-22-2017 at 5:09pm
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Dave Read this link to a fairly recent postthread http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41032&title=diesel-oilstheyre-changing" rel="nofollow - Diesel oil link You'll get all kinds of opinions about zinc levels. Your T4 is the newer stuff and has 1200 ppm zinc Look at the PQIA link in that thread. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-22-2017 at 5:12pm
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You are good to go with the T4 "The 15W-40 Rotella T with Triple Protection oil has approximately 1200 ppm of zinc and 1100 ppm phosphorus" BTW, Ken mentioned "any" brand of oil WITH good levels of ZDDP! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: MourningWood
Date Posted: July-22-2017 at 5:15pm
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Frequently used brands in older air-cooled Porsche and 60's-70's muscle cars with solid flat-tappet cams: Brad Penn Joe Gibbs Driven |
Posted By: vandykd3
Date Posted: July-22-2017 at 5:29pm
Man, I don't know what people like me would do without people like you. Y'all be restoring my faith in humanity. Now, one last thing. Anybody know where I can get a magic wand to wave over it so I never have to maintain it ever again. In fact, one that pays me would be great! Would that be a Mallory or Sierra part? 
|
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: July-22-2017 at 5:45pm
And they have the money to spend on over priced endorsed oil!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
MourningWood wrote:Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: July-22-2017 at 6:31pm
Ironically enough many of those are trailered too  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: fgroce
Date Posted: July-22-2017 at 9:52pm
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I do not understand, all the time everyone spends on their boats to make them look good and run again. Why do people want to buy the cheapest oils to protect the engine. I understand money may be tight, but for less than the price of two tanks of gas, you can put a high quality oil in your engine that will protect it many times better than the cheap oils. Just my opinion. ------------- FGroce 88 Ski Nautique For 28 years Now 2002 Ski Nautique |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-22-2017 at 10:05pm
I don't understand why some people have to buy the most expensive "race oil" they can find for their stock pretty low output low revving engine. How about explaining this many times better protection ? Does it make it faster? I take it you don't trust the PQIA and all their oil analysis testing. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: July-22-2017 at 10:20pm
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I can tell you why I use VR1. It's because I can get it for 4.59 a quart. I have 3 boats and a car that uses it. It seems to do the job and I can change it often and not feel I'm just throwing it away. http://imgbox.com/0IapewnA" rel="nofollow">  [/IMG]------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-22-2017 at 10:49pm
So what kind of oil does Iron Eyes Cody use? I figure we all have our preferences, Frank can use whatever he wants (Amsoil 15w40)and I'll use whatever I want. 15w40 Rotella is recommended by more than one marine engine company, there must be a reason |
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: July-23-2017 at 1:06am
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4 out of 5 dentists recommend ethanol-free motor oil. That's my choice. ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: July-23-2017 at 1:38am
Thats a good recommendation,always trust your health care professional. I myself go by what my Veterinarian advises,I'll see him next week  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: jbear
Date Posted: November-07-2017 at 2:35am
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oil threads and winterizing threads are by far my favorites on here.... john ------------- "Loud pipes save lives" AdamT sez "I'm Canadian and a beaver lover myself"... |
Posted By: Nautiquehunter
Date Posted: November-07-2017 at 9:10am
| I have been using Mobil 1 15w50 in all my boats since 1989 . Never had a oil related problem . I add 1 qt of Lucas 10001 Heavy Duty Oil Stabilizer to my 08 210 because of the additional load surfing puts on it . |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: November-07-2017 at 11:19am
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I prefer Rotella 15-40 in my Fords. Between all of the Ford Flat tappet engines we have had over the years we have most likely logged 3000+/- hours of run time using this oil. The valve spring pressure/ramp rates/lift of a stock camshaft really should be perfectly fine at 1200 PPM. I even run it in my car which has much more wild camshaft specs and very high spring pressure with no issue. I also prefer to run the 40W spec rather than 50W as the 40 has much better flow than a 50. Yes, 50 will thin out less in extreme temperature situations but within correct temp spec all it does is increase oil pressure and pump effort and reduce over all flow. If the engine tolerances are set up for 40w and it stays within a proper temperature range it offers all the protection you will ever need. Also, additives are a nono. Lucas oil stabilizer is just a high viscosity base stock with no additives. It purely increases viscosity. You would be better off running VR-1 20-50. Big Block Chevy engines really like to heat oil up unless running a cooler so the 20w-50 would be my choice for a BBC. Fords get 15w40. The Mobile 50W is a great choice if you want to go the synthetic route. Mobile would be my choice in a freshly build Big Block Chevy. Some people think the 1200 PPM isn't enough but in my (and many many others) experience it is perfectly fine to protect the tame flat tappet camshafts that come in the stock engines. So, nobody is really "sacrificing" or "going the cheap route" by using this oil. Long and the short of it. If you use Rotella 15-40 you'll be fine. If you use VR1 20-50 You'll be fine. If you use Mobile 15-50 You'll be fine. |
Posted By: DrCC
Date Posted: November-07-2017 at 7:19pm
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I have an adjustable baseball style Rotella T hat. But inside the ski boat engine I use Kendall because it has a hand making the peace sign right there on the label. So, to me that means piece or peace of mind while towing wake boarders which I hate but do anyway. edit: And you'll also be fine with Kendall. With Kendoll, not so much. ------------- Keep it....from sinkin' |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 2:14am
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My customers through the 80's and 90's were production engine builders. Combined the built close to 3,000 engines per month. Was asked to help diagnose hundreds of engine failures. Never witnessed an engine failure due to the brand of oil used. Lack of oil changes or lack of oil I did see many times. Dirty oil and running when low on oil does cause failure. The modern Diesel oils still have protection in them that will protect your old flat tappet camshafts. Walmart has this in three brands for well under $20 a gallon. Most is in 15-40W. Nothing against all the modern racing oils like Joe Gibbs offering. If I decide to run 8,000 RPM I'll buy it but for my boat that rarely exceeds 5,000 RPM I'll run Delo, Rotella or any other brand that meets modern Diesel specs. ------------- |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 8:03am
 ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 9:56am
| Dang, 2000 miles. Count me sold. |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 10:08am
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2000 miles is a long ski run! ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 10:43am
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Be very careful comparing modern oils with those from the 80’s and 90’s. With modern roller cams and increasing emissions requirements, most of the “good stuff” needed for our older flat tappet engines has been removed from most oils, including the latest diesel specific ones. I’d need to recheck the specs on the various rotella types/grades, they reduced their ZDDP content fairly significantly (and quietly) about 10 years ago. I know VR1 and M1 15w50 continue to be safe choices. Saving a few bucks on oil sure would be nice, but having wiped out a ft cam, the $10/change saved is not worth it to me. |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 10:53am
| What oil were you using when you wiped out a cam? I've preferred Rotella straight 30W for older engines that appear not to have been rebuilt. That stuff used to be pushed around here. Did they change the ZDDP in it? We've been using VR1 20-50 on older engines that have been rebuilt and on some more modern engines like Dave's '88 BFN. I wondered if VR-1 10-30 would be a better choice than 20-50 as that is what manufacturer recommended. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 11:05am
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88 has a flat tappet cam and should not be considered more modern. Oil recommendations from 30+ years ago are not necessarily appropriate considering the changes made in oil technology over that time period. Yes, 30w rotella has less zddp in it now than it used to. I use it in my tractor but that’s it. Was running VR1 when the cam wiped. Sometimes sht happens even when you do everything by the book. Not worth the chance to push your luck here imho. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 11:17am
Bruce, I agree with Tim. Whether or not an engine has been rebuilt or not and it's age has nothing to do with the modern technology of multi viscosity oil. I don't feel using 30 weight just because of an old recommendation is a sound idea. Oil topics have come up at ACBS tech seminars for some time and the consensus has always been go multi viscosity. I run 20 50 in everything and Tim, that includes my 1969 tractor!! You must be listening to some old guy who has never heard of or knows about multi viscosity oils! Hopefully he does understand the importance of the zinc.  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 11:19am
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Bruce, if your engine spec calls for 10w-30 you would be completely fine to use that (bearing clearances dictate oil viscosity selection). Stepping +/- 10 either direction shouldn't make a big different but going 30w to 50w is completely useless. Rotella as far as anyone can tell continues to have 1200 PPM ZDDP which is completely fine for flat tappet engines. If they ever reduce it below 1200 then you need to start raising an eyebrow at using it in a flat tappet engine especially one with a larger cam spec/heavier valve springs. If 1200PPM wasn't fine there would be tons and tons of people crying about wiped camshafts online. I doubt many marinas even know what ZDDP is and care to check the content of the oil they order in drums to use for services and you don't hear about people experiencing camshaft/lifter failure. Anyone who has wiped a flat tappet camshaft (That is already broken in) please let us know what type of oil you were using. I doubt any forum goers are dumping 50w oil into their car/truck engines when it calls for 30w. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 11:21am
Oh, i thought that an early rendition of the 'the shocker' huh, Learn something every day ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 11:24am
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Someone here at work wiped a cam and tappet on a fairly modern looking 5-valve Audi turbo Curiously, they ran non-roller systems longer than i thought anyone should have. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 11:26am
Not me personally since I've always used oils with ZDDP but, I did personally see two cams with lobes that barely had any profiles on them. In both cases, the engine owners switched to modern synthetics thinking they were "helping" the engines and not knowing the importance of zinc. One cam was reported to have about 50 hours on it and the other about 75. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 11:34am
Still another option  ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 11:36am
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I used ordinary presumably low ZDDP Valvoline or NAPA, (same thing) 10W30 in my BOL's 1988 Mailibu Skier with PCM 240 hp from 1992 to sometime around 2005 when people started talking about ZDDP. Engine seems to run fine, but we have been using VR1 since. When I say more modern, I'm comparing an 80's vintage to an antique like the early '60's 170 ci IL six in our Mustang. I guess I'm still influenced by the rumors way back when that said you would spring leaks everywhere if you switched from non detergent to detergent oil. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 11:41am
The key point in the importance of the zinc is not the actual age but if the engine has flat tappets or not. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 11:45am
Right, they were probably using something formulated with low ZDDP and an additive package not meant for an older engine. http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?136304-What-oil-brands-offer-the-best-protection-***Good-read***" rel="nofollow - Oil Protection This is probably one of the best reads on oil/protection comparisons I've seen. Rotella/some other popular diesel oil ranks well and should be just fine for low spring/stock camshaft flat tappet engines. Even looks like the "old" rotella had less ZDDP which everyone thinks was the other way around. This shows its not all about the ZDDP level but the entire additive package. Looks like VR1 is top tier. Most likely quite overkill for our stock engines but good in high spring pressure/big lift/aggressive ramp rate applications. Certainly no determent to using VR1 other than I don't like to run 50w oil in an engine I had set up to run 30w in. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 12:03pm
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What are the symptoms of a wiped lobe on a cam? The ticking noise in the Mustang since I put the P heads on seems to be getting louder. I've adjusted /checked lifter preload several times. In the back of my mind I question the triple springs Tri State installed and wonder if they could be a cause? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 12:12pm
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Could cause a ticking noise. Could cause a slight misfire or lower engine performance. If the cam lobe isn't worn below the ability of the lifter to compensate for lash adjustment I wouldn't suspect a tick. Easiest way to tell if you have an issue would be to check the lift of each push rod with a dial indicator. If one is quite less than the others then you likely have a lobe issue. My 351 cam/lifters have roughly 1900-2000 hours of use on them. Rotella since the day I put it together. |
Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 12:16pm
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I started using Cenpeco 15w40 in the flat tappet solid lifter hemi since the rebuild, not much forgiveness on a valve train there. Todd W turned me onto this stuff, It's not a off the shelf product but he gets it through a dealer (sort of like amzoil products) and uses it for all his farm equipment. The 15w40 has 1600 ZDDP. http://www.cen-pe-co.com/Products/Engine%20Oil.html" rel="nofollow - Cenpeco 15w40 I had always used the Vr-1 20w50 in the 81 nautique and to be honest with you I never liked it, It was a little slow to the top of the motor when cold and I never felt the 50 was required so finding the Cenpeco 15w40 with 1600 ZDDP to me is exactly the right combination. It ain't cheap but neither is rebuilding a vintage motor. |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 12:27pm
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Nice Alan, I am with you. As long as the viscosity/oil selection can protect at the operating temp thinner oil gets to parts much quicker and puts less load on the pump etc. Lots of wear occurs on cold starts. Sounds like that stuff Todd is formulated for flat tappet diesel farm equipment. Just right for our use. |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 12:40pm
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Did a little more research. Achieves 5,000PPM if whole bottle used w/4 .5 qts oil https://lucasoil.com/pdf/TDS_Break-In-Additive.pdf" rel="nofollow - Lucas TB Zinc Plus ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 12:55pm
I was never able to keep a flat tappet cam under my tristate P heads... wiped out 2, or maybe 3 (haven't checked the one under them now). My plan is stick them on a roller 351 for a 1:23 to 1 boat ... Once a lobe is really gone you will lose oil pressure, you can see it in compression testing before that, and in debris in the oil often. Checking the lift is the best way although without having the intake manifold off you cant know if any differences you see are from the lifter or from the cam. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 1:04pm
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VR1 when wiping the cam Joe? Do they install some pretty healthy springs down at Tristate? |
Posted By: MourningWood
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 2:11pm
So, I don't own stock in Gibbs oil. I did, however, observe extensive oil testing on the Edelbrock dynos several years ago. Yes, these were flat-tappet race motors. Nevertheless, the Gibbs oil proved superior in every measure, including peak power. Oil life about doubled. Using since created. Internal engine wear remarkably minimal. Yes, it's expensive @7.99/qt. Rotella is @3.50/qt. So +$30.00 for a 6-quart oil change. But lasts twice as long, so difference really $15.00. I can live with that. (IMHO) |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 4:26pm
Triple springs if I remember correctly. 20 20 hindsight should have checked against my cam card spring specs. I had thought that since I had a broken in cam and ran the VR oil I'd be ok. This will be next summers project. Will do as Joe says with the dial indicator and will go from there. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: phatsat67
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 4:32pm
| See if J-Bear can come up and assist with the internal engine work. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 5:07pm
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If it comes to that I certainly will Zach. There must be a F 12 key on the back of the engine somewhere ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: November-08-2017 at 10:17pm
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Gary - I hd an engine (6 cyl chev) that had a bad tick, cause was a worn valve guide. Never got worse so lived with it & it got sold that way. Someone needs to PM Billy Boat Dr so he can get in on the latest oil discussion. ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: jbear
Date Posted: November-09-2017 at 1:05am
OMG....I will clear the calender! john ------------- "Loud pipes save lives" AdamT sez "I'm Canadian and a beaver lover myself"... |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: November-09-2017 at 1:29am
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Gary you are describing cam lobe failure exactly. Runs great, no noise, within a short period usually one lifter will start ticking and will gradually get louder. Most mechanics at this point say no big deal, one loose lifter. Pull the valve cover and give it a half turn tighter and all is quiet again. About the time you think, that repair was easy it starts to quietly tap again. This is because the nose of the cam lobe is wearing down and the lifter foot is cupping out. The only fix is a new cam and lifter set. This type failure never affects oil pressure. The Most common cause is a slow start. Excessive cranking before the engine is started the first time. Usually when the installer has something wrong so they crank and crank while figuring it out. If the lifters don't spin right away on start they will cause this failure. Mark ------------- |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: November-09-2017 at 2:09am
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If the cam lobe wore enough to expose the oil passage it could be a large oil leak but that would mean a half inch of lobe was worn away. I have never seen that. I suspect you have a plugged oil passage or a missing block plug causing pressure loss and cam failure. Note many core blocks will sit for extended periods before they are put back in service. If the lifter bores get rust in them they can keep a new lifter from spinning. This alone has caused many cam failures. 5 minutes with fine Emory cloth can eliminate this. High pressure valve springs are another common cause. I know engine builders that will break in a flat tappet high performance cam on light pressure springs and install the stronger springs after break in to avoid failure. Factory springs only had 75-90 seat pressure. Your triple spring package is way above that. ------------- |
Posted By: curiouslibra
Date Posted: January-19-2018 at 10:05pm
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After reading this whole thread my question is: Does a 1999 gt-40 have solid flat-tappet cams? If not do I need a high ZDDP > 1200ppm oil? My manual says for weather like here in Texas I should use A 40w oil. Buxton marine says that using a multi weight oil Will typically burn more and that I should stay with a straight 40w like what the manual recommends. ------------- W i l l "Don't argue with idiots, onlookers will not be able to tell the difference between the two of you, as the idiot drags you down to their level and beats you with experience." |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-20-2018 at 12:27am
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What you actually have is hydraulic flat tappet cam. If they were solid you would have to adjust them,hydraulic ones self adjust. Keep in mind the manual was written 20+ years ago things have changed and Ford certainly has not kept up with testing obsolete engines. If you can find a single weight oil that has 1200 ppm of zinc go ahead and use it. Many of us use 20w 50 Valvoline VR 1. I can get it usually under 4.50 a qt. There are many oils you can use, some cost more very few if any are cheaper- check with the manufacturer many of their web sites contain that data ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-20-2018 at 7:53am
Will, Sounds like Buxton doesn't want to give out an opinion with just telling you to stick with what the old manual states. They didn't mention anything about ZDDP?  I certainly hope you don't have them change your oil!! BTW, what color oil filters do they use? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: FredWSauer
Date Posted: January-22-2018 at 5:31pm
 Yep. ------------- - FWS 1993 Ski Nautique 1978 Glastron T-160 1994 Weeres Pontoon - Wife's Boat |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: January-22-2018 at 5:49pm
| As far as straight weight versus multi weight goes, I've heard both positions whether an engine that uses oil will use more if straight weight is used or multi weight is used. Which is it? |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: January-22-2018 at 7:23pm
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Bruce, my opinion and experience is this - no difference in consumption between multi and straight weight. Difference in oil pressure is a different story, but in engines that consume oil I've seen them continue to consume oil of higher multi, or straight weight. I have had direct experience with a change of brand/type of same weight having an effect on consumption. I have no idea why this is, but have experienced it several times. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: January-22-2018 at 7:40pm
| Changing brands of the same weight having an effect is weird. My niece's boat uses some oil and she is switching from straight 30w to 20w50 in hopes of it using less. It'll be interesting to see if it makes any difference. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: January-22-2018 at 8:45pm
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The Multi Viscosity oils are thinner when cold. If you have leaks, you will leak more oil. The leak could be at the valve stem seals. Thinner oil can pass more than thicker oil so this could cause more consumption. If your Piston Rings are good they won't care what oil you run. Rings in good shape will run fine on 5-20W and not burn any oil. If you are leaking oil past the valve stem seals, just one drop per revolution can burn a quart of oil in 400 miles. What is that in a boat? I don't know, maybe 8 hours use? I have run both Chevy and Ford V8's in my Ski boats the last 40 years and never needed to add oil between changes. Originally I ran 30W then switched to 10-30W but for the past 5 or 6 years I've run 15-40W Diesel Engine oil ( Delo, Castrol or Rotella ) to maintain the ZDDP at a reasonable cost. A good engine will not care what weight oil is in it as long as it has the proper lubricants and is not too thick. 50W is pretty thick oil, I would certainly not go any heavier. ------------- |
Posted By: rosconole
Date Posted: January-24-2018 at 11:51am
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another view on ZDDP here with some options... https://www.amsoil.com/newsstand/classic-and-vintage/articles/reduced-zddp-and-wear-protection/ ------------- 1989 ski nautique ,1991 barefoot nautique, 1993 Mustang Cobra 1998 5.0 Magazine shootout invitee |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-24-2018 at 12:42pm
Ross, Did you read the article? Regarding tappet and cam wear, I do find this statement interesting: "Because most V-8 engines of the muscle car era came standard with flat-tappet cams, the problem is especially prevalent to classic-car and hot-rod owners. In these applications, modern oils, such as AMSOIL synthetic motor oils, are capable of providing adequate wear protection after the engine has been broken in. But due to variables like severity of service and level of modification, AMSOIL primarily recommends high-ZDDP oils in these applications" So, they too recommend ZDDP for our flat tappets!! To me, it looks more like an ad for Amsoil!! , ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: rosconole
Date Posted: January-24-2018 at 7:22pm
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Yea just trying to get some more input for something outside of sae 40 W for 454 and changes in specifications . not an easy oil to find like it used to be and pricing all over the place. ------------- 1989 ski nautique ,1991 barefoot nautique, 1993 Mustang Cobra 1998 5.0 Magazine shootout invitee |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-24-2018 at 7:28pm
Ross, Are you going by what the manual says? I agree with Gary regarding multi weights:
Have you considered a multi weight? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: rosconole
Date Posted: January-24-2018 at 7:57pm
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yes, so far sounds like 10w-40 or 15w-40 , just have to look at the data a little closer to get apples to apples. specs have changed , epa regs have changed so you almost have to throw alot out the window and hope the man following too close behind you. ------------- 1989 ski nautique ,1991 barefoot nautique, 1993 Mustang Cobra 1998 5.0 Magazine shootout invitee |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: January-24-2018 at 7:59pm
| Pete, AMS Oil has a ZDDP line for old engines. I've never used it as we use either VR1 or Straight Rotella in our boats. I have used AMS Oil 15-45 in our Malibu since new. I used to use it in my trucks, but no longer do as it is a PIA to find a shop that stocks it. Plus its expensive! |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: January-25-2018 at 4:49am
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Rotella and Delo are on the shelf at Walmart, SAMs and most parts stores and has the ZDDP in 15-40W. Less than $20 per gallon. Not hard to find and it works. ------------- |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-25-2018 at 7:42am
And the HD even stocks it! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: rosconole
Date Posted: January-25-2018 at 11:23am
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I was referring to the sae 40W not as easy to find it "on the shelf" not any current engine that probably specs it besides some tractor or generator. its got delo 40w last time I changed it after I bought boat last year. ------------- 1989 ski nautique ,1991 barefoot nautique, 1993 Mustang Cobra 1998 5.0 Magazine shootout invitee |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: January-25-2018 at 11:38am
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Straight 40 is the factory specified oil for most any Detroit 2 stroke. Had the darnedest time trying to convince the fd leadership till i showed it in black and white, and they were still skeptical. typical. So, sniff out where 2s detroit owners go, we'll fine the straight 40W ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: January-25-2018 at 2:02pm
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Just to state a fact, Detroit designed those 2 stroke Diesels 50 years ago and that 40W was probably the best option, back then. 50 years later in 2018 if you go to any Diesel Repair or Parts house you see 15-40W on the shelf. These Brand new Diesel engines still require the ZDDP in the oil so even the 15-40W has it and these Diesel repair and parts houses do not stock straight 40W any longer. Buy Joe Gibbs or Royal purple if you wish but the 15-40W Diesel oil will work for you just fine. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: January-25-2018 at 4:04pm
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Back in the second post of this thread last summer there was a link to http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41032&title=diesel-oilstheyre-changing" rel="nofollow - this thread that talked about changes in diesel oil. CK-4 is the latest rating, it's been around for about a year now and some but not all CK-4 oil is lower in zinc with levels of about 800 or so ppm Rotella T-4 and Valvoline Premium Blue 15w 40 diesel oil both have high zinc levels still in spite of their CK-4 rating. Chevron Delo and Mobil Delvac, I 'll let you read the charts With the previous rating of CJ-4 it was safe to say that any 15w40 diesel oil had the zinc levels people are looking for. With the advent of CK-4 it's now a crap shoot. You can still find CJ-4 diesel oils with good zinc levels, you just have to read the labeling on the bottle and look at the http://pqiamerica.com/HDEO_Sample_Summary_Dec_2016.html" rel="nofollow - PQIA link here to see what they have for zinc/phosphorus levels in the stuff they tested. |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: January-25-2018 at 4:32pm
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Like I've said before, add a can of Lucas ZDDP additive to your favorite oil and forget about it. That is what it is made for. ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: January-25-2018 at 5:05pm
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Thanks for the link Keno. ------------- |
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: January-26-2018 at 12:15am
+1 on what Duane sez... ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: January-26-2018 at 8:16am
  ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-26-2018 at 8:47am
At $14.00 a bottle/per oil change, I'll stick with using oil that already has ZDDP in it. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: January-26-2018 at 9:53am
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I'll still use VR=1 and not worry about it.. BUT if your favorite oil does not contain enough zinc then this is an alternative. Must be a cold hard winter to have beat this thread so long, and to have done it last year also.  ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: January-26-2018 at 10:30am
Duane, I'm sure it will continue with more winters in the future! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: rosconole
Date Posted: January-26-2018 at 11:08am
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I'll stay away from the Lucas I saw them on the questionable list on the independent testing, i never was a proponent of putting in additives to oil BUT I have seen how will the Archoil helps my injectors in powerstroke during startup. If I go away from the Delo 40, I probably end up using 15w40 marine & diesel amsoil since I can use the same in powerstroke and buy in 5 gallons at a time @ 133 for my dealer price. ------------- 1989 ski nautique ,1991 barefoot nautique, 1993 Mustang Cobra 1998 5.0 Magazine shootout invitee |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: January-26-2018 at 11:12am
Great price. I pay $90~ for 2.5 gals at NAPA. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: January-26-2018 at 11:41am
| $9/qt, ouch. |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: January-26-2018 at 11:48am
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I didn't know you can buy Amsoil at Napa? Thought it had to be through a dealer. I used the Amsoil Diesel & Marine 15-40 in a Suburban diesel that I did a test on with the help of an Amsoil dealer, we did uoa on every change. It's an outstanding oil. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-26-2018 at 12:05pm
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For you midwest guys, Menards has VR-1 for 4.99 a quart and a .55 cent rebate til the 27th. Blains Farm and Fleet usually carries it for 4.50 a quart. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: January-26-2018 at 12:12pm
Yeah, but we get 2-3% increase in RPM with it! |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: January-26-2018 at 12:20pm
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But I know where to get the decals that increase my HP ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: January-26-2018 at 12:22pm
| That's not as good. |
Posted By: rosconole
Date Posted: February-02-2018 at 4:46pm
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ZDDP is actually only specd at break in so its a moot point now really. Sure probably a higher number is better with a flat tappet. Would have been nice if they used roller motor instead. ------------- 1989 ski nautique ,1991 barefoot nautique, 1993 Mustang Cobra 1998 5.0 Magazine shootout invitee |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-02-2018 at 6:18pm
Ross, Lots including myself have a different opinion. I have seen first hand the damage done when non ZDDP oils were used on well broken in flat tappet engines. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: February-02-2018 at 6:34pm
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Ross, Pete is correct. If you don't want to use zddp install a roller camshaft and lifters. Flat tappet cams need zddp for protection against wear. Mark ------------- |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-02-2018 at 7:43pm
Ross, Hopefully you haven't gone to a non ZDDP oil!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: rosconole
Date Posted: February-02-2018 at 8:19pm
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OH NO! I better go order a new ZR409 right now just in case!!!!!!! Anyone got a spare Python motor !!!!??? ------------- 1989 ski nautique ,1991 barefoot nautique, 1993 Mustang Cobra 1998 5.0 Magazine shootout invitee |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: February-02-2018 at 8:40pm
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If you guys are gonna disagree with Roscoe, could you at least get your info straight. You talk about motor oil with no ZDDP................all MOTOR OIL has ZDDP in it. Some have more than others The newer passenger car motor oils have 700 to 850 ppm zinc and the generally accepted magic number is around 1100 to 1200 ppm for older flat tappet engines. I figure, to each his own, if Roscoe wants to run a lower zinc oil he can take his chances, it's his engine I'm still trying to figure out why the Jeep Cherokee I had that fell apart around the engine was still running just fine with 250,000 plus miles on low ZDDP/zinc oil of around 800 ppm. No camshaft /lifter issues, just good old salt related rust issues. Here's a link to the PQIA website where you can look at the oils they tested and see zinc and phosphorus levels in both the passenger car oil section and the diesel oil section http://www.pqiamerica.com/" rel="nofollow - PQIA |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-03-2018 at 8:24am
Jeeze Ken, now I guess we'll need to start even more ZDDP oil threads!! One for old school off road high ZDDP oils and another for new school EPA approved catalytic converter protecting low ZDDP oils!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: rosconole
Date Posted: February-03-2018 at 5:59pm
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I guess I need another boat for a litmus test, 2 is not enough! ------------- 1989 ski nautique ,1991 barefoot nautique, 1993 Mustang Cobra 1998 5.0 Magazine shootout invitee |
Posted By: curiouslibra
Date Posted: February-03-2018 at 9:25pm
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just when I thought this thread was starting to slow down, I found this test that was very eye opening on ZDDP levels and how they are not the only factor in protecting your engine. I also post this link because they also test ZDDP additives and none of them helped! in fact they reduced the protect and sometimes by a big percent! http://www.sccoa.com/forums/showthread.php?136304-What-oil-brands-offer-the-best-protection-***Good-read*** ------------- W i l l "Don't argue with idiots, onlookers will not be able to tell the difference between the two of you, as the idiot drags you down to their level and beats you with experience." |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: February-03-2018 at 9:49pm
I figure that before you post what you think is some groundbreaking earth shattering news you should read the whole thread here on CCF and you'll find the same link you just posted. Look at a post by phatsat67 on Nov 8th of last year ZDDP/zinc/phosphorus levels fall pretty easily into that category of "things that there's no firm answer to" |
Posted By: rosconole
Date Posted: February-03-2018 at 10:11pm
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Alot of those private label oils that thread listed are total garbage I wouldn't use them on a mountain bike chain. . It could all be a ploy to sell oil too...lots of snake and alligator oil. However a wear test is really a better indicator, zinc is really for break in oils typically , probably in marvel mystery oil , zmax, too. Some of the marine oils were actually made or spec'd for certain inboard i/o manufactures for example Mercury wanted a 25-w40 , ------------- 1989 ski nautique ,1991 barefoot nautique, 1993 Mustang Cobra 1998 5.0 Magazine shootout invitee |
Posted By: curiouslibra
Date Posted: February-04-2018 at 6:28am
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Oops sorry I missed the link. I was just more concerned with the poster that said he used Lucas ZDDP additive to bring up his ZDDP levels but the test show that it did more harm than good and since I didn’t see anybody tell him to go look at the chart I assumed no one had already posted that here sorry. ------------- W i l l "Don't argue with idiots, onlookers will not be able to tell the difference between the two of you, as the idiot drags you down to their level and beats you with experience." |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: February-04-2018 at 8:23am
Think you are confused about what product you are talking about. The study tested a different product than what I had posted. I have no factual information about where the Lucas product rates. BTW I can't recall reading where a CCF person has experienced a camshaft failure due to oil related issues. Pete you are right: it's a cold hard winter   ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: February-04-2018 at 9:29am
Hi Duane Here's a thread from 10 years ago with some people who had camshaft failures for various different reasons that they blamed on oil. Was it really the oil's fault? .I figure oil has changed some but not much has changed in the last 10 years as far as discussions go and in the next 10 the same discussions will continue. . http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7892&PN=1&title=mountain-vs-mole-hill-zinc-oils" rel="nofollow - old thread I guess some people will think the sky is falling and some will figure it's a mighty small percentage that had problems |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: February-04-2018 at 11:02am
I'm on my 4th cam already, and I've changed fluids regularly.  ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: February-06-2018 at 7:32pm
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No scanner so this is the best I could do with the digital camera. I ran across this Texaco oil ad in 1951 Motor Boating. Interesting they used a CC 42' flying bridge cruiser!! Ken, What do think the ZDDP levers were back then? Note, Texaco hadn't even come out with their Havoline oil yet!!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: February-06-2018 at 8:15pm
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Guessing that the valve springs on that '51 flat head were not high strength! ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |