HELP!! Transmission swap with PCM V-Drive
Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49182
Printed Date: November-23-2024 at 11:11am
Topic: HELP!! Transmission swap with PCM V-Drive
Posted By: Liquiddreams
Subject: HELP!! Transmission swap with PCM V-Drive
Date Posted: September-02-2020 at 2:04pm
First, I hate that my first post is a request for help. Second, I am taking picture along the way to aid others that attempt this down the road. I just found CorrectCraftFan today. A member of PlanetNautique recommended coming to this forum. This job has been fighting me for weeks now. Just bought the boat a few months ago (2012 SAN TE 210) and the transmission cooler went out which got water in the transmission. It started slipping before I caught it. Decided to upgrade from the 40 series to the 80 series instead of rebuilding. Since then It's been one thing after the other. It took weeks to get the transmission due to the Pandemic. The prop was stuck on the shaft when I went to take it off. The previous owners must have never taken off, because it fought me. Even heat wouldn't make it pop off. I ended up buying one of the ACME C-clamp pullers (which is not easy to find in stock right now). Got the prop off finally and started on the inside. Got the transmission cooler changed out to the 12" one with no problems. When I went to remove the shaft coupler it moved about 1/4" inch and now it refuses to let go. It literally bent the puller trying to get it off. Scared to use heat due to the gas tank be in such close proximity.
1. Any ideas on how to get that coupler off? I can pull the shaft forward so the two couplers are separated, but the shaft one is still on there. I have been using a harmonic balancer puller.I thought about trying the ACME C-clamp on it, but I am not sure there is enough clearance.
2. I thought about just putting some wood blocks under the v-drive to support it and then removing it's mounting bolts to slide it back enough to get the transmission out. Not sure if this would work and I am kind of afraid that I am going to mess up the shaft or the strut. Any thoughts on this approach or has some done this approach.
I am open to any advice on this swap. I have worked on a lot of straight shafts, but this is my first v-drive. I really didn't think it would be that bad and if it wasn't for the shaft components I don't think it would be.
Any one with experience swapping a transmission out that had a v-drive I would love some advice or tips. Anything else I need to worry about? I have been taking pictures with the hopes of uploading them in the end to assist anyone else that does it in the future.
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Replies:
Posted By: Jonny Quest
Date Posted: September-02-2020 at 4:09pm
Here is how I removed the coupler from the shaft In my direct drive. First, I removed the safety collar from the driveshaft. Then I removed the bolts connecting the coupler to the transmission flange and separated the coupler from transmission flange. I was able to get 2” To 3” space between coupler and transmission flange. Then I inserted a large, shallow socket between the coupler and transmission flange. I then inserted some grade 8 bolts, washers and nuts through the coupler bolt holes and through the transmission flange. Then by tightening down on the 4 bolts/nuts in sequence, the coupler on the prop shaft was “pressed” off the shaft. Easy Peazy. Hopefully my description makes sense. A V-drive maybe different...
JQ
------------- Current 2003 Ski Nautique 206 Limited
Previous 2001 Ski Nautique Open Bow 1994 Ski Nautique Open Bow
Aqua skiing, ergo sum
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Posted By: Liquiddreams
Date Posted: September-02-2020 at 4:32pm
I appreciate the reply and that is the scenario I am use to in my old boat. However, this 2012 has a PCM v-drive so the coupler set up is different. This is my first v-drive setup so I am still getting familiar with it. I am going to try to post a picture later for reference.
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-02-2020 at 4:33pm
I'd like to add to the above method. Use fine thread bolts or even grade 8 threaded rod. And then use some "never-seize". Both make it lots eaisier. I like to use threaded rod since you get more threads rather than switching to different length bolts.
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-02-2020 at 4:49pm
William, Pictures have been lost when CCfan was hacked a couple months ago but I found a old post that may help:
8122pbrainard wrote:
Pat, Here's the spacer and long bolt trick used to remove the shaft coupling:
The coupling to the shaft should be a interference fit so they can be difficult at times to remove. If your's comes off easy and there's a black "smut" at the bore of the coupling and on the shaft then the coupling has fretted due to bad shaft to engine alignment. Hopefully you'll be ok. Get out the micrometer and measure. The bore should be .0005 to .001 under the shaft. Now, since it a shrink fit, to get the coupling back on, you'll need to heat the coupling in your oven at about 450 degrees for several hours. This will allow you to slip the coupling on the shaft before it cools.
Before you go to put the coupling back on, you should check the face to make sure you haven't warped it when removing it. A flat file accross the face is the easiest but chucking it up in the lath and using a dial indicator is best. If it is warped, then it needs to be pressed on the shaft and a facing cut taken to true it up.
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One thing you mentioned that concerns me and that is you said the coupling moved slighly and then locked up. It shouldn't have moved at all. Again, the coupling to shaft is a heat shrink interference fit.
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-02-2020 at 5:55pm
Here's a picture of a coupler that probably looks a lot like yours.
Matter of fact it is yours (or somebody with the same screen name and problem on PN )
Here's a link to a You Tube video down below.
Maybe your harmonic balancer puller wasn't strong enough, you're going about it the right way from the description you gave. They can be on there tighter than tight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjvc7gPfWzA" rel="nofollow - link
The method Pete and JQ talk about won't work with your coupler, you're doing it right though
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Posted By: Liquiddreams
Date Posted: September-02-2020 at 6:07pm
KENO wrote:
Here's a picture of a coupler that probably looks a lot like yours.
Matter of fact it is yours (or somebody with the same screen name and problem on PN )
Here's a link to a You Tube video down below.
Maybe your harmonic balancer puller wasn't strong enough, you're going about it the right way from the description you gave. They can be on there tighter than tight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjvc7gPfWzA" rel="nofollow - link |
Yep, that is me and that is the picture of the devil. Lol Couldn't figure out how to post the pic from my phone. That is the video I watched and got me to where I am. I sprayed some penetrating fluid on it last night, so I'm about to head out there to see if it helped. Wish me luck
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-02-2020 at 6:17pm
Here's wishin at ya kid
Are you using a puller with 4 bolts to distribute the force evenly around the flange.
CCF phones and photos don't get along too good at all.
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-02-2020 at 6:31pm
One other thing, I think I should mention that you have a double tapered shaft and it'll pop just like a prop does on the other end of the shaft. Nothing, nothing, then bam it pops.
You just don't have much room to whack the center bolt on the puller with a hammer when things are tight
When the time comes it's a lot easier to put the coupling back on the shaft with the tapered shaft setup.
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Posted By: Liquiddreams
Date Posted: September-02-2020 at 11:06pm
KENO wrote:
One other thing, I think you have a double tapered shaft and it'll pop just like a prop does on the other end of the shaft. Nothing, nothing, then bam it pops.
You just don't have much room to whack the center bolt on the puller with a hammer when things are tight
When the time comes it's a lot easier to put the coupling back on the shaft with the tapered shaft setup. |
It won!! I am standing down until I can get that puller like the one in the video. Then I will re-address this situation. Very disheartening... I have spent so much time on this prop and coupler that I could have already had the transmission in and back on the water. Thanks for all of the help and I am always open to advice or ideas.
Going to throw together a DIY Post with pictures once this is all completed. I have scoured the internet for information and was very surprised at how limited it is out there.
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-03-2020 at 5:24am
William, It's great Ken did some footwork and found your PN post filling in some gaps in information. So, now that you have a double taper shaft, you don't need to worry about heat shrink interference fits. Good luck with using that puller. It looks like it will work for you.
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64 X55 Dunphy
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-03-2020 at 7:07am
Just remember, when the going gets tough, the tough pull out the reciprocating saw or grinder and show that shaft who's the boss
Then you buy a new shaft like in the link
http://www.mniboats.com/Nautique-Boat-Double-Tapered-Shaft-Reverse-p/3532.htm" rel="nofollow - link
I really only put that link there to show you where I got the double tapered shaft info from.
Might be a silly question, not being familiar with a 2012 SAN 210, but how hard is it to remove the gas tank and slide the shaft and coupling out the front?
One of those little voices in my head says it's probably fairly tough
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Posted By: Liquiddreams
Date Posted: September-03-2020 at 10:55pm
KENO wrote:
Just remember, when the going gets tough, the tough pull out the reciprocating saw or grinder and show that shaft who's the boss
Then you buy a new shaft like in the link
http://www.mniboats.com/Nautique-Boat-Double-Tapered-Shaft-Reverse-p/3532.htm" rel="nofollow - link
I really only put that link there to show you where I got the double tapered shaft info from.
Might be a silly question, not being familiar with a SAN 210, but how hard is it to remove the gas tank and slide the shaft and coupling out the front?
One of those little voices in my head says it's probably fairly tough |
Good call. I ordered the puller, but I was able to move the bow ballasts and gas tank forward (it was a pain btw). Got the shaft out with the coupler attached and the v-drive is removed. Tomorrow moving on to the transmission. I really appreciate everyone's input and assistance. More to follow as it moves along.
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-04-2020 at 5:47am
Somebody has to ask those silly questions
Glad it's out and you're movin' on
I'd pull the coupling when the new puller shows up just to clean up the seating surface on the shaft and hopefully make any future disassembly easier. (and much more importantly, just to show that coupling who the boss is)
Some heat and tighten the center bolt on the puller good and tight and a good whack on the center bolt with a hammer should have it off.
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Posted By: Liquiddreams
Date Posted: September-05-2020 at 1:23am
Well, v-drive and transmission are out. I was going at a good pace until I go t to the bell housing to replace the damper plate.I have removed all of the dust cover bolts and I believe all of the bell housing bolts. However, that thing will not come off. Any tricks to get it to break free? I believe it might be the pain holding it on, but I didn't want to go beating on it. Any diagrams or posts with picture you all can aim me to. I have searched the threads and nothing about a stuck bell housing comes up.
On a side note: Is there any where I can go to get the torque specifications for the install? Thanks in advance
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: September-05-2020 at 6:27am
This just came up on another thread with a damper replacement. Chevy's have another bolt under this plate- You can thank Matt for his investigative work http://https://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49060&KW=&PID=589252&title=dampener-plate-replacement-yikes#589252" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49060&KW=&PID=589252&title=dampener-plate-replacement-yikes#589252
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-05-2020 at 6:49am
Gary
Your link .............it don't work
Here's one that works
If you look at the beginning of yours and compare to this link, you have http://https://, you can get rid of some of that crap and make it look like what's below. I have no idea what those numbers are in the middle and at the end of your link either.
If only Keith had some instructions, since it's not exactly too easy to figure out Mpost helped me get things figured out.
There haven't exactly been too many hyperlinks posted since the site was restored.
http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49060&title=dampener-plate-replacement-yikes" rel="nofollow - http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49060&title=dampener-plate-replacement-yikes
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: September-05-2020 at 7:38am
Thanks Ken. I didn’t check that after I posted it’s way to fricking early. Since the ice is out I wanted to get an early start to the holiday weekend
------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-05-2020 at 7:52am
Gary S wrote:
Thanks Ken. I didn’t check that after I posted it’s way to fricking early. Since the ice is out I wanted to get an early start to the holiday weekend |
I thought it was a little early in the morning for you Gary
Probably be all iced over by Monday morning so hurry up
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Posted By: Liquiddreams
Date Posted: September-05-2020 at 9:33am
Gary S wrote:
This just came up on another thread with a damper replacement. Chevy's have another bolt under this plate-You can thank Matt for his investigative work http://https://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49060&KW=&PID=589252&title=dampener-plate-replacement-yikes#589252" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49060&KW=&PID=589252&title=dampener-plate-replacement-yikes#589252
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Thanks. I found that late last night and I am planning on checking that this morning. I didn't even remove the plate. I would have never thought the manufacturer would have hidden a bolt under there. I have rubbed the back of that bell housing so much I think it is going to press charges. Lol
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Posted By: Liquiddreams
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 8:02pm
Well, everything is in, but now the shaft coupler isn't seating correctly. Cannot get the shoulder on to even start the alignment. I have been looking for alignment steps on the forums, but so far I have not been able to find them. The coupler looks like an even gap all the way around, but it just want seat. Any ideas?
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 8:41pm
Liquiddreams wrote:
Well, everything is in, but now the shaft coupler isn't seating correctly. Cannot get the shoulder on to even start the alignment. I have been looking for alignment steps on the forums, but so far I have not been able to find them. The coupler looks like an even gap all the way around, but it just want seat. Any ideas? |
How hard did the coupling come apart after the bolts were out? Maybe the alignment was off when you got the boat. Maybe you need to move the engine, transmission and v drive enough to let the coupling halves mate, then you can worry about the alignment.
Page 44 thru 47 in the link give you some guidance on alignment with a brief mention of your PCM v drive and a bunch of illustrations of the earlier style that had the coupling under the v drive instead of the pass thru shaft style.
http://www.planetnautique.com/CorrectCraftManuals/2013/2013pcm.pdf" rel="nofollow - link
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 8:46pm
Liquiddreams When I went to remove the shaft coupler it moved about 1/4 inch and now it refuses to let go. It literally bent the puller trying to get it off. Scared to use heat due to the gas tank be in such close proximity.[/QUOTE wrote:
Did you take the coupling off the shaft and clean things up, then reinstall it?
Or just slap it back in without removing the coupling?
What ever happened with the 1/4 inch mentioned above?
So many questions |
Did you take the coupling off the shaft and clean things up, then reinstall it?
Or just slap it back in without removing the coupling?
What ever happened with the 1/4 inch mentioned above?
So many questions
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Posted By: Liquiddreams
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 8:49pm
It was actually extremely hard to get it apart. However, once it came apart it did not want to seat again (I know this because it took a while to get the shaftbout lol). The coupler and the prop both were stuck on the shaft (almost looked like rust under them). Once they were removed I lapped both ends to assure a good fit. Made sure the faces were good. It looks like it lines right up and starts the seat, but won't go all the way. It is an even gap all the way around. That is why I don't even know where to start the adjustment.
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Posted By: Liquiddreams
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 8:52pm
Oh no, I don't do anything half ass. Lol. My coupler puller came in and I spent a while making sure shaft and coupler were good. Another response above with more detail
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Posted By: Liquiddreams
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 8:55pm
https://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/uploads/20030/20200901_183304.jpg
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Posted By: Liquiddreams
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 8:56pm
Took a pic but I am not sure oif the link is going to work. It was worth a shot
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 8:58pm
------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport
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Posted By: Liquiddreams
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 9:01pm
Gary S wrote:
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That was the original one when it was being a booger to come I ut. Thanks Gary
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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 9:03pm
If the coupler is not on the shaft, does it mate up easily with the other half on the v drive?
Just me thinking, but I think it was out of alignment when you bought it and while you're looking at it all twisted and contorted to get a look at it, it might look good to the naked eye, but be off enough to prevent the couplers from mating right.
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Posted By: Liquiddreams
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 9:06pm
https://www.planetnautique.com/vb5/filedata/fetch?id=623371&d=1599440630
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 9:41pm
These I can do it's those links that have my time
------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport
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Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 9:42pm
I wonder how it fits with out the shaft in place?
------------- http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS 95 Nautique Super Sport
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Posted By: Liquiddreams
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 9:53pm
Thanks Gary. I'll figure them out one day. I thought if I posted it in PN and pasted the link here it would work...Keno has me wondering about that too, but dang I hate to take this shaft back out. Lol trying some adjustments right now to sew if I can get it.
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Posted By: Liquiddreams
Date Posted: September-06-2020 at 9:58pm
Well, the answer is no they don't. So I will be working on them until they mate... that v-drive will mate and like it...lol
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Posted By: Liquiddreams
Date Posted: September-07-2020 at 11:59am
So I have them mating without the shaft and ended up being some spots on the v-drive side of the coupler. Corrosion caused some pitting that was holding it out. They mate freely now, but I had the engine so far out of alignment it has been a booger to get back in. I cannot seem to get rid of a pinch at LC, RC AND LOWER A. My question is this.. do you re-mate the coupler each time you make an adjustment? I can adjust and get it where the feeler is good all the way around, but then when I re-mate the coupler it has the pinch back.I will be buying a new coupler this winter.
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Posted By: 8122pbrainard
Date Posted: September-07-2020 at 12:12pm
You don't need to remate the coupling halves all the way. Just make sure the male and female pilot steps are aligned and you don't have to apply sideways force to engauge them.
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Posted By: Liquiddreams
Date Posted: September-07-2020 at 11:04pm
Well, everything is in (minus reat ballasts) and I took it out on the water for a test run and the Transmission ran like champ. Only had one issue and that is the droplets shaft seal is slinging water up on the engine while running. I will be taking a look at that tomorrow. The only other thing I notice was a slight whine when drivin, but I had all of the hatches open so I could hear everything. With the hatches closed I couldn't hear it. I want to thank all of you for the help and advice.
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Posted By: Liquiddreams
Date Posted: September-10-2020 at 10:04pm
Alright, I made a post about my adventure with this project over in the Engine repair thread. I hope that it helps someone down the road that happens to get into that same situation.
https://correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49219&title=2012-san-210-pcm-40-to-80-series-transmission-swap" rel="nofollow - https://correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=49219&title=2012-san-210-pcm-40-to-80-series-transmission-swap
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