Non start/ignitition issue on 1986 Martinique
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Boat Maintenance
Forum Discription: Discuss maintenance of your Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41878
Printed Date: November-16-2024 at 12:56am
Topic: Non start/ignitition issue on 1986 Martinique
Posted By: jblunceford
Subject: Non start/ignitition issue on 1986 Martinique
Date Posted: September-04-2017 at 3:09pm
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Hello all, I continue to tinker and enjoy my 1986 Martinique, but I've run into a non-start issue on the old girl. Several of you have been good to offer feedback on several topics this past couple of years as i've been getting her up to snuff. I would like to share my latest issue for comments & insight from the group....any feedback would be appreciated... the boat has about 700-800 hrs on it but has obviously been taken care of and maintained over the years. My last project was the replacement of the carb about two summers ago with the more modern "Quick Fuel" unit that has been talked about on the board. That was a nice upgrade & the boat ran great (with exception of issue noted below) with the new carb the remainder of that summer, but now i've got a new issue. Started noticing difficulty with cold starts late last summer....took several cranks to get it to fire...once it fired and warmed up, everything was good the rest of the day. On a side note, I ran the boat out of gas a week or two before noticing the cold start problem last summer. After refueling, it took some time and numerous cranks to get the boat to fire. I removed/opened the fuel filter housing thinking it might have trash/clogged somewhere, but it looked relatively clean. I cleaned the fuel filter and reinstalled, and continued several crank attempts...after another 10-15 mins of attempts, it eventually cranked. As best I remember, seems cold start was difficult remainder of last summer and has been ever since. Beginning this summer, I've had the same cold start difficulty. First time out this summer, the motor backfired loudly once after having been run a while (ie, not during a cold start), then cranked after a few more turns ....thought that was significant as the boats never backfired before. The outing before last, it took over an hour to get the boat to crank with intermittent trouble shooting of this and that on ignition & fuel systems...not sure what actually changed after the hour of fiddling with things, but boat finally cranked and ran fine rest of day. Yesterday experienced the same cold start issue, but after an hour or so, never got the boat to fire and battery finally ran down so I shut things down. Here are my observations: -through the last two long period attempts to crank, I never smelled fuel as i would expect from numerous throttle actuations...made me think I had a fuel issue, but i opened the fuel line and turned the motor over a rotat or two and clearly had a surge of fuel. Possibly a minimum fuel pressure not being meet? Otherwise, mech fuel pump looks ok from exterior. -I checked pressing the main coil -to -distrib cap wire pressed to manifold and had spark...also opened distrib cap and could see spark at points...brushed points with a penny and rotor contact point to freshen contact points-no help. -Tried starter fluid shots into the carb several times, but never got the motor to fire once...causes me to think its an ignition issue rather than fuel pressure issue. -I've only owned the boat for 3 seasons, it appears to have had a tune up kit/distrib cap/points etc, & new coil at some point, but the distrib unit itself is old & original looking. Plug wires look relatively newer as well...haven't pulled plugs yet, but going to do so soon. Going forward: -I try to do as much myself as possible....with numerous aged/original ignition parts, a tune up kit seems to be a logical next step to freshen up the points, cap/rotor/condenser, etc.. -Read article about distrib on these old boats getting worn bearings/seals etc...Been thinking about doing an electronic ignition conversion...thought this might be a good time to do so. This motor has the clip down distrub cap by the way & I couldnt' find a drop in point-less ignition module for it (ie, 1986 & earlier clip down cap). Anyone know if the point-less drop in modules are still available for the 1986 & earlier clip down distributors? -I did however find the following pertronix-flame thrower distrib for about $255 that looks like a possibility for upgrading/replacing the entire distrib unit. Anyone had experience with this unit/upgrade? https://www.summitracing.com/search/product-line/pertronix-flame-thrower-plug-and-play-marine-distributors-with-ignitor-ii-module -I broke the wire that runs from the coil into the distrib cap and attaches to the points, and got the points gap likely out of spec working on things yesterday, so until I get some new parts, everything is out of sorts right now. My hunch is that its an ignition component or failing distributor issue. I don't mind spending the $250 to upgrade the distrib & convert to electronic ignition if this is a good unit and will resolve my issue. Anyone see anything I'm missing that could be the issue that this distrib upgrade or tune up kit might not correct? PS: anyone know a dependable mechanic in the Bham, AL area (if I can't trouble shoot myself?) Thanks much in advance for any & all thoughts. Jeff Lunceford in Alabama ------------- Jeff in Hoover (Birmingham), AL 1986 CC Martinique Bow Rider 351PCM |
Replies:
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-04-2017 at 4:53pm
I'd buy an inline spark tester like in the picture, 6 or 7 bucks at Harbor Freight or about 15 or so for the one pictured from a auto parts place. It makes it a lot easier to check for spark going to the plugs As far as the distributor, you don't want to buy a Pertronix for a Reverse rotation 351w. The biggest reason is they don't make one with the correct gear for a RR engine. Their 351w distributor works very well in a normal rotation 351w which won't do you any good  They (Pertronix) don't make a gear that you could swap and your old gear won't fit because the shafts are different diameters. The Pertronix is .500 inch and the Prestolite is .531 inch shaft size. A few people here have had to have the Prestolite gear bushed down in size by a machinist.after realizing they bought a normal rotation distributor and couldn't get a reverse rotation gear of the right size for their new Pertronix. Unless you're sure your distributor is toast, which is probably not the case, I'd get a tune up kit and get it running with the points first. The Pertronix conversion kit number for the clip down cap is 1581 for the Ignitor and 91581 for the Ignitor 2. They work with either rotation engine/distributor The Ignitor 2 costs quite a bit more, but it won't burn up the module if the key is accidentally left in RUN. But I'd get it running on points then decide what you want to do. If your starting fluid does nothing, it's probably a spark issue like you're thinking |
Posted By: jblunceford
Date Posted: September-04-2017 at 5:48pm
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Thank you for alerting on the Petronix unit....I didn't know it wouldn't work. Thanks also for recommending that spark tool. Will get one of those. I've never replaced or adjusted points.....don't they have a gap setting spec? Also, do I have to reset the timing (never done that either)? Don't mind giving it a try....could someone point me to a DIY instruction? thanks again....Jeff ------------- Jeff in Hoover (Birmingham), AL 1986 CC Martinique Bow Rider 351PCM |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-04-2017 at 7:55pm
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Jeff, You'll need a dwell meter and a timing light if the light you get doesn't have built in dwell. Then there are plenty of video tutorials on line. The initial point gap should be listed in the engine manual (in the reference section) but I'll see if I can find it for you. Go points!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-04-2017 at 8:24pm
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Somehow I knew that "Pete the Prince of Points" would come along The gap is .018 inches and the timing would be 6 degrees BTDC for the clip down cap. The dwell spec is 29 to 33 degrees from my PCM manual. Spark plug gap of .035 inches Now as far as that dwell meter, it's not absolutely necessary. It's the best way but you can get away with points at .018 and no dwell meter and it'll run OK |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-04-2017 at 8:54pm
Ken, I just couldn't resist!!  Jeff, Ken is correct that a dwell meter isn't needed but best for setting the final dwell however, I've always found you can get real close to the proper dwell with just setting the point gap. 99% of the time I've been within spec by just setting the gap. One day I did an emergency point R&R on the side of the road to the ramp and the only thing I had was a match book cover to set the gap. The engine ran and if I remember, the actual dwell when checked was only out of spec a degree or two. Yes, the brand of match book will make a difference! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
KENO wrote:Posted By: jblunceford
Date Posted: September-04-2017 at 9:12pm
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Thanks again everyone. I understand that not all points are equal and quality. Do you guys have a source or brand of points and tune up kit that you prefer? ------------- Jeff in Hoover (Birmingham), AL 1986 CC Martinique Bow Rider 351PCM |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-04-2017 at 10:06pm
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If you want to go local, here are some part numbers for Standard Motor Products parts that fit your Clip Down distributor Points AL-5677P Condenser AL-118 Rotor AL-153 Distributor cap AL-140 or AL-483. The 140 has aluminum contacts and costs about 1/3 of the 483 which has brass contacts that don't corrode as easily. Coil if you decide to get one of those too FD-471 All these parts could be cross referenced to your favorite brand of ignition stuff Or you can get a tuneup kit from Ski Dim that is genuine Pleasurecraft. See the link below It has a cap with brass contacts and a set of points that has whipped some people because there's a spring for the points that has to be attached during installation and if you leave it out the engine will rev to about 2500 rpm's and no more then the points float and you have a misfire. Maybe the kit has changed, I'm not sure, but use all the parts in the kit and you'll be OK http://www.skidim.com/TUNE-UP-KIT-302_351-86-PRIOR-Prestolite-Clip-Down/productinfo/RP173024/" rel="nofollow - link |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-04-2017 at 10:19pm
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See the link for an old thread that has a picture of the spring or strap that I mentioned in the previous post and a lot of discussion about symptoms etc. http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=38641" rel="nofollow - link |
Posted By: jblunceford
Date Posted: September-04-2017 at 10:38pm
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Great, thank you for the detailed specs. ------------- Jeff in Hoover (Birmingham), AL 1986 CC Martinique Bow Rider 351PCM |
Posted By: jblunceford
Date Posted: September-11-2017 at 7:15pm
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I don't really plan or want to go this route, but if my dist/dizzy is bad, wouldn't this be a proper fitment for a full electronic distrib replacement, or does it have the wrong size gear as well ? https://www.nautiqueparts.com/product/electronic-distributor-kit-for-reverse-rotation-right-hand-motors-pcm-rk107026a/ ------------- Jeff in Hoover (Birmingham), AL 1986 CC Martinique Bow Rider 351PCM |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-11-2017 at 7:39pm
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Jeff, Tell us where you are at with getting the engine running before you even think about a distributor replacement. I agree with Ken:
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-11-2017 at 8:10pm
I agree with Pete who agrees with me But anyways, the distributor you have the link to would fit right |
Posted By: jblunceford
Date Posted: September-11-2017 at 9:29pm
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Here's an update with my plan.... I just ordered the Pertrnix Ignitor II solid-state coversion module (91581), and the EPOXY -filled flame thrower II coil...got both with shipping for about $152 from Summit (best prices I could find). I don't have experience setting points and timing, and even though parts cost would be less, I'd likely have to pay someone to come out and help me install the parts, resulting in more than the 150 bucks I spent on the conversion module & coil. I anticipate the conversion mod & coil are pretty straight forward, plug & play type installs that I can handle. If i'd had experience replacing points, I'd have ordered a tunup kit, and possibly a new coil, to have a fresh set of ignition components replaced. Given my experience base, I figured I'd be better off spending the money on the conversion module parts (than someone else's labor) and do the work myself. Am I missing anything on this approach? My boat is about an 90 min drive away, and i only have weekends to work on it. I anticpate getting parts by Sat and doing the conversion this weekend. ------------- Jeff in Hoover (Birmingham), AL 1986 CC Martinique Bow Rider 351PCM |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-11-2017 at 9:42pm
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Jeff, Missing something? Yes, I'd say so. since the EI conversion just isn't a drop in and go!! Save the point plate!!!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: jblunceford
Date Posted: September-11-2017 at 9:49pm
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Thanks for the heads up..... maybe I bit off more than I can chew.... does the ignitor II conver kit come with decent instructions? Is there significantly more to it than removing the points, condensor, putting the module in place and wiring it to the coil? ------------- Jeff in Hoover (Birmingham), AL 1986 CC Martinique Bow Rider 351PCM |
Posted By: jblunceford
Date Posted: September-11-2017 at 9:52pm
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fwiw....i'm comfortable and pretty decent at following directions if they are reasonably coherent....i've pulled & replaced differentials, clutches, etc. on cars....pulled and replaced the original holly carb and got the Quick Fuel unit running with no problem 2 summers ago. I just don't have a good feel for setting timing, and dont have a timing light. ------------- Jeff in Hoover (Birmingham), AL 1986 CC Martinique Bow Rider 351PCM |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: September-11-2017 at 10:29pm
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FWIW, You will have to have access to a timing light to tackle any type of distributor issue. Beg, borrow or steal one. Duane ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-11-2017 at 10:37pm
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The directions are good and you shouldn't have any trouble with the installation but like Duane said you'll need a timing light. Make sure you use the rotor that comes with the kit, it looks the same as the original at a quick glance but fits the magnet ring with no slop. Many of the rotors for that distributor are a sloppy fit in the ring so the Pertronix rotor is needed. |
Posted By: SNobsessed
Date Posted: September-11-2017 at 11:21pm
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+3 vote on getting it to run on points before installing the EI kit. If it doesn't run on the kit, you won't know if it is the kit or the original problem. Also, electrical stuff generally isn't returnable, esp if fried. Setting points is really easy. There must be a utube video that can walk you thru it. Just get the point rubbing block on top of the lobe (use a 5/16 socket & ratchet to turn crank). Set gap to .018 so that feeler gage will fit but .020 won't. You could plug in that new coil right away. That could be your whole issue in 1st place. Extra thought - I would just manually ground/unground your coil (-) terminal (with ignition on) & see if it makes a spark. This is all the points do! ------------- “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Ben Franklin |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-11-2017 at 11:34pm
That's a pretty small wrench, or a typo. I'll vote for typo. Should be a 15/16 socket |