'79 351w Issues - From great, to bad in 2 hrs ??
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48090
Printed Date: November-27-2024 at 6:49am
Topic: '79 351w Issues - From great, to bad in 2 hrs ??
Posted By: Off Trail
Subject: '79 351w Issues - From great, to bad in 2 hrs ??
Date Posted: September-27-2019 at 7:32pm
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I have a '79 Ski with the 351w Commander in it. Last winter I did GT40p's, roller rockers, performer intake, and brand new QF600 carb. I ran the boat a bit at home in colorado at 8,200ft of elevation just to make sure it worked, then re-jetted back to sea level and brought it to Wisconsin for 2 weeks in August. I got the carb dialed in within a couple hours and put another 10-15 hours on the boat over 2 weeks - and it started and ran great the whole time. It was over-revving slightly with the Acme 540, so I talked to Acme and ordered a 430. I had siphoned the tank dry before the trip and filled it with only non-e premium. Put the boat away dry when I left. Went back to colorado for almost 2 months and just got back to Wisconsin yesterday. Pulled the boat out of storage, put the new prop on, topped it off with non-e premium and took it to the launch. It backfired once on startup, but then seemed to run pretty normally as I left the launch. Within about 15-20 minutes I noticed a very slight stumble on acceleration, but it cruised and idled fine. Continued driving for another hour or so and the stumble on acceleration became more and more noticeable, and it started to stumble slightly at idle. Turned around and headed back to the launch. By the time I put it on the trailer it had a slight shudder at idle that couldn't be adjusted at all with the mix screws and wasn't running right at any speed under 3k rpm. Pulled it out, did some research, and did a visual check of everything. Crossed my fingers (wishful thinking) that somehow the prop had too much pitch and was causing the stumble. So I put the 540 back on and went to the launch. As soon as I started the boat it had a noticeable shudder at high idle and didn't want to idle below 900-1,000 rpm. Played with the mix screws, checked visually for vacuum leaks like a hose off etc. (didn't have my gauge with me) and gave up after about 10 minutes. Since the engine was warm and I was due for my fall oil change, i drained and filled the oil - noticing a slight gas smell in oil that was only 3 months and 15 hours old. I did a bunch of reading last night and decided I needed to check my timing, choke operation, and look at the plugs. Checked a few plugs before starting it and there was a lot of variation between them but none looked terribly black. Definitely signs of rich condition on some, but others looked about perfect. Did a quick start and let it stall, but visually the choke seemed to be operating correctly - slowly opened all the way up after I had started it (its about 55* out today). Brought the boat home and fired it up on the trailer and it was running really rough. Had to crank the idle up to 900+ rpm to keep it running and it was definitely shaking. I could get it to clean up with throttle but it never sounded quite 'right'. Checked the timing and found it to be about 12* BTDC. Noticed (by accidental slip) that if I advanced to 16-20* it idled much smoother, but didn't keep it there for more than a few seconds. Put it back to 11/12* and tightened the distributor back down. Shut the boat off and pulled each plug, one at a time, to find the following. #1 - Black and sooty (much worse than before the 5-10 minutes of idling on the trailer #2 - Brown, definitely rich but not nasty #3 - Tan, slightly rich #4 - Similar to #2, but actually had wet gas on it #5 - Black, nasty #6 - Black, nasty #7 - Tan, slightly rich but clean #8 - Brown, rich, but not black I'm at a loss. Clearly seams to be getting too much fuel, but big variation between cylinders. Was a pretty quick deterioration with no physical changes to the motor. I have an almost brand new carb on there with clean fuel and a new fuel filter since day 1 (only 15-20 hours of run time on any of it). And about the timing - should it even run at ~20* BTDC?? Weird. Only theories I can come up with from reading are: 1) Ruptured power valve from one light backfire - Seems very unlikely, and does the new QF600 even have these? 2) Gunk in the carb - doesn't seem to fit the symptoms well, and it is a brand new carb with good fuel from day one, a brand new fuel filter from day 1, etc etc. Any thoughts/recommendations/theories? Help! |
Replies:
Posted By: Off Trail
Date Posted: September-27-2019 at 7:36pm
| Maybe worth mentioning - float levels in the QF600 look normal, right where I set them in August. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-27-2019 at 7:59pm
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Any fuel spilling over from the primaries or secondaries if you look down with the flame arrestor off? That would go along with theory #2. Your description of not cleaning up till higher RPM's sounds like fuel spilling over Jonny Quick Fuel had trouble with his when metal shavings (probably an extra bonus from the factory) messed up his carburetor and it needed some cleaning. I'd pull the bowls preferably to look at things and unscrew the needle and seat assemblies, blow everything out and try it out again. Since you rejetted for low elevation, I'd check that your jets are in tight and everything looks as it should The Quick Fuel has a power valve but it shouldn't have been affected by the backfire. And.........borrow a vacuum gauge if yours isn't readily available since it could also be a vacuum leak based on those symptoms. Maybe the base gasket between the carburetor and manifold and spacer if you have a spacer which I think you do. |
Posted By: Off Trail
Date Posted: September-27-2019 at 8:07pm
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Thanks Keno. I did have the SA removed the whole time I was checking the timing and looked in there. Did not see any fuel flowing anywhere above the butterfly. I didn't advance the throttle enough to see past the butterfly while it was running, is that something I should do before I tear it apart? Looks like I get to take apart a brand new carb in the morning.... |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-27-2019 at 8:21pm
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When you take the carburetor off, look at the gaskets first before digging into the carburetor since you're not seeing any spillover. Do you have the flat plate about 1/8 inch thick between the Performer intake and the carburetor. Performers and Holleys or Quick Fuels don't mate up real well without one of those plates. The plate comes with 2 wide gaskets that give good mating with the manifold and with the carburetor. Edit I found an old post where you mentioned having the plate and gaskets, but it's easy to check them when you take the carburetor off. 
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Posted By: MourningWood
Date Posted: September-27-2019 at 10:02pm
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I'm going with vacuum leak. Strong correlation with described symptoms. ------------- 1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun" 'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!" |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: September-27-2019 at 10:25pm
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Are the jets in it now what it came with? ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-27-2019 at 11:13pm
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Since the problems all started with a backfire I am thinking it may be timing. Not idle timing but a stuck distributor advance mechanism. With the timing light hooked up and your engine at idle, coolant supply hooked up or sitting on the water rev your engine as you watch your timing. It should advance from your idle setting of 12* as the RPM goes up. It should advance smoothy from 12 at 600 RPM and max out at 32-34* at 4,000 RPM or so. It should advance the same each and every time you rev the engine. If it does not do this it is rusty or stuck. When advance sticks your engine will run lousy. ------------- |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 12:50am
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Some good suggestions but wouldn’t rule out a bad tank of fuel. How does it smell? 430 is most likely too much prop for that combo, I’d be surprised if the 540 wasn’t better for it. How did you determine it was “over-revving”? |
Posted By: Off Trail
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 12:54am
I know vacuum leaks can be hard to track down. I will check the carb gaskets but am pretty confident those are good - brand new set, installed in the right order, torqued properly etc. Any other places to look - knowing that it developed pretty suddenly and worsened quickly? |
MourningWood wrote:Posted By: Off Trail
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 12:55am
Yes, and as I said, ran great for 10+ hours as it is set up right now before the problems developed. |
Posted By: Off Trail
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 12:59am
Sounds pretty easy, so I'll check this out. But shouldn't it idle properly - especially since I have verified correct advance at idle? It is definitely not idling properly any more. Not questioning the recommendation, I'm just starting to understand timing and most if it is still over my head. |
Posted By: Off Trail
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 1:19am
On the first point - the fuel is a collection of several fill-ups. The first 14 gallons were in it from the prior visit when it was running well. I just topped it off with 6 gallons this trip. I wouldn't think 6 gallons of questionable fuel would be enough throw off the whole tank. And it was from a big, busy BP station that sells non-e premium so I have some confidence in their fuel. So, will do the smell test tomorrow, but not real likely. With the 540 the boat shot out of the hole and went straight to 5,300 RPM (assuming my jittery gauge is accurate). The boat was only running about 46.5-47 on the gps. Before the boat started running poorly yesterday, i did get a speed run in with the 430. Still came out of the hole great and run up to 48.5-49 mph, with 2 people and a full tank of fuel. Haven't tried pulling a skier but the 430 seems like the right prop otherwise. I know this doesn't make a ton of sense, and based on others results with the 540 - if I'm spinning the 430 at proper revs I should be running in the low 50's mph easily. And the 540 should have been pushing me 49-50 with revs over 5k. Right? |
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 1:23am
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Could be a distributor that has a mucked-up advance mechanism. On the QF M-600 were is the fuel level in the float bowl sight glass? On my M-600 I had the float level set at the lower 1/4 of the sight glass with good results at altitude. (4,400 to 6,000 feet of elevation) Did you use a carb sealing plate on top of the Edelbrock manifold? https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/15442/10002/-1" rel="nofollow - LINK to Carb Sealing Plate Johnny QuickFuel ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: Off Trail
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 3:13am
The front bowl is at about 1/4-1/3rd, the rear is about 1/2-2/3. I did use the adaptor plate with gaskets. Is that what you mean? I have manifold-gasket-plate-gasket-factory riser-gasket-carb. |
Posted By: MourningWood
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 3:27am
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I know vacuum leaks can be hard to track down. I will check the carb gaskets but am pretty confident those are good - brand new set, installed in the right order, torqued properly etc. Any other places to look - knowing that it developed pretty suddenly and worsened quickly? [/QUOTE] You mentioned installing an aluminum Performer manifold on the iron heads? If that is right, you would have needed to retorque the intake by now. Another place to check is the front and rear intake end gaskets, or sealant bead. ------------- 1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun" 'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!" |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 4:28am
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A rusted and sticking distributor can present in many ways. I think the distributor allows about 22 degrees of advance, + or - 2 degrees, I did not look up the exact number. It can stick at any position. Take your base timing you set at 11 or 12*. Add the centrifical advance number of 22* and your total timing is at 33-34*. It can stick anywhere from idle to full advance. A sticky one can give you advance sometimes and not others or stick inbetween somewhere. Symtoms will vary depending on where it is stuck or sticking. One of my distributors stuck once, a buddy's distributor stuck once and we have seen it happen to others on this forum. The boat is a 1979, the two I know of were a 1987 and a 1989. The advance springs can also rust out and break causing similar issues. It is a 3 minute test to rule it out. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 8:02am
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All this distributor talk and nobody knows for sure what you have for a distributor The picture below is your distributor from an earlier thread. before the engine work It shows a Prestolite distributor with a clip down cap and that one wire coming out of the housing going to the coil just screams that it has points in it. I don't see anything saying that you did anything to the distributor in any of your posts So unless you changed the distributor or the internals, when's the last time the points got checked? Plenty of times an ignition problem looks like a fuel problem (and the other way around too) So.............you have choices like what to go after first You say there's no overflow into the throats, so I think the carburetor cleaning moves down the list and the first thing should be the gaskets between the carburetor and spacer plate(s) that you have and the manifold since it's pretty easy. Then a look at the ignition system including the stuff under the cap and also the coil It could be as easy as a point cleaning/adjustment or a coil that's "not too healthy" Then if you've had no luck, do the carburetor cleaning You know what you've done and not done, so you might decide to change the order based on things like your confidence level that the gaskets are all good and sealing properly or maybe the ignition system has gotten no real attention at all. Who knows, maybe you slapped a new distributor in there and I missed that part
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 8:07am
These gaskets or sealant beads leaking won't cause a vacuum issue, but they will let oil leak out all over the place and make a mess. |
Posted By: Off Trail
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 11:54am
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Keno and MrMcD - I do still have that original distributor from the photo above. And Keno - you are correct, I didn't touch the thing (didn't even open it up) until yesterday when I was trouble-shooting. It definitely didn't look great inside - some rust/corrosion laying in the bottom, and some corrosion on the points. The metal was, however, clean where contact was made. I sprayed a little wd40, brushed things off and closed it back up. Coil looks original as well. I'm wondering if the dry air in the mountains allowed them to keep working, but the humidity in the midwest the last 2 months accelerated the corrosion enough to start affecting things. Never worked with a points system, so this is going to take some figuring out. I'm thinking I should replace both of these, as they are the only real critical parts that I did not replace with the rebuild. Just not sure how quickly I can get ahold of replacements. Will also torque down the manifold - I was thinking that was single-torque like the head studs. Going to open up the bowls on the carb just for fun. Seems like a jet loose or falling out is a real possibility. That has happened to me on other small engines and worth a look. Heading out to start poking around. |
Posted By: Off Trail
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 12:50pm
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Vacuum looks to be just fine based on the gauge. It is a bit hard to get a good reading with the engine loping but it looks to be about 12-13 as close to idle as I can get it to run. On throttle it runs up. I advanced the timing a bit. Can't get it to idle at 600 rpm so I'm setting it at about 12-13 at 750. The timing does seem to be jumping around. And on rev-up it only seems to go up to about 25*. It does ramp up in a pretty linear fashion though. Maybe MrMcD's theory is correct, or at least that is part of the issue. Definitely seems dizzy related. Okay, now I'm being lazy and not researching - can I just pull that bolt that I loosened to turn the dizzy, pull the diz straight out, put a replacement dizzy in and clock it similar to this one, and then dial the timing with the light? Or is there more to the process? |
Posted By: MourningWood
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 12:51pm
That's right, of course... No wonder my carter YH's leak...  ------------- 1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun" 'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!" |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 2:01pm
They were "born to leak" How's the rebuild of the carburetors from the guy you sent them to? While I'm asking questions, whatever happened to the 81 SN that went on a diet? |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 2:14pm
I guess mine and most other YH's were born on different days since no leakers!  Yes Brian, how's your YH project going. Anything back yet? ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 2:15pm
That distributor won't reach full advance till about 4000 rpm, not sure how high you ran it up while checking. Are both advance springs intact and the flyweights can move ? I'd run some fine sandpaper, a piece of a paper bag or even a piece of paper lightly through the points even if you think they look good. You might be surprised If you're gonna put another distributor in, remember that you have a reverse rotation engine and the gear is for reverse rotation. Depending what you're wanting to put in the gear might need swapping. People have broken gears and distributors trying to get the gear off. It's a pretty tight fit on the Prestolite. No fair using a hammer on the gear But yes......you can pull one out, clock the other one the same and be close on the timing |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 2:16pm
I knew you'd show up with a witty comment Pete
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 4:16pm
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If you have never pulled a distributor do a little reading first. You don't need to take the dist out to clean the weights or change the springs, it can be done in place. We fixed one parked on the beach for a buddy. Points and condensors are a wear item and do not last forever. If you forget your key turned to the on position while your engine is not running the points can frost over in a short amount of time. I am not a fan of using WD 40 inside a distributor. It will help free things up but is more of a cleaner than a lubricant and after the fact it attracts dirt and is detramental. If you use it to free things up clean it after your done. Maybe laquer thinner or something to remove residue. As Ken said clean the parts with emery cloth or fine sand paper so the advance weights operate smoothly. Follow the advice to check the advance springs, they control your mechanical advance. They are under the plate your points and condensor mount to. One buddy bought a brand new Malibu Sunsetter, it had a standard distributor with points, he kept it outside, his cover was not the best and the boat got soaked inside. The following year he could not make it run right. The moisture had rusted his advance plate and wieghts. It happens, not a bid deal to fix if that is what you face. ------------- |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 4:24pm
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Ken posted this information in another thread. Off Trail it sounds like this engine will be in need of the same parts. Might save you time looking them up. Here are some Sierra numbers for ignition parts for your 88 which should be the screw down cap distributor. These numbers work for getting parts from NAPA with a NAPA label on them. Points 18-5303 Condenser 18-5347 Rotor 18-5403 Cap 18-5352 The older clip down cap uses the same points and condenser but the cap and rotor are different. Here are part numbers for the cap and rotor for the clip down cap Cap 18-5369 . Rotor 18-5407 They'll also sell you a coil for either distributor, same coil for both and the part number is 18-5435 but it's a little (Ok a lot) pricier than the coil mentioned earlier in this thread. It's the package that says "marine" that magically jacks up the price. You could also get parts or a kit from SkiDim, NautiqueParts or a variety of other marine outfits ------------- |
Posted By: Off Trail
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 7:59pm
| Thanks all. Headed out to sand/wipe the points, pull the plate to see what's under the plate, and give it one last shot. |
Posted By: Off Trail
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 8:11pm
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Pulled the plate and one spring looks worn out (stretched out) but the other one is tight and the 'cams' are closing when stationary. Very possible that once it starts spinning only one spring is not enough to keep it tight. The distributor is generally in rough shape and corroded, so I think I'll call skidim on Monday and get the distributor, coil and condensor in before I pack the boat away in a week. Hard to put a boat away not working right..... |
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 8:33pm
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If you are looking to buy a new distributor, you may want to consider H.E.I. style unit and forget all about points and condenser problems. Davis Unified Ignition (www.performancedistribitors.com) make a great unit. No external coil needed. The part number for a revers-rotation unit is M35820RRRD (and, yes, it's RED). https://www.summitracing.com/parts/dui-m35820-rr-rd/overview/" rel="nofollow - LINK to distributor Or https://www.jegs.com/i/DUI/314/M35820RRRD/10002/-1" rel="nofollow - LINK 2 JQ ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: Off Trail
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 8:41pm
Thanks JQ - After trying to clean up the points and not getting results - I was going to ask. Does it make more sense to replace all of these parts or convert to E.I. I appreciate your recommendation and part#s. Anyone else going to steer me either way? I know there is an encyclopedia of threads about this. I also know I could spend a bunch of time reviving the parts I have. But since I replaced pretty much everything else on the motor, I think I should go new. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 8:46pm
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JDQF has spoken You absolutely must get the red one If the stretched out spring is the heavier gauge one, and has oval shaped ends, that's how it was made. The light one affects the advance curve all by itself up to about 3500 rpm or so and then the big one comes into play. Without seeing what you have it's hard to say if things are in decent shape but they didn't just suddenly get all screwed up on you to give the problem you have. I'd say like you said go new since everything else is new and make Jonny happy. |
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 8:54pm
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I really like the HEI style dizzys. No external coil or resistor needed. The coil is integrated into the HEI. The Davis Unified Ignition dizzy is a 2 wire hook-up. Very simple. Tach out goes to the gray wire. 12V feed into the dizzy from a dedicated key-switched 12V source. I used a 12 gauge with an in-line fuse. Maybe a bit over-kill, but that's how I roll. The high energy coil lets you open up your plug gap to .055. You won't be disappointed. There are cheaper options out there however... JQ / JDUI / JQF (thanks KENO!) ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 9:00pm
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You forgot JDQF, I like that one the best especially in red
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 10:31pm
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Ouch, $425 for a distributor? I like the HEI option and DUI is known for a quality product but for $425 I am not so sure I would not fix the one you have. You can take your distributor home with you when you put the boat away for winter. Find a local shop to rebuild it or rebuild it yourself in the off season. Probably cost less than $100 for a shop to do it or less than $20 if you do it and be back in business. It did last since 1979 so with rebuild it will probably outlast you. If you switch to high energy ignition you will want high engergy plug wires to match and high engergy ignition likes double platinum or Iridium plugs. Standard copper plugs burn up much faster in a high engergy system. ------------- |
Posted By: Faceplant
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 10:37pm
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Just curious because clueless. When installing a HEI, do you still have to time it afterwards ? ------------- Feels like I am hanging 10 but in reality - probably hanging 6. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 10:40pm
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Yes, any distributor installation or change has to be timed. It is not that hard but you do need to follow exact installation procedure. ------------- |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 10:52pm
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How about this Mark,he would just have to reuse the RR gear and it would be brand new https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-OEM-351-Marine-Long-LH-Rotation-Distributor-7024-Prestolite-F1JL-12100-CA/233206042871?epid=1428711521&hash=item364c29d0f7:g:ahgAAOSwvC1cviFx" rel="nofollow - Link ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 11:32pm
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I don't know, it mentions different shaft lengths. He would have to measure against his current one. $40 is cheap for a new distributor if it really is an original Marine distributor. Unlike cars boats don't run that many hours total use so the original distributor is probably easily fixed. Clean it up, make sure the weights and springs work properly and smooth install new points and condenser and he is running again. If changing points and condensor is an challenge he might be a good candidate for the DUI HEI system. ------------- |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-28-2019 at 11:48pm
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Something else to rule out if the timing really is jumping around. Didnt these early Ford 351W come factory with a Nylon Timing Sprocket on the camshaft? I know the 460 engines did and I suspect the 351W did also. The Nylon Sprockets eventually just fracture and leave you stranded with an engine that will not run right. The manufacturers used these for about 10 years and the reason was less cost but also they ran quieter than the steel sprockets. They went out of favor quickly as owners were fed up with expensive timing repair bills just to change out a failed sprocket. The Marine Engines may have speced out a Steel Sprocket for the Camshaft you will need to verify. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-29-2019 at 7:01am
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The extra shaft length doesn't matter with a stock or stock shaped oil pump intermediate shaft. It's an extra 1/2 inch below the gear and it makes the distributor a fair amount easier to install. If Gary hits the parts collection he has squandered away and pulls out a gt40 distributor he'll find the same extra shaft length on it The distributor in Gary's link really is a marine Prestolite, it comes complete with a really really conservative timing curve that'll give around 18 degrees advance to go along with whatever you set the initial advance at, Using 10 initial you'll get about 28 total. Not great I bought one a couple of years ago because,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well I'm a sicko like Gary who likes to have spare parts hanging around and it was cheap It also needs a screwdown cap and rotor. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-29-2019 at 7:42am
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Ford used the nylon coated teeth on the upper gear well into the 80's on their marine 351W's I'd guess that his great running engine didn't just suddenly lose the coating on a bunch of teeth while sitting for 2 months and that the issue is elsewhere without a better description of the timing fluctuations |
Posted By: Off Trail
Date Posted: September-29-2019 at 12:18pm
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The only thing I can think that could have caused the sudden decline in the dizzy and/or coil (if thats the problem) is the change in humidity. Being in Colorado with no humidity the last 10 years or so may have kept the points etc. from deteriorating. Once it got back here and sat for a couple months, that was enough for the latent corrosion to take off. Only way I can make sense of it.... I too like shiny red stuff....so JQ has me sold. Hard to drop the coin, but it looks like the 'easiest' and maybe 'most reliable' solution? Ordered the HEI distributer and some Tayler H.I. wires from Summit. The Davis wires are $100, Taylor were $35....hope there isn't a huge quality difference. If the Dizzy shows up by next weekend I should be able to get it in the boat and tested before storage. Thanks all - will respond with results. |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: September-29-2019 at 4:01pm
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I installed an HEI in my 1987 Malibu the first year we owned it. It worked perfect for the next 20+ years, only 750 hours use. They are a reliable and simple system and offer much better cold start up. You just have to jump that price tag to enjoy it. I still think one hours work would have had your old distributor working so you could evaluate the rest of the engine. ------------- |
Posted By: MourningWood
Date Posted: October-01-2019 at 10:52pm
I posted the carb results on the YH thread of yore. Results: no runs, drips, or errors. (thus far....it hasn't left the driveway yet). The '81 was down to just under 1900 lbs, but in the end it felt too cramped, being roughly no larger than the Dunphy X55 (which lacks cockpit room). I found/bought an '82 (2001) and sold the '81 for a very good price, but not until I did a complete powertrain swap. I've had 3 2001's before, but this one just flat rips. It is very solid and is cleaning up well. This boat was presented to Cyndi Benzel for winning 1982 Slalom Championship. Since it has her name on the sides and is in such great condition, I will not 'rub' on the bottom as I have always wanted to do on a 2001. There are plenty around however.... ------------- 1964 Dunphy X-55 "One 'N Dun" 'I measured twice, cut three times, and it's still too short!" |
Posted By: Faceplant
Date Posted: October-05-2019 at 10:53pm
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In the above link that Gary S posted about e bay distributor - wonder why the standard rotation would be $30 more than the LH rotation ? Is the RR gear hard to change ? Do you need a press or any special tools ? ------------- Feels like I am hanging 10 but in reality - probably hanging 6. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-06-2019 at 9:35am
You may be a little confused on what standard rotation is but I'm not sure LH rotation (when looking from the rear),is normal rotation or standard rotation. Reverse rotation is RH rotation when looking from the rear. As far as ski boats go, mostly a CC thing to be different and confuse people A Prestolite gear is on pretty tight from the factory and a press or puller works best to get it off. No fair banging on the shaft or gear with a hammer unless you want to break or deform things getting the gear off. |
Posted By: Faceplant
Date Posted: October-06-2019 at 11:18am
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I see now. There were two e bay ads for distributors.(the one that Gary S posted above with the long shaft that said LH ) and another one that said standard rotation.. Now I see that the gears are the same direction. So will the distributor that Gary S posted above with the long shaft work on my 1988 351 W as long as I reverse the gear ? ------------- Feels like I am hanging 10 but in reality - probably hanging 6. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: October-06-2019 at 12:06pm
Yes If you put your old gear on you'll be all set. |
Posted By: Off Trail
Date Posted: May-19-2020 at 1:42am
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Guys - Well...I...finally got the HEI (DUI) distributor installed with a ton of help - over the phone - from jonnyquest. Thanks again for the recommendation and help JQ! Some hiccups and challenges but all in all took me about 3 hours to get in and wired. The motor is running and idling very well. Holds a 6-700rpm idle, revs fast, starts clean. But thats all on the trailer. I'm thrilled to have it running again, and that the ignition was in fact the issue. But, there are still a few oddities that I want to shake out: -The motor runs better when I create a 'vacuum leak' - If I pull the rubber cap off of the port under the primary bowl on my QuickFuel M600, the revs increase noticeably. Forgot to look at the tach, but I'd say it is going up from the 700RPM I'm idling at, to 1,000rpm and smooths out. -When I get the vacuum gauge hooked up to the port the RPMs drop back down to 700 and I get a reading of 15-16 of vacuum. I have played a bit with the idle screws and this is peak - 15 to 16. My recollection from last year when I got it running after the rebuild was that 12-13 was my max vacuum I could get, even when I had it running great. -Regardless of the carb setting I do NOT get a steady reading. It is always bouncing between 15 and 16. And the engine and boat (sitting on the trailer) have a pretty good shake - kind of like it has a performance cam. If you get out and listen to the exhaust, it is steady with no lope etc., but sitting in the boat with the engine cover up it feels like a lope or stutter. -Timing is still a bit of a mystery. When I set the new electronic Dizzy I shot for 10-15* of advance. When I fired it up with the timing light it read over 30* BTC, but ran fine. I spun the dizzy back to 12* and that actually dropped the RPMs and it seemed to run a little rougher (see above). Does that make sense? Am I being OCD? The engine seems to be running well - I'll know more tomorrow when I get it in the lake. But the above characteristics just don't seem 'right to me. Thoughts?? |
Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: May-19-2020 at 4:57am
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In the water your engine will be loaded by torque on the prop when you drop in gear. You need a strong idle to do that without stalling. The factory says 10* at idle is a good number so start with that. Increasing your timing or introducing a vacuum leak will increase your idle on the trailer but most likely cause stalling on the lake. If you do not like your idle speed with the timing set at 10* adjust your idle not your timing. This is best fine tuned on the water. If your idle is too low you will stall putting it in gear. If you are too fast it will slam into gear each time. For performance you will also want to check and see how much advance your new distributor is giving you and at what RPM it stops advancing. Then you can fine tune. Mark ------------- |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-19-2020 at 8:05am
  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Off Trail
Date Posted: May-19-2020 at 9:39am
And I managed to do it all in the driveway without getting rained (or snowed) on! Unheard of for Northern Wisconsin in mid-may. |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-19-2020 at 12:18pm
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All normal. Yes too much initial advance will increase rpms. but thats inconsequential. One doesn;t don't ski at idle. So is adding air at idle. Ripems will go up. Doesn't mean its right. It will fall on its face in gear and stumble off-idle Yes, i also suspect some overthinking. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: zwoobah
Date Posted: May-19-2020 at 3:18pm
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If you've got a shake at idle you may have a misfire. Could be a fouled spark plug from your previous ignition issues, or you may have put a wire back into the wrong place on the new distributor. If it still shakes/skips after you verify firing order and correct wire installation, unplug your plug wires one at a time. If you unplug one and notice zero difference, that plug is fouled. Pull the plug - if it's wet, it is fouled and will not fire. ------------- 1968 Mustang 16 - 351W powered |
Posted By: Off Trail
Date Posted: May-21-2020 at 1:38am
I'm not sure the stutter is that bad, and it runs 49.5mph at 5200-5300RPM (going to try my 'taller prop') so I can't imagine it is running on 7 cylinders. But, simple test and good recommendation, so I'll pull wires and check. By the way - The plug wires that Summit Racing recommended with this dizzy DO NOT fit well. I have two running over a valve cover, through exhaust manifold, just to make connection. Going to have to replace those. If pulling wires doesn't change anything, i will do some carb tuning and call it a day. This new ignition is starting first crank, no hiccup on idle to hard full throttle. Happy I spent the money on the DUI.....though I'm sure someone will say I could have gotten the same result with 2 hours of work on the old dizzy. Ill post a picture at some point - it was rough. Appreciate all the help and advice and hope I don't need to be on here for help for a while! |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-21-2020 at 9:27am
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Magstar wires are good and know marine lengths. Just put some on last night, after noticing my 'new' wires had gotten 21 years old. ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: May-21-2020 at 10:43am
Wires just don't go bad specially with the hours you guys put on your boats. My Avalanche had over 2500 hours before the plugs and wires were replaced on it's 100k service. I have a 73 year old Ford tractor with it's original wires on it, several 50 year old Honda motorcycles with their originals on. If you guys are replacing your old oem red GT40 wires send them my way I'll pay shipping  ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: May-21-2020 at 11:34am
Prop = I would want a prop where W-O-T tops out at 5,000 RPMs. Spark Plug Wire Length = I like to make my own plug wires for this very reason. JQ ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: GottaSki
Date Posted: May-24-2020 at 1:13pm
well, all depends what one considers bad. When my hand gets whacked by the msd and blaster 3 being near the cap figured new cap and wires are in order before the arc does whatever it wants further and causes a sploshun ------------- "There is nothing, absolutely nothing, half so much worthwhile as messing around with boats...simply messing." River Rat to Mole |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: May-24-2020 at 4:34pm
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Your saying an errant spark will cause an explosion just in normal air? You'd think there would need to be a fuel source as well. I'd better be careful smoking in my row boat then ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: May-24-2020 at 5:09pm
Gary, Don't worry, here's Tom filling his gas at the pump:  ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |