1985 2001 with 454 - dead
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=42678
Printed Date: November-21-2024 at 9:15pm
Topic: 1985 2001 with 454 - dead
Posted By: Ian
Subject: 1985 2001 with 454 - dead
Date Posted: April-26-2018 at 2:07pm
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Hey guys! New here, from Denver. Got an '85 2001 barefoot edition 454. Nice boat, great shape, new vinyl. Last night the boat died.  454, idling good, feels good sounds great. Idle thru no wake zone, give her 3/4 throttle, and she pulled hard for 3-4 seconds, then made an awful noise, and shut down. Checked all fluids, and coolant was all of a sudden empty, oil was very full (well over full) not milky but did appear to have some non-oil bubbles in it. I poured a gallon of distilled water into the heat exchanger, and then I found green coolant leaking into the bilge. Started couldn't turn over the engine, nor could I with a breaker bar.Got her back to the dock, and took her home. It was too late last night to do much, but today I'll get in there and start troubleshooting today. I assume hydro locked, and possible cracked head. I'd love some advice. I'll post in this thread as I make progress! Here she is!  ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Replies:
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: April-26-2018 at 2:12pm
| Pull the spark plugs and see what's inside |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: April-26-2018 at 2:23pm
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That's my plan when I get home this afternoon. In a worst case scenario, would a 454 from an RV work? or would that just be a giant pain in the ass, and not really workable? ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: shierh
Date Posted: April-26-2018 at 2:53pm
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There is a heavily discussed big block thread in the last few months. Engine rotation from the RV will be Left hand. Suspect you have right hand presently. Rebuild it if it isn't cracked. (oil level being high is a concern) Oil being overfilled, drain it out and see whats at the bottom of the pan. Likely antifreeze and it did not have time to mix with oil yet. |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: April-26-2018 at 3:16pm
Yeah I suspect it's right hand rotation. I'll check when I get home. Thanks I may look into ATK engines as well ------------- '85 2001 454 |
shierh wrote:Posted By: shierh
Date Posted: April-26-2018 at 4:29pm
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Well sorry your engine failed, photos show you have a pretty nice one. In the other big block thread I recommended finding an old Crusader Model 350 which is a 350hp 454. These were very good motors. Based on the GM industrial block and not automotive. They are a little heavier and are more buildable for someone interested in 4 bolt main bearings v 2 bold auto block. All of the ones I have seen are Heat Exchange motors therefore internal corrosion should not be an issue. You can find a right hand rotation as most of these were installed in twin engine boats from what I have seen. They were bullet proof so there are a ton of them out there especially from larger boats that have been repowered with diesels. If you cant find a right hand engine, not to worry, they are not hard to convert when rebuilding. GM parts are common for both right and left rotation. |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: April-26-2018 at 4:54pm
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Hopefully I didn't crack the block, and I can just rebuild this one... I'll know soon. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: April-26-2018 at 7:40pm
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Drained the oil. Got almost 3 gallons of coolant, followed by thick milkshake oil. But no visible particulates or metal shavings or foreign objects that I could find. Pulling plugs next. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: April-26-2018 at 7:52pm
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Something on the engine tag doesn't add up to me.. It doesn't have the X (indicating freshwater cooled), but it uses coolant, and has a closed loop cooling system with the heat exchanger and the seawater intake with strainer that dumps to exhaust after the heat exchanger. Am I missing something? ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: April-26-2018 at 8:02pm
First, welcome to the forum! Good to see you started things off right with a picture  Post more as you go along - this will nearly always help with our diagnosis and advise.Now, sorry to hear about your engine, but Yes, cracked somewhere. Hopefully it's just a head, though that still presents a few problems, mainly bent rods, cracked pistons, etc. ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-26-2018 at 9:02pm
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Ian, I too would like to welcome you to CCfan. Keep us posted with what you find. Regarding the "X" missing from the engine tag, there's a possibility that the fresh water cooling was added. Kit's are available. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: April-26-2018 at 10:08pm
Thanks! Happy to be here! Fortunately the boss told me not to take any short cuts, and spend the money to fix it right! 😎😎 ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: April-26-2018 at 10:09pm
Interesting. I'll have to try to track that down. I'd really like to know if it was added. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: outerbanked
Date Posted: April-26-2018 at 11:43pm
| I'd be curious to see if you have any mineral build up on your heat exchanger and exhaust manifolds. The freshwaterbpackage might be something you left in the garage during the rebuild. The freshwater parts are valuable, but I am unsure they help you, unless you visit saltwater lakes. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-27-2018 at 12:17am
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Hopefully it rotates smoothly once the spark plugs come out but with that much water/coolant in the pan you had a really big leak. The bad noise you mentioned may indicate much more damage. I have heard engines water lock and not make any bad noises, they just locked up. You could reverse them with a pry bar and they went backwards fine. Any lock up caused by hydro lock will usually bend a connecting rod. Sorry, I hope you find something minor. ------------- |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: April-27-2018 at 1:24am
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My thoughts as well Mark. Unfortunately I've heard both - a simple water reversion lockup with my old boat that cleared easily and with no damage, and a nasty hydro lock with a buddy. His was preceded by a second or two of bumping & banging and then nothing. That one didn't end well. ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: April-27-2018 at 1:58am
There's more. It's bad. After I freed the hyrdrolock I tried to turn over the motor.... it turned over fine... but it made some real angry noise when it turned. Found this delightful thing in cylinder #4  And it was #7 that was locked... and with those being on L and R banks respectively, I suspect it's all ***************ed up inside the block. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: April-27-2018 at 2:06am
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I'll get the heads off tomorrow, and then we'll know how much to ask for in a GoFundMe account! hahahahaha ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: April-27-2018 at 2:13am
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I don't visit saltwater... well not anymore, now that I'm in Colorado. But Colorado is strict to limit ANS in clean lakes, so boats have to get decontaminated when moving between bodies of water.. and the freshwater system makes the decon process much easier for the Park Rangers to perform, and quicker for me as a consumer. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Smithfamily
Date Posted: April-27-2018 at 9:49am
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Man that's sad. Welcome to the site. She sure is a good looking boat. Hopefully you have the ability for a rebuild. And if you hustle, have her back in the water for summer? Good luck with it!! ------------- Js |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: April-27-2018 at 11:22am
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Which way does this engine turn? Only Asking because some 454s in those boats turned left, and are a radically different animal regarding heads, cam, block, etc and would require care to keep the same performance. The short pylon seems odd, for a barefoot special ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: April-27-2018 at 11:33am
Did a “barefoot special” exist? I’ve seen several listed as such and assumed they were just misguided owners not realizing that the 454 was optional on the 2001. I know you’ve told us about the LH HO 454’s that were offered (dealer installed?) in BFN’s and SN’s during the 80’s... are these the same thing, or a different animal? Curious what distinguished them from regular models. |
Posted By: Duane in Indy
Date Posted: April-27-2018 at 11:59am
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Found this delightful thing in cylinder #4 When we pull plugs like this in the Funny Car (and often) our Crew Chief usually hollers "She's coming apart boys, tear her down"  ------------- Keep it as original as YOU want it 1978 Mustang (modified) |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: April-27-2018 at 1:50pm
Engine turns Right. I don't know for sure that it's a barefoot special. Just what I was told by someone. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: April-27-2018 at 1:51pm
Yep. Starting the teardown today! ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: April-27-2018 at 7:04pm
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Just as I suspected. Motor is shot. Who's got a recommendation on a place to order a new one? ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-27-2018 at 7:20pm
What did you find? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: April-27-2018 at 8:55pm
3 bullet holes 
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Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: April-27-2018 at 9:22pm
Try Jim at 207-252-099 six. I believe he has a RH 454 that came from a PCM. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: April-27-2018 at 11:15pm
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The Spark plug looks like an impact hit. Is there a fractured cylinder in the block? Rod out the side of the block? It may be able to be repaired even if you need to put a sleeve in one cylinder, a sleeve is a 100% repair if done by a quality shop. ------------- |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: April-27-2018 at 11:17pm
#4 piston destroyed #4 cylinder, piston rings jammed into the walls and head... Connecting assumed broken - I can hear it flopping around when I turn it over. Unknown damage to rotating assembly, that's just what I found in the R bank... haven't checked L side yet. But it's enough to know it's DOA. Gonna order a new one, with electric ignition, and all the new fancy toys I guess..  ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: April-27-2018 at 11:44pm
True. I don't know the extent of the internal damage, but it appears to be beyond rebuildable. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: April-28-2018 at 2:04am
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Sorry to hear the bad news Ian, but I had figured as much when you said in your opening paragraph that you heard an 'awful noise'. In my experience that is never a quick, easy or inexpensive fix. On the bright side, now you can chose new power, get it set up the way you want it with as much power as you want and know that she'll have a very long life thereafter   ( I know of what I speak )------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-29-2018 at 9:58am
Ian, I know many states are going all out with the cleaning process to go after the invasives. Wisconsin has only gotten to the point of using pressure washers for the externals but no internal flushing yet. Hopefully they will get to that point. I'm curious on the process. How do they do it? Where do they make connections and how does fresh water cooling make it easier? "ear muffs" and fake-a-lakes? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: April-29-2018 at 9:36pm
Yep, I've already gotten over the cost of a new motor. Now I'm on to the excitement of having a new engine! ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: April-29-2018 at 9:43pm
It's 2 minutes at 140*F. So they hook up a fake-a-lake, or whatever adapter works for your boat, then flush until the temp of the water exiting the exhaust is a minimum of 140*F then they flush for 2 minutes, then it's done. Same for ballast, anchor, etc.. The fresh water cooling means they don't have to climb under the boat and try to put the plunger onto the intake... They can just reach over the side, flush out the intake and then the engine - all thru the fresh water strainer. I don't know if sea water cooled boats also have that, as my previous X-star, X-2, and X-9 all had closed loop cooling. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: April-29-2018 at 10:04pm
Somethings not adding up.  Both fresh water cooling (closed cooling) and raw water (sea water) cooling have thru hull water pick ups in the bottom of their hulls. Do you have a flushing connection on the suction side of the RWP? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: April-30-2018 at 3:13pm
In effort to simplify my inquiry, Tim it appears I mistakenly validated the term barefoot special, perpetuating the rural legend. ugh I can only add that three 2001 boats with the HO I've had seat at ski (feet) time in, one an '83, one and 84, and one an 85, each had the tall pylon from the BF, so it caught my eye. Upon talking to an original buyer, one had to have some street cred for them to build one, a history of supporting the sport responsibly, and buyers understanding the usage and limitations. as it appears they knew it was a ride too wild for general availability. and resultant monkeyshines in all but the better conditions. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: May-01-2018 at 12:21am
Yeah. There is a flushing access port in the boat. it gives access to the cooling system, and then able to flush out the thru hull water pick up, (when not running). ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: May-01-2018 at 2:58am
It's possible that raw water cooled engines have an internal connection too, but I've never owned a raw water cooled boat before. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-01-2018 at 7:46am
Ian, Flushing connections such as the infamous CCfan "Timmy T" designed by Tim, are an add on. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: May-01-2018 at 7:12pm
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New engine on order from Michigan Motorz. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: May-01-2018 at 7:35pm
Also, found the problem ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: May-02-2018 at 12:06am
Deja Vu .... Been there myself, very recently! My machine shop was 6 weeks backlogged but is finally caught up to my build and is working on it now. They should be done sometime next week! ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: gt40KS
Date Posted: May-02-2018 at 12:11am
Wow, don't think I've ever seen that before. Sure explains it all. ------------- JCCI 1995 Ski Nautique GT40 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: May-02-2018 at 12:07pm
So weird to me. I've never seen a camshaft blow up like that! ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: shierh
Date Posted: May-02-2018 at 12:59pm
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Friend always says "nothing in moderation" your engine goes along with this. If you are going to break it then blow it apart. Good news is that you get a new engine in what appears to be a pretty nice boat. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: May-02-2018 at 3:07pm
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If my eyes are seeing your picture well it looks like a visible broken camshaft? If the cam is broke you have bigger problems underneath. Usually a broken rod comes around and breaks the camshaft like that. If the crankshaft took an impact shock from the broken rod the odds are it will have cracks also. Good thing you ordered a new engine. With big damage the old engine may not qualify for a full core credit if your new motor was purchased with an exchange agreement. ------------- |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: May-02-2018 at 4:41pm
Yeah, #4 rod snapped. $500 core charge, I don't know for sure if this will qualify for core return.. I haven't pulled the bottom end yet, but with all of the coolant in the oil pan it likely has too much damage. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: May-02-2018 at 4:48pm
Thanks man! I think it's a pretty nice boat, and new engine will make it that much nicer! ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: May-04-2018 at 7:19pm
She's in pre-op now. Surgery will happen next week. She's getting a new heart!
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: May-06-2018 at 3:56pm
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You should get at least a partial credit. The heads should be good. They will keep most of the $500 core credit but in reality you are giving them back one messed up engine. In the failure you have most often a rod bearing has gone out and locks that rod to the crankshaft, since it can no longer rotate the power of the other 7 cylinders pushing it snaps the bad rod and the remaining part swings around at engine speed hits the camshaft and punches holes in the cylinder wall. A huge amount of damage done very quickly. I have also seen similar damage when a piston pin locks in the piston. Same issue the rod can no longer rotate so it snaps and the damage starts. Piston pin lock is usually caused by abnormal cylinder temps. Lean burn or timing. The rod bearing failure is most often oil starvation which is usually seen at the rod farthest from the oil pump, #1 rod. ------------- |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: May-06-2018 at 9:38pm
I just moved the boat from sea level to 6k feet.. so if anything it should be running rich.. But the longer I think about this, the more I question if I checked the oil before I ran it.. Either way, the engine is shot, and a new one is on order! ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: May-22-2018 at 11:02pm
Well the shop around here screwed up and took 3 damn weeks to order the engine after I paid them for it.....  But new engine is here now, and boat is in the shop. About to have a new powerplant! ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: StuW
Date Posted: June-09-2018 at 2:41pm
Looks like factory big oval port heads? Do you know if your new motor will have those too? ------------- 1982 Barefoot Nautique PCM 454 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: June-10-2018 at 1:37pm
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Yeah, the new engine also has the oval ports. We made sure to check casting numbers on block and heads before we ordered it. New engine is in, will be back on the water tomorrow! Any sparkplug recommendations? The ones in the old engine were Champion RV8C ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: June-10-2018 at 6:28pm
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I have run Champion for years with no issues. If this engine still has a flat tappet camshaft, ( not a roller can engine ) make sure to follow the start up procedure to break in the new cam. As soon as possible on start up it needs to be brought up to 1,500 to 2,300 RPM and kept above 1,500 for the first 20 minutes of run time. Failure to do this results in camshaft failure. Some engine suppliers will run the engine to do this before selling the engine. Most do not. A high quality oil is also necessary. The Diesel oils available from Delo and Rotella are cheap but have the right ZDDP to help with your break in. On start up quickly check for oil and coolant leaks and get it spinning above 1,500 RPM. Verify your timing is really close to proper setting. Plan ahead make sure you have a way to keep it cool in this break in period. The goal here is to get the lifters spinning as the engine is running. Once the lifters break into your camshaft it is good for life normally. Enjoy your new toy, I hope it has lots of power. ------------- |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: June-11-2018 at 12:11am
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Bought new plugs this morning. The parts store didn't have champion, so I ended up with Autolite. I've heard the AC Delco ones just don't make the 454 very happy. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-11-2018 at 1:03am
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I've heard some people like Ginger, some like Mary Ann and some like Gilligan Same thing with spark plugs as oil, oil filters etc..........everybody has a favorite |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: June-11-2018 at 1:20am
 as long as you're not screaming "DON'T USE THOSE PLUGS", then I think I'll be ok------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-11-2018 at 1:33am
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Sure, and Autolite numbers are easier to remember too.
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Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 4:03pm
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Ok, new motor is in (I'm told it runs, shop called and said so), but now they say the transmission doesn't work. They said at idle in neutral the prop slowly turns backwards, but with no torque, can stop it by hand, but in forward or reverse nothing happens. Trans was rebuilt last year. What the hell? It's a 72c. I'm gonna take it home from the shop and not let them touch it anymore, I guess I gotta pull the trans and rebuild it again. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 5:16pm
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Sounds to me like you put in a new engine that rotates backwards from the original. And your transmission has a slight dirty neutral and isn't indexed for the same rotation as the engine, so no forward or reverse and in this case spinning backwards your dirty neutral makes the shaft spin slowly in reverse. Are you using the same starter or did you get a new one to go with the new engine ? What's your firing order? What was the old firing order? Take a picture of the propeller Knowing the actual firing order (not necessarily what's cast into the intake manifold)and the prop rotation will tell a lot about what your issue may or may not be. |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 5:49pm
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It's at Tommy's of Colorado. A professional shop. They ordered the engine and did all the work. I'll go see it this afternoon and try to figure out what's up with it. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 5:52pm
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Is there a way to know if it's reverse rotation (like it should be) from just looking at it? So when I go check on it this afternoon, I'd like to be able to make sure they didn't screw this up ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 5:54pm
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 6:08pm
How do I determine actual firing order if I didn't build it? I have the engine tag from the original with the firing order printed on it. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 6:32pm
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How does the firing order (provided both engines have correct rotation) effect the transmission? I'm not totally sure I understand how that functions? Also will the engine tag be correct on firing order? ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 6:41pm
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Look at your distributor cap, find #1 plug wire and going CLOCKWISE around the cap follow the wires. It'll be either 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2 normal automotive or 1 2 7 5 6 3 4 8 reverserotation We'll worry about this part along with a picture of the prop first Edit You can compare your tag to the firing order you physically have from following the wires around the cap And use Pete's diagram for cylinder numbering |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 6:41pm
Here's the cylinder numbering for the 454:  Starting with #1, trace the plug wires from the distributor to the cylinders clockwise ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 6:45pm
haha As soon as I get out of work I'll head over there and take a pic of the prop. The old engine was reverse rotation. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 6:48pm
If the new engine rotates the opposite and they didn't index the trans pump to the new rotation, then the pump will not pump fluid and develop any pressure to operate the forward and reverse clutch packs. I'm getting the feeling that Tommy doesn't know what he's doing!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 6:59pm
It has felt this way since right after I paid the deposit and had them order the engine. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 7:03pm
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You can just casually ask if they put a new starter on it too or if it's the same one the previous engine had That'll be a good piece of info.for ya' Same rotation would use same starter. Opposite rotation takes a different rotation starter |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 7:16pm
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I wonder too if you can get a look at the paperwork they have from the engine supplier,maybe that will give some info on rotation. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 8:09pm
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Which way does the distributor turn on a reverse rotation engine? Or do all distributors spin the same way? ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 8:13pm
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Worse case if they put the wrong engine in is they owe you a prop. Clock the pump, put on a L prop and go skiing. You don't have a bunch of time to waste this summer. And as far a inboards go, in Denver its pretty much Tommys sand box. They have a good rep well earned. However....... People make boo boos and a young "tech" who wasn't even a wet spot in mommies panties when reverse rotation engines were the norm may not have the slightest clue. That would explain the "transmission doesn't work and I have no idea why" communication. Go see if there is a (mechanic) running around there that looks like me. Old and pissed off. That's the guy you want. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 8:19pm
On Chevy's it'll rotate clockwise no matter which direction the engine rotates, except for some pretty rare offshore race engines that cost way more than anything we'd be dealing with here. You'll find your distributor rotating clockwise, so that's not a good indicator of rotation.of the engine. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 8:51pm
No way,no how would I accept this as an answer. It would be like giving you a mirror if they flopped the ring gear on a differential repair ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 8:59pm
Ian, I agree with Gary, DO NOT accept a LH prop. After seeing Tommy's web site, I'm getting real concerned.
Professional in what? Looks like the complete staff including the "techs"are just into skurfer boards, boarding, tubing, surfing and skiing?? Just as John mentioned, I doubt their "techs" would know what a RR engine was!! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 9:14pm
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Here's a funny story..... I went back to the shop, and verified that the prop spins clockwise, and climbed in the boat and looked at the distributor........ WRONG ENGINE, it's a standard rotation engine. So I go inside to talk to the service rep and the mechanic, I tell them my concern, and they are adamant that it is the correct engine - the one I ordered. I explained that I specifically ordered a reverse rotation engine, and they didn't agree. I opened up my phone and found an email from April 27, that I sent to them so that they could order my new engine, and attached to the email was the picture of my original engine identification placard. Where it clearly shows R. Either way, someone else gets to eat the cost of this mistake, and I don't have to buy another new engine, and labor for the install. So, I find it funny, because I was really stressed today as the transmission fiasco was gonna put me over budget, but now I can laugh a little, and wait for them to fix the mistake and get me a new engine - the right one this time - and get me back on the water. You guys are amazing! Thanks so much for all the help! I would not have been able to figure this out without yall's help! ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 9:41pm
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Ian, Why Tommy's and not: Action Watersports Colorado www.awsboatsco.com 4404 E 60th Ave Commerce City, CO 80022 ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 10:09pm
Honestly, I didn't do a lot of research. Tommy's is really close to me, and I called them when I first blew the motor to ask some questions, and the guy on the phone sounded knowledgable and friendly. Besides, mistakes happen. It's not a huge deal. I'm not mad. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 10:26pm
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Well at least you won't have to worry about the transmission. You can live with a mild dirty neutral for a long time. As the fluid heats up to normal temperature it tends to get "less dirty" for lack of better words. Don't mind Pete, he's a professional toober and Tommy's wouldn't sponsor him a few years ago
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Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 10:41pm
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For some reason I couldn't load this page, so I wasn't able to see everyone's comments before I posted the story. Tommy's is a big name around here - but mistakes happen, no problem. When I say "professional" I mean that it wasn't just some shade tree mechanic, but an established shop. The mechanic said it would be quicker and easier to clock the pump and put at LH prop on. But I immediately said I would like to keep my boat the way it was built, and the mechanic was quick to agree and say that he was just letting me know some options. Yep, dirty neutral doesn't really concern me. Before the engine failure, neutral in the water left the boat completely still. Tomorrow morning Tommy's is going to call the engine supplier and have a chat to see who made the mistake, and who gets to eat the cost... So I should know more tomorrow morning. My expectation is that I will be excluded from the drama between the supplier and the shop, and they will re order the correct engine, and put my boat as a priority, and get me finished ASAP. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 11:06pm
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Whatevs.. Good luck Ian, have a great summer, glad everything worked out! ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: June-12-2018 at 11:10pm
Yeah man! You too! I'll get back on the water soon! Hope y'all are enjoying your summer! ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: June-13-2018 at 1:06am
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So now I'm curious, could they have done any damage to my transmission by running it backwards for an unknown amount of time? I'm not in the business of trying to screw anyone over, but if it's possible that it sustained damage, I would like to have it rebuilt... Since it was just rebuilt last year. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: June-13-2018 at 1:12am
I was with you until here. Something tells me your 1985 boat is not a priority. |
Posted By: Ian
Date Posted: June-13-2018 at 1:22am
I agree with you. I'm a small fish in the big money pond that is "big wake boats". I didn't buy the boat from them, I haven't spent a ton of money with them (a ton to me, isn't much to them). They put my boat on the back burner for other boats during the time that they were doing the motor swap. I don't fault them for that, I'm sure I could have said, "I'll pay whatever you want finish this by friday" and it would be done. I understand how money works. ------------- '85 2001 454 |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: June-13-2018 at 2:23am
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With people and with shops you learn good ones from bad ones when things go south. If this shop stands up and fixes your issues as promised they are a class shop. If not throw them under the bus. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-13-2018 at 9:26am
I doubt they ran it long enough to do any damage to anything. It was never able to engage the clutches since the pump couldn't pump anything. If anything would be affected it would be the pump gears but they're really quite robust and there would have been residual oil coating everything in the pump. I don't ever remember anybody having a problem after reorienting the pump (or in your case, I guess you'd say reorienting the engine) It sounds like you should try to get something in writing from Tommy's that if the transmission fails within some agreed upon period of time, the fix is on them for peace of mind |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: June-13-2018 at 9:38am
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Its already got a dirty neutral and you want the shop to marry it? Check please. ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-13-2018 at 9:56am
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Ian, I too highly doubt there's any damage to the trans. The gears don't care which way they turn for ether rotation. Indexing the pump is just positioning the front housing to line up the fluid inlet and outlet. With a wrong indexing, there's still fluid around the gears, it just won't pump to build the pressure. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-13-2018 at 10:24am
I checked with this guy and he says that Ian's gonna have a day of much discussion with the dealer about leaving that engine in the boat, we'll give you a discount, we'll buy you a new prop etc And some posting here for opinions |
Posted By: baitkiller
Date Posted: June-13-2018 at 10:31am
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Carnac knows all.. I agree that much discussion is forthcoming, ideas batted about and options presented. Dollars weighed against practicality and measured with emotion. All while the short clock of a Colorado summer is tick tick ticking away. What will transpire? Tune in later and find out! ------------- Jesus was a bare-footer............. |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: June-13-2018 at 10:34am
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LOL Ken and probably right on.. Ian better go in with plenty of info about how the hulls are designed for RH rotation and the adverse affects of converting it to LH. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-13-2018 at 10:37am
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Looking at https://www.tommyscolorado.com/" rel="nofollow - Tommy's website, I get the impression they are more sport equipment oriented than boat service. The majority of their team members are shown out on the water. Ian, As mentioned, it is highly recommended to not accept a LH prop. When you discussed the rotation problem with them, did the "tech" bring up trans pump indexing or did you have to tell them what it is? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Hollywood
Date Posted: June-13-2018 at 11:35am
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One short summer waiting for the "right" engine or 20 summers dealing with a left and engine? I'd wait. It takes 20% of my weight full port just to balance a 2001 with a RH prop. |
Posted By: Smithfamily
Date Posted: June-13-2018 at 11:55am
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Well this turned out to be an challenge! I would also insist on the correct rotation motor. I would calmly explain that this is their business and problem to correct. If they refuse or try to shift responsibility to your "not ordering the correct motor", I would get an attorney involved. I am sure this is not an inexpensive installation. Why should you settle for less? Sure am sorry for your troubles. I thought we would be skiing by now. ------------- Js |