GT-40 will not start after changing fuel filter
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42549
Printed Date: November-27-2024 at 8:48am
Topic: GT-40 will not start after changing fuel filter
Posted By: rakerdeal
Subject: GT-40 will not start after changing fuel filter
Date Posted: March-30-2018 at 7:07pm
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I have a 1998 PCM 5.8 Pro Boss GT-40 in my Sport Nautique. I changed the fuel filter, something I've done many times of course. At first the boat started and I ran it around on the lake here for a few minutes. Then it would not start. I checked the Fuel Control Cell and it was full. After screwing on the Fuel Control Cell metal canister the boat ran for a few minutes but then while idling at the dock the boat shut down on its own. At this point I checked the Full Control Cell again and it is not filling up. 20 years of owning 1998-1999 GT-40's, three of them, and this one's got me stumped. ------------- CYS |
Replies:
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: March-30-2018 at 7:25pm
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I would check and see if the low pressure fuel pump has voltage when you first turn on the key and if you do check the pump it's self. If it never has been changed it might be time they don't last forever. If it is bad check back there are alternative Carter pumps for a fraction of a PCM branded Carter pump ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: March-30-2018 at 7:35pm
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Gary can you tell me specifically how to test the low pressure pump for voltage? I do have experience with this sort of thing, I've even wired houses etc., but it has been years. I see the wires going around the bottom of the low pressure pump. Thank you. ------------- CYS |
Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: March-30-2018 at 7:38pm
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And Gary for checking the pump itself....how to do that? I think I know but... ------------- CYS |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: March-30-2018 at 8:31pm
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You most likely will need 2 people just to make it easier but yes those terminals are + and ground. Connect a volt meter to them and have someone turn the key to run,you will get a couple of seconds of fuel pump run and voltage. The computer senses the engine not running yet so it shuts off voltage to the pumps. As to the pump itself if it has voltage I would remove it and just try running it on the bench being careful about fuel and sparks not mixing well. Carter P4389 is a replacement which can be found for around 60 on the internet vs 212 for a PCM branded Carter pump Sometimes you have to cycle the key numerous times to fill the FCC though just because it does not run very long. Gas tank has gas in it right?  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: March-30-2018 at 8:55pm
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Also, should I hear the low pressure fuel pump prime when I turn the ignition on? ------------- CYS |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: March-30-2018 at 9:39pm
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Yes but it might be hard to hear because both should turn on. You could unplug the FCC and then listen for the LP pump. There are two relays on the lower right of the ecm mounting plate, one powers the ecm the other the fuel pumps, they can give trouble too and it's easy to carry spares but if you hear a pump run when you turn on the key it should be ok. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: March-30-2018 at 9:48pm
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Thanks for the replies. In the next couple of days I will go through some checks. I've been reading quite a bit here on the forums as to past problems/posts. One more thing, should you read this later, I did put the battery back in the boat today---- and also my ignition switch had loosened so I took off the 4 screws holding the instrument cover, pulled it out a little, and reached under the corner to tighten it. ------------- CYS |
Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: March-31-2018 at 10:56am
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OK, so this morning I turn the key on and hear nothing. I can't get a reading on the volt meter either. ------------- CYS |
Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: March-31-2018 at 11:35am
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Can't get volt reading at low pressure fuel pump. ------------- CYS |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: March-31-2018 at 3:06pm
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The relays circled in the lower right of this picture are the two that provide power to the ECM and to both fuel pumps. It is the easiest to unplug them and switch them. Then check and see if the pumps turn on with the key again. If they then run you just need new ones,you can get the number off them and purchase at your favorite place. You can click on the pic to make it bigger--- http://imgbox.com/rB9excGM" rel="nofollow">  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: March-31-2018 at 9:10pm
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Thanks again Gary. I will do that tomorrow. ------------- CYS |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: March-31-2018 at 11:20pm
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I'm having a hard time following your sequence of events in your description of the problem so I could be totally out to lunch or..............maybe not.. Since you tightened your ignition switch has the engine run? It sounds to me like maybe you caused the problem when you played with the switch. Pulling the panel out a little and reaching under the corner to tighten it, sounds like a good way to break a wire or weaken it enough that it broke shortly after I think it's worth a look at the connections on the back of the key switch If you broke/disconnected the purple wire attached to the switch, it would prevent you from getting power to both fuel pumps and the ECM and the engine won't run Is it safe to assume you found wiring diagrams in the GT-40 manual during your reading of stuff on CCF in the last few days? Like I said, I could be totally out to lunch but it's worth checking. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-01-2018 at 9:45am
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Also just swapping one relay for the other won't tell you anything because you need 2 good relays to get power to the fuel pumps. Power has to pass thru the EEC relay (#13) to actuate the fuel pump relay (#19) as you can see in the diagram below from an old Lewy2001 post
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lewy2001 wrote:
Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: April-01-2018 at 11:33am
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OK, with some assistance I find that yes I am getting power to the low pressure fuel pump. ------------- CYS |
Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: April-01-2018 at 11:39am
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Sorry I have misinformed Gary/Keno, but I tried to hold my power meter and turn the key at the same time by myself initially. Keno, yes the boat did briefly start and run after I messed under the dash. I did raise the dash, lay on my back, and check for anything like disconnects that I may have done tightening the key switch. Found nothing. So yes power is to the low pressure fuel pump. But the fuel control cell will not fill. ------------- CYS |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-01-2018 at 11:41am
| Did the pump run or just do nothing? |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-01-2018 at 12:00pm
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If it didn't run, Gary's advice below sounds like a plan At least you know your relays are good. Too bad it wasn't a broken wire, it would have been easier and cheaper
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Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: April-01-2018 at 12:52pm
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And thanks Keno as I'll now take Gary's suggestion as to running it on a bench. ------------- CYS |
Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: April-01-2018 at 9:11pm
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When power hits the low pressure pump it does work. So back to the relays... When I turn the key power is coming in to the right relay on one of the 4 terminals. There is constant power at one other terminal out of the 4. On the other relay there is power coming in at one terminal of the relay only. When the key is turned on power does not come to another one of the 4 relay terminals. So when the key is turned if power is only supposed to come into one terminal of one relay as is the case with my situation, then it pretty much can be assumed (I am assuming/guessing here) that the relay is broken. If power is supposed to come into both relays when the key is turned then the problem is before the relay. I would guess that key sourced power is only supposed to come to one relay and I can go get a replacement tomorrow. Keno/Gary, do you guys have anything you can add? Thanks again. ------------- CYS |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-01-2018 at 9:50pm
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Don''t screw around, buy 2 relays and replace them both The EEC relay passes actuating power to the fuel pump relay along with supplying the EEC computer. Little hard to understand what you're saying but I think you're thinking right. It seems like you have contradicting info from one post to the next about power to the low pressure pump. Just replace both relays as part of your troubleshooting, that way nobody will accuse you of just throwing parts at it. They're cheap so like I said get two. |
Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: April-01-2018 at 9:59pm
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Keno I have contradicted, sorry to have done that. But when I checked "the power" to the fuel pump I did get a reading, but in trying to both turn the key and hold the power meter contacts to the low pressure fuel pump I was not able to see precisely what the reading was. Evidently it wasn't anywhere close to 12 volts because the pump would not run. As soon as I did put a battery next to the pump and get two wires to it the thing worked perfectly. So my posts about power getting to the pump were incorrect. I will get two relays tomorrow. I appreciate the help. I have over the years gotten to know my boats pretty well, yet so much time passes (thankfully) between problems I often forget everything I evidently once knew fairly well a long time ago. ------------- CYS |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-01-2018 at 10:29pm
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I'm gonna boldly predict that you'll solve your issue with the new relays At least I hope you do
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-01-2018 at 10:49pm
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Be sure to do any electric fuel pump tests while the pump is hooked to fuel. These are fuel lubricated pumps and can be damaged if run dry. In 10 seconds a pump motor can be damaged when run dry. ------------- |
Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: April-01-2018 at 11:00pm
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MrMcD I did the test with the fuel pump on the boat connected to the fuel line so I think I'm ok there. Thanks. ------------- CYS |
Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 4:03pm
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Gary/Keno/MrMcD I'd like to convey my thanks for your patient help . With the replacement of both...replacing either one only did not work...relays the boat immediately cranked up. Getting ready to shove it into the water. I find it hard thinking that both relays were bad but it looks like maybe that was the case. ------------- CYS |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 4:18pm
Too bad I can't predict a lot of other things Good job, funny how you can change one thing and have something else fail at the same time |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 5:48pm
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My boat has the same relays, do they fail often? Are spares needed on board? To date my engine has not missed a beat but it is 23 years old? I do agree it is very odd they both failed at the same time maybe there was an electrical spike? Glad you got it running and nice work once again Keno. Mark ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 7:53pm
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I think they're reliable.............till you have a problem. But seriously very reliable. They're the same relays that get used for auxiliary lights etc. and they were also in the underhood relay/fuse boxes in lots of cars and had a pile of other uses. They're easy to find at about any car parts store if you know what to look for.. Considering that you can find them at a variety of prices with even the high priced ones being pretty reasonable, I'd carry 2 spares for sure. A Hella part number is 960388-31 and can be cross referenced to lots of cheaper ones. I'm cheap so I visit a friend of mine with a junkyard and rummage around under the hoods of cars headed for the crusher and rescue them to use for various different projects.
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Posted By: tryathlete
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 9:33pm
| Always nice to see the positive outcomes from the brains of CCF. It’s what brought me to CCF and owning a Correct Craft boat. |
Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: April-02-2018 at 11:19pm
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Ran the boat all over the lake today. Weehii! My 1998 Air Nautique got sunk by a friend when it had 2,000 hours on it. Never once did it fail to start. My 1999 Pro Air Nautique, bought with 900 hours on it and 500 more put on it, got burned up accidentally by my (not kidding) great (and I mean really good people) neighbors who were burning leaves next door and didn't get the fire put out completely. Bought a 1998 Sport Nautique recently with 242 hours on it. This is the only one so far that would not start....ever....in all the years and hours I've put on these boats. Yea, that's pretty reliable I'd say. All the same engines; love these engines. ------------- CYS |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-03-2018 at 12:13am
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The failure rate of the relays seems pretty high due to reports here plus the fact that some even carry spares. Yes, they are a common relays used for many applications in automotive but the application on a inductive load causes arcing of the contacts that drastically reduce the life especially on a DC inductive load. When designed, someone missed the fact that arc suppression is needed. It's a simple http://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/application_notes/reed_switches/littelfuse_magnetic_sensors_and_reed_switches_inductive_load_arc_suppression_application_note.pdf.pdf" rel="nofollow - RC circuit that's simple to add. Commercial snubber modules are even available. http://www.galco.com/comp/snubber_network.htm" rel="nofollow - Snubber modules ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-03-2018 at 1:11am
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Gosh Pete you can find the relays for around 5 bucks if you don't snag them like Ken. What does it cost to build a suppression circuit? Charles's relays lasted 20 years, Mine were 22 and were only changed because the plastic cracked that held the metal bracket to them so they didn't stay mounted on the plate. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-03-2018 at 3:44am
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Pete, I wish I had your understanding of the electronics. I have never ventured to learn how all the relays work. Nice to have your advice on here. Rakerdeal, you have some really bad luck, but as they say bad luck comes in three's. Your done now. Mark ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-03-2018 at 8:50am
So a 20 to 25 year lifespan on these things is unreliable ? Let's look at automotive uses like on say a 93 Grand Cherokee with 250,000 plus miles and it's relays are original. The fuel pump relay and the A/C compressor relay are the same as these gt-40 relays without the bracket. Now what kind of loads are those? Maybe you'd rather get towed in or paddle in if you were broken down instead of having a couple of spares that take up roughly 2 cubic inches of space and can be changed in a few minutes. You need to go back to picking on electronic modules and filing your points
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Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: April-03-2018 at 10:31am
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Relays aint what they used to be, they were good - then they took out mercury and other not responsible stuff, then they were real bad, now they are getting better again as the manufacturers learn the ways of the alternate metals available for the contacts. I don't disagree that a snubber can help but probably a bit over kill here.. If someone is burning through relays the likely cause is going to be pumps that are on their way out and are pulling higher current then they should. Once the contact surface of the relay has had a serious arching event or two that burns through the coating then they wear much quicker. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001 1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video |
Posted By: shierh
Date Posted: April-03-2018 at 11:36am
The bosch type used on your boat are pretty good but failures can happen. You can do lots of cool and simple circuits using them, here is a control panel for a diesel generator the I designed and built, works pretty good.
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Posted By: 81nautique
Date Posted: April-03-2018 at 12:17pm
Slightly off topic but No kidding, I blew a relay on a 220 3 phase oven when a car hit a pole near my shop and the power flicked on and off several times before going out completely. That was a mercury relay and I couldn't find an original replacement, Put on the recommended replacement and that thing didn't last a month. Took me a while to locate some old stock and then I couldn't get it shipped to Illlinois because it's illegal to ship Mercury now. After some creative wrangling I got my NOS Mercury relay and it's been fine since, I'm still looking for another back up though, getting hard to find the good stuff. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-03-2018 at 12:45pm
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Alan, McMaster used to have the mercury relays but checking it looks like they too discontinued them. The replacement you got, was it a mechanical relay or was it a solid state? In the past 20 years, solid states have become very popular for resistance heating for on/off as well as chopping the wave form for variable heating. If the replacement was mechanical, look into the solid state or a RC to protect the mechanicals contacts. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: April-03-2018 at 1:49pm
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Do like KENO said and just grab some from a donor vehicle and throw them in your tool box. ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-03-2018 at 8:22pm
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Rakerdeal I don't know what you bought for relays but if you walked into the auto parts store and said give me a couple of relays like this,you should look at the little schematic on the side and make sure it matches the original schematic. The originals have a resistor in parallel with the coil between the 85 and 86 contacts and hopefully your new ones do too. Here's what the schematic should look like. That blank rectangle on the left is the resistor If there is nothing going around the coil, you should get relays with the resistor for suppression of voltage surges If in doubt, if you get the PCM relays you can't go wrong The link below is good info https://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/relay-guide.html" rel="nofollow - link about relays  |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-03-2018 at 8:58pm
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Ken, Thanks. Getting the relays that Ken mentions is certainly a good idea but do understand that the resistor between the coil is arc protection for the "upstream" device (whatever is turning the relay on and off) and is not protecting the relay contacts from arc damage. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-03-2018 at 10:09pm
When I get back north I will check and see what numbers are on my old and new relays. Mark had in the past listed their part numbers but I cannot find it. The numbers on the new did not match the old but they had the correct "water resistant" plug and mounting lug that the ones that come from a Jeep don't. With Pete talking snow I'm in no hurry  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: April-03-2018 at 11:26pm
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Keno I'll see what I got tomorrow. You guys are surely having fun now interacting well above my electronic/mechanical performance or play level. Still I do enjoy reading and learning a little. ------------- CYS |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-04-2018 at 12:03am
Just trying to make sure your fix is good and doesn't lead to any other problems.
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-04-2018 at 12:42am
After staying up well past my bedtime I found this for you Gary
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: April-04-2018 at 12:50am
Your search skills are better than mine Ken  That's them and they do work (so far)------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-04-2018 at 1:07am
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They're only better on the odd numbered days of even numbered months. Lewy's link has Hella part number 007794301 as what he bought and they worked too. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-04-2018 at 1:20am
Here's the info on a Hella 87411 which supersedes the 87412 mentioned in Lewy's post and cross references to the 4RD 960388-31. and the 007794301. It's in the link at the end of this post
Cheap Chinese made piece of crap is only good for 100,000 cycles when used on an inductive load . German company with BIG factory in China http://www.rallylights.com/hella-hl87411-weatherproof-mini-relay-12v-20-40a-with-bracket.html" rel="nofollow - Hella relay |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-04-2018 at 3:27pm
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In case anybody's wondering and to validate that it's the same style relay, here's a picture of a NAPA/Echlin AR-174 relay that's easy to find. The schematic is the same as the Hella/PCM relays so it's functionally the same thing. No metal bracket though, you have to reuse the old one It's also" hecho en China", says it right on the box I paid about 9 US dollars for it. 
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Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: April-07-2018 at 2:03pm
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Keno my schematic is different so I need to get different ones. Any of those posted that you recommend? ------------- CYS |
Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: April-07-2018 at 2:09pm
Here is my current shcmatic: ------------- CYS |
Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: April-07-2018 at 2:18pm
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Keno, ordered the ones you posted from Napa/Echlin AR174. ------------- CYS |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-07-2018 at 5:08pm
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Well, the good news is that you'll have 2 good spares Looking at the schematics without getting all wordy and technical they both function the same in this application because these particular relays aren't polarity sensitive. Either ones will work equally well. You could leave what you have there and they should be good for another 20 years or until some crazy thing happens to this boat, but it's nice to have a couple of spares handy. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-07-2018 at 6:30pm
They are the same. You need to look at the terminal numbers. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: rakerdeal
Date Posted: April-07-2018 at 6:33pm
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Thanks Keno. I now have 2 extras coming with is quite ok with me. I had sort of figured my initial observation was (as usual) incorrect. I really REALLY appreciate your help. I have enjoyed this experience. I like bonding with my boats. ------------- CYS |
Posted By: craigmeade
Date Posted: March-01-2020 at 9:32am
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Hey guys I am now having a similar problem to the one described at the start of the thread so I thought i'd get it out there for your thoughts. I recently disassembled and resealed/ reassembled the line between the low pressure and high pressure pump on my 95 GT-40 in order to correct a fuel leak. When I tried to start the boat, I got a second of the engine firing and that was it. I can hear the low pressure pump running, and I also cycled the ignition several times to see if I could get more fuel in there. Eventually, the battery died. Thanks in advance for your help. Mike |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: March-01-2020 at 10:29am
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Does it consistently start and run for about a second or so or did it just do it once? Do you have a safety lanyard/tether switch? Is it plugged in? If it's unplugged it'll start and shut right back off Check your 12.5 and 20 amp breakers on the back of the engine also to be sure one is not tripped. |
Posted By: craigmeade
Date Posted: March-01-2020 at 11:10am
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It consistently fires for about a second And confirmed the lanyard is attached I will look at the breakers |