New Project boat. 74 Mustang 17
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Category: General Correct Craft Discussion
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Discription: Anything Correct Craft
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47882
Printed Date: September-20-2024 at 11:17pm
Topic: New Project boat. 74 Mustang 17
Posted By: Basketcase
Subject: New Project boat. 74 Mustang 17
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 10:42am
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Hey everyone. I wanted to share my new project boat. I consider myself an amateur boat restorer and I love finding old hulls worth bringing back to life. Typically I've worked on SeaCrafts and one bass boat (that was not worth restoration, but was still fun) so this boat is totally different to me. I bought this boat knowing that all the wood is rotten and the engine was "seized". I'm quite familiar with stringer and floor replacement and this boat looks fairly simple in that regard except for some careful geometry to ensure engine alignment. I have a plan for that. The hull is in great original shape with all it's parts and pieces. The gelcoat is really nasty on the bottom so I'll be doing a full gel job. I did not anticipate how destroyed the motor would be. Hopefully the crank is OK. In the oilpan I found 3-1/2 connecting rods. Parts of 3 shattered pistons. A pile of bearings and other miscellaneous engine components that should be attached to things. Somehow, things did not get too banged up in there so I am hopeful. I think if the crank is bad, I'll probably switch to standard rotation due to parts availability and cost. On to the pics! Some of you may have seen in on the FB group while I was waiting activation here.      
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Replies:
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 11:26am
Adam, Welcome to restoration world!  Keep us informed as you start the tear down. I hope you've found some of the great threads here that will help you through the process. If not, read and or ask.I encourage you to think hard about changing the rotation. When you get into the engine, take a close look at what components could still be used to keep it s RR. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Basketcase wrote:Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 11:46am
Thank you for the welcome. Looking forward to getting this on the water. (it will be a while) What is the benefit of keeping the RR? Reading through the threads it seems like parts can be a bear to source. For instance, if my crank is bad, finding one means most likely finding another RR 302 motor, yes? A 5.0 mustang motor can be had almost free around me. That was my thinking anyway. Is there a significant advantage to the RR? |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 12:08pm
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Crank is the least of your worries, only main differences between a rr and a lr are the wick lines at the seal area. More a concern is the rear main seal. If it’s a 2 piece seal block you might have to have it machined to a one piece type seal, 2 piece rr seals are difficult to find. Just have to wait and see what you have left ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 12:11pm
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A 5.0 block would be a option but you can’t mix some rotating parts due to the fact early engines use a 28oz imbalance and the 5.0’s use 50oz ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 12:26pm
Handling. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 12:27pm
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Hmm.... A srd rotation five oh from a Craigslist or junkyard explorer, and a power plus 1.23 gearbox would get you going cheap, fast, and keep the rotation correct... ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 1:04pm
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Except for the fact that the 1.23 box is a $2k item. RH parts are a lot cheaper. The smaller cc’s I’ve driven that were repowered with LH powertrain a (spinning LH props) have some very poor, borderline dangerous handling characteristics. |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 1:19pm
Really? Wow. That is good to know. That is what I need to know. If it is worth the extra effort to keep it RR then perhaps I will. I wonder what it is about the rotation that makes it so different. The rest of the boat is symmetrical. What makes it handle poorly, any ideas? |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 1:53pm
Wish I knew someone who would pay that much for one! Are you sure it's not the reverse handling that you can't get past? |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 2:03pm
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Sanger handles decent, so do the MC I drive. Malibu leans more than I care for but tolerable. Vintage cc with lefty = dangerous. Serious chine locker. Too narrow to overcome the Stbd lean I guess. I don’t care much which way the boat backs up, seems pretty inconsequential... though it makes sense to mount the boom opposite your prop rotation. $500 for a good used transmission with reasonable hours seems in the ballpark but I can’t find one. They’re $2k new for the improved version including damper and cooler. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 2:04pm
Not really. Take a look at the aft end of the hull bottom. You may find more hook on one side near the transom.. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 2:23pm
Pulling right in reverse is actually better when you are by yourself and if your the type that doesn't ever allow your boat to touch a dock. UT's boat is the only LH old boat I've driven and I did not open it up. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 2:30pm
| Agree to disagree on the docking. Either can be done smoothly with practice but I’d rather have the stern pulling away from the dock than towards it... if soft/touchless docking is your preference. |
Posted By: bkhallpass
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 2:35pm
Yep. BKH ------------- Livin' the Dream |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 2:35pm
| I drove the RRs for the first 22 years of my inboard boat driving, then LHs for the next 18 years, until we owned both. Only challenge now is to remember what boat I'm in. Malibus do lean hard to the right. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 4:37pm
I guess none of you guys ever spent any time in South Florida  They all drive open fishing boats so they can run all the way to the front to keep from crashing into the dock. Many bows have battle scars from when they don't move fast enough. My Shamrock walks to the right which is perfect for docking in our canal since I tie up on the starboard side. Something to do with that keel makes it walk straight over when bumping to from forward to reverse several times.------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 4:45pm
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Having driven RR all my life, it was a weird feeling/learning curve the first time I docked a friends MC! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Riley
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 5:43pm
Nothing like the voice of experience 
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Posted By: quinner
Date Posted: August-07-2019 at 7:30pm
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If looking for some quick HP gains, know where you can get some new stickers for that engine!! ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1143" rel="nofollow - Mi Bowt |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 11:49am
I do like to keep things as original looking as possible so I would probably be interested in a decal set for the motor. So upon further investigation, The block is junk. The casting on the bottom of two of the cylinders is actually broken off from all of the trauma. I've got some gouges on the crank as well. Not sure how deep they can be before it is not repairable. At the least I'm looking at a new block, possibly block/crank. Camshaft looks like it was spared.    
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 12:08pm
Wow! Yup, that engine had a major. Maybe these https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=running+engine+on+wd40+youtube&view=detail&mid=769590805783CD565428769590805783CD565428&FORM=VIRE" rel="nofollow - guys worked on it!  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 12:16pm
That video looks like a lot of fun! These aren't even the ugliest pictures. Just the ones that show the damage to block and crank. I think it went like this. "Oh crap, The engine is making some awful clanging noises, we better get back to the dock FAST". BOOM. clang bang....all noise stops. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 1:10pm
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That was me and Pete starring in that video He's the excitable one
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Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 2:44pm
Since I know we all love carnage, here is the contents of the oil pan 
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 2:51pm
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If it were me I'd look for a 97-01 5.0 explorer engine or if not easily available a 5.0 out of a '93 and down Mustang or '91 and down Crown Vic/Grand Marquis. Use your manifold,flywheel,harmonic balancer,distributor,oil pan etc and have at it. With all those parts flying around you might not be able to use the original cam either but RR cams can still be sourced. Might be wise with that mixture of parts to have it balanced as well ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 3:09pm
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Beware the old dampener and flywheel would be wrong imbalance, but that is solvable ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 3:55pm
What about the crank? Don't I need an RR crankshaft? |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 4:01pm
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That works out for you,one piece seal cranks have no wick lines- you just need a reverse rotation main seal. You can tell your machinist that the engine is RR they can polish the crank for that direction. Like stated before though he needs to know that it needs to be balanced to 28 oz imbalance rather than a late model 5.0's 50 oz imbalance. Your doing that because you need to use the original flywheel off your old engine to get starter match up. Might as well use the original dampner too since it's 28 oz imbalance and then the timing marks are correct and any pulley's match as well. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 4:11pm
Ah. That's the piece I was missing. You read so many threads on the subject and its hard to decipher some of them. Sooooooooo. Then what about this. Locally to me there is a 351 with GT40 heads from a fuel injected nautique. Is that worth pursuing or am I over complicating things? He wan'ts 500 bucks. It is a long block with the heads off and it needs an exhaust valve. (small chip). I know I'd need new intake manifold but what about the rest? |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 4:18pm
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It would be doable but it is not a RR engine either later boats did the reversing in the trans. Possible to have motor box fitting issues as well but not positive. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 4:40pm
| I figured it wouldn't be RR but if it is just a matter of changing the seal and polishing the crank properly, seems doable. But a mustang or truck motor I can get almost free any day of the week. This just seemed like a good opportunity if it wasn't too much trouble. |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 4:54pm
I notice you exclude the F150s. Is there a reason for that, or will the truck motors work as well? |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 5:04pm
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Well an explorer is a truck No reason why you could not use one but trucks are usually driven, until one way or another, dead. What you need is a Crown Vic with 80k driven by a little old lady and then wrecked by her grandson 😳 ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 5:08pm
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Got it! Thanks for the info, Gary. Super helpful.
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 5:09pm
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Gary's more of a low rider type guy Here's the PCM part number for a 1 piece rear main seal for a reverse rotation 302 R047127 Good luck finding one or something that cross references to it |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 5:11pm
| Are you implying they are made from Unobtanium? |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 5:38pm
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It's like an Easter egg hunt If you stumble into a few, buy them all. The front seal on the timing cover is easy, you can get a smooth lipped one that works for either direction of rotation. 302 and 351 use the same timing cover so the seal is the same for either. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-08-2019 at 6:16pm
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See the thread in the link, page 4 the 4th post from the bottom there's a post by Reid P saying he had 25 of them in 2011. Numerous people on here know him and could probably put you in touch with him or you could email him thru the site. He hasn't been logged on in about a year, so a PM won't do much good. http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20029&PN=4" rel="nofollow - link |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-09-2019 at 11:20am
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I'll give it a shot. Thanks! Anything to know with Roller vs Non-Roller blocks? Did I read that a RR rotation cam for rollers is not a thing? (reasonably) I think I can use a non-roller cam/lifter setup in a roller block but not the other way around? Yes? This is my first time playing with a pushrod motor. I've done plenty of overhead cam motors but this is my first old V8. |
Posted By: Risley00
Date Posted: August-09-2019 at 3:38pm
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Hi TRBenj, "Vintage cc with lefty = dangerous. Serious chine locker." The one we're restoring is a 76 CC Tique, we are starting to debate rotation- what is "chine locker"? I'm an avid waterskier and he's good with engines- but when we get her in the water I want to have many an excellent ski run behind her. Thanks for the extra knowledge! |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-09-2019 at 4:11pm
| Stick with a RH prop in that boat. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-09-2019 at 4:12pm
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Risley, In your other thread, I asked what's up with the original engine? If at all possible, stick with the RR engine. If "he" is good with engines, tell him parts for a RR engine can be placed into another standard rotation engine making it a RR. Chine lock is when the chine (the intersection of the hull side to the hull bottom) digs into the water causing the boat to roll/flip. NOT good! ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: 67 ski nat
Date Posted: August-10-2019 at 11:32am
| Wow. Nice project you are really getting into it with the motor rotation thread. I will be rebuilding my RR soon so I’m interested in seeing your path and info. The rotation stuff is fairly technical. Good luck. Boat looks worth your trouble |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-10-2019 at 11:40am
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I do think the boat is worthy of restoration. I'm noticing that reverse rotation rear main seal are readily available for a 351.....I think I would only need a camshaft and intake manifold. I wonder how much the extra half inch deck height really effects the motor box clearance. |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: August-10-2019 at 12:23pm
| Same box it’ll fit. |
Posted By: 63 Skier
Date Posted: August-10-2019 at 2:44pm
When the boat is designed, the decision of which side the helm is put on, plus some subtle hull design details, are done with the prop rotation in mind. I'm not sure on the older hulls if there is much if any hull asymmetry involved, but they have narrower beams than newer boats and so are much more sensitive to reactions from prop rotation. I think what Tim and others here have found is that it's not just the torque lean from the rotation, which you can feel if you rev the engine in neutral, but at high speed you've got steering issues as well causing it to chine lock. Chine lock at high speed means the boat tries to turn hard and stop at the same time as the engine is trying to make it go fast and the result is everyone being thrown hard into one side of the boat, or ejected. The more I've read here over the years, the more convinced I am that there's really never a good reason to change the original designed rotation. ------------- '63 American Skier - '98 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 10:53am
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Thanks for the info, everyone. You have convinced me to stay RR. Now I just need to decide how. It really looks like one of the best options could be to go with a 351 since the rear main is available in RR. Any down side to this? I know I need a new intake manifold to do this, but what can I use from my 302 if I decide to got this route? Dizzy? Cam? Would there be any other surprises waiting for me if I go this direction? As I mentioned, it seems like a 351 short block and GT40 heads for 500 locally is a reasonable deal. He said he also has an intake manifold too. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 6:23pm
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The distributors don't interchange The flywheel and harmonic balancer from the 302 of that time frame were 28 oz imbalance and will work on the 351 The timing cover will interchange, you want to use the one from the 302 (if you have a marine 351 it would be the same cover) They're different from the auto versions mainly because they have a boss for mounting the raw water pump bracket that the auto ones don't. The RR starter from the 302 will work The bellhousing is the same also. Exhaust manifolds are the same Engine and transmission mounts are the same 302's usually had a 450 cfm Holley, the 351's had a 600 cfm Holley Cam and lifters could be reused if there was no damage from all the debris flying around when things broke. Like you said, you need a new intake. Alternator wiring harness etc from the 302 will work |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-12-2019 at 6:43pm
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Awesome. Thanks, Ken. Its great to have all this info in one place, and I'm sure itll help others. It sure seems like the way to go. I've had no luck on that rear main for the 302 but the 351 seal is out there. It is tough to decide. The deciding factor is that rear main. I'd be fine with a 302. Seems like a lot of parts to buy just because I cant find that rear main. I sent Reid P an email but didn't hear anything back. If anyone wants to reach out to him, I'd be grateful! |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-15-2019 at 1:59pm
| Ok. So I'm still looking at my options. I'm finding a fair amount of older 2 piece seal 302 motors in standard rotation. A local machine shop says they machine off the knurling, add a sleeve and run the crank smooth with the 2 piece seal. What do we think of that? I did find a post from someone that had done it and was working fine. Anyone have any input or experience with doing that? |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-15-2019 at 2:22pm
| I imagine that was Gary's whose post you read and he'll be along to tell you it's been working fine |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-15-2019 at 2:40pm
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I never was successful with that scenario and 2 piece seal. After the second try I was told to use a rope seal which is what is in there now. Keep in mind this was before the internet. Rope seals are difficult to find now as well. If I was to attempt this again I would seriously think about having my block machined for a 1 piece seal. Either search hard for a RR seal or try a premium non wicked seal and see what happens IMHO. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-15-2019 at 3:07pm
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Thank you for the testimonial. More data is good. BTW, Reid does not own the dealership anymore, and they do not have any of the seals :( |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-15-2019 at 3:25pm
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I’m just shooting my mouth off but I think the original plan of a late model engine would be the way to go something like an explorer with the side benefit of having GT P heads. Kens got a part number for for the correct flywheel. What happened to the 351 idea? ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-15-2019 at 3:44pm
| The 351 is still an option, but I'm just still researching. I actually found a RR351 local to me for a good price. Seems like it might be my best bet. |
Posted By: zwoobah
Date Posted: August-15-2019 at 7:26pm
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No replacement for displacement! Costs on building a 351 should be similar to building a 302. You can likely sell your existing 302 bits for the same cost as used 351 bits. ------------- 1968 Mustang 16 - 351W powered |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-16-2019 at 10:12am
Not much left of my 302 to sell. lol. Haven't looked at the 351 yet. Not sure what it came out of and what is attached to it. I think I plan to go look at it next weekend. Fingers crossed it looks good and we can work a deal on it. |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-16-2019 at 11:46am
Are you sure it can't be salvaged?
------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: August-16-2019 at 12:04pm
| Lol. I think the drain plugs are still OK. |
Posted By: Basketcase
Date Posted: October-28-2019 at 11:27am
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So the drive train problem is solved! Yesterday I picked up a rebuilt RR PCM 351 with rebuilt velvet drive from a guy that rebuilt the whole thing and found out the boat was rotten and gave up on the boat. It had been sitting (properly stored) for a few years in the garage, and he just wanted it gone it seems. As much as I was looking forward to rebuilding something myself, having this be "drop in ready" is pretty nice. We ran it on the stand and it sounds very nice. Complete running motor with all reman accessories for less than a reman long block from one of the online rebuilders. Add to that a rebuilt trans and I'm a happy camper for sure. Now it's time to get itchy with some glass work! |