Still Happy with your Protec Conversion?
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48956
Printed Date: November-23-2024 at 12:18pm
Topic: Still Happy with your Protec Conversion?
Posted By: Nauti Gator
Subject: Still Happy with your Protec Conversion?
Date Posted: June-27-2020 at 7:11pm
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Starting to get some ignition stumbles and rougher idle on my carbed 280hp ‘93 SNOB. I guess 27 years Is pretty good on the old system. Is this currently the best set up to eliminate the Protec? Any insights / opinions? Thanks 
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Replies:
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: June-27-2020 at 8:58pm
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Several members have removed the ProTec system and have installed the DUI high-energy-ignition (HEI) distributor by www.PerformanceDistributors.com. You don't really need all that stuff in the "kit". The link below is a nice write-up by JPASS on his DUI install and ProTec removal. http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=34338&title=protec-ignition-swap" rel="nofollow - LINK JQ ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: Nauti Gator
Date Posted: June-28-2020 at 12:33pm
| Thanks for that update - sounds like the HEI is definitely the way to go now.. Going to call Performance Distributors tomorrow - I noticed they have 2 different timing curves based upon the rpm of the motor (7,000 and 10,000 RPM) obviously I would want the 7,000. I would like to know how the timing advance curve on that distributor compares to what I have today?. I have The H.O. carbed 285hp 4,400 max RPM motor. According to manual I have a total timing advance of 26 degrees at 3600 RPM. I want to see how the advance curve for the HEI Compares to my current Protec. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-28-2020 at 2:12pm
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When swapping to the DUI setup, I wouldn't worry about the number in the manual for the Protec system. Most everybody that does the DUI swap sets the timing at 10 degrees BTDC and the DUI people will tell you that your distributor will have 24 degrees of advance at 3000 rpm. That 24 added to the 10 degrees initial will give you 34 total at 3000 rpm and the engine will run good. I don't remember anybody complaining about the DUI curve or the advance of 24 degrees that it comes with. If you're worried you could set the initial at 6 or 8 degrees instead of 10 degrees and have 30 or 32 degrees total as a starting point. 
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Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: June-28-2020 at 2:19pm
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+1 to what KENO said. The DUI advance curve is very nice. Your engine will like it. My initial idle advance was 8 degrees BTDC originally...but then I changed to 10 degrees BTDC. Engine performance was outstanding. The DUI was every bit as good (if not better) as the ProTec system -- at least in my experience. And...correct, that you need the 7,000 RPM version. Be sure to get the red model as you will gain several MPH in top speed as red is always faster... JQ ------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow Aqua skiing, ergo sum |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-28-2020 at 2:30pm
ALWAYS
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Jonny Quest wrote:Posted By: Nauti Gator
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 12:15am
| You guys are awesome - thanks for your comments! |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 10:29am
I have never actually measured a DUI to have a full 24deg even when that’s what it specifies on the card. Usually closer to 20. In those cases, 12-14 initial on the Fords seems very happy. I definitely wouldn’t be setting it any lower than 10, in any case. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 3:16pm
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Let's see, you're checking the advance on a running engine, with belts and pulleys somewhat obstructing your view of the timing marks, while you're trying to keep your head, hands and the timing light from getting chewed up and trying to get a real accurate reading with the engine humming along at 3000 rpm making a bunch of noise. Meanwhile someone at Performance Distributors is sitting in a chair comfortably checking the advance on a Distributor machine. Who's gonna get a better reading? I'd call the in the boat reading a good estimation or check of what they give for the advance
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Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 3:30pm
| I think you may be questioning my ability to use measurement equipment properly but I assure you I am competent... 4deg is not what I would consider margin of error. This is not based on a single reading or single distributor, but many. Haven’t bought or measured a DUI that actually had the full 24- and that’s ok by me. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 3:33pm
Whatever
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 3:34pm
That's your opinion. Definition: "a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge." ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 3:40pm
| Oh brother |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 3:45pm
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Shoulda known the opinionated one (Pete) would jump in with something profound. I've checked timing in the boat plenty of times, but it sure is easier to check a distributor setup on a machine |
Posted By: TRBenj
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 4:12pm
| Well sure. I am not doubting their ability to measure, more likely they are not measuring all (or likely many?). The only one that came to me with a spec card was the first one I bought from them 15 years ago. All of the others “typically have 24deg” so I have been told but no spec to prove it was measured and timing checks on the engine have indicated 20-22 on average on the others I’ve bought or checked. |
Posted By: scootdogydog
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 7:37pm
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+2. The two DUIs of mine are also around 20° of total advanace, not 24 ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=7183" rel="nofollow - 1999 Python 1980 Ski Tique 1968 Mustang WIP |
Posted By: Nauti Gator
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 7:49pm
I called Performance today - they said all their 351W 0-7k marine distributors have the same advance curve ending at 24 degrees at 3000 RPM. He suggested to use an initial 10-12 degrees. Sounds like it should be a good set up. 
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 7:50pm
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Ken, I feel one of your hands on tests would be in order. ------------- /diaries/details.asp?ID=1622" rel="nofollow - 54 Atom /diaries/details.asp?ID=2179" rel="nofollow - 77 Tique 64 X55 Dunphy Keep it original, Pete < |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 8:10pm
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🍿, Get your popcorn, I got it hot and fresh.... ------------- Please support The Cystic Fibrosis Foundation 1976 Ski Nautique 351 Escort 1993 Ski Nautique purple and black 351 HO PCM |
Posted By: 1TAZZ
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 8:52pm
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Funny thing I seen this post today, I did the DUI swap om my 92 EXCEL last year and have lost two ignition modules. Lost both of within 20 hours run time . Backed my boat off trailer Sat and it died right on the ramp no spark. So I call them today and their TEC guy t told me that with our boats we must run a Neg wire from our battery to the distributor housing. I have read all the links posted and have not seen anyone doing this . I will do this to my boat this weekend I hope it works getting tired of buying these DUI modules. I will never take my boat out without a extra module again. ------------- Lake Wylie NC |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 9:13pm
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Years ago my dad got stuck multiple times in his Prestolite point equipped boat. Condensers were always burning up. Being a center console inboard it was tough to work on the engine, Finally in disgust he pulled the distributor. Due to saltwater use the distributor had corroded where it contacted the block. He cleaned that and added a ground wire. I have since added grounds to my two as well. ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Orlando76
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 9:24pm
------------- Please support The Cystic Fibrosis Foundation 1976 Ski Nautique 351 Escort 1993 Ski Nautique purple and black 351 HO PCM |
Posted By: 1TAZZ
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 9:31pm
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Thanks Gary I feel better about this advice now. My wife has got to the point where she wont even go out in this boat. The old PRO-TEC let us down a few times and now this . ------------- Lake Wylie NC |
Posted By: RealDeez
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 9:33pm
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My 93 has had the protec replaced since before I got it. I have the mechanical distributor... not even sure what brand. It has given me no problems. Runs a little rough before it's warm but takes like 3 minutes to warm up then runs perfectly. 1400+ hours on the motor so I'm guessing the pro tec was replaced years ago. I may go DUI at some point if the coil/ points give me trouble but right now it doesn't worry me a bit. ------------- Lake James, IN 93 Sport Nautique |
Posted By: 1TAZZ
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 9:49pm
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My 1990 had points and it never broke down me . If yours is not giving you any trouble I would just tune it up and call it good . ------------- Lake Wylie NC |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 10:13pm
If you're dead set on running a ground wire to the battery, you should probably read the thread in the link and the link that's in that thread about "ground loops". I'd ground it to the block and not directly to the battery, but then again if your ground from the body to the block by way of the holddown bolt is clean you don't need a wire. You'd think all these manufacturers would have put a ground wire from the distributor to the block if it was really necessary. If you ground to the battery and have an issue with your big main ground wire then every bit of current wants to go through your new distributor ground back to the battery. So as an example, you turn the key to start the boat and all that starter current wants to go to the battery through the distributor housing and your new kinda tiny little ground wire. I think I smell smoke Grounds are funny things. http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48538&KW=ground&title=new-ground-to-bus" rel="nofollow - link |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 10:16pm
I don't think that's necessary, besides I misread your quote above and thought you said I should have one of my hands on my testes..............so I've been preoccupied for a while Besides, I'd have to steal one from a friends boat right now to test it "my way". Me and my "backyard distributor spinner" machine agree with the quote below
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 10:19pm
Since you don't know what ya' got, maybe a picture would be good and another picture with the cap off too
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Posted By: Nauti Gator
Date Posted: June-29-2020 at 11:39pm
Tazz you're not making me feel too good right now since I already have the distributor on the way. I've cleaned all the grounds to the block and battery and I can't imagine why the distributor hold down wouldn't work? Keno - very good point |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: June-30-2020 at 12:26am
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We had a saying- ground is ground the world around.... I ran my distributor ground to the block.,it cost nothing ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Nauti Gator
Date Posted: June-30-2020 at 12:49am
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With my old Protec set up I was using cheap copper Autolite 104 plugs @.040 or .045 gap (can't remember). I believe that was the closest cross reference to the original plug which has been superseded several times . Looks like I'll now switch to Autolite AP104 platinum plug with a .055 gap. Performance Distributors says "In most applications, we recommend using Autolite Platinum Spark Plugs. These plugs have worked very well with our Distributors and Firepower Ignition Kits. You should retain the same heat range your engine calls for but open the spark plug gaps to the recommended setting as set forth by the distributor or ignition kit instructions" Sound reasonable? |
Posted By: 1TAZZ
Date Posted: June-30-2020 at 9:30am
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So if grounding to the battery is not a good ideal , do any of you have any suggestions as to what is causing the module to fail . I have been using the good modules from DUI. The coil was checked and is good . My install was done following the J-PASS write up and the boat was running great . Man I thought had this problem behind me . Funny thing my boat must not like 4th of July , it broke down same week last year. My boat only has 394 hours the guy i bought it never used it much , i am thinking some of my troubles are because it was not used much. Looks like low hours may be worse than a boat that has been used with many hours on it. ------------- Lake Wylie NC |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-30-2020 at 9:53am
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You could do a ground from the distributor housing to the block, but you really shouldn't have to. Did you use thermal paste on the back of the replacement module when you installed it? If not, it's a good way to cook a module
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Posted By: 1TAZZ
Date Posted: June-30-2020 at 11:54am
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Yes I have been using the grease that comes with it. I keep asking myself could I have got two bad modules. Going to NAPA today and try one of their Modules, I was told that the Echelin brand work well . $43 bucks and I don't have to get it shipped . ------------- Lake Wylie NC |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: June-30-2020 at 12:55pm
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Sure that's the right one? It shows 103 when I look it up. Supposedly it's TP33 The Ford number is/was F1PZ-12A297-A ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: June-30-2020 at 2:09pm
Sure you're in the right thread Gary? He's looking for a GM HEI module for his DUI, not something for a gt40. I'd try the AC Delco D1906 which seems to have a great reputation for reliability or get the NAPA/ Echlin cross reference to that at NAPA like you're talking about. NAPA/Echlin TP45 You can get arguments about how much performance difference there will be between that and the DUI Dyna Mod module. Let your butt dyno and your paddling arm decide what's better for you |
Posted By: Nauti Gator
Date Posted: June-30-2020 at 2:13pm
In my manual it said AWSF22 as original - after researching like crazy it looked like most people were using the Autolite 764 plug - and Autolite now superseded the 764 to the 104. The 103 and 104 are the exact same spec plug dimensions except the 104 is slightly hotter. I guess I'll run it and take a look at the plug color after the DUI install. |
Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: June-30-2020 at 2:23pm
Yea Duh! I think it was the paste thing Not thinking at all this am.Just one of the joys of not having to be anywhere or do anything..... ------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport |
Posted By: Nauti Gator
Date Posted: July-02-2020 at 3:26pm
 Feels like Christmas! Going to do the install this afternoon.
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-02-2020 at 3:41pm
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Could you snap a picture of that distributor standing on it's head? or in other words, a picture of the bottom of the housing And while I'm at it, how about a good side shot of the gear and the shaft above it Thanks and Merry Christmas
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Posted By: desertskier
Date Posted: July-02-2020 at 5:30pm
Have you measured the input voltage at the distributor? I sent an email to Performance some time ago and asked what problems low input voltage would cause and they said just bad performance but who knows maybe it degrades the module. I think it's worth checking if you haven't already. ------------- 92 SN - Owned since 93 99 Pro Air 89 SN - Went to live on a lake in Texas 75 Donzi 16 - Sold in 93 |
Posted By: Nauti Gator
Date Posted: July-03-2020 at 10:43am
Sorry Keno - I didn't see your post until after I did the install. |
Posted By: Nauti Gator
Date Posted: July-03-2020 at 11:00am
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First comment about the new DUI is just wow! Its incredibly smooth. Set initial timing to 10 degrees and then saw a total of 31 degrees at 3000 RPM. It takes longer to clean up the old wiring harness than doing the install. Only glitch I had was first connecting the DUI 12v supply to the starter solenoid - the engine would start then shut off in about 2-3 seconds - finally figured that out - the 12v supply needed to be the other bolt on the relay which is the ignition - 12v while ignition is on. At this point If you are even considering an ignition change I wouldn't hesitate to get the DUI. The real test will be how she runs in the water the next 3 days. 
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Posted By: desertskier
Date Posted: July-03-2020 at 1:13pm
Ignition voltage at the starter solenoid?? It only has battery voltage and the starting circuit voltage. ------------- 92 SN - Owned since 93 99 Pro Air 89 SN - Went to live on a lake in Texas 75 Donzi 16 - Sold in 93 |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-03-2020 at 3:00pm
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Oh No..............it's the "I" terminal discussion back again The diagram below of a ProTec system will show where the "I" terminal voltage comes from when the key is in RUN t's physically impossible for the power to come from within the solenoid except when the key is in START. In RUN there's no power to the "I" terminal from within but if you look at wire number 42 with the fusible link in it, when the key is in RUN there's power from the 12.5 amp breaker and if you hook your ignition supply to that you have power. The real function of that wire is to provide maximum voltage during starting (in parallel with the supply from the key, but with no diode or anything in that wire it keeps the "I" terminal powered and is a convenient spot to grab 12 volt power from. In RUN the power comes from the key through the 8 pin connector (wire #28) which ties into wire #41 which supplies the 12.5 amp breaker which then supplies the coil packs through wire #26. So...........depending on how much of the Protec wiring you remove, you can have power coming to the "I" terminal externally with the key in RUN. This might be as clear as mud and the diagram makes you about half blind following some of those wires, but that's how to have power on the "I" terminal to supply the ignition system in RUN. . 
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-03-2020 at 3:04pm
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By the way, all you guys getting less than the advertised 24 degrees mechanical advance out of your DUI distributor should call and complain about their false advertising and see what they have to say You might think about timing light accuracy too depending on what you're using |
Posted By: desertskier
Date Posted: July-03-2020 at 4:40pm
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Exactly. Just don't disconnect the fusible link. And now you are connected to the unprotected side of the 13.5 breaker so it's basically doing nothing. The 20 amp ignition breaker is still protecting it so no big deal except you could fry the harness wiring instead of just popping the 13.5 breaker. edit: I guess the fusible link is still protecting it but that is just a weird way to connect it. ------------- 92 SN - Owned since 93 99 Pro Air 89 SN - Went to live on a lake in Texas 75 Donzi 16 - Sold in 93 |
Posted By: 1TAZZ
Date Posted: July-05-2020 at 8:18pm
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Update on DUI trouble so I installed the new module and boat would still not run right. So walked back to my shop and opened the hood of my wife's 1980 corvette and pulled ignition coil just to see if coil was bad. I installed The old GM coil and the boat started right up. It ran great all weekend. I will be calling DUI Monday looking for a replacement coil. I think it must have be the coil the whole time. She don"t know i parted out her car yet LOL. ------------- Lake Wylie NC |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-05-2020 at 8:29pm
Just put the bad coil in her car and let her figure out that it won't start Then you can "troubleshoot" and tell her it's a bad coil and be her hero. Then buy another AC Delco coil if they won't send you a freebie |
Posted By: 1TAZZ
Date Posted: July-05-2020 at 9:27pm
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That sounds like a plan. ------------- Lake Wylie NC |
Posted By: Nauti Gator
Date Posted: July-06-2020 at 12:10am
I should have said Relay and not Starter Solenoid. She ran great over the last 3 days. - It sounds like I should go back and definitely change a couple things after reading your and Keno's posts. I picked up the 12v to power the distributor from the Relay. It must have been the "S" terminal.  I verified no voltage when key is off. 12v when key is on. I guess I really should move my distributor 12v power source to the 12.5 breaker and not from the Relay directly. 
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Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: July-06-2020 at 3:57am
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I have used dial back timing lights for years to check total timing, initial plus mechanical advance. It is a very accurate method for checking. Professional shops use the dial back timing lights to verify exact timing. I think Tim shared valuable information for the users of DUI systems. I would double check any distributor I run, new or factory to verify total timing before I trusted it. The old Sun Distributor Machines are excellent tools and I wish I had one but even after using it to dial the distributor perfectly in to your desired advance curve someone still needs to install it and verify the timing before running it.. Exact timing is the best way to add power without damage. Guessing or timing by ear is a great way to burn a piston. If your timing light is not accurate, step up and get a better one. ------------- |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-06-2020 at 8:53am
Read your quote 3 times slowly and maybe you'll decide to change nothing It works and it has overcurrent protection now, but you could move the supply to the output of the 12.5 amp breaker ( it must be sitting there kinda lonely supplying nothing since it only fed the old coil packs and nothing else.) |
Posted By: desertskier
Date Posted: July-06-2020 at 11:08am
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The original wiring had the starting circuit separated from the ignition circuit by the fusible link. You have the distributor connected to the starting circuit. Your distributor is not protected from a short in the starting relay etc... Would probably never happen but I would move it back to the original configuration. ------------- 92 SN - Owned since 93 99 Pro Air 89 SN - Went to live on a lake in Texas 75 Donzi 16 - Sold in 93 |
Posted By: Nauti Gator
Date Posted: July-06-2020 at 1:17pm
Sounds like good advice  Thanks! |
Posted By: Nauti Gator
Date Posted: July-06-2020 at 1:38pm
I've been using a Craftsman induction timing light for prob the last 10 years - may not be the most accurate. Also, I just noticed in my old PCM Quick Reference Guide is says "Ignition Timing of all PRO-TEC and PTI Engines Must Be Set at 3600 RPM" Then in the notes section of the PCM manual it says "The timing at 4,000 RPM should never exceed 30 degrees BTDC, in engines equipped with ignition points, to ensure reliability and performance with 89 octane fuel" I tested the timing at 3000 RPM and got 30-31 degrees. I can recheck at 3600 and see if there is any more timing coming in. Granted I don't have points but now without any knock sensor in the system maybe a total 30-31 degrees is a good safe limit. |
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: July-06-2020 at 3:11pm
Nothing wrong with a good ol' Craftsman light. Some of the dial back lights can be a little sketchy, finicky or whatever word you want to use I wouldn't worry, "you got what you got" and it runs good |