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Overcharging the battery

Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49125
Printed Date: November-21-2024 at 7:58pm


Topic: Overcharging the battery
Posted By: NMiles77
Subject: Overcharging the battery
Date Posted: August-22-2020 at 8:09pm
Ok guys I am new to the forum. I have a 1976 Ski Natique. Resently the ammeter has been pegged to +40. There 17 volts across the battery when the engine is running. My thinking is the voltage regulator. The regulator on engine appears not to be original. I have since gotten the original design, however I need a wire diagram. I need to figure out how the original regulator is suppose to be wired. Does anyone have any thoughts?



Replies:
Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-22-2020 at 8:23pm

This wiring diagram shows the alternator and external voltage regulator wiring for a 351 Pleasurecraft engine from 1976.Some of the aftermarket regulators had different colors on the wires. Ignore the light on the brown wire, it wasn't used  Wink


Posted By: NMiles77
Date Posted: August-22-2020 at 8:49pm
I traced out the green field wire to the alternator. I see the large orange output wire From alternator to the solenoid. I don’t see the black wire from alternator to VR. The new regulator, has red, green, black and ground. Do you have a picture of the correct voltage    regulator on back of the engine? The new one came with a connector looks like plug an play. But the original connector is not on my boat.


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-23-2020 at 7:41am
I guess one question should be ......do you have a Pleasurecraft 351, or maybe a Commander or Escort 351 in the boat The info below and the previous diagram pertain to a Pleasurecraft (or Waukesha) engine


Here is a non artist's rendition of how the wires hook to the back of a Prestolite alternator on a 76 Pleasurecraft 351 and a picture of a voltage regulator. The 3 blade connector was standard on the engine, so yours has been "modified" over the years if that connector on the regulator has nothing to plug into in the wiring harness.

The single wire with the ring connector on the end is purple, maybe yours is red?

If you get it wired up right, your charging issue should be resolved.

Since you have an ammeter, your big Orange wire goes from the alternator up to the ammeter, to the ignition switch and then back to the solenoid. See the wiring diagram earlier in this thread

PS.................I hope the name on the side of the boat is spelled better than you spell it Wink


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-23-2020 at 7:10pm
Nathan 

I got your PM about the engine being an Escort conversion with a Motorcraft alternator so the diagram above isn't gonna be right.

I'm not sure I've ever seen an Escort wiring diagram

I sent a PM to somebody named Pete with an Escort so that he'll look at this thread and he can probably give you some info or pictures Wink


Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-23-2020 at 8:02pm
You may be too late in the season for that. After he spent the last week cleaning the bilge he put the boat away for the year,it is after all the end of August Wink




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95 Nautique Super Sport


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-23-2020 at 8:36pm
Is that the before or after picture Gary?

Nathan has one of those White Escorts.

Maybe along with Pete, Orlando76 could also give him some alternator/regulator info since he has an Escort too


Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-23-2020 at 8:50pm
I'll take a look at my regulator and report back. 

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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-24-2020 at 7:51am

I have the old Motorcraft D4FF-10316-AA And it's wired exactly like the older wiring diagram Ken posted above. I see there are electronic type replacements.

https://www.amazon.com/DB-Electrical-AFD6001-Regulator-1964-1987/dp/B0081S9AKY/ref=asc_df_B0081S9AKY/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=&hvpos=&hvnetw=o&hvrand=&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583520389058755&psc=1" rel="nofollow - https://www.amazon.com/DB-Electrical-AFD6001-Regulator-1964-1987/dp/B0081S9AKY/ref=asc_df_B0081S9AKY/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=&hvpos=&hvnetw=o&hvrand=&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583520389058755&psc=1

BTW, Gary, I'll have to wait to clean the bilge. Maybe this afternoon the temp will get up and thaw the frozen water in the bilge. Big smile



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64 X55 Dunphy

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<


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-24-2020 at 12:34pm
If your regulator looks like Pete's with I  A  S and F terminals on it, the picture below sholud explain the hookup to your Motorcraft alternator.

The Motorcraft alternator should have those same connections

The big wire on the right of the picture is the 10 gauge output going to the ammeter.

The I terminal is fed from the ignition switch

Since you put in a DUI distributor the power for the I terminal would come from the same wire that feeds the distributor 
 




Posted By: NMiles77
Date Posted: August-24-2020 at 3:00pm
Gary, Ken thank you for the info. That is the voltage regulator I have on my boat. I got a replacement put it in. I need to take the boat down to the water to test it. The only differences from the diagram on my boat is terminal I is not connected and S is not connected to alternator stator.


Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-24-2020 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by NMiles77 NMiles77 wrote:

Gary, Ken thank you for the info. That is the voltage regulator I have on my boat. I got a replacement put it in. I need to take the boat down to the water to test it. The only differences from the diagram on my boat is terminal I is not connected and S is not connected to alternator stator.

Is the replacement you put in the same as pictured? Confused Was you old regulator putting out the high volts and amps or is it the new one? 

Before you head down to the lake I suggest compleating the wiring otherwise the regulator isn't going to know how many volts it needs to send to the field. The field controls the aternator output. 


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<


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-24-2020 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:


I have the old Motorcraft D4FF-10316-AA And it's wired exactly like the older wiring diagram Ken posted above. I see there are electronic type replacements.

https://www.amazon.com/DB-Electrical-AFD6001-Regulator-1964-1987/dp/B0081S9AKY/ref=asc_df_B0081S9AKY/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=&hvpos=&hvnetw=o&hvrand=&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583520389058755&psc=1" rel="nofollow - https://www.amazon.com/DB-Electrical-AFD6001-Regulator-1964-1987/dp/B0081S9AKY/ref=asc_df_B0081S9AKY/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=&hvpos=&hvnetw=o&hvrand=&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583520389058755&psc=1

BTW, Gary, I'll have to wait to clean the bilge. Maybe this afternoon the temp will get up and thaw the frozen water in the bilge. Big smile


If only this picture showed the wires going into the I A S F connections and the wire colors, Nathan's life would probably be a lot easier

Another inch lower with the camera Pete Wink




Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-24-2020 at 4:49pm

How's this Ken? 



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<


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-24-2020 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:


How's this Ken? 

That's real goodWink

And ...........just like Nathan said he had no wire going to the I terminal on the regulator and neither do you.

4 terminals, 3 wires

A little mysterious about the I terminal not being used, but it obviously works

I imagine your alternator connections are like the diagram shows.

 



Posted By: NMiles77
Date Posted: August-24-2020 at 5:06pm
The old voltage regulator was putting out 17 volts a cross the battery at idol speed. The replacement Voltage regulator I bought is the new version of the pictured. There is no stator wire from alternator to the voltage regulator terminal S. When I look at the alternator there is +battery, - ground, and field wire. There is not stator connected wire. The S terminal on the voltage regulator had a wire I traced to the + input terminal of the electronic choke on the carb. So that wasn’t correct and made no sense.


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-24-2020 at 5:13pm
Nathan

Now you need to hope that Pete will look at the back of his alternator and see what wires are connected to what terminals. Maybe even another picture will appear Wink

There's a good chance that there's nothing hooked to the S terminal on the his alternator.

There's a lot of confusing info on Motorcraft regulators/alternators depending on the year(s) they were used.

And.........that S terminal going to the choke just might be right.(providing 12 volts to the choke coil)


Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-24-2020 at 7:32pm
Nathan,
Have you tried the new regualtor yet? You said you were heading down to the lake to see how it works.

I'll take a look at the backside of my alternator and get back. 


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<


Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-24-2020 at 8:11pm


Brown on the field and black on the ground.


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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-25-2020 at 10:44am
Originally posted by NMiles77 NMiles77 wrote:

The replacement Voltage regulator I bought is the new version of the pictured.
Nathan,
Does this new version have the same terminal designations as the old one I have pictured and Ken has described or does it just have wire pigtails? A piture of what you have sure would help. 

Again, have you tried the new one yet?  If so, what are the results? 


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<


Posted By: NMiles77
Date Posted: August-25-2020 at 2:25pm
Pete, the new version regulator has the exact same terminal lay out as my old. I will get some pictures, unfortunately the weather has not allowed a lake test yet. I will get back to this thread with pictures.


Posted By: burban65
Date Posted: August-25-2020 at 5:01pm
Although still interesting..........These threads are not as much fun to read when Ken and Pete are working together in such harmony........just sayingSmile
Yes, I did miss you guys (and this site) when it was down.............I actually had to start hanging with my wife (and talking to her) in the evening.........instead of being on CCF.  
I am glad things are getting back to "normal" 



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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-26-2020 at 6:59am
Originally posted by burban65 burban65 wrote:

Although still interesting..........These threads are not as much fun to read when Ken and Pete are working together in such harmony........just sayingSmile
Yes, I did miss you guys (and this site) when it was down.............I actually had to start hanging with my wife (and talking to her) in the evening.........instead of being on CCF.  
I am glad things are getting back to "normal" 


Burb                   Your wife is probably glad it's back too  Wink

That picture of Pete's alternator is pretty good. He even took it off the mounts to get a good shot I think he probably knew I'd harass him if he didn't get a good picture

Now we just have to see if the wire from the S terminal on the regulator goes to the choke on Pete's boat.


Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-26-2020 at 7:57am
In order to avoid further harassment, I felt it best to bow to Ken's demands. Here's the confirmation that the S terminal on the regulator does indeed go to the electric choke. Since the age has blended the colors of the wires and I didn't want to tear into the harness, I thought it best to Ohm it out. 




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<


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-26-2020 at 8:23am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

In order to avoid further harassment, I felt it best to bow to Ken's demands. Here's the confirmation that the S terminal on the regulator does indeed go to the electric choke. Since the age has blended the colors of the wires and I didn't want to tear into the harness, I thought it best to Ohm it out. 



Now that's teamwork Wink

What should we tackle next Pete?


Posted By: NMiles77
Date Posted: August-31-2020 at 6:27am
Guys final got the boat back on the water. I had installed a new voltage regulator. When the engine is running 1000 rpms or greater the ammeter is still near +40. I am wondering if it the alternator. You guys got any other suggestions?


Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-31-2020 at 6:43am
Originally posted by NMiles77 NMiles77 wrote:

Guys final got the boat back on the water. I had installed a new voltage regulator. When the engine is running 1000 rpms or greater the ammeter is still near +40. I am wondering if it the alternator. You guys got any other suggestions?

What's the voltage at the battery?


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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-31-2020 at 7:00am
Nathan,
Another thought: get an Ohm reading  of the electric choke. I'll get mine and report back.


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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-31-2020 at 7:11am
You could take the alternator and regulator to an auto electric shop and let the guy test them together or...............you could buy a 1 wire Delco style marine alternator and install that for simplicity. It's internally regulated, so no external regulator needed.

The 1 wire hookup is the output terminal that you hook your Orange wire to

I'd put a 40 amp fuse at the output terminal to protect the wiring from overcurrent since the original alternator was about 40 amps max capacity and that's what the wiring up to the ammeter and back to the battery is sized for.

You could also get a 3 wire Delco style with the same internal regulation and the wiring is just about as easy, you just need 12 volts for excitation of it's internal regulator.

The 1 wire is self excited at about 1000 rpm or so and the 3 wire needs to have excitation provided

Plenty of people have done the "Delco swap" Depending on the bracketry, minor mods might be involved

If you were to look at DB Electrical part numbers ADR0106 and ADR0334 you'd see a 3 wire and a 1 wire and their prices

I could post some pictures of both with the wiring hookup shown later if you're thinking about that route.Wink


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-31-2020 at 7:16am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Nathan,
Another thought: get an Ohm reading  of the electric choke. I'll get mine and report back.

Hurry up Pete, you should have it by now Wink

Probably right around 10 ohms and it draws about 1 amp when energized


Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: August-31-2020 at 8:39am
Nathan,
My choke coil reads at 11.5 Ohms across the coil and 11.7 to the engine block. Check yours both ways just to make sure the coil isn't shunted to ground. 


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Posted By: NMiles77
Date Posted: September-05-2020 at 10:42am
Pete I put my DMM across the choke coil. I had 7.1 ohms and 7.2 ohms to the block. So it’s not shunted. We will put the boat back in the water tomorrow. I will again measure the voltage across battery when the engine is running.


Posted By: NMiles77
Date Posted: September-05-2020 at 10:50am
Ken post both pictures of the wiring
of the one and three wire Delco alternators, I was looking at them on DB website. The one wire is very tempting and the price is right.


Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-05-2020 at 11:27am
Originally posted by NMiles77 NMiles77 wrote:

Pete I put my DMM across the choke coil. I had 7.1 ohms and 7.2 ohms to the block. So it’s not shunted. We will put the boat back in the water tomorrow. I will again measure the voltage across battery when the engine is running.

The resistance on your choke coil is low. Ken calculated 10 and I was getting arond 11. 


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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-05-2020 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by NMiles77 NMiles77 wrote:

Pete I put my DMM across the choke coil. I had 7.1 ohms and 7.2 ohms to the block. So it’s not shunted. We will put the boat back in the water tomorrow. I will again measure the voltage across battery when the engine is running.

The resistance on your choke coil is low. Ken calculated 10 and I was getting arond 11. 

Ken didn't calculate 10, he just gave that as an approximate value.Wink

I've seen then anywhere from 7 to 13 ohms and they all worked.

It isn't gonna have any affect on his charging voltage.


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-05-2020 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by NMiles77 NMiles77 wrote:

Ken post both pictures of the wiring
of the one and three wire Delco alternators, I was looking at them on DB website. The one wire is very tempting and the price is right.

Here's a picture of hooking up a 1 wire Delco

If you can count you'll say "but there are 2 wires" Wink

They don't count the ground wire for some reason. You don't really need the ground wire because the case is grounded to the engine through the mounting bolts and a lot of people don't use it but it's pretty easy to put it on.

Hooking up a 3 wire Delco (with 4 wires counting the ground)



Same Black ground wire hookup and Orange output wire hookup

The Red wire is the sensing wire for the internal regulator and in your situation hooking it to the output terminal works well.

The black wire next to it that's hooked to the green wire is the 12 volt excitation for the alternator. The Green wire color is just because that's what I pulled out of the drawer Wink

The 1 wire alternator is "self exciting". When you start the engine and rev it to a little over 1000 rpm's, the alternator is now excited and starts charging.Once it's charging, it will keep charging till you turn the engine off. Then on the next start, you rev it to 1000 or so and it's charging again. You can come down to idle speed and it'll keep charging as long as you revved it enough to excite itself.

The 3 wire needs 12 volts from a keyed ignition source to make it's regulator start charging. No revving it up is necessary.

The 3 wire can sense system voltage anywhere in the electrical system depending on where you hook the wire to.

In your case with a boat that doesn't have any big electrical loads, sensing right at the output terminal works well.

And.......since any of these alternators are a lot more powerful than your original the easiest way to protect your boat wiring which won't really handle much more than the original alternator's 37 or 40 or so amps is to put a 40 amp fuse right at the alternator output.

You won't use all the amps the alternator can put out if you get a 100 amp alternator, you're basically limiting it to 40 amps.

Some people just slap on a 100 or more amp alternator with no fuse at the output and can under the right circumstances melt wiring, make all kinda' sparks under the engine box and that's never a good thing

Here's a picture of a fuse setup that would work. The wiring to the fuse should be at least as big as the 10 gauge alternator output wire.

If you want to use all 100 or so amps, then to be protected you'd need some larger wiring all the way from the alternator to the ammeter in the dash and back to the engine again and you'd need the same size ground wiring.

The simplest but still effective setup would be the 1 wire alternator with a 40 amp fuse on it's output and the rest of your boat wiring could handle that.

Like with most things in life, there's more than one way to do do it, so maybe you'll get some other opinions.






Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-05-2020 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

 
Ken didn't calculate 10, he just gave that as an approximate value.Wink

I've seen then anywhere from 7 to 13 ohms and they all worked.

It isn't gonna have any affect on his charging voltage.
What worked? The electric choke or the Escort charging system with 7 to 13 Ohms at the choke coil?


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<


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-05-2020 at 6:22pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

 
Ken didn't calculate 10, he just gave that as an approximate value.Wink

I've seen then anywhere from 7 to 13 ohms and they all worked.

It isn't gonna have any affect on his charging voltage.
What worked? The electric choke or the Escort charging system with 7 to 13 Ohms at the choke coil?

Those things that read anywhere from 7 to 13 ohms.........they're what worked.

And the choke coil is gonna have no effect on his charging voltage, like I said in the same quote,so he'll still have his charging system issue Wink




Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 6:11am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

 
Ken didn't calculate 10, he just gave that as an approximate value.Wink

I've seen then anywhere from 7 to 13 ohms and they all worked.

It isn't gonna have any affect on his charging voltage.
What worked? The electric choke or the Escort charging system with 7 to 13 Ohms at the choke coil?

Those things that read anywhere from 7 to 13 ohms.........they're what worked.

And the choke coil is gonna have no effect on his charging voltage, like I said in the same quote,so he'll still have his charging system issue Wink

Ken,
What is the resistance of the choke coil doing for the regulator circuit? 


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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 6:30am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Nathan,
Another thought: get an Ohm reading  of the electric choke. I'll get mine and report back.

I guess you should tell me, you're the one who brought up the choke coil to begin with  Wink


Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 8:35am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Nathan,
Another thought: get an Ohm reading  of the electric choke. I'll get mine and report back.

I guess you should tell me, you're the one who brought up the choke coil to begin with  Wink
Ken,
Yes I did bring it up after checking the alternator/regulator wiring on the Escort and finding the connection to the choke coil.  I don't know what the resistance in the circuit is doing and it sounds like you don't have any idea ether! Shocked


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<


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 11:23am
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Nathan,
Another thought: get an Ohm reading  of the electric choke. I'll get mine and report back.

I guess you should tell me, you're the one who brought up the choke coil to begin with  Wink
Ken,
Yes I did bring it up after checking the alternator/regulator wiring on the Escort and finding the connection to the choke coil.  I don't know what the resistance in the circuit is doing and it sounds like you don't have any idea ether! Shocked

I guess I don't know what you're thinking but it's(the s terminal) just a handy place to grab 12 volts and feed it to the choke Wink 

No feed to the alternator at all from that wire


Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 11:58am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Nathan,
Another thought: get an Ohm reading  of the electric choke. I'll get mine and report back.

I guess you should tell me, you're the one who brought up the choke coil to begin with  Wink
Ken,
Yes I did bring it up after checking the alternator/regulator wiring on the Escort and finding the connection to the choke coil.  I don't know what the resistance in the circuit is doing and it sounds like you don't have any idea ether! Shocked

I guess I don't know what you're thinking but it's(the s terminal) just a handy place to grab 12 volts and feed it to the choke Wink 

No feed to the alternator at all from that wire
Ken,
My thinking is why did they what resistance on the REGULATOR. BTW, the "I" terminal on the start relay is closer than the regulator so, that's an even HANDIER spot to pick up 12 volts.


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<


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

Originally posted by 8122pbrainard 8122pbrainard wrote:

Nathan,
Another thought: get an Ohm reading  of the electric choke. I'll get mine and report back.

I guess you should tell me, you're the one who brought up the choke coil to begin with  Wink
Ken,
Yes I did bring it up after checking the alternator/regulator wiring on the Escort and finding the connection to the choke coil.  I don't know what the resistance in the circuit is doing and it sounds like you don't have any idea ether! Shocked

I guess I don't know what you're thinking but it's(the s terminal) just a handy place to grab 12 volts and feed it to the choke Wink 

No feed to the alternator at all from that wire
Ken,
My thinking is why did they what resistance on the REGULATOR. BTW, the "I" terminal on the start relay is closer than the regulator so, that's an even HANDIER spot to pick up 12 volts.

We might set a record for number of quotes in one post here PeteWink

You need to think about when the "I" terminal actually has any power supplied to it and then decide if that's what you want powering? your choke Pete


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-07-2020 at 6:22am
Got that "I" terminal figured out yet Pete Wink

Edit.........I guess you're still figuring it out Pete, but for anybody else that's reading, the "I" terminal only has power when the key is in Start and no power in Run, so it's not of any use for powering the choke or providing voltage to the "S" terminal when the engine is running.



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