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Excalibur 330 misfire

Printed From: CorrectCraftFan.com
Category: Repairs and Maintenance
Forum Name: Engine Repair
Forum Discription: Engine problems and solutions
URL: http://www.CorrectCraftFan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50832
Printed Date: November-24-2024 at 12:23pm


Topic: Excalibur 330 misfire
Posted By: steve600
Subject: Excalibur 330 misfire
Date Posted: August-10-2022 at 11:08pm
Hello, 2004 196 runs great at idle and wot. Around 3k rpms cylinder #4 stops firing. I found this by putting timing light on all the plug wires. All firing good except #4. I have replaced cap rotor and wires. Is it a clogged injector or ecm malfunction? Any info would be great!



Replies:
Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-10-2022 at 11:32pm
No check engine light coming on either.


Posted By: Mpost
Date Posted: August-11-2022 at 8:22am
What about the spark plug? A bad injector would not make the spark go away. I am not familure with the Exc. dizzy?



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84 SN Sold   98 SN    Lund Pro V   1975 Alumacraft


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-11-2022 at 8:32am
Plugs are new, it did the same with old plug as well. Good point I overlooked on the injector. I have done cap and rotor, I too am note familiar on this engine as I’m coming from an 83 2001


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-11-2022 at 7:03pm
If it runs great at WOT, does that mean the cylinder starts firing again sometime above 3000 rpm or it's a great running V7 engine at full throttle?

Has it done this since you got the boat?, it sounds like it's new to you




Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-11-2022 at 8:05pm
Yes, comes back in at wot. The boat is new to me


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-12-2022 at 7:13am
My next step will be trying a new coil and ignition module


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-12-2022 at 9:27am
I think I'd be more inclined to look at the rest of the distributor internals for corrosion, rust etc. since the distributors job is to send the spark to individual cylinders and you only seem to have a problem with an individual cylinder.

Not much there besides the shutter wheel and the camshaft position sensor, but worth checking and cleaning the shutter wheel.

I might even try another new cap depending on the quality of the cap you just installed. The Vortec cap is known for misfire issues because of how it's constructed. 

At least you'll have a spare cap if nothing else Wink





Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-12-2022 at 9:36am
Will try and clean up the internals today, I’ve had the same outcome with two caps and rotors. All looked clean in there but will not hurt to double check. Thanks for the suggestions!! We’ll get it eventually


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-12-2022 at 9:43am
Little background on the boat. I bought it from a coed summer camp, they purchased new and never took care of it. Just did bare minimum maintenance to keep it running all these years. Hull was badly oxidized and interior absolutely junk. So sad as it’s the 196 limited. I picked it up fairly cheap and got the gel looking almost new. Ran the three year old gas out of it, tuned it up until this point.


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-12-2022 at 10:54am
Have you considered changing the bad cylinder plug wire with a known good plug wire?  Maybe swap the #7 and #8 and see if the problem goes with the wire.   Rule out the simple things first.

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Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-12-2022 at 10:56am
Yes I have swapped #2 and #4. Tried different wires and plugs as well. Same symptoms


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-12-2022 at 11:36am
Just cleaned wheel and sensor inside the dizzy..no change


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-12-2022 at 1:40pm
Run the engine in the dark and look for spark in that wire going to ground.  A bad wire will give you a light show in the dark.   Not too many things can cause one wire to lose spark.  Just to rule it out I would compression test that cylinder.

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Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-12-2022 at 1:45pm
I will try that. I have tried two different wires. Compression test resulted in 180 psi across all 8


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-12-2022 at 2:35pm
Dang, no easy answers for this one.



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Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-12-2022 at 2:38pm
Right so frustrating


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-12-2022 at 2:50pm
If it thru a code, that would help a ton as to where to look


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-12-2022 at 5:07pm
Just tried new pick up in dizzy, coil, and ignition module. Stumped at this point


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-13-2022 at 3:02am
OK, this has to be a simple fix if you can just find it.

Shade tree test.  Won't hurt anything but might learn something.

Edit update: Fire order on this engine is:  18436572
When you remove the #4 spark plug is it pristine white like brand new or fouled Wet with Gas?
Black from Carbon build up?   The Plug Gap is properly set?   I worked on a Ford 5.4L Truck engine, the owner had it in a shop 4 times because it kept killing Coils.  These are coil on plug engines.  When I inspected it for the source I found a shop put new plugs in it 2 years prior.   After that it needed 4 new Coils, installed one at a time over the 2 year span?  When I removed the spark plugs I found the #8 Spark plug, near impossible to remove in the Ford Truck, I found the previous shop had dinged the plug gap closed when they installed it.  It is very tight and hard to get in there to work but the shop never went back and checked to see why the engine kept reporting miss fires.  They had installed new spark plugs so they never checked them for a possible source of the problem.  With the plugs replaced the coils worked as intended with no more mis fires.  The Ford Computer kept putting that engine into a Limp mode because of the #8 bad plug but the mis fires reported in multiple cylinders not just #8  I have heard when the plug is at zero gap the plug wire voltage can travel through the block and fire other cylinders out of time.

Remove your 4 and 3 spark plug wires.   Take #3 and route it to #4 spark plug.  Leave #4 spark plug wire off for now.  Start the engine and see if #4 is sparking using the #3 wire for a spark source.  It won't make much if any power but it should have a spark you can see all the time.   If this #3 spark source can't make the #4 spark the problem is #4 is grounding the spark plug or the plug is fowled out and dead for some reason.  No spark is jumping the plug gap so your test light can't see it.   The #3 plug is next in the fire order after #4  so a late spark won't cause any problems but might help test and see if #4 could fire with a good known source.



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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-13-2022 at 6:32am
Originally posted by MrMcD MrMcD wrote:

OK, this has to be a simple fix if you can just find it.

Shade tree test.  Won't hurt anything but might learn something.

Fire order on this engine is:  13726548



Umm............Somebody needs to tell you that Steve has a Chevy engine


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-13-2022 at 1:47pm
OK, reboot.  Chevy 350 is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2  so do the same thing with 4 and 3 to see if #4 will fire with a known good wire.  The timing will be late so it won't run right but you could see if a known good wire can make the bad cylinder fire, on the Chevy that would be #3.  It will not cause any problems but it might help diagnose.  I will edit the post to correct for a Nautique with a Chevy.  

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Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-13-2022 at 3:56pm
Have tried a different wire with the same results. Looking like nothing more I can do, I’ll have to call the dealer unfortunately


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-13-2022 at 5:10pm
Test for fire at the cap on #4.   

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Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-13-2022 at 6:29pm
Will do


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-14-2022 at 7:55am
Here's a link to a recent thread.

At least your engine runs Wink

Not knowing what you used for a replacement cap quality wise, maybe it'll make you want to try another new cap

http://www.correctcraftfan.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50739&KW=vortec&title=2003-nautique-excal-engine-issues" rel="nofollow - link

At least you'll have a spare cap if it doesn't make any difference in how it runs.

So when does this thing start firing again as you go up in RPM?

Does it misfire again on the way down passing through 3000 RPM and then clear up again?


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-14-2022 at 8:14am
Interesting read. I could try a different cap. Cylinder #4 loses spark around 2300 and comes back in around 3400.


Posted By: NCH20SKIER
Date Posted: August-14-2022 at 10:31am
I am guessing and hoping (for you) it is a bad cap

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'05 206 Limited
'88 BFN


Posted By: Fl Inboards
Date Posted: August-14-2022 at 2:03pm
Just so you know you cant time these engines traditionally. what is the distributor off set at?
The only way one can set it is with a diacom setup. if memory serves me,  0 off set plus or minus 2* is the setting..


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Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.




1993 Shamrock "fat" 20. 2008 Nautique 196 5.0


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-14-2022 at 2:50pm
Ken the other GM cap issue was only a month ago.   You would think I would remember that solution.   I thought it was interesting that the previous thread on this stated that the owner of that boat had starting installing a new Dist Cap every season to avoid having these failures.   Very bad cap design in my opinion.
Could be a cheap and fast solution for this boat.


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Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-14-2022 at 9:13pm
I’ll try these suggestions tomorrow. Thanks guys for all the ideas!


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-15-2022 at 6:20am
You forgot to answer the question about the misfire when reducing speed (and load) on the engine.Wink

Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

 

So when does this thing start firing again as you go up in RPM?

Does it misfire again on the way down passing through 3000 RPM and then clear up again?


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-15-2022 at 7:52am
Yes the miss is between 24-3400 rpms. Throttling up and slowing down, load or no load give the same results.


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-15-2022 at 8:02am
I do not know what the distributor offset is at. It’s my understanding there is no adjustment on this engine without diag equipment.


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-15-2022 at 11:01am
Same result testing #4 at the cap.


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-15-2022 at 11:53am
Time to install a new cap.

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Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-15-2022 at 11:56am
I will try a third cap today. I just don’t get it


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-15-2022 at 1:10pm
Little bit of an update, engine temp wasn’t getting above 105, I checked the thermostat and was stuck open from impeller pieces. Put new thermostat in, started it, and about 140 degrees it started to run smoother. Went for a ride and the backfire is gone @ 3k but it still has a miss in the same rpm range.


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-15-2022 at 4:57pm
Another new cap, engine surging now, gauge is saying knock sensor. Guess I’ll throw one of those at it.


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-15-2022 at 6:17pm
Double check your spark plug wires.  Odds are a couple wires are crossed/ in the wrong spot.

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Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-15-2022 at 6:25pm
All wires are where they belong, simple on this setup


Posted By: Fl Inboards
Date Posted: August-15-2022 at 6:31pm
If you dont check the cam offset you are chasing your tail until you know that it is correct or distributor has not moved.
I have seen this before..
and yes you need diacom to check cam off set it.
good luck



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Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.




1993 Shamrock "fat" 20. 2008 Nautique 196 5.0


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-15-2022 at 6:34pm
Okay is there anything at all I can do with the dizzy without diag equipment?


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-16-2022 at 7:45am
Speaking of dizzy..............that's me.

I think a good recap of the problem and what's been done is in order here, since however many days and posts later, the word "backfire" just showed up Wink

Now we have no fire, misfire and backfire all being mentioned.

Your engine should be running at 160 plus degrees, otherwise the computer thinks it's still warming up and your fuel mixture is gonna be rich. The standard thermostat in that is a 160 degree thermostat.

It'll probably run better than is now does with your 140ish temperature, will it fix this mystery firing issue? probably not but you won't lose anything by getting temperature where it should be.


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-16-2022 at 7:55am
I’ve never had the misfortune of chasing a problem like this. Your right, forever post with many different problems.


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-16-2022 at 8:05am
As it stands now, I put a third cap on it. That helped with the no spark, miss to #4 cylinder. Also changed thermostat bringing engine up to normal running temp. So now it is definitely running better, but is surging and saying knock sensor on the dash. I’m running non ethanol 91 octane all fresh. So I will look at that sensor today.


Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: August-16-2022 at 10:39am
Do you have a knock sensor in place? It originally would have been in the water drain hole on the starboard side. They get removed for winterization, if removed and replaced with a pipe plug that could lead to the error.

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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001
1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-16-2022 at 11:03am
Yes it is in there.


Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: August-16-2022 at 1:13pm
Next step would be to make sure it is working- no breaks in the wiring and the threads are complicating the circuit (no excessive Teflon tape).   

if you have reliable spark now you might want to move onto cleaning the fuel injectors.

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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001
1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-16-2022 at 1:23pm
Okay, it has no tape on the threads. Pulled the wire off and all looks good. Running non ethanol 91 and seafoam thru it


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-16-2022 at 1:49pm
Is it worth trying a new knock sensor? Or is that just a stored code?


Posted By: Gary S
Date Posted: August-16-2022 at 2:45pm
If you suspect a injector you could just move it to another cylinder and see if it follows. 

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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1711&sort=&pagenum=1&yrstart=1966&yrend=1970" rel="nofollow - 69 Mustang HM SS
95 Nautique Super Sport


Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: August-16-2022 at 4:14pm
Knock sensors are relatively cheap - you could however test it before you replace it. I didn’t do anything other than replace my knock sensor to make the code go away. If the boat has been sitting cleaning the injectors- maybe replacing the orings and filters is a decent idea and not much more difficult than swapping them around.


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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001
1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-16-2022 at 6:45pm
Last time I wanted to know if a knock sensor was working, I hit one of the heads with a hammer and watched the timing to see if it retarded about 8 degrees or so. Wink


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-26-2022 at 8:56pm
Still chasing this problem. Put a new knock sensor in with no change. Been running non ethanol and seafoam thru it, changed FCC filter. Tried new wires, guess it’s time to drive it on the trailer and bring to New England Correct Craft.


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-29-2022 at 7:51pm
So crazy ending to painfully long journey. One of the new spark plugs was defective. Not fouled or broke, just for some reason not firing. So between two bad dist caps and a defective plug she’s all up and ripping to 5100 rpm’s again. Thanks all for the suggestions and help.


Posted By: MrMcD
Date Posted: August-29-2022 at 8:01pm
Glad you figured it out.  

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Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-30-2022 at 6:07am
So did you just decide to swap plugs for some reason or did it make the trip to the dealer for a plug swap?




Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-30-2022 at 6:20am
I scratched my head for days, sitting looking at this engine thinking wtf else could possibly be wrong? I’ve swapped everything to do with ignition, three caps, two sets of wires, coil, dist pick up, and fcc filter. Decided to try another set of plugs before pulling it out. Only thing I haven’t tried twice! Sure enough that was it. Misfire was gone and boat pulled to 5100 rpm’s. Could only get 4200 before. Something so simple all along….


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-30-2022 at 6:47am
Originally posted by KENO KENO wrote:

If it runs great at WOT, does that mean the cylinder starts firing again sometime above 3000 rpm or it's a great running V7 engine at full throttle?

Has it done this since you got the boat?, it sounds like it's new to you



So i guess back at the beginning it really was a great running V7 after all Wink

You should go out right now and buy 4 lottery tickets in honor of your #4 cylinder.

And......... glad it's fixed


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-30-2022 at 6:54am
Yes it was a great V7…unfortunately I had just bought the boat and had nothing to go by as far as how it should run. Coming from a simple to work on 1984 2001.


Posted By: KENO
Date Posted: August-30-2022 at 7:29am
Well, "ya done good" ...............and saved a bunch of money not making that short tow to NECC   Wink




Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: August-30-2022 at 9:37am
Thanks KENO👍


Posted By: bfosbenner
Date Posted: May-29-2023 at 10:07pm
So my story is similar except in 2021 my  196 with 2,000 hours ..... misfire under load at 28-30 mph, slight misfire at 32 and gone at faster speeds.  
 I changed cap, rotor, coil, cranks sensor, new distributor with cap and rotor,  map sensor, spark plugs, wires,  cylinder heads (one water jacket leaked anyway. Fuel Injectors,  alternator (possible ac ripple to ecm, seemed to get better if unplugged )  Tried another boats ECM,  My next step was to check timing chain backlash and when I pulled the cap it was all burnt up.  So I got a new AC Delco cap and rotor and installed on my original distributor.  All was ok!!! Great,  fast forward  to 5/28/23  Misfire came back exactly the same. Tried Accel cap, no change.  Cam retard is 0.  Ill try an new AC Delco again this week.




Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: May-29-2023 at 10:26pm
Sounds like my headache, chasing everything! I had put new plugs in mine and kept saying it can’t be the plugs, they are new plugs. Low and behold try another set of plugs and problem gone. In my 25 years of working on engines that was the first bad new plug for me.


Posted By: bfosbenner
Date Posted: May-31-2023 at 11:55pm
Update,  New GM cap and rotor did not fix. I also have stuck thermostat and engine is running cold. Part is on order.......


Posted By: bfosbenner
Date Posted: June-03-2023 at 9:00pm
Update,  New thermostat solved the problem!!!


Posted By: steve600
Date Posted: June-03-2023 at 9:09pm
Awesome…,chased your tail for a while but you got it!!


Posted By: bfosbenner
Date Posted: June-04-2023 at 9:42pm
I'm still not sure what the cold engine temp reading is doing to cause the misfire.  Maybe a bit too much fuel.  With no O2 sensor I cant really tell.


Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-05-2023 at 12:02am
It’s not a closed loop system so spark and fuel levels are fixed in the tune - with the temp not right the tune isnt right.   My excal will misfire until warmed up when the water is really cold so seems reasonable it might not be real happy with a thermostat stuck open.

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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001
1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video


Posted By: bfosbenner
Date Posted: June-10-2023 at 9:42pm
My question is what is actually happening?  Is it running  rich with the extra fuel building up somewhere causing the misfire?


Posted By: JoeinNY
Date Posted: June-10-2023 at 10:41pm
I don’t think it knows the temp and adds fuel - I think more likely it needs more fuel because of the air density and the cold chamber. Just a guess though- I just know that it will
Misfire spring or fall until warmed up - if your thermostat isn’t working it won’t warm up and could keep misfiring

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http://www.correctcraftfan.com/diaries/details.asp?ID=1477 - 1983 Ski Nautique 2001
1967 Mustang 302 "Decoy"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5MkcBXBBs - Holeshot Video


Posted By: 67 ski nat
Date Posted: June-11-2023 at 5:10pm
Faulty parts are becoming more common. Probably non usa manufacturing
I watch tooo Much roadkill TV etc. they had two new distributors out of box bad. Stumped ‘‘em for a bit but the dulstich had several spares to try everything. 2 bad out of box from Orielly or such
Are you going to rebuild all or limp along with coed stuff.
As budget allows



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