Background:

Newly rebuilt GT40 with 18 hours. 

Ran fine until last Friday (except for hard starts when engine was hot after sitting).

Saturday morning I went to crank it, it started immediately and ran for 5 seconds then died. Would sound like it would about to start when cranking but would not. 

Troubleshooting steps:

Drained FCC. Then turned ignition to prime. I DO hear LP pump prime and can then drain a full FCC. So the LP pump is working I believe.

INTERESTING NOTE: After draining and refilling FCC, the engine cranks and runs for about 4 seconds before dying again. Subsequent attempts do not start at all.

Ordered a HP pump from Skidim. Replaced this morning. Engine cranked again for 4 seconds and died. Was able to start it a second time for 4 seconds. But now it wont start at all. 

I have triple checked the Kill Switch and even placed a dime to ensure it is depressed. I have replaced both fuel relays. 

Last interesting note: If I press the schrader valve on the fuel rail immediately after starting, then a good squirt of gas comes out. But if I wait 10 mins after last cranking attempt, almost nothing comes out. Could the injectors be leaking and if so could they be suspect? Injectors were tested during rebuild and not replaced.

I'm at a loss about what to do next. I do have a spare LP fuel pump on the shelf, but I don't want to start randomly replacing parts unless it makes sense.

Gary, Ken, others, impart your deep wisdom on what you would do next!

(Also, I have a spare ECU as well. Could this smell of an ECU issue? I find it wierd that after draining and refilling FCC, that it always starts for a few seconds.)

Then you can put the dime back in your pocket  .

Edit, when mine split it would run up to 1500 rpm and not rev beyond that.  So maybe not your issue.  Also, be aware there is a retrofit for the wires on top of FCC to prevent fuel leak around wires.

As a side note though I'm leaning toward the PIP sensor inside the distributor and here's why. I had an late 80's something Mercury Topaz that was running fine. Shut it off when we had got home- the next day went to leave and it was no start. Had no spark so I went through the tests and it was the TFI. In your case it's actually starting and then shutting off right?  The PIP sensor is the sensor that tells the ECM that yes the engine is running much like a crankshaft position sensor which other manufacturers used. It seems to be a usual suspect when the engine does not run. Usually people change out the whole distributor assy. I realize your in Canada but this is what you need- cast gear.   http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/ford,1995,f-350,5.8l+v8,1126910,ignition,distributor,7108" rel="nofollow - http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/ford,1995,f-350,5.8l+v8,1126910,ignition,distributor,7108  None of these including the OEM ones are marine,the cap is vented and that vent needs to be siliconed up.

  

I'd disconnect it at the coil and see what happens.

And I'd try the new TFI module too

It shouldn't be bouncing or pegged so if it's malfunctioning and grounding itself it'll cause problems because it's also grounding the ignition coil since the signal is from the negative post of the coil, and a grounded coil doesn't like to make a spark.

Disconnecting it just takes one possibility out of the picture.

Here are some data points on fuel pressure from my 2002 GT 40.

Started Engine in the water, 2,000 rpm while in neutral and the pressure is 35 psi.  Turned off the engine and pressure leaked down to 32 psi, at 2 minutes it was 25 psi, at 3 minutes it was 20 psi, at 4 minutes it was 15 psi. 

Started boat again and and at 2,000 rpm in neutral I pulled the vacuum line and the fuel pressure went to 39 psi. 

Ran boat in the lake at around 3,500 rpm and fuel pressure was 40 psi.

Edit: Notes from 2015 fuel pressures recorded when troubleshooting performance issues, turned out to be a bad muffler baffle.

His numbers all sound right in accordance with the manual  and the way the system operates.

This is the TFI I used in a parts throwing diagnosis episode.

I'll bet some of that research was from the thread linked below, which has a link to the poor man's gt40 thread and the discussion on the gray module followed shortly after by Lewy's update/correction saying that the black one was right (your CBE40 is in that list of the black ones)

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=41915&title=gt40-thick-film-ignition-module-tfi" rel="nofollow - link

i

Does your presently installed module have a Ford or Motorcraft number on it? If it's original it should

Get one of each and throw them both at it and return one or both depending on your results.

You may think I'm joking but with all the conflicting info out there, it might be the best approach or the only good approach right now.

Here's some info for ya.

You can click on the link below to Nautiqueparts and pretty easily read the number on the one that they sell.

http://www.nautiqueparts.com/product/tfi-module/" rel="nofollow - link

It's F1SF-12A297-C1A.

That's what came on the original version of the gt40 engine that Ford made. It was for OMC/Volvo Penta a year or 2 before PCM started using it, and in the poor man's thread there was confirmation from PCM that it was what they used.

That's really an engineering number, not a part number 

That number has been superseded at least a couple of times over the years.

It all makes me see BLACK and Motorcraft DY-1077 (and numbers like Jay mentioned earlier that cross reference to it.)

I might be able to track down a friend's boat that we stuck a Motorcraft module in a number of years ago, but it's got a new owner who might not be too eager to pull parts just to see what's in there. he's no fun 

After all this, it'll probably turn out that it's not your issue

I've been following this thread and I'm still curious what will happen when you disconnect the tach. 

And that reminds me that you asked about disconnecting at the tach instead.

It should do.(unless there's an issue with the wiring), so I'd disconnect the signal wire at the tach.

She is still has some issues which I will explain here, but first my process.

1) The TFI replacement did nothing as previously stated. 

2) Disconnecting the Tach changed nothing.

3) I then disconnected the distributor plug (with the tach connected) and turned over engine. The tach started behaving normally and not pegging out. It correctly showed the cranking rpms. Of course she didn't start as there was no spark with the disty disconnected but this isolated my crazy tach behaviour. I think this is a good test for future people experiencing this. 

4) While playing with the disty, I discovered the small ground wire bolted to the disty side of the alternator as slightly loose. I tightened this. Upon plugging disty back in and tightnening ground, 2 things happened....A) the crazy tach returned and B) engine started and ran for 4-5 seconds and died (which hasn't happened for 3 days now!) Subsequent cranking did not get engine to run, but this was a change. I am assuming it was because of the ground. This lead me to agree with Gary that it could be the PIP sensor or something in the disty.

5) Based on this data, I got my new spare disty (an hour's drive back home from the cottage). I changed the it out (which was a first for me. I wanted a million youtube videos and talked it through with a mechanic friend before starting). I got the new disty lined up exactly like old one (while flywheel was at dead center) and as soon as I cranked her, she started and ran!!!!! Wahooo! She died after 5 seconds, BUT started again and ran 5 secs. was able to always start even though it would die after 5 seconds. 

6) I had 2 used correct black TFI's I brought from home (the new one was an incorrect grey one). I was donated the old TFI's so I have no idea their status. I plugged one of them in (with its attached heat sync) and just let it dangle and this time BOOM she started and stayed running. Idle was loping and almost died a few time but managed to stay on. 

7) From this I think I had 3 issues going on. A loose ground, a bad PIP/disty, a bad TFI. 

8) I took her for a test ride and had the following results:

A) During WOT she died. Quickly discovered the LP fuel pump was not priming. Reached under and wiggled the pressure fit wire connector and it came on. So the boats LP fuel pump connector seems a bit too big for the new pump's stud. Not sure what to do about this? Ideas?

B) While idling out into the lake worked well with a small amount of throttle, coming back in the engine died when going to idle or trying to run in gear at idle. I had to give it a little gas to keep it running. Also, the lopping continued. I am going to replace the grey TFI I bought yesterday with the correct black one, the autoparts store agreed to exchange it. Looking at the GT40 Poor Man's spreadsheet, the loping idle seems to be solved by Idle air and MAP sensor. I have a new IAC valve on the shelf (I also have a spare TPS sensor). But it didn't do this before all of this started, so why would the IAC have issues now? Is there some calibration I need to do on the IAC or idle throttle settings?

Thanks so much for getting me here guys! Hopefully this experience helps others. Let me know your thoughts on these remaining issues.

When it first starts up she is running super smooth sounding apart from the slow up and down of the idle. I thought the ECU handled fine timing on these engines,no? I've never done timing, but I'm not opposed to learning.

I think it's time that you be officially be declared a member in good standing of the Canadian chapter of the CCF Hoarders and Parts Swappers club 

Ain't it great to have a bunch of parts on the shelf that you can swap out to find your problem and fix it too?

You get those people who say you have to diagnose and figure out that one part that's causing your issue, well that sounds great on paper or typing it on your computer but in real life it just doesn't happen too often especially on later fuel injected, computer controlled engines that take a whole pile of specialized equipment to "diagnose". it's nice to have a spark tester and fuel pressure gauge and timing light  for getting on the right track though.

Just look at all the gt40 threads where the fix came about after a whole bunch of parts swapping unless the problem was staring you right in the face.

So, good job so far and .welcome to the club  

PS............. check the timing like mentioned. The manual tells you how.

Another PS........A couple of years ago you messed with the TPS, I'd make sure that's adjusted right or dip into that parts collection and try another one.

1) By adjusting distributer I was able to resolve rolling idle and get idle nice and stable. However once timing light was applied (and yes, inductor was on spark wire for CYL 1 and pointing in correct direction of plug), it read 20 degrees. I removed the grey SPOUT connector as directed but nothing changed. If I rotate distributer to bring timing down from 20 to 5 degrees, the engine died at about 10 degrees. 20 degrees was definitely the smooth idle.

2) Assuming that maybe the distributer was on the wrong tooth, I placed crankshaft on 5 BTDC mark using breaker bar and saw that rotor was not pointed directly at contact for CYL 1. I lifted distributer and moved it slightly (1 tooth I imagine) to get it to align. It was a hard start and I had to rotate distributer slightly to get idle smooth, this time it landed at 12-15 degrees for smooth idle. Engine would run at 5 degrees but very roughly. I plugged SPOUT jumper back in, set at 5 was still VERY rough. At 12-15 degrees was smooth.  

If I left idle set to 5 degrees (with SPOUT unpluggred) and turned throttle up to 2000 rpms it would smooth out a bit. If I adjusted distributer while at 2000 rpm to 12-15 degrees the engine would get smoother and RPMs would increase. Likewise, if I have disty set to 12-15 degrees at 2000 and then rotated it to 5 degrees, the rpms would drop from 2000 down to about 1600. From there if I pulled back to idle slowly it would stay started albeit with loping idle, but if I pulled back normally, engine would die. 

Should base timing set at 5 degrees per the service manual run so roughly and even die occasionally at idle? All tests above were done with warm engine.

I'm completely new to this timing thing. I am a fast learner, lay it on me, what am I missing here?

I've set the rotor based off of the removed disty position. Is it possible that the disty is 180 degrees off on CYL 1? I tried to use my finger (with 2 rubber gloves on) to plug CYL 1 spark hole while rotating engine with breaker bar to 5 BTDC per a comment on PlanetNautique. Engine was too hot to push hard enough to feel if air escaped my finger. I'll try this test again in the morning with a cold engine. Will I feel air sucking in or pushing out when it is aligned at TDC at CYL 1? 

As I recall, we used a timing light and started a 5* but it was rough. He turned the dizzy until it was smooth and called it good.  Not sure of final degree reading but it wasn’t 5* anymore.  Recall opening and closing spout but not sure if there was any change doing so.  Put 200 more hours on the engine and sold that boat or else I would check it again for timing.

That was my only experience so I leave further insight to those with more expertise.

180 degrees out and a running engine is impossible 

Air will be pushing out as you approach TDC on the compression stroke. As the piston rises from the bottom of it's stroke up to TDC, it's blowing air out the whole time.

If you don't feel like turning a wrench and stretching over to the #1 plug hole at the same time, lightly stuff a piece of cloth in the hole instead of your finger and it'll blow the cloth out on the approach and then you continue rotating until you have your timing marks lined up.

Went for a test ride after engine was hot. Next issue, as soon as you put her in gear, she stalls. After several stalls I figured out that if I put her in gear really quicly and get some throttle I could get her in gear without the stall. After WOT for 10 minutes she did get a bit better but still almost stalled when going into gear. 

Thoughts on this?

https://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?endless=summer&topic=Search&category=Parts_Motor&postid=59650" rel="nofollow - https://www.ski-it-again.com/php/skiitagain.php?endless=summer&topic=Search&category=Parts_Motor&postid=59650

With it in the circuit is complete and the computer will vary timing with signals it gets from all the various sensors

So............with your timing at 20 degrees and the Spout connector installed,, if you rev the engine in neutral does the timing change or if you check the timing under load out on the lake does the timing change or is it always at 20 degrees, (for example if you're 3000 rpm down the lake, what's your timing advance?)

I mentioned the TPS since you changed it a while back and if it's not adjusted right, the computer won't think the throttle blades are closed. The big manual has testing info.

Dizzy, I'm so dizzy my head is spinning..................Tommy Roe 1969 

I don't know how you Canucks are, but an American backyard hack might tape up the offending wire and use it for the next handful of years 

If you really think the balancer has shifted, read about finding true TDC on Google and if you decide you're replacing it, there's a Ford part number cast into the balancer that you can use to find another one.

You'll have a 4 bolt balancer (4 bolt holes for the pulley to mount to the balancer).

They come in  different thicknesses, have TDC marked in different locations depending on the application and pointer location on the engine so you want something that is an exact cross reference to that ford number

So......... let's have that recap 

GT40 engine was rebuilt 2 years ago. Engine still only had about 28 hours at begining of summer as I've been working on rest of the restoration.

One morning it just wouldn't start (hence this thread). After a lot of part swapping, I got it going again with a new distributor (cardone rebuilt from RockAuto WITH cast iron gear). That got the engine running but it still had issues staying cranked. Ran codes on my Innova Ford ECC IV reader and found a no voltage on TPS. Replaced TPS and boom, would remain started.

Then had weird sounds that turned out to be 3 badly burned spark wires on port side. They were up against the manifold and 1 was cracked all the way around and had arced so much to the block there was a divot. 

Replaced wires with custom cut kit and filled everything ;) with dielectric grease.

Engine would now run but there was a bad loping/hunting idle that would sometimes result in a stall. Replaced MAP, IACV, PCV, Fuel Reg (and TFI was replaced earlier). Nothing would solve issue. Looked for vacuum leaks (during bad loping, with a vaccum gauge teed off fuel pressure reg, it would be in green when over 900 rpms of lope and almost 0 at low end.) But no evidence of vacuum leak.

In the middle of all this, while just "living with" the loping idle, battery would not turn over engine and had to get towed in on 2 occasions. Turned out the AWG 2 battery cables were badly corroded and were not allowing alternator to charge the battery. Could wiggle the cable to short the connection. Replaced with AWG 0 marine tinned cables.

I had swapped out my ECU with my spare when troubleshooting the no-start issue. Once starting was resolved I put the original ECU back. While trying to resolve the loping idle, I kept thinking I had already tried replacing ECU, but realized today I only replaced it during no-start diag. So today I swapped out my ECU and boom, loping idle resolved! It still lopes hot by about 25-50 rpm but nothing compared to what it had been doing (300-400 rpm). 

Its been frustrating but I have learned a heap along the way. I feel like I have a much better understanding of more intermediate engine working and diagnostics. 

A few notes to others reading this in the future.

1) when you replace a TPS sensor, you MUST follow the instructions to adjust it. My new sensor was defaulted to 0.79 volts when it needed to be 0.96-0.98v. Also, it was pretty difficult to back probe the TPS plug (either one). I tried 3 sets of multimeter probes. Ended up buying a back probe needle/pin kit from Amazon and was finally able to get a reading.

2) IAC valve obviously needs to be tight but since the throttle body is aluminum you can easily over tighten. I did and striped the top bolt. Its holding with no leak but I imagine I will need to tap it to next size up and get a new screw.

I still have 2 remaining issues that I am going to start a new thread on since they go well outside the original context of this no-start thread. I've developed a moderate engine vibration that can be felt in boat, throttle and steering wheel. Also, I still can only get timing to 10-12 TDC, not the 5 it should. I suspect I have a harmonic balancer that has shifted. Anyhoo...look for the new threads about some questions I have with those issues.

Again, thanks to everyone who has help out here!!!!!!

If you are concerned about yours maybe wait till the season is over and ship yours in for a rebuild.

In the Classic Car industry many owners are very concerned about using exact OEM parts or Matching OEM parts so rebuilt dampers have a demand that hopefully keeps these guys in business.

Glad you are getting this figured out.

Mark

New thread about HB:  https://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50854&PID=607199" rel="nofollow - GT40 Harmonic Balancer slip - can't time to 5BTDC - CorrectCraftFan.com Forums

New thread about engine vibration:  https://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50855&PID=607201&#607201" rel="nofollow - GT40 EFI engine vibration - CorrectCraftFan.com Forums